Oy.. movie quotes.. one of my favorites, but I'm afraid you stumped me there.


I'd love to say I'm doing a good job of this, but I find myself still peeking over the fence trying to read the tea leaves and figure out what's going on in WW's head.. yesterday is a prime example of that.

Wayward behavior is just so confusing.. and I so dislike being confused.

Probably will be a blessing once I'm at a point I can enter Plan B and just turn out the lights.

I am trying to take things as they come, accept what is there at face value and go on. It does however completely baffle me why there has to be a lie attached to everything.. I've never worried about her lying to me before all of this, though I know now that she has been dishonest with me the entire relationship about some things.. I almost wonder if I'm not assigning dishonesty to everything out of a simple lack of trust.. It's just rediculous some of the lies though.. the truth would serve her much better if her true intention is to detach.

I'm getting really tired of the rollercoaster.

This is where you start getting your first real glimpses that plan A/B are for the BS, not the WS at all. Sure, there are things you do during plan A that appear 2 be for the WS, like negotiating the end 2 an A, or enticing them back 2 the M. But none of it is really for the WS.

But I disagree with your comment about 2rning out the lights. You can do that now, meaning shutting down your assumption engine, that is.

Just tell yourself, when you start speculating like this, that the safest assumption you can make is that your assumptions are wrong.

Then, go about your business of living your life and raising your kids. Your W has removed herself from the equation at this time. And she won't come back because of anything you do or don't do. So you really might as well do what's good for you and your kids.

If she comes back, it'll be due 2 a change she's made in herself, by herself.

-ol' 2long

I agree. The more you take yourself out of the situation the less confused you will become. As LA says..own your stuff..control what you can...you. Let the rest go. The rollercoaster will stop the minute you get off the ride.

The movie quote was from Seven, btw.

Sadly.. probably one of the safest assumptions I can make is that she won't change.

That being said.. I pray for it every day... several times a day.

I've got to find a way to survive this and come out the other side with my head on straight, and my heart ready to love again.

I waffle from feeling like a cornered animal, to one who just wants to hide in that corner..

The other unfortunate part is that the business of raising my kids (not living my life.. finally getting -there- at least) is dependent upon her cooperation. She is being very shrewd in this department, and in all honesty I could probably be doing better.

I also have a problem that has been bothering me.

I really don't want Wonderboy at my house.. he's been driving WW to pick up DS. He's not welcome here, and even more importantly, I think this is sending the wrong message to DS about the big morality issue at play here.. as in, if I let him go with her -and- Wonderboy.. I'm implicitly approving of what she's doing... nothing could be further from the truth.

Is it a big enough deal to make issue of? Risk a confrontation over?

2) I'm still trying to find a way to get through to DSD. I ask all the time to speak with her but nobody ever actually says anything to DSD.. and I'm supposed to still buy the crap about how she doesn't want to talk to me or see me.. feh.

Seven... man I LOVE that movie..

So.. how do you get off the ride while still in Plan A?


Am I missing the point that it's about me here with that question?

I actually still don't understand why this wasn't addressed in the temp custody hearing. There should have been a stipulation in there that your DS was not to be around OM. I am still baffled by the way it all went down in that dept.

At any rate, this is a question for your atty, I would think. I do not think you can prevent him from driving WW and DS around town. You may be able to prevent him from actually driving into your private property (driveway), but what difference does it make if he is still in DS's life, driving him around everywhere else?

Do you mean you want to show DS that you don't approve by forbidding him to drive onto your driveway?

I don't see the significance, if he is in the boys life every other way.

That you are fighting for the boy is showing him through actions your love. He does not need to get involved in petty resentments about who drives for the swaps. (I know it is not petty to you, and I wouldn't want to see the creep either, but it is how it would be viewed if OM is allowed in his life in all other aspects) That would not be fair to your son. Kids have an absolute keen sense of what is going on regardless, and the best you can do for them is to allow open communication where he can talk it out with you.

Thanks JJ.. and that was where I was headed in my mind. I cannot prevent Wonderboy from being around DS, or DSD..

It just really bothers me that he shows up in my driveway, in my van, in my kids' life, in -my- role, and I know later that night he's probably going to be -in- my wife.

*mutter*

Ok.. angry outburst over.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

I really want my son to have a full and happy life.. in order for that to happen, unfortunately WW is going to have to break this cycle in her life.. it's destructive, not only to her but now to her kids.

How much do these kids have to suffer before she sees it, and acknowledges that it is -her choices- that are causing this?

But even that is presuming you can read her mind and know what she will or won't do. By contrast, assuming that your assumptions are wrong is about your thinking, not about hers.


Instead of praying for someone who'd rather you didn't, why not pray for yourself and your kids instead? Praying for her is no different than making assumptions about what she's doing, because you're still trying 2 influence her thinking, albeit via a "third party."


Yes, as do we all.


I doubt that there's anything you can do about this legally, unless he were 2 become violent 2ward you or the kids. And if he and your WW are going 2 get married, you'll have 2 deal with him in their lives.


Others have, and I don't think it serves them well.


If your lawyer can't make any headway on your behalf, I don't think there's anything you can do but keep trying when you get the chance, but don't be pushy.

-ol' 2long

Your son is going to have a full and happy life, and for that to happen you are going to either get full or partial custody and you are going to be such a strong, loving, stable, formidable force that none of her future BF'S/husbands are going to mess with your son. They will not challenge your place as his father, and so the lines of parentage will not be watered down, especially by creeps who only jump in when their is weakness.

Make sense?

Get your focus off of her and what she needs to do and back onto yourself, where it belongs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ok.. I get that I need to change my thinking, either that or just adjust my thoughts instead of 'what did her reaction to this mean? What is she reacting to?' to not concerning myself about her reactions at all?

Getting to the point that actions.. not reactions are what matters?

Still.. I feel I should be praying for her, if nothing else to find God and break this terrible pattern in her life. Truly in that I feel as if I am praying for the benefit of not only myself, but also my children.

I know you think I've got a 'stop yer sinnin and get back to church' mentality.. and in some ways.. on a bigger picture I do. I'm not preaching to her.. not trying to show her any way is necessarily better than another.. I'm just trying to lead a good life with compassion and care, even for those who show me none.

Have you asked DS to put DSD on the phone when you are finished talking to him? Just wondering.

Well, that would be an assumption on your part, wouldn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


At least you recognize this. When I was religious, the church I belonged 2 taught that we should not pray for people who don't ask for it. That's where I was coming from with that, at least background-wise. These days, I'm not religious, but I still feel as though praying for her - even if it's "okay" 2 do so in your church's view - is little more than a lame excuse for allowing yourself 2 speculate about what she's doing or not doing (because you have 2 make the judgment that she's doing wrong and needs fixing). And it's definitely trying 2 control an outcome that involves another person - who has the right and responsibility 2 control themselves, whether they appear 2 be exercising those rights/responsibilities in your view or not.

-ol' 2long

Huh? Sounds a tad "judgmental" there, 2long ("lame excuse").

Since when is intercessory prayer for someone a way to "control" them?

I guess it could be, if it were ala the Muslim extremist concept of "convert or die," but I can't recall where Christians have made such an assertion (unless you are talking about the "heaven vs. he11" concept of death).

If two people are professing believers, however, it is part of the responsibility of believers to warn someone, in love, if they are doing something that is obviously "wrong" according to what God has said is how believers should live their lives. But even with a "warning," there is no way to "force" someone to change. That change must come from the conviction of the Holy Spirit in that person's own body.

Here's an article 2 help you get off the rollercoaster. Just realize that it's entirely up 2 you as 2 when you step off.

As for foggy thinking, assuming the "victim" role is very much the same thing. And as for plan A/B, they're analogous 2 the discussion at the end of the article about getting off the victim triangle:

http://iloveulove.com/psychology/psychspirit/thefacesofvictim.htm

-ol' 2long

CW.. I'm kind of at odds with this actually. He has handed her the phone on his own before and she's taken it.. once.

I'm not sure that's a position I ought to be putting DS into... I do really want to talk to DSD though.



2Long.. Ok.. now I'm making assumptions about you :P Sorry.

As for the praying.. I struggle with the thought that praying for someone who does not want your prayers is a bad thing. Even in praying though I understand that the responsibility for her actions are hers.. not Gods. I only ask God to give her direction to walk with Him and his path.. even if His will is not in line with my own.

In all things trust in the Lord, and lean not unto thine own understanding.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

FH.. I think you said it much better than I did. Thank you... though I'm not upset with 2long making a DJ on me and my lame excuses.. some of them are pretty lame. Almost as lame as my WW's excuses to call me on the phone.. see how this carosel works? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just joshin ya 2long.. I read the article you linked to when it was posted on another thread.. a -very- interesting read. I think my starting point is the rescuer.. though I'm finding it very easy to put myself into the victim role.. trying not to do that anymore.

Stepping off the wheel though is the tough part.. I'm trying to get there.

James:

I was ac2ally surprised when I realized that I may have ac2ally been a "persecu2r" during much of my marriage!

This would be surprising 2 anyone who knows me - I'm usually very quiet, quite often 2 my own detriment. I've gotten angry enough 2 ac2ally yell at someone (an officemate) exactly once in the past 30 years, and that happened about 27 years ago.

But looking back from an "in recovery" position, I can see that even up until recently I thought of myself as better than my W. After all, she had an LTA and I didn't, so I MUST be a better person than her, right?

Dealing with infidelity certainly is one of those life experiences that involves rotating around the drama triangle, isn't it? And it's precisely because it is so dramatic that we can finally become aware of it and our position on it.

I'm ac2ally grateful for that. Which isn't saying "I'm grateful for the A". Rather, I'm grateful because my particular life experiences have allowed me 2 better myself, and allow others 2 take charge of their own choices and behaviors.

-ol' 2long

I disagree! You certainly CAN pray for someone who doesn't want your prayers. How many grannies have prayed for their grandchildren behind the scenes only to see them become wonderful men and women of God as a result? How many instances in the Bible are there where someone intervened with prayer and God held back his wrath?

In my own personal situation, had I NOT been praying along with many other folks, my FWH would NOT have returned home and changed completely. He has told me MANY times that when he heard I was praying for him and asking others to pray, he knew he was in trouble. He did not WANT anyone praying for him. Because he knew.

Prayer is powerful and a husband SHOULD be praying for his wife.

Ok guys.. I can see both sides of this argument, and honestly I'd rather not get into whether or not I should be praying for my wife. I am praying for her, and will continue to do so. Not because I think she's a sinnin ho.. but because I love her and I want for her to know the joy I have found in my renewed walk with God.

I think I've also done the persecutor role too.. well, that's part of it right.. we go around the wheel when drama enters our life.

I think though that getting off the wheel is what I need to do.. it's just figuring out how to go about that. I -feel- like a victim.. I -want- to be a rescuer.. I sometimes am a persecutor..

I just wanna be me.. I want to be the man I know I can be.

Yes, it is. I also told Jamesus that, during a discussion about it. I thought a little "shock value" was appropriate in that instance. I certainly wasn't making the judgment 2 hurt him, but 2 help him see my point.

Which is that in order for him 2 see the need 2 pray for his WW, he has 2 make the judgment that she's screwed up. Well, she may be. She's probably even "doing wrong." But as we all know from our experiences with this infidelity stuff, she may never get it. And frankly, she may even skate through her entire life never getting it or even needing 2 get it 2 get her needs, such as they are, met. And if the immorality of that never bothers her, then at the end of Jamesus' own lifetime, it won't have mattered a hill of beans whether he judged right or wrong, if he's praying that his W will change her lyin' and/or sinnin' ways.

But if he's truly just praying for her because he cares about her walk with her deity, then I don't see that as judgmental at all. But it's hard 2 separate that from the "safe assumption" that he's decided that she's messed up and that's why she needs the prayers, based on the fact that he is here on an infidelity forum.


I don't see any difference between this approach as you describe and, say, MB methods (non-denominational) or getting off the drama triangle. They all deal with letting people make their own choices, face their own consequences of those choices, controlling only one's own behavior, and recognizing that telling the truth isn't lovebusting. I have no problem with it.

-ol' 2long