Jerry, "love" is never an excuse to make yourself available to be destroyed. There is no virtue in staying in a marriage that is abusive when it destroys your mental health. Staying in an abusive, unloving marriage would destroy my mental health. Maybe it will not harm yours, only you know for sure, but that is something you have to take into consideration.

myschae
Thanks for sharing that with me.
sounds to me like you have two wonderful parents, who in spite of ill health, still hold each other in great esteem. I hope you recognise this and hold them in great esteem also.

This is what" in sickness and in health" is all about! How true your parents are to this vow. that is a wonderful and forfulling legacy and example they have left for you. You are very blessed by their trial. I know you probably don' t see it that way, but over time, I suspect you will.
God Bless you and your parents,

All Blessings,
Jerry

BTW, I do agree with Melody here.

The point of my story about my parents was that - for whatever reason it is - leaving would destroy my father faster than staying does.

Sometimes it just happens that way, I guess. I'm not suggesting it's a functional way to go through life or even a good or recommended choice. In fact... I was trying to get my father to leave and save himself. He's having major heart surgery next month and there's a good chance that his 'broken heart' will kill him.

When all the choices look bad... go back to what you really can or can't live with. If you go with that, you'll make the right decision. At least, that's what I believe.

Thanks for the kind words about my parents.

Mys

Hi Mel,
thanks for your words of wisdom. I'm sure that everything you have said has rung true; but for me, there is something much more.

You see, my M is no longer about me and my happiness, it's about my vows and covernant that I made with my God on His altar. I took my covernant with HIM very seriosly 37 and 1/2 years ago. A covenant, is not something that can be tossed aside like a broken promise.
Covernants can never be broken! They are accountable in heaven before God himself! Promises, on the other hand, are frequently broken, because promises are made between men, and broken by men.

It is no longer about me, or my happiness, it's about what God would have me do; "Love your wife as I love my church."

God loves his church in spite of her shortcomings, does he not? I am no different if I truly follow Him; I will follow and believe!!!!

All Blessings,
Jerry

Jerry, I will tell you this as a fellow believer in Christ that while I admire your devotion to the Lord, I am worried that your thinking is based in fear and not what the Lord would have you do. The logic which you used here could be a basis for any abused person to stay with the worst of offenders. IMHO, it is this almost obsessive love (please forgive the use of the term) for your wife that is helping to enable her behavior. I think she knows that she has you no matter what so is there really an incentive for her to take a hard look at herself and her transgressions right now...I say, no. In fact, if she knows that you will stand by her no matter what...do you really feel that you can believe that she won't hurt you again. In fact, since she has made it clear that absent the STD you would be living in the darkness of her sins...can you really believe that she hasn't strayed again with that mindset?

I don't know brother... I just think there comes a time when we have to look the evil in the face and confront it head on. If after 5 years your wife still insists that you are not due that level of honesty and she still doesn't take responsibility for her affair, what are you hoping to get out of this...an existence??? Sorry, I do not believe the Lord has meant for anyone to live life that way.

Just my 2 cents.

[quote] [My point is this, Jerry, if you have done everything possible to improve this situation, maybe the problem is that you don't charge enough admission and cheapen your value to your wife. If you settle for crumbs, that is what you will get. Maybe the answer is to RAISE THE BAR. I know that it changed my marriage. And if she won't pay the admission, then you are better off without her.
/quote] /

Wow mel, perhaps you're right. I just can't fathom(sp) a life without this women in my life. She has bee been my life since I was 17 years old. Absolutely crazy isn't it???
And yet here i am on this forumm, 30 something years later, talking about her infidelity.
What happened to my picture perfect life that i should find myself here?

Oh well, no different than anyone else that finds themselves here.


Goode to have you all here though,

God Bless,
Jerry

So if I read you correctly, you are asking, how long can I live with this? Or should I simply find a way to dismiss all in favor of forgiveness and reconciliation? Is this what you are proposing???

I remain confused,

All blessings,
Jerry

well, I am more of the thinking that something needs to be done about this. Counseling with the Harley's maybe? A weekend session with the Harley's? have her come here....something...anything to start getting through her wayward armour. Right now Jerry, I just don't see that you are safe and that she has turned from her sin in many ways.

But NO...most definitely NOT dismiss it in favor of forgiveness.

In the long run Jerry, I agree with Mel's post.

IMHO sometimes when you love a person soooo much that you will even put up with things you shouldn't accept, go without things you need and deserve...

Instead of staying at that level of love and just putting up with the status quo forever...

or instead of loving them less and giving up on them and leaving them...

You need to love them even MORE by requiring more from them, expecting and thereby motivating them to grow and love more themselves.

It's not as if what you want and need from your spouse would be a bad thing for her. In fact, IMHO it's sort of cruel to allow a person who is being hurtful to continue to be hurtful. It's sort of demeaning to NOT expect someone to be loving, kind, mature, rational, responsible. Basically your wife is claiming she is lacking in maturity, morality, mentality, sanity... and she wants you to agree with her so she can excuse her adultery.

But that definition of herself, if really internalized by her and endorsed by you should be far more degrading to her than the shame and guilt of her adultery. The adultery, once fully admitted and taken responsibility for, can be overcome and will not define her forever. The rationalization, designed to avoid taking responsibility, is something that will define her in a far less flattering way forever!

Hey Jerry

I believe that many FWS find excuses to cling to that gives them permission not to do the self-improvement and atonement that is required in response to their affair.

In your wifes case, if she is convinced she was an unwilling participant in her affair,why should she confront the motivations that led her that sin?

In my dear Squid's case, she is convinced she is a horrible person, and obviously this is an unchangeable personality trait that can't be changed, so she excuses her affair and lack of personal development since by the act that she is a bad person.

In both cases the FWS gives themselves permission toavoid uncomfortable self-improvement.

So that leave you and I with a stark choice : do we remain despite that, or leave using the excuse of infidelity ?

Just like you, Jerry. I have an unshakable love for this woman that far surpasses and logical dissection. My love for her is independent of how she is treating me or life's current travails or joys. I prayed on my KNEES during the nastiest part of her affair that God would take away this wholly undeserved love for Squid from me so I could righteously hate her and divorce her but he did not. That love just grew. A parallel I guess for Christs love for us? We don;t DESERVE it , but we get it regardless of sin.

In any case, Squid is no longer in an affair. She has remained entirely dark for more than 2 years now. She loves me, and is a better wife and mother than in many years. She is very sorry for her affair. There is no way , in good conscience, I could claim "adultery" as my reason for divirce right now.

But she has not and will not attend to my wounds that she caused because she is a "bad person".

Like you then I am left with a not wholly fulfilling marriage, with an unfairness in it, but I won't abandon my vows nor the woman I love over such a conceit as "marital dissatisfaction".

Some days I am very happy. Others all I see is the unfairness of my marriage. Managing the tension between acceptance and settling is a hard thing to do IME.

No advice, friend, just empathy.

Kind regards

Bob

Hi Bob and others,
I wanted to take this opportunity to personally thank ALL of you replied to my post yesterday. If I didn't reply to you personally, I apologise. My fingers jost don't type that fast, and it becomes very obvious as I try to type faster <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />.

You've all given me some much needed feedback in this area, and, I echoed your very thoughts in my head for a very long time.That being said, W and I had many discussions about what boundaries need to be in place to protect a M and keep it safe from predatory type people. My W has agreed and this has become a POJA amounst us that I will continue to monitor, now, and in the future. I didn't do a very good job of it in the past, whiched helped to contribute to the vunerability of our M. It won't happen again!

The control issue for me has been suggested by others in the past, including my IC, which I of course, dismissed as ludicrous. Telling an alcoholic that they desperately need to be in control of everything, carries with it an unequalled irony! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Nonetheless, during this horrific time, I had been sober for 16 years. Nice to get back there again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Thanks again to everyone for taking time out of your day to reply to me, truly, I thank you.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Woof woof !! Congrats, big man !! Them's hard yards ya done there !!

{{{{Jerry}}}}

Jerry,

Why does it matter to you whether or not she will take full responsibility for her affair? What is it that you are looking for?

Page 84, SAA

If the feeling of remorse is not actually felt by a spouse, I don't recommend a reluctant apology. I don't see any sense in mouthing words that don't reflect true feelings. Insincere words won't help marital recovery. IT IS THE NEW LIFESTYLE THAT THE COUPLE CREATES THAT WILL SAVE THEIR MARRIAGE.

Instead of focusing their attention on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and the future. They should NOT dwell on the affair, but focus on rebuilding their marriage. Everytime the affair is mentioned, love units are withdrawn from both love banks. So the less time spent talking about the affair, the better. The couple is already painfully aware of the mistakes they made and there is no value of being reminded of what they already know.

Pg 93, SAA

Have you ever tried to straighten out someone? We're all occasionaly tempted to do it. We usually think we are doing that person a big favor, lifting him or her from the darkness of confusion into the light of our superior perspective. If people would only follow our advice, we assume, the could avoid many of life's pitfalls.

But if you ever try to straighten out your spouse, to keep him or her from making mistakes, you are making a much bigger mistake. I call it a disrepectful judgement, and your disrespectful judgement withdraws love units, destroying love.

Jerry...

It does no good for you to look down from your lofty perch and think, "she should have known better" or "she should have had boundaries in place". What purpose does THAT serve? The past is done, and can't be undone. All you can do now is focus on the future.

So she feels she was a victim. That's OK. What boundaries are in place to ensure that she never becomes a "victim" again?? Has she revised her boundaries to exclude having men as friends? Has she promised never to drink again in the company of ANY man unless you, her husband, is present? Has she promised to NEVER again share personal thoughts or feelings with someone of the opposite sex? If that is her vulnerability, kind words and affirmation from the opposite sex, then she needs to go to extreme measures to protect herself (and thus you) from allowing any other man to ever get close again.

So, again, what exactly is it that you are looking for from her?

Everybody talks about "just compensation"...has she been willing to protect herself and your marriage for the last five years, and it's just the "blame thing" you are hung up on??


Beowulf

Fundamentally, when someone says I'm not fully responsible for making the choice to have an A, they are saying that certain events, environments, scenarios, etc. may "make" me have an A again.

That leaves a BS feeling like I better make darn sure that those events, environments and scenarios do not occur. Maybe that's feasible, but it sure is stressful, and leaves you with a lot of insecurity. I think that may be what Jerry is feeling. Over time, that stress and insecurity leads to resentment.

BS's want WS's to accept that they made that choice, not to shame them or to blame them or to prove some superiority. It's so they will say I will never make that choice again. If they don't view it as a choice in the first place, they can't make that statement.

You can't promise something won't happen again if you steadfastly deny that you had control over it happening in the first place.

Too often, the intent or the rationale of a choice is offered as means to abdicate responsibility for it.

For the record, my wife also said, "I guess I am just a bad person" after her EA, and everytime I would harass her (yes, harass her) about the affair she would say the same thing. It drove me insane, because she most assuredly is NOT a bad person, has never been a bad person in her life, could not possibly ever be a bad person.

I finally had to accept that no reason she could offer would ever be good enough to explain why she did what she did, so I stoppped asking for explanations. For the longest time I felt that nothing she said would ever be good enough.

She bacame close to another man after her father got diagnosed with terminal cancer; she worked part time and took care of her dad alone, bathing him and wiping his butt and doing things for him no kid should ever have to do for a parent. She fed him and read to him and ultimately watched him die a slow and agonizing death. I was out of town the night he died.

I travelled extensively during this time, figuring she had it all covered. She started confiding her feelings in a co-worker who had also lost both his parents to cancer. She left her Love Bank unguarded and the b*stard was happy to make deposits.

I was irate and emotionally abusive with her for well over a year before I found this place, when she was days away from filing for divorce.

It wasn't until I took a long hard look at my own behavior that I was able to realise that I had left her alone and totally vulnerable at the time in her life she needed me most. I had to get myself to a place where I could view her "bad choice" with understanding and then ultimately with compassion for how her "bad choice" had affected not only me, but her. She was devastated by what she had done, and devastated at discovering what she was almost capable of doing, no matter what the circumstances were.

But she is not and never could be a bad person, and I tell her this everytime she says it, which thankfully is very rarely since I've discovered Dr. Harley...

Beowulf

Beowulf.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I have read and absorbed it all and must say that I agree much as to what you have stated.

These are not new thoughts for me and I came to pretty much the same convlusion as you a number or years ago. I do not harass or expect something from my W, that I am thoughly convinced she is not able to give at this time. I simply thought after 5 years, that time may have come. It seems it will not happen on my time. What a surprise, Huh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />?



I guess my only reply to that is that I never believed I was somehow on a lofty perch in expecting certain boundaries after 32 years of trust. Perhaps I was wrong. Perhaps no one has a right to expect this, but if that's true, how sad.



I guess it was peace of mind. I guess I don't want to feel compelled to look at my W's cellphone anymore. I don't want to look at her email and caller ID on the phone. I hate that i occasionally feel compelled to do this anyway. I suppose my damage is irreversable. But that's on me, not her.



Well how would that epiphany happen if she refuses to see the vunerability in the first place? Remember, it was not her fault. It's not about me recognising vunerablity, it's about her recognision, and doing something about it.

Thanks for your thougts,

All Blessings,
Jerry

Hey Jerry,

Ha! I must be a moron...can't figure out how to get things in the quote boxes, so I will quote manually...

"I guess my only reply to that is that I never believed I was somehow on a lofty perch in expecting certain boundaries after 32 years of trust. Perhaps I was wrong. Perhaps no one has a right to expect this, but if that's true, how sad."

Of course we expected certain boundaries from our wives, but it is very easy for boundaries to become unguarded when you are caught unaware.

Eons ago at University, I had a great girlfriend. She went to a different school, so we agreed to keep our relationship going but still have fun and date other people while we were apart. We naively figured we could somehow maintain our specialness as a couple even while seeing other people. Well, I fell hard for this small, strange, black-haired girl who wrote poems and played guitar and had the spookiest grey eyes I had ever seen. She, in truth, wasn't all that much to look at, but, man, once I let her into my head, there was no getting her out. I was in love like I had never been in my life. I dumped my steady girl and moved in with Spooky, only to find her in bed three months later with her best girlfriend. And here I had been thinking all along that all those poems were about me. What a jerk I was!

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that sometimes naivety plays in to unguarded boundaries. I will tell you that since that day I have NEVER dropped my guard around a woman who is not my mate. I have certain vulnerabilities, certain types of women that I have a tendency to fall for (not small, black-haired trolls anymore, thank God), and I steer clear. Past experience tells me to do this. I am a married man and I do not have female friends. I protect myself and my marriage and my wife, because I have learned from my past failings.

Your wife claims to be a victim. As I said before, I feel that's okay. But what is she doing to prevent herself from becoming "victimized" again? What guards is she putting into place? If someone steals my car because I left it unlocked, I am a victim of theft, but also a victim of my own stupidity. But I will protect myself next time by keeping my car locked and maybe taking the extraordinary precaution of buying a lock for my steering wheel.

What is your wife doing to "keep her car from being stolen" again? Even "victims" need to take precautions to keep from being "victimized" again.

Beowulf

Hi Jerry ~ Let me tell you about my husband..

My husband is an active alcoholic.

He doesn't believe that he has a problem.

I believe his drinking poses a serious threat to our marriage.

He thinks I'm uptight and over reacting.

Who is right?

I am of course! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But I can not control his point of view.

So....

While I have not dumped him because he drinks...it does not stop me from voicing my truth, my point of view, when the time is appropriate and in a nondisrespectful way.

When the moment occurs, I look him in the eyes and say: Your drinking frightens me. I am scared of watching you die. I am afraid our daughter will grow up without a dad to walk her down the aisle on her wedding day. I am afraid of being alone.

Now...does he say, Oh my gosh you are so right...what was I thinking?

Heck no!

Usually he just hugs me. I am not nagging. I am not saying things like YOU ROTTEN STINKING NO GOOD DRUNK! I am simply speaking MY fear, MY point of view.

Has it changed a darn thing...no not really. Well, now he tries to white knuckle sobriety - he doesn't last long...but I've noticed that he frequently tries to quit, whereas years ago, that was not an issue.

Maybe one day he'll make it to AA. I doubt it, he's pretty darn prideful, but I leave it between him and God.

And I think, that if you choose to stay with a woman who does not take responsiblity....your approach could be similar.

Acceptance on your part - THIS is who she is. She is not who you want her to be.

Boundaries on your part - Just because SHE says she was a victim, does not mean that YOUR truth must match. Your truth is valid, and you can certainly voice it with out Angry outbursts or disrespectful judgements.

I don't hide my truth about my husband's drinking. You should not hide your truth about your wife's lack of responsiblity. The boundary part is hard, because it is very easy to slip from protecting and voicing YOUR truth to attempting to force HER truth to change.

Clearly, you have a boundary like I do - no more adultry.

So, for TODAY, her lack of responsibility has not led to another affair, just as my husband's drinking has not led him to another affair.

Tomorrow, that could change, but we are living in TODAY and accepting our spouses as they are.

Harley says that affairs happen when people fail to protect their weaknesses.

Jerry's W has avoided having to confront her weaknesses because she excuses herself from culpability for her affair by her victimhood.

Until a FWS confronts the weaknesses that led to them having an affair, there can be no assurance of avoiding a future affair IMO.

That is why it is very important that a FWS "owns their chit".

The BS must also "own their chit". Where the BS has contributed to a marriage or environment where an affair could flourish it needs to be identified and repented of.

I can't think offhand of a healthy recovery where either the BS or FWS did not accept their weaknesses and address them before moving forward. It is like building a house on sand IMO.

Perhaps there are some BS who can move on from the devastation of d-day without knowing the sure and humble contrition of the FWS, but I can't think of any in a healthy recovery now.

A willingness to forgive is MOST crucial, but practically addressing the facts of the A is equally so IME. I believe this is all borne out by MB.