Sushi, I'm sorry I realized what I posted and what you wrote after I did it...I was editting the post as you were posting...

please forgive me...

well, based on your edit Rin, I guess my above post was not needed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No worries! I thought for a minute that I had said the opposite of what I was meaning to say.

James

I'm going to chime in here and give you my opinion with a twist on what MEDC and some other recent posters have said.

You are doing Plan A, you are standing for your M and your family. Those are all noble things and I pray for your strength and ultimate success each day.

But MEDC and one other poster is dead on when they talk about the respect issue. I am talking to you as a strong, independent and intelligent woman and I am telling you in no uncertain terms that if you want your WW to see you as a viable option as a lifetime partner, you have to (re)gain her RESPECT.

Here's the deal-- if I respect a man (father, bosses, frineds) I am willing to do what is necessary to gain their approval, admiration and attention. OTOH, if I don't respect him I'll be nice but discount him in terms of making an effort to "please" him so to speak.

One of the reasons my M became less intimate and wnet down the this horrible road was because I lost respect for my WH. I own my mistakes in the M, but when I lost respect for him I stopped meeting his ENs because in reality I did not care about making an effort for him.

And I will tell you that before the A, I would have told you my WH was one of the nicest guys in the world, would put himself out, bend over backwards to help. But (and here is the KEY for me), he DID NOT STAND UP FOR HIMSELF AND HIS RIGHT TO BE RESPECTED AS A MAN. We did not argue much, but we argued over this issue. He thought the best way was just to let me do whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted to keep me happy. Grear gig for me, but guess what--in the long run it had the opposite effect. I lost repsect and love for him because by letting me have my way, by not enforcing his boundaries in our M, I FELT HE DID NOT CARE. I wanted him to take a stand on issues, to tell me no--because to me that said he valued himself and he was engaged in this relationship. In a true partnership, one person doesn't get to call all the shots.

I've got run now but I'll continue this thought...

Smartie

SP2, I think that you made some great points...I know that I did the same thing...blew him off...I was the caregiver and rescuer...then I was the resentful one and thought he was incapable...

It really was a matter of respect after awhile...and remains to this day!

Now, I can hear LovingAnyway saying: Respect is not earned...LOL...

Sushi & MEDC...I have a meeting to attend later tonight...I'm going take a nap! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Smartie,


Excellent points. Now that my WxGF's A is over. I am begining to reflect a lot more. I, too, was not respected by my WxGF. She e-mailed me that it was over and how she felt. In the past I would have written back empathesized, but the new me says, "so what". If you want me to react or listen you need to put forth the effort not me. So we'll see how the game plays out. Honestly I'm working on me right now and owning my stuff and stepping up.

Thanks Rin...ok back on the soapbox for a just minute more.

Even in terms of reconciliation, the respect issue remains a barrier for me. (WH sure did not score points by having an A <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />).And LovingAnyway is right--respect is NOT earned. The men who I mentioned in my initial post did not DO things to earn my respect. They simply conducted themselves in ways that showed strength, intellgience and decency--that's who they WERE and it underscored their sense of self-worth. Men who are weak are not attractive...as nice as they may be, in the end, they are not attractive.

So James when I read things in your thread like you shook Wonderboy's hand or you gave WW a holiday pie, I imagined what I would do if I were a WW and my WH did that with my OM. I won't be harsh, but I'll just say it would not have made me think "Gee, look at my H being decent to OM. H realy has it all over OM". My perception would have been "well, H values our M and family so little he'll actually just allow me to do anything--including take his child to live with my OM." James, I stood my ground to my WH over our doggies--he got the message LOUD and CLEAR that no way was he going to take them to OW's apartment. And he didn't either because he knew I was not kidding even though he loves those pups. And if we had kids--man, with children all he!! would have been unleashed from the get-go if he would have even tried it.

You need to PROTECT the things that are yours James. Right now, WW is out of your sphere, but the kids... And James, before this is all said and done you have to show that you are willing to protect yourself. You'll have to show WW that she can't take what she now perceives to be her happiness at your expense. That's just a basic instinct.

Read Mortarman's thread on the role of wives and husbands if you can find it and get a chance. I thought it was great stuff...

Anyway, enough from me. I hope you know James that I say these things because I care and I want what is God's will for you and what is best for you and your children.

I'm still in your corner... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Smartie

Sushi,

Do you have that thread of Mortarmans?

Hm..........

For James 2 do half the [censored] you folks are advising him 2 do, re his kids, at this point would most likely get his visitation severely restricted.

Respect isn't earned? I'm surprised 2 hear that LA may have said that.

Respect is earned.

If my W had done what James' W is doing, I would hope I had the ability 2 remain calm in front of my kids, even if the OM were there.

Do you people honestly think that his WW will respect him if he makes demands of her 2 end her A or let him see his step daughter if she doesn't want those things?

Should James want that kind of respect? I wouldn't want it, especially from someone who would value the kinds of "ethics" that would entail.

I sure know that all ya'all's God would want him 2 do something far more like the MB way when interacting with the alien, because she won't stop being the alien because of pressure from James. Rather, because the house of cards she's living in with the OM simply cannot stand.


And this is done with a carefully crafted plan B letter and implementation of plan B, after a good plan A. Not with threats.


I doubt very very much that the grandparents can do anything. They've got a lot 2 lose by alienating their daughter. This is why James has 2 be prepared for them possibly taking her "side" at some point - blood is thicker than water.

I don't think this is about saving his marriage anymore. It's about keeping a co-parenting arrangement as amicable as possible for the sake of maximizing the time he can have with his kids.

Saving the marriage is 2ndary.

-ol' 2long

, Yes, it can...and they sometimes do.



It isn't a threat 2long...it is a statement that says this is my boundary...you are being given notice that my tolerance about this situation has reached its limit.



I don't agree at all. And pressure has worked in quite a few cases on this site. Bottom line though, I would support the patient approach if it were not for the kids.



This is just plain false. I say this from first hand experience. James has lost his time with his son because he has been too passive.


I think the chances are a heck of a lot better that she would! I KNOW she will not respect him for shaking the guys hand....that to me, is showing an acceptance of the role this person has in your wife's life. Sorry...not happening.



On this we agree. 2Long, I am a dad with full custody. Mom has no legal rights at all. If I had followed Jame's path, I would be seeing my son every other week at best. A father needs to be doubly aggressive in securing his rights to his children.

Ok..

Everybody done for the moment? Ok, good.

I'm going to make this clear. I love my wife. I'm not giving up on her or my family.

I will not stoop to her level of making threats, selfish demands, angry outbursts, and disrespectful judgements. Not happening.. get over it.

Plan B is coming.. likely sans intermediary.. the delete button works when needed.. I'm working on it on my own, with or without the help and support of the people here on this board. I'm going to try to save my marriage.. that's what I came here for, and while I respect everyone's opinion on the matter of whether or not my wife is worth saving, I didn't ask any of you that question. None of you know her as I do.. all you know of her is my venting of frustrations regarding her wayward behavior.. that doesn't really cast her in much of a good light.. Your suggestions to me to give up on her are much like her CoWorker's suggestions to her... having only heard her complaints and not truly seeing all of the ways we contributed to eachothers lives.

I'm 4 months in people.. and yes.. she has done some pretty despicable things in that time.. abusive things to me and our children emotionally.. divorce itself is abusive enough and yes many of these things are above and beyond... I agree, and I am angry about it.. It's the reason I'm fighting for my son.. and yes, we are going to be persuing things a bit more aggressively.

My wife and my in-laws are finished with eachother.. Dad wants nothing more to do with her until she gives up her boyfriend and his family. I imagine SIL is on much the same page but haven't heard from her. I am supporting their decision and will be joining them shortly.

While I would like to have the support of the people here through that process, I'll do it on my own if I have to.. I have that strength now.

I believe in my vows. I believe in the spiritual battle I am entrenched in to save my wife. I believe in the covenant and sacrement of my marriage even though she has chosen to break with it. I believe in the power of forgiveness and love. I believe in the Lord who leads me and guides my steps, and tells me to wait for Him.. tells me to trust in Him, and lean not unto my own understanding. I believe that the commandments against deceit, adultery, and honoring parents are not merely suggestions. I believe that I am not an adulterer... please stop asking me to look on whatever bright side you might see in the beautiful and wonderful other women in the world.. they aren't for me.. not until it is time to move on.

MEDC.. I thank you for your convictions and suggestions. I appreciate your frank and open style. I appreciate that you were one of the first to reach out to me.. but you're acting like the schoolyard bully to anyone who even remotely disagrees with you. You're welcome to continue contributing to me, but cut out the bullying on my thread, please.

I appreciate those who may not agree with my continued stand, but have pledged to continue helping and supporting me through it. I have a lot of respect for that, and believe that you are just as entitled to your opinions as I, or anyone else is.. I thank you for your viewpoints and hope you stick around.

Love is about to get tough for my wife.. and it's a difficult thing for me to do. I will keep a focus on respecting myself.. my boundaries.. MEDC is right about one thing.. I need to send a strong message in the next day or so to knock her off -if- she's teetering.. I'm working on what I want to say.. she's not ready to hear what I'd really like to say.. that much is obvious with the way she's cut off her family now..

I'm not looking to save my marriage at all costs.. I'm simply looking to save my marriage if it can be saved. It's easy to try and play with peoples lives from miles away.. but people are coming here for help saving their marriage.. that's our choice to make.. the worth of our spouses are ours to determine.. the worth of our families are ours to estimate. I own those choices.. they are mine. Nobody else is going to make them for me.

You are all in my heart and prayers.
J

James, if it makes you feel better to lash out at me, go ahead. I have not bullied anyone here by disagreeing with them. I state my position and have not told them that their opinion is worthless...just that I disagree.
You obviously have issue with me relating my opinion and experience...so, I will wish you good luck and hope things work out as well as they can.



really sounds like bullying doesn't it?

James, you're such a sweetheart, you really are. I would be proud to have you for a son. Your own mother must be terribly proud of you.

You know, I am not a Christian anymore, although I grew up thinking Jesus was the best thing in my life, actually as a little girl the love of my life. I think I learned the 10 commandments before anything else. I LOVED church and Jesus and of course God. I miss the choir, the music...but anyway.

On respect, I respect people the most who are true to their own beliefs. And that you are James.

I was thinking last night on why I love my husband so much, what I would miss most of all if he were ever gone, why I picked him. And aside from the fact that he loves me, and at my age I know that anyone who would walk away from a person who truly loves them would be a fool, what I love about him is his personality. Irreplaceble, and very much consistant is it.

Make sure James, that in your Plan A, you don't lose your own unique personality. Don't hide it. Lose the bad parts of it, but let your WW see your personality. The humour, the deepness, the silliness...whatever it is about you that is you.

That's why I wished you had commented on your DSD's tshirt in the moment. Speaking your truth, letting your humour show...these are not love busters. Anything less would be fake, or false, phony. And Plan A should never be about phoniness.

KWIM?

MEDC

It doesn't make me feel better, and the entire post was not directed at you. I'm sorry if you felt that it was.

I have no problems with you disagreeing with me, and pointing out the flaws in my logic, you're looking at things from the outside and giving the best advice you know how.. to me. It's the side arguments with the others I was pointing at. For me at least, on my thread.. the side arguments aren't constructive and get us way off track at times.

I'm sorry guys.. I'm not trying to be mean or nasty to anyone here.. I've just had enough bickering, and people pushing me to give up in my life.. when her family is finally stepping up to the plate and putting the screws to her.. now is -NOT- the time to give in.. not for me at least... I can't deal with the conflict here too where I've come for support, advice on how to -save- my marriage.. not give up on it..

Sorry.. I just wanted to stop everyone jumping on the 'dump the evil *itch bandwagon'... I'm not there.. and I'm asking for help to do just the opposite.

James,

People give advice and comments from their own paradigm / perspective. In reality - most folks would not be able to handle your situation very long. It is a very heartbreaking for anyone who loves is wife and family. You seem to have a inner strength to see this through. Personally I think you ought to follow the current course (Plan A) as such it is now to maximize your chances to regain more time for son should your situation end up in final D.

If you can handle it - wait till things get finalize and then go very very dark in Plan B to protect yourself. You should be able to use your FIL as intermediary. Another thing I wanted to ask - how did you get custody of your DD from prev marriage and what ever happen to DSD father's attempt to get CS involved. I am surprised he or his family havent intervened.

Keep the fight going - may you find peace that you deserve from this situation.

If you get a chance - read Mortarman threads - he fought against all odds and finally reconciled.

I am so happy to hear you say this. James, just to be clear, whenever I say things about fighting for your son, I am in no way suggesting that you give up on your marriage.


This is great! The pressure is mounting.


You've got my support through prayers and otherwise.


Good for you! I had MANY people tell me to kick my DH to the curb. If you've read my story, he did things WAY worse than your WS has done, over and over again. No one EXCEPT ME believed in my marriage for the longest time.

I hear ya.

Can someone please HELP ME? I need to know if anyone has heard anything about Homer McDonald's book STOP YOUR DIVORCE. I am desperate to do anything to save my marriage.

James:

What you are doing is very much in line with MB. It's also very similar 2 what lostva did. Did you read that link I posted a while back?

I agree, you shouldn't make any of your personal decisions based on what we think you should or shouldn't do regarding any of what's going on.

Since you're here at MB, and really following the plans probably better than you give yourself credit for, why not coach with Steve or Jennifer on when the right time 2 go 2 plan B might be? You can give them a lot more specifics about your sitch 2 them than you can go in2 here.

And they wrote the plans. They work them every day. When we do hear details from people here who've worked with one of them, I think it's important 2 note that the "tone" and content of what they advise is almost ALWAYS less confrontational, aggressive, or "tough" than the emotional responses these sitches often evoke on these boards.

Think about it.


That was cool, Josie.

It's so funny, 2. I'm sure we all have replayed mental movies about how funny that might have been if James had made his comment about the shirt. But he didn't.

What he does do and say often doesn't get relayed on this thread - it just can't. This is just text. Sometimes we get glimpses of his true spirit - like in his post above (thanks James, you earned *my* respect!). I'm betting that sometimes his WW is even getting glimpses. That's a part of a good plan A.

So it may be time for plan B soon. Do it by the MB book. This sitch is ripe for that. Call Steve or Jen.

In the end, of course, it remains your choice.

-ol' 2long

babyof11, you will get much more help for you situation if you start up a new thread [hit button "POST"] and tell your story. Others won't see you buried down at the bottom of James' thread.

Ok.. lots of stuff.

Josie: Thank you for your post and support.. I was actually raised through grade school in a Baptist church.. the commandments were a big deal... but they never become so -real- until you are faced with either your own sin, or that of someone you love.. there are real reasons for them as guidelines in a Godly life.. they too are a covenant, much like marriage... and don't you worry about me losing myself, or hiding what is me behind Plan A.. It's taken a while but I'm getting the old swagger and witty retort back. I used to be the life of the party you know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

PM:
I didn't take it that way at all. Fighting for my son.. IMO.. -is- one of the things that will build respect... anger now, respect later.. for me with my wife. Actually Dad touched on the subject with WW on the phone before he got hung up on Sunday night.. saying something to the effect of.. So you're mad at James for trying to get DS... what would -you- do if you were in his shoes? You'd do -exactly- the same thing..



This is a HUGE reason why I can't be going and giving up right now.



I appreciate this more than I can tell you.

I've read your story.. a couple times actually.. and figured you'd probably understand where I'm at..

Ok.. on to Ol 2long:


Yup.. read it, printed it out.. it's on my dresser at home right now actually.. along with several individual posts I've culled from these boards that give me the inspiration I need in those quiet moments where I'm down, depressed, and feel like giving up... I can't thank you enough for directing me to it.

I've been strongly considering talking to Jennifer and/or Steve, but have relied mostly on the IC in our parish.. She was our pre-marital counselor.. was the head of the Coping with Cancer group that my wife volunteered to help with, as well as the Mom's Ministry that my wife participated in before she was kinda excluded from due to starting to work full time... this woman -knows- my wife.. and she is familiar with MB concepts, though hasn't researched them or made them the central concept of her practice.. she focuses mostly on coping and faith issues.. but she's been good to talk to.. and while she doesn't give me advice or a plan like Jennifer or Steve might, she is helping me.

I still may give the Harleys a shot.. I've got some extra duckets lying around seeing as I didn't owe the $1400 in support for September and October that I put back in case I did.. I was planning on spending it on the kids and starting a college savings plan for DS.. I think I could divert a little to trying to save his family too.. couldn't hurt.

----------------------

In other news.. the teriffic kind.. I have the Christmas visitation schedule..

I have DS from 12/21 at 8PM until 12/31 at 7PM with her getting him on Christmas from noon until 9PM.. all that is left to work out is pick ups and dropoffs.

That's over a week with my boy!!!! I'm elated that there will be that consistency for him for that period of time.. I'm so looking forward to being able to enjoy him playing with his toys and enjoying Christmas and the miracle of Christ's birth with me.. and it works out the Christmas day thing too, because my side of the family is doing Christmas Eve.. WW and I always did Christmas morning.. and the IL's this year are actually doing theirs on the 26th due to Dad having to work the holiday... THIS IS GREAT NEWS!!!

Thanks be to God!!

PS.. I'm also very guilty of speculating how difficult this stretch is going to be for WW.. especially with the added pressure of the IL's and not being with her side of the family on Christmas..

PPS.. Yes, I am -very- cautious right now of holiday attempts at reconciliation.. particularly given this arrangement.
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Babyof11.. if you need help with posting your thread, feel free to let me know and I'll try to walk you through it best I can.