OK one of the many repeated questions in threads here are about worrying if it's LBing when the BS spies on the WS or when the BS exposes the adultery.

Neither is a Love Buster.

As long as contact continues with the OP there is nothing wrong whatsoever with the BS contacting whomever they choose to contact to expose the adultery and to object to the adultery. What I told my WH was if it was OK for HIM to talk to, spend time with, have sex with... the OW then it certainly was OK for me to merely talk to her (and her relatives, boss, friends). Frankly I think it's ridiculous how many BS's allow their WS to bully them into not exposing when obviously it was the WS who had/has inappropriate contact with the OP which started the whole mess!!!

And there is nothing wrong with trying to verify whether or not contact between the adulterers is still taking place. The adulterous spouse destroyed any existing trust and will simply have to put up with monitoring as long as it takes the BS to trust them again.

The simple fact that the WS gets angry because of exposure and monitoring for accountability does not make them LBing. If the definition of Love Busting were ANYthing that makes the WS angry then we'd pretty much all have to just shut up and put up with their adultery because if they can't cake-eat they will get angry, right?

And anyway (as is often noted here) you are to avoid LBing the RECOVERING spouse, not the WS who is still involved in the adultery.

MM,

A Ws who objects to exposure..... is babbling. What the BS needs to make sure is the reason for the exposure remains pure as possible. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Well, my answer to that is that I object to WS's sneaking around and lying...not to mention the cheating. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The BS has an obligation to them selves to monitor for contact, deceit, lying, embezzlement, and general evil conniving.

Snooping occurs after the trigger of “gut feeling” has kicked in usually, it’s not something that you just wake up and spontaneously do one day.

There is no shame in that at all.

But if you are in plan A, doing your best to be attractive to your spouse, then you don’t want to rub it in their face that you are snooping. (i.e. mulling through cell phone bills right in front of them).

You just let them know that you will do anything in your power to find the truth. That’s the statement that you make every time they challenge snooping.

You offer yourself to them as an open book also to be a model for transparency.

If they are in an active A then they know it, you don’t have to convince them of their adultery.

Probably the most important thing about snooping is to NEVER let the WS know where you get your information from!

They are at a level of paranoia that will let their mind spin out of control, and that is a rare ally for a BS.

You do everything that you can to protect your sources and just use the information as needed for exposure and for validation of NC.

Never forget that the whole goal of “validation through research” is to determine the state of a challenged marriage.

Lovebusters are:
Disrespectful judgments,
Angry outbursts,
Independent behavior,
Dishonesty,
Selfish demands,
and Annoying habits.

And validation through research is not just appropriate during a WS’s A. It’s also a tool that will be used for trustworthiness in the future, so it will be around for a while in the M.

I told my WW this: Which is these two is morally wrong, you cheating on me, or me verifying that you are cheating on me and telling others in an attempt to get you to stop? She usually shut up after that.

Plank:

I agree about protecting your source if it can add to the adulterers paranoia. In my case when my WH demanded to know how I found out OW's identity I told him to look around his office (he was calling me from work)... I said people may pretend to you and OW's faces that they don't object to your adultery but some people do object. Then he had to wonder if one of his coworkers spilled the beans... and WHICH one... Actually I had found the OW's phone number from WH's cellphone bill, THEN called a couple of his coworkers, who then confirmed he was involved with OW, and one of them did tell me her name but I had already gotten her name (and address) from a reverse search on her phone number. But I didn't reveal all of that to WH.

Also, the woman who worked at the place our furniture was stored told me that my WH (she didn't know he had already moved out) had come by the storage place with some young 'trophy wife' looking gal in his new truck. She asked me if my WH was having a midlife crisis or something! LOL I told her I already knew he was involved with an OW but thanked her for telling me. (And then I had her change tha password for the storage unit so my WH no longer had access to it! I said it was bad enough the OW was sleeping with my husband but I certainly wasn't going to allow WH to possibly get my bedroom set out of storage so OW could sleep in it!) AND THEN I told my WH what the lady at the storage unit told me - including the part about her thiinking he was having a midlife crisis and the OW being way too young for him. Evidently his involvement with the OW was a source of embarrassment to him after all...

But in some cases I see people failing to expose at all because they don't want their source/monitoring revealed. In that case, at some point the benefit of gathering more information, of being able to continue monitoring, has to be weighed against the loss of the benefit of exposure.

I personally prefer to expose shortly after adultery has been confirmed and to continue monitoring and exposing as best as possible even if WS becomes more careful about covering tracks.

If the adulterous spouse knows they can count on you to keep their nasty little secret they will be more likely to be emotionally, verbally, or even physically abusive with the BS. The adulterous spouse often tries to gaslight the BS, to convince them their suspicions are unwarranted, that they're just imagining everything, or that they should just accept the adultery... The BS is too isolated pre-exposure, isolated from support, isolated from allies who will put pressure on the adulterers to knock it off, isolated and exposed to pressure and fog-'logic' from the WS.

I know that WS often promise to end it, claim contact has stopped, and the BS is tempted to keep their source secret, and therefore stall exposure just so they can verify whether or not contact has stopped. But that rarely works in favor of the BS IMHO. Just as Plan A alone rarely ends adultery, the BS alone trying to end the adultery, without the help of others because of exposure, is not usually effective. Maybe it's OK to delay exposure, to give the WS a first chance to keep promises of no contact... But I don't see the logic in delaying exposure once the WS breaks the no contact promise even once. Further monitoring would just confirm what you've already verified: the WS is lying and plans to continue the adultery.

I think the sooner exposure happens the better - just rip that band-aid off!

I agree with this very much. What is the point of snooping if you aren't going to use that information against the affair? Voyeurism? If one isn't going to use the intel they gather, then why bother? As far as giving away sources, often it is very possible to protect that source. Its not like they have to PROVE there is an affair to the affairee, for example. You don't have to PROVE what they both already know. Nor does one have to have an admission from a liar to know what is true.

That being said, sometimes it does become necessary to produce evidence to convince OTHERS. It might be impossible to protect the resource in such events, but still it must be done. Because the GOAL here is to BUST UP THE AFFAIR, not to perpetually snoop on the WS.

When I confronted my H, I did not produce evidence or give away my source. I simply TOLD him [versus asking him, NEVER ASK, just TELL] that I knew XYZ and threw enough detail out there so he would understand I knew. When he asked for my source, I told him it was none of his damn business.

Another common objection, [this is usually from the younger ones who still act like teenagers <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />] is "YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO INVADE MY PRIVACY." Now you just know they also said the same thing to their mommy when they were a high school sophmore. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Anyway, my answer to that is that is no one is entitled to the privacy to have an affair. No one is entitled to the privacy to destroy another person behind his back.

MelodyLane:

You posted:
"Another common objection, [this is usually from the younger ones who still act like teenagers ] is "YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO INVADE MY PRIVACY." Now you just know they also said the same thing to their mommy when they were a high school sophmore. Anyway, my answer to that is that is no one is entitled to the privacy to have an affair. No one is entitled to the privacy to destroy another person behind his back."

IMHO this has got to be one of the lamest things a WS says to object to monitoring LOL And I agree it reeks of immaturity, junior high level even. I also think that soemtimes the adulterers are both sort of pretending that their BS's are their parents trying to break up their 'soulmate' romance, they maybe have some sort of mommy/daddy issues view of marriage? Or maybe they fantazise they're like Romeo and Juliet? (dramatic hand to forehead) 'star-crossed-lovers'... SHEESH!

MM, I wrestle with what looks and smells like hypocrisy every day while trying to undermine WS's A...thanks for your clarity...

Plank, just read your post, along with your signature links...thank you so much for bringing into such sharp focus the myriad of feelings that come with being in this incredible crossroads of life. Your words have given me some much-needed calm on a fine Sunday morning...

I digress about exposure being the sole point of snooping during the entire course of your M.

I keep my eyes wide open with toothpicks even now days to make sure that I don’t miss a damn thing.

I could probably tell you about every breath taken in our house and every leaf that has severed anchor and drifted to the ground in our yard since I have become aware, of being aware.

I will pick up my W’s cell phone and look to see who’s called every once in a while.

I do hold her accountable for her time, but not in an overbearing sense. Just from a practical viewpoint. Like I consciously make certain that things add up in the time line.

But we may have not gotten into this position if I had challenged her early on in her Wayward mentality before so much damage had been done. If I had of been holding her to a sense of accountability for truthfulness and expressed awareness then maybe things would have turned out different. Who knows.

The timing of exposure is critical. I believe that.

It’s a BS’s most likely mistake to run off half cocked and half assed expose.

Most of us really don’t get a lot of practice at exposure thank goodness.

I very much agree with Plank on this subject. I do some occasional snooping and pretty much always know what is going on around here. My H and I talk several times on the phone throughout the day and are extremely close so it would be almost impossible for one of us to carry on a secret second life. We have the same bank account and always know how much the other spends and WHERE.

Like Dr Harley says, "I am in favor of as much snooping as possible." He also said it is not lack of TRUST that destroys marriages, but lack of CARE. Like Plank said, many of us would not have had to endure an affair if we had been snooping the first place.

Ditto Plank and ML.

Plank I most ESPECIALLY agree with your speculation and wonder if I had been so obviously aware and requiring accountability BEFORE there was an A if there would have ever been one at all.

I think there is a connection between that wayward mentality [which is excruciatingly similar to a surly teen angst session]/ lack of accountability AND the belief that you aren't cared for.

It makes a strange sort of sense that even though it is intrusive...asking where are you going..with who..when will you be home...etc communicates CARE.

This is the sort of thing that is encouraged in parents of teens for that express purpose...not that a spousal relationship should be parental...but nevertheless I can see how ME not knowing where you are or what you are doing could give YOU the impression that you don't matter to me.

I doubt very much that it's The Answer but I think it plays a role.

Noodle, I do think you're on to something here!

I do remember feeling uncared for at times in my marriage because my WH was usually SO distracted with entertaining and flirting with OW at social events that I was left feeling abandoned, rejected even. I remember telling him that I felt like even if I took all my clothes off at a party and left with another man he probably wouldn't even notice! Of course I never did that but I knew he had no idea what I was doing at parties, whom I was talking to, or even where I was in the room. I DID wish he would have been concerned enough about me to worry even teensy bit about what I might be up to!

Oh and LOTS of times throughout our marriage he would be telling somebody about some place or event we had been to together but if I said something about it he would say: "Oh, you were there too?" or "Oh yea, I forgot you were there"!

Weirdness!

Also, one of the OW (that he supposedly 'only' had an EA with) was the wife of one of our best friends; the husband was a coworker and they were a couple we spent almost all of our free time with. Well, the wife and my husband were spending time together alone and 'just happened' to 'fall in love' with each other... 'unplanned' of course... This OW's husband was very loving and protective of his wife. He pampered her, bought her expensive things, tolerated public reprimands from her, and literally hovered over her, always trying to hug her. She HATED him hovering around her and would yell at him in front of us to get away from her! But at the same time she basked in all the attention my husband was giving her, thought everything my husband said and did was absolutely charming or hilarious... Anyway, I remember wishing MY husband would treat me the way her husband treated her. My husband not only did not hover over me but would get up and move away if I even tried to sit next to him at a party.