I noticed something you said in Skingals thead and now I too am curious about the same thing she asked you:

"How do I set H up so the WH will be destroyed and the H still standing?"

This was in reference to responding to fog-babble I believe.

I RARELY have contact with WXH anymore but when I do it's STILL fog-fog-fog (even several years post end of adultery)

WXH was here a few weeks ago when he drove middle daughter to college and will be here again at end of month when he comes to get youngest daughter to go to a wedding (I honestly can't figure out why anyone in his family even bothers with marriage though - 7 kids - 7 divorces so far - 8 if you count his parents divorce)

I detest having to interact with WXH because he makes no sense whatsoever and is usually such an arrogant a$$.

But last time, when he was here to take daughter to college, he just said random stuff, nothing at all related to our marriage, the adultery, the divorce (because kids were in the room). What he did say was unusual for him and out of context - weirdness...

I was rather blunt and probably even a bit rude with him. I only let him come in because he said he had to use the bathroom (long drive here). But then he sat down on the sofa uninvited and tried to involve me in chit-chat... It was taking daughter a long time to cart all her stuff out to his vehicle... My responses were short in both senses of the word. Oh well, I wasn't planning on having to interact with him at all. And even if WH is maybe starting
to feel some regrets I don't deal well with vague bs. The things he said and did as betrayal were VERY specific, blunt, intense and cruel. I will not even acknowledge anything vague as a reconciliation attempt! IMHO it's extremely insulting when the WS assumes they can weasel their way back into the BS's life in some easy (for them) way. Easy come - easy go. I KNOW I made it much too easy for him to reconcile in the past and that's a big part of why he was a serial adulterer, had so many failed attempts at ending it with last OW, and assumed it was OK for him to really do nothing for recovery after past adulteries.

I honestly can't even imagine what it would take for me to even consider taking him back! I believe he should do and say a TON of things just because they are the right thing for him to do for compensation and to help us deal with soem of the consequences of his selfish choices - but NOT because he should have any hope of them leading to me even being his friend ever again!

Anyway, I don't remember reading before about the 'setting up' the WS in response to babble and was curious what that meant.

Orchid: Basically you learn to plan B the WS and plan A your H. This means you have to learn how to distinguish between your H and WS sightings.

One way I did this was to tell the WS.... to check it WS attitude at the curb. When he came to the house to pick up his mail or stuff, he was required to knock and we would let him in and if I even noticed a whiff of the WS stench he was out the door as is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Worked for me.

This meant he couldn't unload any venom and I felt safer. There is more but I have to go to a women's business expo this morning. Got lots t/d. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I will check back this evening.

take care,
L.

Excellent way of putting it Orchid ! "reward" non foggy behaviour by paying close attention to the spouse during it and investing in response to it.

Stonewall, muffle and ignore wayward behaviour.

It may seem like reward-training a toddler, but then again of it works on REAL children, maybe it does also on childish WS ?

Well then I probably blew it when WXH was here because I prety much ignored him and even probably rude to him.

The thing is I think he was maybe trying to reconnect... He didn't seem like pompous WS, more like nice hubby... (BUT 'nice hubby' in his case is mostly just con-artistry anyway...)

He was trying to make chit-chat, even trying to bring up 'our' past, pre/between-adulteries. But as typical for him he was doing it in such a vague way that it has no effect on me wanting to be 'friends' with him.

His betrayal was SO SPECIFIC and profound and cruel that it really pi$$e$ me off when he assumes he can get away with just pretending nothing ever happened, that he can get back in my good graces without even having the decency to acknowledge he did anything wrong, let alone apologizing for it!

Ever since he moved out I had some pretty serious boundary issues with him too so him plopping down on my sofa was an LB to me IMHO, it was disrespectful and may have been his way of showing me that he will do as he damn well pleases in MY home! Also, all through the adulteyr he DEMANDED that even after the divorce I HAD TO be 'friends' with him!
So naturally, him indicating in any way that he thinks he can be friends with me MINUS repentance and compensation for what he did, is still a boundary-buster IMHO.

Still he did sound sort of sheepish and ashamed, definitely not self-assured or cocky. And even when I responded curtly he didn't seem to get angry in response...

He was trying to start conversations about the nik-naks in my home... mentioned that he had the other wooden owl sculpture that went with the one I had on a bookshelf... (no comment from me)... then he pointed to something else and said: "I remember that thing, where did WE get that?" And I blurted out: "WE didn't - that belonged to Danny (previous boyfriend) and I"! Even THAT (which was VERY uncharacteristic of me - just came out before I could think twice about it) didn't get a negative response from him! I was also wondering if he was looking around at MY (not 'ours' anymore) and maybe wanting to take some of it to his place (what another poster here referred to as the 'Wal-Mart' syndrome). WXH has done that in the past - asked for specific things to furnish/decorate his place and I have repeatedly todl him "NO!!!" (I think it makes it easier for the WS to leave the marriage when they assume they can come back home anytime they want and/or take things from the home they abandoned to deck their new place out with objects rom the past so their new place can feel like home)

Also, when I first went to the door he said: "Hi Judy" which may sound like nothing BUT he rarely called me by my name during our marriage. He usually just started talking to me without using my name at all, used a nickname, or referred to me as 'mom' (to our kids). During the latest adultery he referred to me as his X, even before we were legally separated, let alone divorced. So it was sort of weirdness to hear him say my name. ANd he sounded sort of choked up when he said it, or very unsure of himself or nervous. I didn't respond or even look directly at him.

Anyway, whatever, if he has something to say indicating he maybe has had a change of heart and has de-fogged, he needs to make that very clear instead of vague.

I laid my heart on the line for him - over an EXTENDED period of time - and I won't accept anything less in return.

Plus WXH made some totally random, out-of-the-blue, comment about how he was no good at playing guitar. I gave no response whatsoever. I don't know why he said it or what he expected as a response. It is extremely rare for WXH to make a negative comment about himself - his insensitivity towards others is surpassed only by his extreme sensitivity if anyone tries to give him even the most loving and careful constructive criticism. And anyway, he is VERY GOOD at playing guitar. His guitars are very important to him. At a MC session once he went into a rage describing how he had destroyed one of his guitars because he was angry at me. He growled through gritted teeth: "My guitar was my most precious possession" and was obviously furious that I had 'made' him smash it to bits... (BTW that MC seemd to agree with WH that he had a right to be so furious at me, and kept telling me that the most important thing for me to do was to protect my husband's reputation...)

Again, WXH was acting very abnormally on last visit, don't know why, but am pretty sure I did not respond as he maybe expected.

I have been dealing with the same issues with my XWH. I would like to take his olive branch of friendship and beat him to death with it. I am curious as to how I would break through the barrier of what I feel is the price of admission here. Remorse. If a WH never shows any true remorse, mainly by trying to "weasel back into your life" without so much as a word dealing with their infidelity, IMHO any friendly gestures should be tempered with indifference or hostility. I would never cheapen the price of my affection by doling it out to XWH just because he feels it is time to "forgive and forget". Or am I misunderstanding what you are trying to say Orchid? Are you saying that you reward WH with a return of friendliness only if they show you a hint of the old H, one who is remorseful and sincere? Otherwise it is "don't let the door hit you on the way out"?

LL & MM,

MM, I read your posts.... sounds like your H is trying to blame you for his issues. Mine blamed me when he threw his laptop on the floor and pieces of it flew into every room in our home.... yep... some pieces even flew inches from our son's head (he was 6 yrs old and watching TV at the time). I will never forget that incident. Even my son remembers it to this day.

At the time of the act was no time to reason with the raging WS. Instead I waited a long time..... when signs of my H would show up. It was brought up as a fear on my part. I never ever told him I was responsible for his acts. He raged because that laptop was how he communicated with the OW and the history was still accessible. WS' are quite protective of the A equipment. I knew it and at one point tried to keep the laptop in our home since is was 'community property'. LOL!! Still when he got raging, then it was better to let the beast take his 'bone' (aka: laptop) to his A den (rented room @ $850.00) so he could slobber over his A (vividly sick - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> ).

LL, in response to your question...what I mean by plan A your H and plan B the WS is just that. While you are in plan A you can do this. It is not a true Harley concept but if you think about it, it makes sense and in my case it worked.

Why? Because you want to give your real H the fighting chance. Usually the WS notices the changes in the BS and generally spins it as a 'temporary good change'. This allows the WS t/b a WS since in their sicko mind the BS good changes are only temporary. Still if you continue to be nice to your H when he does show up and learn to have a different standard/attitude when dealing with the WS, the message it gives is that you will NOT tolerate WS behavior in your presence.

Due to implementing this techinque I was even able to tell the WS to check his WS self (attitude) not at the front door but at the curb (public property). That way I didn't allow it even in our front yard. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> There was my protection barrier. He argued, I showed him the door or hung up on him. He later complied. He learned by my actions that I refused to communicate when he was in his WS mood.

The benefit was that I didn't have to stay in plan B long. He learned he COULD step out of the WS mode and be an acceptable H and father. This took time and required a lot of patience on my part. It also tore a big one in the A since this on and off stuff would start to show up in the interactions of the WS and OW. LOL!!! OW wanted me to feel like the OW but I wouldn't since I had removed myself from their games. Remember I choose NOT to interact with the WS.

I found that to be key to making changes that helped myself and my family. If that didn't work for my H, then I would also have to prepare to lose him but what was the real loss? A WS? I wanted to lose the WS, I wanted the WS destroyed. That was the ONLY way my real H could come back.

I used other techniques like Reverse Babble and other tools.... RH (radical honesty) and POJA came later.

Oh yea... I told him he had t/b happy when he was around us because for all the misery he caused us, he had better be happy. That tore a wild one into the A... LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Why? Because a true WS can't be happy in front of or to his family. You should have seen how his face would get deformed when he tried to smile. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Then I reminded him to show that 'same happy face' with the OW. LOL!!! Another kicker... why? Because WS' don't like to do what the BS tells them t/d. That one sent another whopper kick to the A. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hope this helps.

L.

OK I see what you mean now Orchid. Thanx. I guess I only had a superficial understanding of it before. So you Plan A your spouse when they show up as the former pre-A spouse; but Plan B the WS, right?

I remember reading the carrot and the stick (and referring other posters to it). I think at times during plan A I was sort of doing a carrot and stick thing. I do think that can be a very effective method and it would help the BS feel less like a doormat during Plan A (therefore less resentful and less liekly to LB). I do know that one of the difficulties in sticking to Plan A is that the WS tries to get the BS angry, tries to get them to argue... so with your approach the BS simply (and calmly) temporarily ends the contact with the WS until the former spouse emerges again. Maybe I should think of it as a mini Plan B?

It certainly would train the WS to treat the BS with respect. And it would protect the BS (and the children) from the hurtful things the WS says and does. It sounds like a very good idea for setting safe boundaries. There were times I did hang up on WS and did tell him he had to leave the home (or not come to the home - I did have a RO after he starting getting physically violent with me).

But in my case, with my husband's normal pre-A state (or rather between A's because he's a serial adulterer) former H sightings usually just mean he's turning on the con artist charm... Plus I've given him SO MANY chances in the past that I don't even know how much he'd have to do and for how long before I could even consider trusting him again. I certainly couldn't be friends with him if he didn't sincerely apologize to me AND our daughters for ALL that he's done. I know Dr. Harley's book says apology shouldn't be expected but I have allowed my WXH to reconcile many times in the past (with either no apology, minimal vague apology, or what turned out to be apology lies) and it never has turned out ot be a real recovery for us.

Compunding the problem is the fact that he has apologized sometimes in the past but his apologies were vague and general and then it would later be revealed that he wasn't sorry at all for specific things. There were ven times when he would accuse me of 'making' him apologize for things (because he basically feels entitled to have me in his life no matter how he treats me and without having to apologize for anything - so when he has to treat me right in order to keep me in his life he feels I am being manipulative...) There were many times when he would express bitterness and even rage because he had apologized to me for something he didn't truly feel sorry for. Usually when he would try to convince me that his adulteries were few or even non-existant (gaslighting despite PROOF) he would bring up times in our marriage when he was faithful. But the way he would talk about it made it obvious he resented being faithful, that it enraged him that he had resisted temptation on occasion! He definitely felt entitled to stray so if he didn't he would maybe feel as if I was 'controlling' him in some inappropriate way? When he talked about his faithful phases he said it in the same gritted teeth, clenched fists way he said: "I try SO HARD to be nice to you guys!"

Anyway, do you think I should have been more friendly towards my WXH when he was here? I was literally half awake because it was 6AM on a morning I didn't have to be at work until noon so I was wanting to sleep in... and in all honesty I wasn't prepared to have to talk to him at all or to have him come into my home. I'm nt exactly losing any sleep over it but I wonder if maybe I missed an opportunity and now he will be even less likely to make any attempt?

Don't stress. If that was to be your only window of opportunity, then it wasn't a great loss nor was it even a step towards recovery.

Chill....he has to work to come back. If so, it won't be his only attempt.

Get your rest. Take care of you and your family. Let him work and earn his way back to your heart.

take care,
L.

ORCHID:

Thanx for the input. Yup - that's how I feel - if that's the best effort he wants to make then that's just too bad for him (especially when compared to all the hateful thing he said and did trying to keep OW in his life). Once he was literally sobbing about how much he "loved" OW... Plus he would need to apologize and make compensation to my daughters too.

Also, it has been WH's claim all along that eventually I'd "come around" and we'd be friends or whatever... I think it's his ego that tells him he's entitled to my friendship minus an apology.

LIESLIES, I totally agree with what you posted too:

"I have been dealing with the same issues with my XWH. I would like to take his olive branch of friendship and beat him to death with it."

LOL YES! It really irks me the way WXH apparently believes he can even have a conversation with me as if nothing ever happened!!!

"I am curious as to how I would break through the barrier of what I feel is the price of admission here."

I KNOW for a fact that I let WH off WAAAYYYY too easy in the past! I have started a mental list of things he'd have to say and do before I would even consider giving friendship with him a chance, let alone getting more involved. And I mean this is a HUGE list!

And you bet on the list is that he would STILL have to send a no contact letter to the OW even though they broke up over two years ago. Because I would not be satisfied leaving it as it was, with her breaking up with him but him still choosing her over me. I would need to have him tell her that he made a big mistake choosing her over me that he now regrets.

And he would have to tell his family the truth about everything. Because I found out that with a former A he really spun the details with his family AND even lied to them about why we got back together! And when we had a false recovery with this last A he told his mother (and the OW) that I had 'made' him come home because I supposedly would not let our daughters even speak to him otherwise! I would NEED to know for a fact that he was telling his family the same thing he was telling us this time. I don't even know if he has even admitted to his family there really was an OW this time! The last I heard they still believed I was just 'crazy' and falsely accusing him, and had kicked him out of the house and gotten a restraining order for no reason! (The truth is he had been acting strange for a year, started moving in and out of the house, and became increasingly violent, resulting in the RO... and eventually I was able to confirm he was involved with an OW - I had PROOF but his family was not interested in the proof)

"Remorse. If a WH never shows any true remorse, mainly by trying to "weasel back into your life" without so much as a word dealing with their infidelity, IMHO any friendly gestures should be tempered with indifference or hostility. I would never cheapen the price of my affection by doling it out to XWH just because he feels it is time to "forgive and forget"."

Yup - I already let him weasel his way back in too easily and too many times in the past.

"Or am I misunderstanding what you are trying to say Orchid? Are you saying that you reward WH with a return of friendliness only if they show you a hint of the old H, one who is remorseful and sincere? Otherwise it is "don't let the door hit you on the way out"?

See in my case (WXH serial adulterer and "old H" is at best a charming con artist) I would need PROOF that WXH has totally changed and is nothing like his old self.

He would have to forget all that worrying that his family and friends think he's 'cool' and confess everything to them. I'm sick and tired of me and my daughters basically being the only ones who know he's got all these problems (serial adultery, lying, anger, ego, violence...) and him thinking his #1 priority is to protect his image. I would need to know that he cares more what WE (daughters and I) think of him more than he cares about what other people think of him.

Plus I would need to know that he was going to tell the truth and defend me instead of me having to counter his lies with the truth and defend my responses to the immoral choices he made. I'm just no longer in the mood to fight for my marriage - that would have to be HIS initiative, determination, and goal. And it would have to be much, much more than the "I'll try" attitude he brought to it in the past! IMHO he would have to become as anti-adultery as I am and he would have to do some research on how to repair the damage he's done and on how to affair proof his marriage, etc. I'm not in the mood to teach him a thing. All that's done in the past is taught him the right-sounding things to say so he can be a beter con artist. He has access to the internet - the info is out there and he could have accessed it all along instead of looking up porn and old girlfriends.

And then even if he did say and do everything that he SHOULD I don't even know if I'd want him back! It's just the right thing for him to do, to help us recover some from the damage he's done to us. He shouldn't expect anything for himself from doing something he should have done years ago!

"Compunding the problem is the fact that he has apologized sometimes in the past but his apologies were vague and general and then it would later be revealed that he wasn't sorry at all for specific things."

My XWH has done this in the span of one sentence. He will start out saying he is sorry for the way he behaved and his affairs and then finish up by saying.... BUT everything truly was all my fault because of X and Y things that I did that "made him" have an affair. It is then that I need to turn and shut the door in his face. That is not remorse. That is you got your stupid feelings hurt, couldn't you just admit you were the one who was wrong and then can we forget about it all? In his mind though, that amounts to an apology. How could I continue to feel hurt and slighted after his sincere heartfelt request for forgiveness? Clearly I am a heartless grudge-holding harpie. PLEASE. I think that I have not set a firm enough boundary here. I will try to get my point across better in the future.

Thanks for the advice Orchid. If I ever do catch a whiff of the old husband I will certainly do my best to reciprocate the friendly attitude. I just have not had the pleasure of witnessing this attitude yet. I am not sure if my XWH is capable of the higher order of thinking that is required to understand the pain and betrayal I feel by his affairs. Time will tell.

LiesLies:

YES! My WXH would do that too! But my WH's favorite version was to start out apologizing but then switch to being angry about the way I handled the A (no matter HOW I handled it). I think they might feel they should apologize (to get what they want in return?) but then (in my WH's case anyway) he would feel as if I had somehow demeaned him by 'making' him apologize. And that woudl make him angry.

In the case of my WXH, his role models for marriage were a mother who divorced his father for an OM (and more $) and a stepfather who was a pompous a$$ and emotionally, verbally, and physically abusive. My WXH probably will never find any fault whatsoever in those role models... and therefore feels entitled to treat me and my daughters poorly AND expect me to not only shut up and put up with it but to also act as if he's better than us, we don't deserve him. I guess he just couldn't wait to grow up and be just as pompous as his stepfather? And my NOT enabling it like his mother did is an affront to his manhood?

Well what is telling is that your H's mood is very much in line with a WS. Mine has a hard time apologizing also and recovery included a LOT of apologies! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> for him but if he wanted his family back, he had to learn humility. I didn't teach it to him, he had to learn it himself.

So if he has a hard time apologizing, let him know you know this and then walk away. He needs time for that eye and ear opening fact to sink in.

Say it, walk away and be patient. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

I see what you're saying Orchid.

I remember being encouraged when I read how long it takes a WS to get over the OP, how long it takes for the fog to clear and withdrawal to be over... and I also read something about a typical midlife crisis lasting 2-5 years... Well that was several years ago and if anything WH seems even more entrenched in his new image. And really the only thing that remains of his former self are the worst traits and problems.

I think because his abusive stepfather died (right around when he started involvement with OW) he somehow feels he's being 'loyal' to his stepfather by emulating him?

WH never had much of a relationship with his stepfather while alive, seriously I only saw stepfather talking to WH 2-3 times in 30 years! They didn't get along and certainly weren't close. Stepfather usually watched tv in a separate room from his family, didn't speak directly to them (except to grumble and criticize), came and went as he pleased without even telling his wife he was leaving, let alone where he was going and when he'd be back.

At his funeral one of his biological sons commented that they didn't really know him and that was because he was on so much of a higher mental plane than the rest of them! He made this remark because so many coworkers of his father had gotten up to speak at the memorial service, telling stories about how funny he was... a side of him his wife and children NEVER saw - very sad! He was an engineer - but I've worked with lots of engineers before and had never before met one who was so pompous and insulting! He REALLY believed his wife and children were beneath him and acted like he was disgusted or ashamed of them.

So I don't see much hope in WXH becoming the man I would want to be involved with because he apparently never was (just good at posing as one in past) and now aspires to be like his stepfather.

I do remember realizing at one point (years ago) that WH kept saying he would never forgive ME for certain things: contacting OW, telling his family about OW (although I don't see why he cared because they apparently didn't believe me anyway and even if they did they don't think adultery is wrong), getting a restraining order, etc. Basically, my unforgiveable sins are not shutting up and allowing him to keep OW and me both in his life... Anyway, I noticed that he was a very unforgiving person, that he holds grudges. He actually told me once that he was reminding himself to keep hating me! I did respond back to him once that since he claims to be a Christian he should know that he can't be forgiven by Christ if he refuses to forgive others. He just laughed at me... for the most part his Christianity is just an off and on part of his con-artistry, if/when it serves his agenda. For each time he has claimed to be a Christian there's a few dozen times he's laughed at Christianity.

And anyway, he doesn't even want forgiveness for anything he's said or done in his life. He prefers to just pretend that every choice he's made is either OK or not his fault. So he has zero use for forgiveness.

Weirdness... (a.k.a. sociopathy according to our family counselor)

All that goes around, comes around. Your H isn't a forgiving man, then he needs to know what that means.

Take a look at what he hold dear. It maybe hard to find but it c/b as obscure as a tool vs his family. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Sad but true. Find it and use it as an example. Could be asking him to hug his hammer or something silly then ask if it makes him feel good. He will probably say yes, then maybe he needs to sleep with it. LOL!!!

Btw, I did something similar to mine and it made the point. Very hard to sleep with a cell phone... LOL!!! See it was his cell phone that he guarded. So I made sure he kept it next to him, then would make sure it was on, then rang and left messages. LOL!!! Imagine.... well, he loved it sooo much. HA HA!!! He eventually got the point. I even offered to let him go out to the garage and sleep with his tools, since it appeared he took better care of them than us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

L.