Okay, fair enough James...

IMHO, and it is not the MB way...because frankly, once she dragged your kids into that environment, the MB way no longer was the issue for me....

I would tell her in no uncertain terms...and mean it...that she has three days to get her and the children home if she ever wants to have a relationship with you.

I would NEVER set foot in that house again....

If she chooses to not come home...cut her off from your health insurance, get aggressive with your courts for their ridiculous decision (can you appeal the already taken actions to a higher court??)...

But James..like I said...you gave away many of the things you could have done...so in a way, you are behind the 8 ball. I would just say that while I think your approach has been admirable in many ways...you have grown as a person...that you need to start taking this abuse of your family a bit more to heart. You were not aggressive enough before by allowing her to take your kids in the first place. Now you are baking her a pie, calling her babe...etc....that is just crazy in my opinion (sorry). She has dragged your kids into what amounts to her brothel and I would be damned if I would be waiting for her relationship with her boy toy to crumble. So, what..you take her back then because she has nowhere else to go???

The threat of divorce tomorrow might be the thing that wakes her happy [censored] up. If not...James...divorcing someone that would treat her children like she has hers would be the best thing. If you are not far apart on what you still need to agree on, I would say move your position and get things rolling.

If I was as passive as you have been, my son would still be living in a home with a mom that has men running in and out instead of home here with me. IMHO, the Harley's plan is the best...but when kids are being used and abused...all bets are off. That is the first priority in every situation.

and James...FTR...I am giving you my thoughts...obviously how you handle your family is up to you. I know you are doing what you perceive to be best.

I can see the smoke rising from her world crumbling around her.

Or, since we're speculating, she's reaching out to her family because she's always assumed that given no alternative they'll eventually come around to her way of thinking and she figures it's time for them to hold their noses and jump aboard. Which if they have the usual familial loyalty they will, if not now then soon enough.

The point is not to be pessimistic (actually if you ask me the vision of her returning to you is the pessimist's view). The point is, if we're going to mind-read and speculate, it makes sense to be unbiased in our interpretations.

Now, there is some value in having hope and keeping the high road while you fight to keep your family together. There's a nobility in it, and it is the more obviously ethical approach. But beware, it is easily romanticized.

Remember something. What you're doing now, keeping the door open, will have a cost for you. Every day of it costs you a little. There is no question. Because of your focus on the goal you aren't sensitive to it now but something is happening to you. No matter what happens you will have a tougher battle against hatred and resentment for every day you hold the door open. Don't think you're above it and don't assume you can keep it up indefinitely. One thing's for sure, most men are capable of keeping it up, and many attempt to, for longer than is healthy for them OR their families.

I'm not telling you to give up.

But there are millions of beautiful, bright, engaging women in the world. And knowing some of them could also be good for your children.

GC

Hi, I just wanted to say Bravo on your self control...You are doing an amazing job of keeping it together...

You have awesome support...keep up the great work!

(((J))))

I agree about the child situation, it's terrible for him to witness what goes on in that house (and THAT's easy to speculate on). But the Court has ruled. She won that round. So what recourse does James have in that regard? Appeal? There's only a small window of time for an appeal and I'm betting that deadline's already passed. The status quo is now in effect. The status quo is what the Judge will base future decisions on unless something dramatic happens that places that child in physical danger. Not likely at this point. We suggested a long time ago that CPS be called to investigate the living arrangments. Where does that child sleep and with whom?

What's done is done. James, whether you're going for divorce... or reconcilliation... legally you should be doing everything you can to protect and fight for your son. Otherwise, if you end up divorced, I see you only getting standard visitation. You answered interrogatories awhile back, right? Did your attorney serve them on her as well? If he hasn't, that's a GREAT instrument when it comes to custody issues.

Thanks to all of you for your input.. I appreciate every bit of it.

I'm not sure how much more aggressively I can persue my son at this point, and I don't know what good ultimatums are going to do giving her 3 days to get home or it's done and done for good.. it's a bluff.. my door won't close in 3 days.. and even if it does, it changes nothing at this point.

We have a mediator right now.. the court is going to want to settle the property stuff soon I imagine. I'm still waiting on my lawyer to get back to me on the custody evaluation.. I get the impression everyone is holding station until she's in her new house.. not sure exactly what the hold up is there, but I'm hoping to find out this week.

Interrogatories have been served to her.. but we have gotten nothing back yet as far as I know.

Apparently Wonderboy has emailed SIL.. she's not impressed..

FIL called tonight.. and DSD rang his house phone while he was talking to me. He said she sounded very sad/down and just told him 'I don't want to talk to James anymore'.. Dad said 'I understand, and I know your mommie is telling you what to say.. we'll get together and talk about it soon, just you and I.' DSD apparently said she was not.. but c'mon.. this is beyond rediculous.. if that's how DSD truly feels, then I'm sure it's been worked into her..

This is so stupid.. all of this..

That part about DSD pisses me off to no end. Arghhh I don't know your WW from a hole in the ground but that's some terrible behavior.

The kids should never enter into it. Shame on your wayward for doing so.

Greycloud .... as usual you are on the money. Reality needs to rule the day and sometimes us everly optomistic folks and cheerleaders need to take a step back and see what's best for us rather than thinking in terms of a team or unit.

I'm cheering on James becoming the best father he can be and growing stronger and stronger each day.

We all wish for what we think is best, but perhaps a reconciliation isn't the best, but James wants it so I'll continue to pray for his family and lend support when I can.

James:

You did what you could, re fighting for your family and getting custody argued 2 the extent you can.

I say don't "fight for her" at all anymore. She won't let you anyway. Your best move will be 2 keep being the good guy here. Let her make "bad guys" out of her family if she can. gc is probably right and in most cases the blood thicker than water principle kicks in and they try 2 make life with her amicable as possible by appeasing her so they can see their grandkids. Be prepared for that possibility.

You may be getting close 2 needing 2 go 2 plan B. I'd be working on the intermediary angle as soon as possible in case plan B is soon. Is it possible that someone from her family could be your intermediary? It might solidify the family sitch in it's present arrangement if you do it before they cave in 2 your W's silliness, if they do that is.

I'll say it again (assuming I said it before): If your W ever comes back, it'll be more meaningful if she does it because she's augured in and left a smoking hole in the ground, and realizes what an a$$ she's been. Not because you pressured her 2 do something she can claim she "knew" wasn't best.

Stick with the MB methods here.

-ol' 2long

You guys are great, and I appreciate all the support and advice.

I'm not discounting a bit of it, and I know from the outside looking in things are grim.

I'm not going to give up now.. especially with the in-laws joining the fight. I spent a good amount of time last night on the phone with FIL and SIL.. I even spent 20 minutes on the phone last night talking about the kids with WW.

I LB'd once and got hung up on in the first 5 minutes, but the conversation resumed within minutes and went pretty well.. concerning mostly DSD for the remainder. Her excuses are crumbling.. I can tell just by listening to her how conflicted she is.. and I think the situation with her family is bringing this to a head.

I'm not giving up now.. my family needs me now, and thankfully I've built up the strength to continue to pray for her, for my kids, for my in-laws.. I'm actually able to be there for -them- now rather than needing them to be there for me.

I'm doing well folks, emotionally I'm a little shaken by all that is going on, but I know that it's getting to WW as well. Now is a critical time.. I'm not entirely sure what to do next, but I'm praying about it and will let God lead me.

James,

Just want to say stay strong!

{James & kids }

Thanks for the admiration, but I'm not doing anything admirable here. Like the servants blessed by their master with a feast at the end of the day, they look to their LORD with gratitude for His blessing, for they have not gone above and beyond their call.. they have only done what they ought to have done.

James, I've only read a portion of your sitch. However I did see where you posted the above. Gratitude! Ahh if we all remember that.

Blessings to you and your family, I pray that God will answer your prayers.

James,

I am so praying for you and your family. G-d is with you and cheering you on as well.

He'll tell you what to do next. We just need to LISTEN.

SG

Thinking of you man! Wishing you the best!

Cheering you on and offering a shoulder...

take care and have a good day!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

James - I am still afraid you are setting yourself up for heartache. It breaks my heart to hear of the latest stunt with DSD. That is just sick. Is there anyway her grandparents would consider trying to get her away from her mother? Someone needs to.

I understand your need to have your family back together..belive me I do. But, James, what is best for you? What is best for DD? Is this really the female example you want for her? I sure wouldn't.

You know I will stand behind you in whatever you decide to do..even if I feel it is wrong. And you know that I think you trying to get her back is not the best thing for you. But, what are you doing this for? Is it really to get this woman back? Or is it simply to keep a promise?

I commend you for letting God guide you, but don't miss the signs of him saying to let go either.

If she comes back..she will do this again. IMHO as soon as the excitment wears off with WB, she will look to you again. Because you will be new to her again. It's the thrill she wants...not the man. Again just speculation.

Be careful, my friend. If she does come home, never let that boy out of your sight for longer than you have to. He doesn't leave you again. I guess I am just mean enough to take her back for awhile, wait for her to mess up again, and then kick her out just to get your son back. Mean, I know, but it would work. Only if you remain married of course.

I give you points for hanging on this long. If my H had done this to our kids..I would have never taken him back. Children are not weapons..they are children. To be protected and loved above all things.

I agree with MEDC that you need to stop being nice and do whatever you need to do to get your boy back. But as always it is up to you. I will be in your corner either way.

It is wonderful that your IL's are taking a stand. I hope they keep it up.

Wow.. I really never expected to get so many messages telling me to give up on my marriage here at Marriage Builders.

I know things seem dismal.. and yeah, WW has been personified as evil incarnate.. I know, and yes I'm still fighting for my son. Nothing has changed there.

My dear friends.. as upset as I am over what is going on right now... I'm doing pretty good and not letting it affect me too much. I have moments, but they pass a lot quicker now. As for my anger? I don't think anger is going to solve this problem.

Plan B? I'm not there yet.. Looking objectively as possible here, Plan A is where I need to be.. -especially- as the IL's are waging their fight. It does a few things for me.. allows me the self respect of knowing that I'm continuing to display consistent behavior and avoid (with the 1 exception last night) LBing.. and she's in some serious conflict right now.

Yep.. as MEDC says, they are circling the wagons.. Wonderboy is emailing SIL, getting responses to back off, and then replying to them... FIL is disgusted with WW's behavior and treatment of the children, and has told me several times how much he admires my strength and willpower in all of this.. Plan A is having the unintended side effect of solidifying my allies in this.. and at the same time I'm doing -great- at bettering myself.. and I'm getting closer to God.

At the end of all this.. even if I never get to Plan B.. and end up at the end of the D-line.. I'm going to have peace in my life, I know it. I know there will be times I'm triggered into anger, depression, resentment.. but I accept right now the reality of what is going on.. I'm in the process of getting a divorce. It's not something I want.. not for me, not for my wife, and certainly not for our children. The IL's fight really is their own.. it isn't mine.. and she's only worsening her position with them. SIL and Dad, and WW have in the past been possibly the closest three people I've ever known.. I -know- this is making trouble in Affairsville.. with Wonderboy now responding I have to imagine it's been making trouble for him too... it's crumbling.. even if they don't know it yet.

I'm sticking to my guns folks, I think I've got a good shot at making this work. I have faith that the Lord is at work here.. even though I cannot see everything. I'm going to keep my trust where it belongs.. Deliverance is coming, whether it is for me alone, or for us together.. I am ready to accept God's will.

I'm really in a pretty good headspace.. yeah, I've got some anxiety about the situation because I worry for FIL, SIL and of course how it may impact my sitch.. but at the same time, I have an opportunity to be there for them now, and support them any way I can.

I know the concern now is that I'm setting myself up for a big dissapointment.. and I understand that concern. The truth is that I don't -expect- for this to change my situation.. it's hers that is changing.. for the good or for worse.. time will tell.

God's making deposits for me, keeping her LB balance at a tolerable level.. I don't see Plan B going forward until after the custody situation is settled.. which probably means after the D. But I'm in Plan A for now.. and feeling pretty solid in it.

I'm keeping an eye out for the signs to move on Guided.. but so far God is being pretty consistent with his messages.. even when I'd expect more Christmas-like things.

Keeping my focus on the next step ahead of me.. so far that's all the farther God is shining his light.

James..as you say, this might work out. But at what cost? This is not a marriage at all costs site. You would do better, IMHO, to get divorced and find a good woman...so that your children will have at least one parent modeling for them what a good, healthy relationship looks like. Take that woman back and you will be taking back into your life a woman that stole your children from you and let them move in with her f-toy and her family.
See, I think you are a big boy and I don't worry about you being able to handle the disappointment...what I am afraid of is that you truly value YOU so little that you would accept back into your life a woman that would abuse her children and you in ways that are very rarely seen...even on these boards. Like I said before, if your wife had left without your son...different ballgame....but what she did is in my eyes, is beyond cruel and abusive.

I have also seen many, many people on these boards use God's will as a reason to stay in horrible situations. It isn't God. It is the fear of letting go of an abuser. I will suggest, as I did four months ago, your situation calls for a stronger response. You were afraid to do it then and it has cost you a lot of time with your son. I hope you are not making the same mistake again.

If things are not good in affairland, your wife may very well just need a little push to get her out of there. She knows you have been hanging on and that the option to come home is open....so, right now...she is most likely just going with what is easiest....staying put. Let her know the window of opportunity to come home will close VERY quickly and she will be forced to make a decision at a time when things are not so rosy over there.

I don't believe in saving ANY marriage at all costs.

Yours sounds like it's over. I'm sorry.

You've got a 50/50 chance that pressure from her family will help make her break up with her boytoy. Sometimes it pushes them closer together.

I've read your whole story, and I feel for you. If I were your ww, I'd probably feel sorry for you, but I wouldn't have respect.

If it were me, it would be most effective for you to have gotten on with your life, if you seemed strong and capable, and it kind of felt like I was getting left behind. Don't be there every time she needs you. Don't always answer the phone right away. If you need to arrange child switching, don't automatically throw the 'meet me for dinner' sentence in there. It sounds pushy, and a bit needy.

I'm sorry Jamesus, and I don't know of any other way to say this, but you seem a bit desperate, and that's a turnoff - for any woman. Just my opinion, pay no attention if you like.

edited...apparently i need some sleep, i didn't read right!
I'm sorry!


James, I was one of those people trying to do God's will and I was extremely fearful...if this is your choice, I just want to say that life is SOOOO much better! It DONE get better!

Supporting you in your decisions!

(((J))))

That is what I was trying to say. Maybe I should have said I don't believe in saving *every* marriage.

Sometimes it's just time to go...

I agree with Sushi that NO marriage is worthy of being saved at all costs. I would suggest that Sushis post would make it clear that batterers and other circumstances should lead to divorce. Using any, all, every or never are actually words that to me point out the strength of ones convictions.