Does she really need a response to the email to know that I hear her and am complying? Wouldn't actions to that effect be message enough?

Honestly to me this is a -very little thing- that she's made issue of. Does it show that I'm moving on if I bite on it and let on that it got to me? I mean, by the wording of the email, it's obviously more of an attempt to do some knife twisting than it is to simply ask me to stop calling her 'baby'.. she could have simply done that without all of the 'I am not nor ever will be your baby', and the 'in light of the fact we are getting divorced' bit.

Now I also agree that me letting things roll off my back is one of her major gripes.. so maybe a response is warranted.. I'm just thinking my response will be to comply and not make any more of this than it really is. Plus I'm relatively certain the wording of the email was designed to elicit a DJ/AO response from me.. and just about anything I send back will be regarded as such, even if it isn't.

I'm not sure. Think of how you would have handled it before and do the opposite is my first gut feeling. It is good to surprise the WS... Maybe others can weigh in before you do anything.



Sign of an inner storm brewing, me thinks. Not quite achieveing a state of Zen over at the 'ole "love" hut. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

don't respond and respect her request.

James, I think you should start looking long term here. I don't believe there is even the slightest chance that your M is going to survive. I'm sorry, I don't know how else to say this. Your complete and ONLY focus should be your children. You will either need to find a way to get custody..which isn't looking great right about now...or you will have to find a way to keep the mama bear happy. She will be your biggest obstacle to having a great relationship with your children...so I would step carefully with her unless you win custody.

MEDC

Well Weaver.. I think how I would have handled it before would have been to turn around and throw it back on her side of the fence.. attacking the 'inappropriate' comment head on and basically telling her that she's a fine one to be lecturing on what is appropriate or not.

Truth.. but probably not very helpful here.

Add to that it's thinly veiled Relationship talk, and Divorce talk.. additional reasons I think it would be in my best interest not to rise to it, just be mindful of it in the future.


I'm thinking I agree with you and Bugsmom on this. My friend at work seems to think the same.. that he either heard the message this time (as opposed to the last time that she 'left it alone').. or they are extremely insecure in their relationship that me even offhandedly calling her 'baby' is a problem for her/them. Yet another reason for me to leave it alone.. if I respond then they can focus their frustration on me instead of where the real problem lies.

Thoughts? Others want to weigh in on the respond/don't respond debate?

MEDC.. I agree, that my -main- focus should be on securing custody for DS, and I am doing everything I can to effect that outcome.

While I know you don't see hope for salvaging the M, and honestly I am looking long term here that there -is- no hope of salvaging the M while she is actively in the A.. Exposure did not break it up, I don't expect Plan A will, and honestly, I don't expect Plan B will either. Will they hurry it along? Maybe.. but really, in the meantime I'll be working on me, and when 'that time' arrives I'll have recovered myself, which I understand is essential regardless of whether or not the M recovers.

I have confidence that the A will not last long term, whether her character issues rear their ugly head again, or if he just has enough and throws in the towel (which is the more likely of the two.. I've been a stones throw away myself a handful of times in our M, and I'm sure he doesn't have the same conviction about her, or the sanctity of marriage that I do, that prevented me from walking out the door).

You guys don't have to feel bad for hitting me with the: She's psycho, it's not going to work, give up now stuff.
I can take it.. I'm a big boy. I acknowledge that all liklihood points to you guys being absolutely right. Heck, you've seen a lot more of these than I have and can probably call them pretty close right from the start. If it's any consolation to you guys, my family and friends are right there with you.. and are starting to think I'm kind of a nutjob for fighting.

But get this folks.. 10 years down the road my DS is going to be 14.. and Indiana will respect his decision for where he wants to live. I figure well before he gets to that age he's going to ask me about what happened between his mommy and I. What am I going to say to him, if I don't do everything I possibly can to try and save -his- family? What am I going to tell DSD years down the road when she asks me? What kind of example would I be to my children, my wife, my neighbors, the people of my Church if I turned my back on my family when they needed me the most?

That's why I fight.. that's why I'm giving MB the best try I can.

I love my family, and yeah.. that includes my baby.. um..er.. wife. It's not out of desperation.. it's because I made a promise to her that I would love her through good times and bad.. for better or worse. It's because a man honors his word, and does all he can to protect his family. It's because that is what I feel I'm being led by God to do.

So I'll continue to stand.

the problem with your wife ...other than the obvious James...is even if her affair ended today, IMHO, her affair is the least of your problems. I believe your wife is a nut-job(sorry!) that will be a cancer to any man she touches.

No one is suggesting you trun your back on your family...that you just recognize the emenmy to your family is an insider.

By the very nature of her being a wayward, what you say is absolutely true.

I know there's more than that, given her behavior that is shocking even for a wayward around here.

Oddly.. the sheer rediculousness of it all is what gives me that shred of hope for the future.

James there is more to it then her being wayward. She was a bad mom from the get go. Remember this act she is pulling now is nothing new to her. She has done it before to another man.
You are trying hard to win back one of the worst mothers I have ever heard of.
I think your pain over her affair and your desire to win back your family has clouded your view of who and what this woman really is.
She has a track record and it ain't good....and I suspect it will get a lot worse.
James, it is time to face the facts that you picked poorly with this woman. Been there done that myself. My ex wants back in in the worst way. I would never allow it...why...because I am not making that mistake. That is a lesson you have yet to learn.
James, she is just not a good woman or mother. Try and look at her objectively.

I've been looking objectively at the situation MEDC.

It's one of the main reasons I'm trying everything I can to save this M.

I know who she really is.. you don't spend even 4.5 years with someone and not see -who- they really are. I love the woman I was married to for the last 3 years. I want her, and my family back.. poor choice to marry her in the first place or not. She's still my wife.

I'm standing.. when the time comes for me to move on with my life, after the D is final and I've had time to recover myself.. then I'll move on, not before.

So hey.. I need some help doing the best Plan A I can.

Ok.. well yesterday had a very unintended side effect.

As much as I laughed about the absurdity of the email, I sat down last night and realized what a massive LB withdrawl it was for me.

I still love my wife.

But I'm letting go.. Weaver, you've been suggesting it for a couple of pages now, but never really came out and said it.. I had to find it on my own. I have to just let go and get on with being happy with my life as it is. Show that I can adapt and while I can hang on to hope, I need to dig in and get me on solid ground if I'm going to stay in this fight.

Ol 2long.. I owe you an apology. You were absolutely right. I think my biggest fear is letting go, and not wanting her back at the end of this. I think it's my biggest fear because I think it's the most likely outcome. I still have enough love for her I think to keep Plan A going through the holidays.. I think after that I'll draft a letter and send it, then completely detach from her. I'm not going to be able to have an intermediary for exchanges and such (Indiana Parenting Guidelines).. but the contact with her is sparse enough that it wouldn't take much to shut it down almost completely.

This abuse, this chaos in my life I don't need.. it's doing terrible things to my soul, and making my mind and body weary. It's through prayer, fasting one meal a day, and faith that I am sustained now, and shall be in the future. I will stand for my marriage as long as God directs me to, but my focus will be on me and my kids.. It is only hurting me to be so concerned about the rediculous choices she is making for her life. I have enough pain.. It's time to stop picking the scab.

As I go forward with the sham of family holidays this year, pretending to be happy for the sake of my kids while my beloved tramples merrily on the rubble of all that we've built. Know that I am truly thankful for the support and guidance I've received here. I wouldn't have come even this far without you.

My thoughts and prayers are with you all.

James,

The only thing I am going to say to you is this - Allow yourself moments this holiday season to actually BE happy. It may not 'feel' like there is any chance whatsoever for that to be true,,, but they will be there if you watch for them.

The small moments,,, like watching DS dig into a piece of pie and the total joy he has in that. Share it with him.

Or

DD gets that perfect gift she really wants and her face will just SHINE! Bask in THOSE moments. When the urge to go down the "WW should be here" path comes upon you, push it away,,,,even for just a few mintes,,,,and feel some joy.

It will be there.

{{James}}

I'm going to try to do that Bugs..


I've been mostly ok this week with Thanksgiving coming up.. and I know Christmas is going to be even worse.

I just wish the pain in my heart would go away.. I have DS tonight and I -am- looking forward to it. But a large part of me just wants to curl up in bed and throw the sheets over my head.

This was -such- a special time of year for my wife and I.. not just because of the holidays.. but because this was when her conviction for 'family' was the strongest.

I was with someone for 6 years James, and I didn't know "who" he was at all. I should have, all the signs were definitely there, but I must have been blinded by own addiction, or attachment to him, because I turned a blind eye to the destruction he had left in his path, and was making out of my life.

His MO, was BTW, the same as your WW's.

You can often judge a person by the chit they drag their children through.

What she has done to that poor daughter of hers, and what she is doing to your son...says it all about her.

A mother would NOT drag their children willingly through this stuff.

I am a mother James, and I can tell you that I would do everything in my power to prevent harm to my DD's emotional health, family stability, or relationship with her father, and now the R she has with her step mom and half siblings.

I'm glad of your latest post James. I think you are getting it now.

She can say what ever she wants about how she loves her children, how she "wants" a family...but her actions show that is not true. Her actions show that she is totally and completely self-serving and to [email]h@ll[/email] with the children God has entrusted in her care.

I am supporting your plan A, but in my heart I hope to [email]h@ll[/email] she does not come back. And I hope by the power of God, some heavenly intervention happens to protect those children from her current and future love itnerests.

You knwo what happens to girls who have not had a stable father figure, right? Statistically it is not good.

IF (and this is a big if) she changes and becomes a decent human being and mother...well that would be a wonderful thing for everyones sake.

Edited to add: Actually I hope she has a massive value system change and does come back. I just hope it is with that change. Or maybe if she came back you would at least provide the stability that is needed for the kids.

Oh, for Rice Cake! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

2long's suggested sarcastic response:

Jamesus: Oh, sorry baby. I'll try 2 remember that.

-ol' 2long

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jamesus, perhaps in your daily prayers and fasting, you ask God to intervene so directly and impact her life in such a way that it transforms the person that she is into the Godly wife that that you deserve? This may and probably will require you stepping back (letting go) even more to allow God to work. In the meantime, you gain strength in your heart and be preparing for whatever outcome. But you know, it is possible. With God, ALL things are possible.

(((Jamesus)))

You know, I started my reply to this post about five diferent ways..

Well.. you see..

I get what you're saying but..

Here's the thing..

BLAH BLAH BLAH... shut up James.. stop making excuses for her.

I think she's messed up Weaver.. there's something not firing right in that head of hers. There's a storied history of depression in her family.. a string of Stepmothers that she consistently despised.. a father who was for the most part emotionally vacant due to depression or whatever drugs they had him on to treat it..

There's a lot of her past that she's going to have to eventually overcome, or be consumed by. It breaks my heart to have watched her surface from it, only to be sucked under again. I wonder if I didn't start this relationship trying to 'rescue' her from herself.. and if I'm not still trying to 'rescue' her.

I almost look at it like a lifeguard jumping in to save a drowning person.. only to get them to the shore and show them how to swim.. then when the lifeguard's back is turned, confident that the 'victim' is now capable of keeping themselves above water.. suddenly they've vanished between the surface.

She was an asst mgr at Wendy's when we met.. me, a senior support analyst doing AS400 work with an IBM partner in Indy. She was barely making ends meet, driving around a deathtrap car with her beautiful 3 year old in the back seat, and living in a little 2 bedroom apt that looked like goats lived there.

I was doing great, drove a 35th anniversary Z-28 that was my project car, played in a regionally successful band, had no problems making ends meet and having a little extra to do all the fun things I wanted to do with DD.

Then *BAM*.. Soul meets soul when eyes meet eyes.. and I fell -hard- for her almost that fast. Our first meeting I was running sound at a gig after my band got done playing. My guitar player had invited her out to see the show under the 'pretense' of hooking her up with either the bassist (me) or the drummer. Turns out she had about 5 guys on the line by the time I walked up with a refresher for her drink, a grin on my lips and some helpful advice for the little guy who was trying -way- too hard... I actually conned him into buying WW's 3rd and 4th drink that night. She gave me her number before she left, and told me she'd be definitely interested in seeing me again.. and I called.. a few times with no response.

So a few weeks later we had a gig in the same town where she worked (my home town) and so I swung by the restaraunt and cornered her there.. asked her when she got off, and told her I'd rearrange the schedule so my band played last and she'd get to see us.. she showed up. I was running sound that night too, so had to pack up the stage, and she stayed, chit chatting with me and the partner in the audio reinforcement company I co-owned. My partner, her and I swung by Steak N Shake that night and sat down to chat. Ultimately things were going so well she didn't want to stop talking and so we went to her apartment. We sat on the couch all nite, and talked until 7 in the morning.. we kissed that night too.. a single kiss that might have lasted 20 minutes.. followed by several smaller ones. She's never kissed me like that since, but that kiss hooked me.. for 4.5 years I've been looking for that kiss again.

Maybe you're right.. maybe she doesn't have it in her.

Maybe she never really did.

Ditto that.

While we were dating and married she always seemed to have a very strong sense of family, and held very tight to values that seemed so contrary to what she is doing now.

She really was for the most part a good mom. No, she didn't have all the domestic skills most people associate with the traditional role of mother.. no she wasn't always attentive and emotionally available.. but I have -no- doubt that she loves those kids the best way she knows how.

She's just incapable of acknowledging to herself how this is affecting them.. I honestly believe that she just doesn't see it. I think she's bought into her own hype that the kids will be better off if they have a happy mother. I think her work friend, that family, and wonderboy are all reinforcing this notion.. the kids are distracted by all the 'fun' that goes on at coworker's place with the other kids running around.. using their things, their toys and staying over.. it's been like a 3 month sleepover party for them.

Honestly this past weekend was the first overt sign from DS that all of this is really disturbing him.. or that he's having trouble adjusting. I'm sure it's worse for DSD, but she's been through this before.. and mom is probably so distracted that she doesn't even notice.

I honestly believe that her securing this house (still don't know -how- she got a bank to give her money) and starting to live without the work-friend/family support group she's had for the last 3 months will hit the accelerator on the reality check she's got coming. I think it'll open her eyes.. wonderboy's eyes.. and even work friend's eyes in fairly short order.

It's time for me to step back.. way back and let them crumble under their own weight.. meanwhile I can work on me and get happy again.. truly happy. That way when (not if) she starts looking this way again.. I'll be able to make a decision on whether or not it's worth it to try again... or if in fact, too much has happened.

Affairs suck.. I'm sad today.. sad that I'm still chasing that kiss. It really was the moment I fell in love with her.. and over time that love matured for me.. I know what that kiss felt like.. and I'm betting she's had another taste of it with Wonderboy.. and -thinks- that's love.

This affair is not special by any stretch of the imagination.. The setting and circumstances are different.. but the feelings, emotions, and natural progress of things is so sickeningly typical.. I know it will fall apart sooner or later. She's not the type to 'carry the load' for Wonderboy.. and she'll have to in order for them to work. We'll see how long it lasts.. and when it crumbles, then I'll maybe try 'dating' my wife and see if the feelings are still there... if they are, great.. but I won't be kissing with my eyes closed this time.. I'll know what the real package is going in.

Jamesus,

I wish you the best tomorrow and through the weekend. You and I share the same standing for our marriages and I know how hard this can be.

I talked to someone last night that gave me a huge piece of advice. It is to pray for forgiveness and continue on being the very best woman G-d has in store for me. He also told me that I have two children at home that I can "husband" until my real one comes home. That today I am learning and creating the home that I want when G-d blesses me with him coming home.

You and I have such a deep love for our spouses and understand what we are facing and what G-d has called upon us. But we have to let G-d have him time and his space to create in them what he is creating and we don't get to interfere.

Tonight, I was hurting so bad over WH saying, just making the stuffing and then getting offline. I emailed him back and told him that his sister and I had done the same thing today. He emailed me back and told me that our would be better and I asked him if he wanted me to bring some home to him. He said, if it worked out.

You are also right, that no one, but us know what good exists in our spouses, and that's why we keep fighting for them. But the best fight we can fight is to leave them to G-d and let him create in them the godly spouses that we deserve, and we do.

I am not in a place to admit that maybe it won't work out. I am in the place to completely trust G-d and absolutely know that today I walk in G-ds will by fighting for my M, and becoming and creating the best life possible.

Does that make sense? I will be thinking about you tomorrow.

Warmly,
Barbara