from my first hand experience, my ex now tells me that she wished I had tossed the OM through the front door when I caught them together. I always regretted not doing it at that time...although I got the chance later and took it.

I guess it is just a different way of looking at things. I just believe that his wife is waiting for James to satnd up and be counted...rather than go along for this nightmare ride she has put him on.

Back to just reading for me. I don't want to get into debates or lecture...just offered my opinion.

I agree that WB and your WW need to know that it is not OK with you for him to come to your son's functions. They are not married and you are not divorced.

I think you need to express this without LBing.

I guess it's too late to express your feelings about this now.

But, if an event comes up in the future, I would let her know.

I agree that THE WARRIOR/KNIGHT that I've been encouraging for you James is ATTRACTIVE to a woman..

Beat your chest next time and let her know that it is NOT OK...

Princess SG can give you lessons given her performance at the tournament last week!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Don't get me wrong MEDC.. I do appreciate you hanging around.

I -do- understand your POV.. I guess I'm just a different person. I'm aiming my efforts in a different direction than being 'upset' about things.. I think part of showing the better part of me is to be the better man about things.. which isn't all that difficult at this point.

James is standing up and being counted.. just in a slightly different way... this is self respect and showing dignity over the long term.. I realize now it's a marathon, not a sprint.. and I think given that.. I'm being as effective as I can.

No worries man.. not trying to debate or argue with you. Again.. I do appreciate your input and opinions.

SG: Your spirit and successes with Mimi's help are really fueling me right now.. you've got plenty of your own, but I'll keep sending prayers your way.

Weekend -will- be great despite DS being sick.. just means more cuddle time with Daddy, and a reinforcing that I am here for him.. he's passed out on the floor in front of Shark Tale right now.. such my little angel. I love him so much.

Ok.. well if that's the consensus..

I'm open to suggestions on how you would have handled that situation.. what to say given the givens?

I mean.. the guy was pretty much completely marginalized in this encounter.. I'd almost like to see that get reinforced over and over again..

I dunno..

Next encounter is going to be DSD's Christmas program on Tuesday... FIL is going to be showing up with me.. at least that's the plan.

Who do the blue and white horse shoes play today?

Not sure.. they tell me there's some football team out in Oakland..

*shrug*

Scrimmage game I think.. maybe another bye week we snuck in.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You asked for suggestions...so here goes...

Don't go along with WW. I wouldn't give a rats butt if it upset her or not, I would have stood in OM's face and told him to leave that building immediately. James, I am the type of guy that would not stand for that....you stood there having a conversation with your wife while her boyfriend stood close by. It isn't the OM that is being marginalized James...it is you. Get in the guys face....I mean right in his face and if need be...make a scene. The vast majority of people would be appalled at your wife's behavior and would understand your anger. I wouldn't care if my son was standing there....I would let him see me fight...physically if necessary...for my family.

If I were another parent there and knew you guys, I would be shocked at your willingness to go along for this ride. I would not look at you and think what a wonderful show of restraint and courage you are displaying. A display of anger in the face of extreme cruelty is not only called for...it is proper.

Nothing will be less attractive to your WW than to see the OM be a coward when confronted by her knight of a husband. Right now James...even though we know it is NOT reality...who looks like the coward? Who has stood there and been physically (by the OM dad) and emotionally assaulted and not responded? I doubt very highly that your WW is seeing your true intent here. I think what she is most likely seeing is a man that has decided to lay down and accept his fate.

IMHO, if you are going to go down....go out fighting. I understand what you are doing James...but look at it from an outsiders perspective...if you were the WS would you want your spouse to just accept it...or fight? I know what I would want.

Hey...been awhile since I checked in with you.

I don't want to argue either. I think what MEDC said about his ex says more about HER than the appropriate strategy for you to take. His ex said it would work, I'm guessing, for the same reason high school girls like to see boys fight over them. Immaturity. MEDC didn't recover the relationship for a reason (hint...not MEDC).

My take and I've advised this several times before.

Give him sh[color:"white"][/color]it eating grins/smirks. Like you know something he doesn't know. Don't let anyone else see you do it. Maintain complete innocence if questioned on it. Perhaps HE will react.

OM's are balls of insecurity. They KNOW they deserve to have their butts kicked and are always on the defensive for when that moment may occur. Plus....you and WW and the kids all "family-like" in front of him makes him more insecure particularly through the holidays. Other than the smirk, exclude him as much as possible. With a subtle smirk who knows what he'll think but he'll be thinking.

Then...ww has to deal with insecure, desperate OM the rest of the day, week, month. He'll be speculating incessantly at this new body language you are DIRECTING at him VERY passive aggressively. A smirk, he'll think...what's Jamesus got up his sleave...is he speaking to WW behind MY back...are they reconciling...maybe he and his army are going to jump me this week...I can read it in his face. Something is UP and I HAVE to know what it is.

Just an idea. Your mileage may vary. Worst case scenario HE attacks you physically and then YOU can go out and get a restraining order against him or, in the alternative, politely BEAT HIM DOWN in self-defense, maintaining YOU did nothing to provoke anything. You "smiled"...so what, it's Christmas.

Mr. Wondering

I hope your Colts beat the heck out of the Raiders.

Guess who's favorite team is Oakland, and I believe the game is on. He screams when he watches the game. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Further....

When you do this try to position yourself above him and/or between him and the exit.

You are innocently and passively provoking him and the more boxed in an cornered he feels the more likely HE will act out of control. Provoking a fight is not necessarily my goal. I'd be focusing on causing unrest in their affair so it ends sooner than later. If a fight breaks out...so be it...but you are merely defending yourself for an out of control OM and getting yourself more ammunition for YOUR custody case. IMO, winning battles is fruitless if you lose the war.

Not to attack MEDC's opinion, his is a route a don't deny any man taking, if he chooses. However, don't do anything like he suggests in front of your son lest you will hear about it again and again for years in every court matter regarding custody. To the court...you won't be "teaching" him anything...you will appear an out of control father that scared the crap out of their child by losing control of yourself, and selfishly taking vengence directly in front of him. IMO, to the court...that "lesson" will not be considered in "his best interest".

Mr. Wondering

Hey Mr. W. I think you make some good points regarding the custody issue.
I will respectfully disagree about the less aggressive approach with the OM though I find your approach has a good amount of devilishness to it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I haven't recovered my relationship because, as you know, I have CHOSEN not to. Instead I have recovered my self respect...and my son. I decided for my own self esteem that she did too much to ever accept her back. That doesn't stop her from trying to win me back(and her son)...all the time...but my(our) eyes are always open to what she has done and is capable of.
I never suggested losing control, although I know you are right about how the courts might see it. But I would certainly NOT stand there without at least telling the OM to leave in the building. I do not think it is an immature response...in fact, I find it to be the MOST mature response given the circumstances.


"Give him ****** eating grins/smirks. Like you know something he doesn't know. Don't let anyone else see you do it. Maintain complete innocence if questioned on it. Perhaps HE will react.

OM's are balls of insecurity. They KNOW they deserve to have their butts kicked and are always on the defensive for when that moment may occur. Plus....you and WW and the kids all "family-like" in front of him makes him more insecure particularly through the holidays. Other than the smirk, exclude him as much as possible. With a subtle smirk who knows what he'll think but he'll be thinking.

Then...ww has to deal with insecure, desperate OM the rest of the day, week, month. He'll be speculating incessantly at this new body language you are DIRECTING at him VERY passive aggressively. A smirk, he'll think...what's Jamesus got up his sleave...is he speaking to WW behind MY back...are they reconciling...maybe he and his army are going to jump me this week...I can read it in his face. Something is UP and I HAVE to know what it is."

I do like these ideas!

I like your ideas, too, Mr. W.

I wonder about Mrs.W's take on this,though.

Wouldn't be admirable in her (WW's) eyes to know that James is expecting her to respect him..for her to know that HE IS A MAN that does not accept the OM's presence there?

Thank you both for chiming in.. I LIKE this idea.. and honestly I think I've been doing that.. at least a little.

Yeah.. I TOTALLY agree that he's sincerely insecure about the whole situation. I've studied body language, and can read it just in his proximity issues with WW when I'm around.

Honestly.. what typically happens is I'll give him a fairly 'hard' look right in the eyes, smirk slightly and then I'm right back to smiling genuinely at my wife and our son.. this past Friday was a perfect example of that... I like this idea.. He didn't say a word after I did it... I'll make it a little more pronounced next time.. like 'something is up'.. I imagine I'll have occasion to do it Tuesday.

Tuesday night is WW's Christmas program.. FIL is going to meet me at my place and we're going to go/sit together for the show.. fireworks may or may not ensue.. we really don't care.. we're there to support and show love for DSD. I can only imagine what the fallout will be.. but you know what.. she can deal with that.. not my problem... she's not talking to her family at this point.. they really don't care at this point if she knows that we're still close.

MEDC.. I think the concept you have of asking him to remove himself is a good one.. though I'm sure the message can be conveyed a number of ways.. he likely won't comply either way.. but the body language and the knowing smirk then sidelining him from the conversation/interaction over time I feel will get the same message across and build the same frustration.. particularly when WW doesn't purposefully go out of her way to bring him back into it... which she hasn't to this point.

Then.. to top that off.. -if- she's sharing emails with him like the one from yesterday.. well, that just adds to things doesn't it?

I can't deny that I do have a sometimes overwhelming desire to give him the beatdown he so richly deserves.. but if I can subtly provoke him into it.. well.. all the better. I personally think throwing down with the boy at this point will be far more damaging than a PBL which many have been quick to discourage.

That all having been said.. THANK YOU BOTH (Mr.W and MEDC) for the advice.. it's good stuff and stuff I'll make mine and put to good use.. you guys are tremendously helpful.

SG: Oh really? His favorite team is Oakland? No wonder he's depressed..

Post deleted by skinsgal

I like it too, MrW's ideas that is.

Go even further with the body language. Block him out physically when he is present, get your back and your W's back towards him when possible, so that you, your WW and chilren are interacting and he is obviously in the background. Make it physically apparent just who the FAMILY is here, and who is the outsider. Force him to try to communicate from the background, and if he tries to physically enter the group, make it difficult by positioning your body. If he gets too close, turn and say quietly "hey man, I'm talking to my wife and kids, wait over there" and point a ways off.

I agree a fight in front of the kids would be expecially disasterous, but if you can get him to take a swing at you, that would be beautiful! Call the cops immediately and get your lawyer all over it!

Yesterday was kind of interesting... the exchange at least.

WW showed up, again about 5-10 minutes late.. course the roads were kinda messed up with the snow and ice.

I had spent some time in the early afternoon shoveling snow off the drive so she'd be able to easily get to the door without having to wade through the white stuff.. but apparently God had other plans. At some point after DS and I had gone back inside, the plow came through the housing edition and pretty much ruined a good 10 foot patch of land at the end of my driveway.

Wonderboy didn't bother trying to get onto the drive.. just pulled in front of the house. I opened the door to see the reason and went to get my shoes on. I was going to take DS out to the van, but by the time I got to the door she was there. I looked her in the eyes and a second passed.. she nodded to me, maintaining eye contact.. and there was.. well.. warmth there, it wasn't the cold hard looks I'd gotten in the past.. and she didn't seem to be in a hurry to look away. DS kinda broke the 'moment' by asking for one of his cars that he thought he left. I smiled to him and told him all the cars he brought were in his bag, but he started insisting on going back in (I tell you he's a sneaky kid.. I know what he was trying to do.. he's been trying to 'stall' the last handful of times she's come to pick him up) She finally stopped him and told him that he could get it next time, that it'd only be a couple of days until he was here again.. and that they really didn't have time to wait.

She looked back to me and sort-of half smiled and I asked how she was doing.. how DSD was doing and got a 'fine' on both counts.. she turned to head back down the walk to the van and I noticed Wonderboy watching intently.. but then I noticed something sticking out of her hair. I said 'Hey.. you know you've got a pen in your hair..' and she stopped and started reaching around.. and I reached up and helped her find it.. and I think she was ok with at least that contact.. she pulled it out and said 'Oh.. heh.. forgot about that.' and I grinned as she put it right back where it was before.. noticing details again.. paying attention..

I told her to be safe, and asked how the roads were.. she stopped and turned fully to me to tell me the main roads were fine.. her body language was much more relaxed.. I think the current tack at the very least.. especially with him 'farther' away on the street than in the drive let her feel a little 'safer' talking to me.. even about stuff that didn't really matter... It's a little victory at least to see her 'relax' a little in my presence again..

I'm not getting hopes up or think that this in any way changes anything.. but it was a 'nice' moment in the midst of all of this. I just prayed that something in the exchange touched her.. and left it at that.. I'm going to keep on keepin on.

Nice moment? she left with WB to go back to his house with your son. There are no nice moments in that James...no victories when your wife leaves you home, with your child..to go back to the enemy camp.

Have you ever told her that you NEVER want WB to be there for the exchange?

How do you think she would react if you said to her ..."WW, you don't need to leave...we can send him away and work towards recovering our family?" What would she do James?

I imagine she'd immediately throw up the walls again, and walk away..

She and her guy and his family would get a nice little laugh out of me still chasing after her.

I would suggest telling her that WB is NEVER to come to your house again for the exchange. It is HIGHLY disrespectful of her to do this.

I don't understand where the chasing her part comes in from i don't want WB around for the exchange...

That's setting a boundary...simply staing: I would prefer, if you don't mind, that you come without WB for the exchanges...

Just my 2 cents...thinking....