I feel for ya - pretty rough situation. Take comfort that at least there is one person (you) who can comfort your DS. I have to wonder what comfort DS is getting from the WW. Can you share this with your IL's? This is their grand child as well.

Your WW is a cruel mother to do this to her children. I still don't get it that the judge thinks DS is in a better place living with strangers than in his own home. Do not understand that logic. You have a long battle and may have to wait some time for Wonderboy to lose his luster with WW.

Take care & keep the faith - remember you are someone's Hero - your children including DSD.

Oh, James & DS {{{HUGS}} to you all.

I know of what you speak and it rips your heart out. You did well. Just reassure him it's not about him. He is good, special, wonderful, perfect. I'm sitting here remembering similar conversations with DD and even DSS, just slightly different because of age, but content is still the same.

Glad you went and did something 'fun'! Underdog! Cool!

I've kind of let the last couple of days go by on your thread, as you have had some great folks chiming in. Now that it's a bit quiet, I want to speak to your Plan A efforts.

The one thing that I really keyed on recently and was the reason for my asking WHICH plan are you in, was because of this conversation you had with WW.

Let me see if I can give a few Plan A type hints -


Her: Hello?
Me: Hey there.. how's it going?
Her: Uh.. pretty good, thanks.

Me: Is DSD or DS around?

Instead of instantly aksing for the kids here, you had a bit of an opening to see if she might chat a bit.

Example - James "Glad to hear it. Hey, did you see that great picture DS made a pre-school yesterday? I think he has your artistic ability!"


Her: DS is crashed out, and DSD is in the middle of eating.

Me: Oh I see..
Example James "Poor Little DS, he just goes and goes, doesn't he? What was he up to today?"


Me: No.. no don't wake him up if he's already out.. just have him call me if he wakes up before you take him to bed, or at least give him a big hug and a kiss for me, and tell him I love him.. please do the same for DSD.


Her: Mmmhmm (seemed kind of upbeat)

Example - James "You know how I love those hugs and kisses!"


Me: Ok.. well, I'll assume you got my response to your email.

Her: Yeah, I got it.

Me: I've got the papers drawn up for us to look at on Sunday, just wanted to let you know.

Example - James "I have the papers for us to look at. How about we all get together for lunch, we can take the kids to the park and let them play while we talk. How about 12:30 at McDonalds?"

Her: Ok, no problem.

Me: Ok.. well I'll see you Sunday, Bye.
Example James "Sweet dreams"

Do you see the little differences here?

Plan A is opening up the opportunities. Asking her to join in on FAMILY things, whether it be conversation about the kids or doing things as a family. If you are really trying to Plan A, you have to try to take advantage of every little opening or create them when you can!

Hmm.. now that's going to take a little doing. Everything has been so standoffish lately..

I'll see if I can't do better. I had a good opportunity today actually, and I didn't do -too- bad but I can see where I missed the chance to push a little further.

She sounded pretty hoarse on the phone today when she called to talk to DS.. so I asked her about it and if she was feeling ok. She said she was, just that she was talking so much yesterday that she lost her voice and it was just now coming back. I didn't press here, and maybe I could have gotten her talking about her day.. maybe..

I did tell her to take care of herself and I hope she was better tomorrow. Tried showing compassion and care at least.

She's more apt to talk to me on the phone lately, and chit chat during the exchanges.

I'm thinking since she gave me until Noon with DS for Thanksgiving whether or not I should have a Pumpkin Pie for her.. she loves them, and they're innocuous enough as a holiday favorite that it might be a nice gesture.

What kind of bothers me is that she's avoiding her family this year for Thanksgiving.. I know from talking with FIL that SIL mentioned holiday plans to her and is a little upset that she didn't bite. I offered via a reply to an email SIL sent today that I'd be happy to do up breakfast on Thanksgiving, or take the day off and make a Wednesday night Thanksgiving dinner for the in-laws. Not holding my breath that the IL's will take me up on it.. and no RWinger I haven't mentioned to them about my conversation with DS tonight. I may though.. but right now I'm keeping my interactions with the IL's at minimum, just keeping in touch and not pressuring them.

If I don't hear from them this week I'll give them a call or send an email on Thursday wishing them a happy Thanksgiving.

Just put my little man down for the nite, he really does go and go until he just crashes.. typical 3 year old.

Apart from the 'best friends' thing today we had a really great time. Tomorrow AM we're going to do Mass, and there's a little thing at the church afterwards.. SIL's email was about this actually.. WW was CC'd on it. Heh.. I sometimes wonder how it sits with her that SIL has me on her send-to list for these kinds of things.. wonder if it really registers.

I'll try and work on recognizing those openings and taking them.. Stick with me here folks, I have a feeling I'm going to need a lot of help with these sorts of things.

Well.. the exchange didn't leave too many Plan A opportunities.

DS had crashed out on the couch about 10 minutes before WW arrived, so I waved her in the house so that she could sign the little paper I drafted up about the Thanksgiving agreement.

WW came in, and honestly folks... this radient and beautiful woman I married (not shallow here, she's super smart too, even if she isn't acting like it now).. looks like she's been hit by a truck.. I don't think the move from city water to well water has been good for her, and it doesn't look like she's much been taking care of herself. Her skin has always been sensitive, but I've never seen her broken out like this before. Her voice seemed to have come back though.. but there was no 'light' in her personality yesterday.

Wonderboy waited in the van in the driveway while WW came into the house to round up DS. She and I worked together to get his jacket on and she held him while I gave him a hug and a kiss goodbye.

I asked her how she was doing, and even tried to use Bugs' recommended 'Oh he just goes and goes until he runs out of gas' line.. didn't open any communication, but I did see her smile just a little bit when I said it.

Baby steps right? But man.. it just shocked me with how well she -usually- takes care of herself that she'd show up like that..

She did say though when I asked about the house that they got it.. not sure if the deal is final or not, I didn't press, just told her congratulations and smiled.

Ahh well, went out and hung out with some friends to watch the cartoons on Fox after the football game. Was a pretty good evening, though I'm a little tired this morning. Looking forward to Wednesday already <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think you should have the pie for her with a sweet note. Don't go overboard or beg her to come back but I think that's a great idea for Plan A.

Perhaps some of the others could weigh in.

Have you told her that you're sorry for not listening to her when she said she was unhappy? Have you told her that you can forgive her no matter what?

I may be repeating myself here so forgive me if I am.

I've told her several times that I was sorry for not acting more on the conversation back in January.. but it's been tainted by my admission that I thought of it as depression, without really giving consideration to the cause. I've owned that, but I don't think it ever got through.. or if it did, it was responded to with an 'It's too late for that' response.

I've told her that I can forgive this.. but again, I'm not sure it's sunk in.. and she certainly doesn't seem to believe she's done anything requiring forgiveness.

I think the pie is the plan for Thanksgiving.. though I'm not sure what I'd put in a note. Maybe something like 'Well at least we won't have to fight over the last piece of this one.' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />... I dunno..

I wasn't considering adding a note.. any ideas?

James,

A pie definately says Plan A! The note,, perhaps saying something about what you are Thankful for???

A pie it is.. I'll try and come up with something. If nothing else I can thank her for the time I got to spend with my son on Thanksgiving.. I am thankful for that.

I got an email from WW last night.. just read it this morning. Apparently I called her 'baby' on the voicemail I left.. heh, I didn't even realize it. I was actually just calling as I do every night to speak with DS.. left a message to that effect and then called the house phone where she answered, I told her hey, and asked how she was.. she said she was fine and then handed the phone to DS.

Yay rah Plan A... *sigh* Plan A can be frustrating.

Here's what she sent:


BH,

I just got the voicemail that you left on my phone. Please do not call me baby. I am not now nor will I ever be your baby. This isn't the first time you have left a message like that. The first time, I left it alone and ignored it. Now I am just asking you to please stop. In light of the fact that we are getting divorced, I think that it is highly inappropriate.

WW



I could go on for -hours- about what I think is highly inappropriate on -her- end.

Not planning on sending a response at this time.

I would skip the "baby" comment as well as the pie. Both are very bad ideas in my mind.

James,

For me, if you are in Plan A, those things are appropriate. If you are not, then they are not. Your call.

The email says to me that Wonderboy probably heard the message, thus the need for WW to 'warn you off'. She's obviously going along with it, as she is deep, deep in Affairland.

I agree, no response is necessary. However, in Plan A, the next time I left a message, I'd use Sweetie, or Honey. She is uncomfortable. Oh well. As you say, who is she really to comment on what is "appropriate"?! LOL!

Oh.. I'll be more mindful of the 'baby' thing in the future.

I think though that the pie is a go, still not sure about what I'm going to put in a note though.

With this email though, I just don't get it.. why does she feel like she has to make an issue of -this-.. any excuse to reach out and twist the knife a little bit?

Actually I think I'll revert back to what she was before she was 'baby' in our loving vernacular.

I'll just go back to the special way I used to say 'Hey you' to her.. don't think we can find too much inappropriate about that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Heh.. you know, weeks ago I'd probably have been a mess about this kind of thing.. the whole 'I'm not now and will never be your baby' would have really stung.. now I think it's kind of amusing that she thought enough of it to make an issue, and -then- decided she'd try to tell me what was and wasn't appropriate.

continuing in these behaviors would be a LB in my mind...much the same as Lilsis's roses and hugs became a LB...great intentions...but not received well.

James,

I thought you were going to back wayyyyy off? And just be bright and shining when you did have contact with the child exchange?

Stop with any gifts, messages, terms of endearment. At this point every thing along those lines will be major love busters.

Do NOT pursue her in any way shape or form. Start distancing yourself by showing you are living and loving life.

Telling her you can forgive her of this or of anything at this point is a big mistake as well.

She has just ripped your, your son's, and your step-daughters world apart and is divorcing you.

I am not saying it is time for Plan B because in essense Plan B is about moving on, and you have said you do not wish to do that yet.

However, telling someone who is doing what she is doing that she is still baby to you, that you have/can/will forgive her for anything...is extremely unatractive behavior. It is desperate and doormatish.

Sorry for the 2X4, but I think you are handling this wrong. It is not the Plan A behavior that I was referring to anyway.

Good Plan A behavior while someone is sueing you for custody, withholding the step child you had taken care of and loved, AND divorcing you is not giving them pies and calling them baby.


She is not cake-eating, remember. She has made a decision already.

You can shine and be your glorious self, regardless of what crappy chit she has left you, but not in this way. It won't work. It will push her further away.

Ok... I'm confused then.

How exactly am I supposed to Plan A with her out of the house, and actively engaged in the A?

I'm going to respect her request from the email.. honestly I didn't even realize I called her baby on the message... habit I guess.

I don't want to LB at this point for sure.. I've done enough damage in that department.

Just not sure what to do at this point.

Plan A is all about you, not her. The only difference with her being out of the house, is that she will have less opportunity to witness it, but with a child you will still have interactions. Much better than no chance for interaction at all.

Show her that you are just fine, even thriving.

No LB's or DJ's...but for heavens sake don't act like everthing she has done is just fine and dandy, and she is the queen of sheba. THAT WOULD BE A LIE, and waywards know they are not behaving worthy of that position.

You have a chance that down the road, in a couple of months, maybe a year or two, once her R with the child/manthing falls apart, that whe will notice you again.

It is a LONG process, with no guarantees.

Your case is one of the hard ones, because she left. No cake eating, no waffling.

Do you see the difference?

My XBF got my attention because of his unshaking self-respect, and desire to live a GREAT life with or without me. Unfortunately for me, it was too late by the time I noticed him again.

BUT with a child, chances are she will look at you again...but not if you continue in this manner.

It is desperation that would keep someone hanging on the line in face of what whe is doing.

This is not a thirty year marriage, this is a relative short-term marriage with a walk away spouse who is operating from her usual modis operandis.

I'm sorry James, because I know how devestated you already are. But denial is going to get you to a place far worse.

Things take time. That is why Harley says the greatest threat is the BS losing his love...this is the greatest threat in the long term. They put up with too much, try too hard and then when the wayward does want to come back, they don't want them anymore. All the love is gone.

I don't think I'm really in denial about what's going on here. I know I have to live my life as if she isn't coming back, and do things that make me happy. I'm not having any problem doing that these days, and I know that I'm going to be just fine even if she doesn't come home.

Doesn't change the fact that I love her, care about her, and I hate to see her doing this to herself, doing this to our kids, and watching everything she and I worked so hard together to build just sink into nothing.

I'm not hanging on out of desperation.. I know that there are plenty of opportunities out there, probably even better opportunities for me to find someone who -wants- to be with me, and will love me as much as I love them.

I'm pretty much over the hurt and realization that she does not want to be a part of this marriage anymore. I've moved into acceptance of that. I do however want to do everything that I can do to try and salvage a family and marriage that I committed to, and rebuilt my entire life around. That's why I want to do the best Plan A I can.

Now comes the question, is Plan A -only- for waywards who are waffling? If so, once the A ends, what do they have to look back on other than the revision of the M that they've convinced themselves to believe during the A?

I guess Plan A in my case -is- to move on.. just be happy in the face of everything. If I express my displeasure at the inappropriate behavior, and the destruction of my family that's LBing right? So is trying to be kind and loving to her.. so if I'm just going to pretty much be happy old me.. what's the difference between that and Plan B other than the letter?

Plan A is about identifying any ways you may have failed as a husband, how you could have done better and addressing those shortcomings.

Plan A is about being an attractive choice.

WHILE exposing the affair at the same time.

AND avoiding all LB's and DJ's.

Even though the spouse has left and filed for a divorce, the new R is still an affair. Affairs by their very nature do not last. If you are not LBing, or DJ'g, if in fact you are busy enjoying your life, the affair partners will begin to DJ each other. You will not be an easy scapegoat for them. The tables will turn back on themselves and at the same time the addictive brain chemicals start to wain as well.

The WS will also begin to see how you behaved during this time and will not be able to keep up the false rationalizations.



It is not an LB to speak the truth, if done without DJ's...calling names, nastiness, sarcasm, etc.

Learn to babble back by reading Orchid's various threads on the subject, if you need to.

The difference between being a lighthouse, and a Plan B is that in Plan B, out of protection to your self and your own love bank you have NO further contact with the WS. All interaction regarding divorce and child rearing is done through an intermediary. But with a PB letter, you give a road map back to your door, if the WS should decide that they want to ever come back.

Thanks Weaver.. you're keeping my head in the right place.

So I guess that means no pie.. no letter.. and I've got somewhere to be on Thanksgiving without her.

I think I've come a long way in identifying and for the most part addressing the things I was doing wrong as a husband.. but I'm not sure how to -show- those things with the limited interaction we have. I think I'm doing it in subtle ways.. like normally I would have pushed back about the 'document' she wanted regarding the adjustment to the Thanksgiving holiday schedule, making her do it so that it would be done the way she wanted.. instead I just did it.

Normally I would have called bull$hite on the Monday I had off work that she didn't let me go pick up DS, but I accepted her decision without putting up any more of a fight than to say that I'd be happy to have him to her whenever/wherever it was convenient for her schedule.

Normally I'd respond to emails like this and engage her in a fight about what was -really- appropriate... the immediate reverse babble that sprung to mind was:

You know, you're absolutely right, we are getting a divorce.. there's no reason we can't act appropriately while we're still married.



Think I'm just going to stick to not answering the email.

I should have said it is not an LB to speak YOUR truth, and not used the words "THE truth"... one is a DJ and the other is not.

Your truth are things to the effect of "this is not what I want" "I think we could have a good marriage" "I'm sorry you feel that way".



One of things about change is that we don't really have to "show" them, they just become the way we are and other notice. She will notice James, it takes time but if the changes are for real it will become who you are. You are fortunate as you will have contact with her for the next 15 years at aleast (or unfortunate depending on how you look at it, and how you perceive it once you have made a personal recovery).

I'm not sure about the response to the email. I think what you said is good. Saying nothing may be kind of like not "hearing" her. And she needs to know that you hear her and will comply with her wishes on this matter.

As far as time with your son, do not back down to the point of unfairness, especially anything that may interfere with your raising your son and being with him as much as possible. You are walking a fine line here, between appeasement and standing up for your rights, and responsibilities to your son.