Moving this thread here for poster TYK from the recovery forum:


Am I Even in Recovery?!
#3302918 - 09/10/07 02:06 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Here’s the sob story, it is unforgiveably long, and I thank any of your for taking the time to read and comment. I really have 2 specific questions and they are at the end of the post, the rest of this is I suspect the typical “boo hoo I’m being cheated on!” stuff that we’ve all been through.

I believe my wife of 10 years has had an affair, one that went on for at least 3-5 months and it is possible (but I hope and believe unlikely) that it is still going on. We have a 7 year old beautiful daughter.

This started as me noticing a feeling of distance and change. It continued for a couple months of me asking “what is wrong honey?” The response was for months “Nothing, I’m fine.” I knew in my heart this wasn’t true. I began to suspect an affair and started to dig but couldn’t find anything solid. Just a lot of the standard “affair symptoms” and a strong gut feeling. Then one time when I asked her what was wrong she told me “I love you, but I’m not “In Love” with you.” She said she didn’t know when I asked her if she wanted to be with me. This took me by complete surprise and I was devastated. She pulled out every bit of baggage from our past, things that I never knew she held against me, things that she had harbored for years. Things that certainly were not examples of my best behavior, things that I know weren’t the way one should treat their spouse, but not things that I ever expected were still being resented and remembered so intensely. This all made me feel terrible, she made me believe that I had been a bad husband and that she had been very unhappy for a long time.

About 3 months ago our cell phone bill was high. I started looking into it and saw that for 3 months she had been talking to a number named “Kiki” on her phone. She had been talking for HOURS to this person. The calls were always during times when I was not there. She’d talk to them all the way to work, all the way home, basically, ALL the time (10 hours a month was the most). I investigated and it turned out that “Kiki” was not Kiki. Nikki was [censored], a man she worked with. I confronted her. The look of shock on her face when I asked “who is [censored]?” was quite revealing, but she insisted that [censored] was just a friend (Kiki was his out of town girlfriend, a co-worker from an out of state office, which was the explaination for having “[censored]” listed as “Kiki”). Someone she liked talking to and had a lot in common with. She denied having an affair but our relationship continued to deteriorate. Then I contracted Herpes. I knew then that my suspicions were correct, but when confronted with this she at first denied that it was possible that it had come from her, and then after she got tested and came back positive she told me that she had been almost raped outside a bar during a “girls night out” 3 or 4 years ago, that the man never penetrated her but had rubbed himself on her and that she got away. She said she never told me at the time it happened because she was embarrassed and thought that I would think she was lying (why I would have thought that I have no idea), and that she didn’t tell me when I first asked her if it was possible that she had given me an STD (after I had symptoms but before I was tested) because she hadn’t believed it was possible. While I believe it is possible this rape incident may have happened, I do not believe that this is where the herpes came from, although our Dr. says that it is technically possible, just improbable. She still denies having an affair but even though my fairly extensive efforts to acquire proof have yielded nothing concrete, I am even more convinced that I have been correct in my suspicions all along.

I don’t want to give the impression that I believe I am a saint. I know that I have not always been a perfect husband; that I have at times been distant and negligent and have taken her for granted. I KNOW that I have made mistakes, but I have always cared deeply about her, I have always been faithful and since we met when we were 20 I have matured greatly and become a better partner. Almost all her recriminations come from things that happened over 5 years ago, much of it as much as 10 years old. I realize that my opinion of all this is pretty much irrelevant because her feelings about it create her reality and I have to find a way to deal with that, but I really do believe that her complaints are to a large extent a self-justification for having the affair. Regardless of that I have been taking them at face value and trying to address them.

Through all this time, I have had the hardest time getting her to talk to me. She doesn’t like to talk about us and my persistent efforts usually end up in long drawn out tearful conversations that yield just the smallest bit of progress. The talking process is almost a damaging thing in and of itself because it is such an emotionally traumatizing event that just engaging in it is enough to make one want a divorce! This is the case even though I am so very careful to try to create a safe, non threatening atmosphere. My rationalization is that if we don’t talk and try to work through things, however difficult it is, then we are surely destined for either divorce or a life of misery, and since we’ve already got the misery that will lead to the divorce if left unresolved I might as well give my best effort, however flawed. She won’t go to counseling, she tells me that “I can’t even talk to you, how would I be able to talk to a stranger”, the obvious and reasonable explanations as to why this might be a good idea have not convinced her.

However, right after the herpes revelation she did come to me and said that she was sorry for “everything”. She was sorry that she had been “unavailable to me” for the last several months and sorry that she had hurt me and said she just wanted us to move forward and make things better. She said that she was ready to put everything into our marriage and wanted to work things out. She said that she would even go through a relationship coaching dvd/cd series that I suggested as a compromise to counseling. I have been trying to get to the point where I am trying to accept that she will probably never tell me the truth and the fact is that I still love her and my family is very important to me. I do not want to get a divorce because I so still love her despite everything and believe that we can recover from this, and because I do not want to do that to my daughter, both for her sake and because I want to be there every day as she grows up.

After she apologized things became very good between us. She was “there” with me, talking and laughing, kissing me, holding me, loving me like she had not done in a very long time. It was the first time in 8 months where I really felt like she was “there”. I thought that if this was the way things were going to be then I would simply have to live with the fact that I believe she has lied to me and move forward. However, this period only lasted about 2 weeks. The past week it seems like we are backsliding. She is once again becoming more distant and the intimacy is less and feels forced. Its not that things are “bad”, ( if what I’ve described can be considered “not bad” by some standard anyhow.) It’s just that the progress seems to have stalled out and things are regressing.

I have told her that I am not that concerned about the affair insomuch as I view it as a symptom of the real problems more so than the problem itself. I told her that I can understand that things happen and that if she had an affair that the most important thing to me is that it is over, I have told her that we should take this all as an opportunity to rebuild and to make our marriage better. My biggest hurt and problem through all of this has been the lies. It breaks my heart to watch her lie (so I believe) to me over and over again about something so important. I have told her that if she had an affair that she should just tell me so we can move forward knowing the truth because I honestly think that the biggest obstacle (unless the affair is still ongoing) to us right now is her guilt making her push me away. I have told her that the herpes isn’t even an issue because what the ******? I mean, nothing I do now can change the fact that I have herpes and she has herpes, so what can fighting about that do? Other than being incredibly upset at the time of discovery I haven’t even brought it up because imo the herpes is just a symptom of the symptom of what is wrong with our relationship. I thought that I had broken through to her a couple weeks ago but I now fear that the good period was simply a manifestation of guilt over the herpes. I am fairly certain that the affair is over and if I had to guess I would guess that it has been over for at least a month, maybe two. It is also possible that I am fooling myself but it would be very difficult for her to be carrying on the affair right now without me finding out. I most certainly would never rule it out as possible though given everything that has happened.

We have still had some good times even through out all this. We went to Vegas for our honeymoon and had a blast, we started doing “date nights” and going out to lunch together and spending more time with each other in general. All of these things are things that I have pushed as ways to help us recover. She is not entirely reluctant, but she doesn’t ever put forth any effort of her own, but goes along with my suggestions. There are intermittent periods where things have seemed better and then they regress. I have offered to give her an amicable divorce; always stressing that I do NOT want a divorce and telling her that I believe we can make things better; if that is what she wants and she has said that she doesn’t want a divorce. She is not financially bound to me, we make approximately the same amount of money. I know she believes I am a good father and has always said she cares about me and recently started telling me she “loves” me again. I am through great effort and soul searching coming to accept that I may never know the truth, and while I do still have dark periods where my thoughts descend into anger and hurt those times are decreasing in both frequency and intensity. I have tried to maintain my focus on seeking solutions and trying to make things better between us, and I guess it is working to some extent because she is still here and I like to think some sort of slow progress is being made.

I guess my questions are:
1: Is it normal during the recovery process for things to vacillate between good and bad? Things were just better than they had been since this started, am I on the cusp of getting my life back or am I just experiencing the last stuttering gasp of a dying marriage?

2:How do you get someone to tell you the truth? I have at various times put some pretty incredible pressure on her to tell me only to have her continue to deny. How hard should I push her to tell me? I really do want to know, mainly because I just want to know if I was right, it would put me at ease to know that even as bad as its been, at least I was not wrong about something so terribly important. (If I am incorrect it’s a whopper of a mistake I’ve made, eh?) I also really do think that the lies and guilt are just tearing her up, making recovery more difficult than it needs to be. I don’t think she believes me when I tell her that I can take the truth, that I can forgive her and that we can recover from whatever it is she has to tell me. I think knowing the truth would expedite recovery, but pushing for the truth and not getting it is counterproductive at this point, and IF recovery is possible its probably possible either way because I have come to care less about having to know the truth as long as there are real signs of recovery.

3:Am I just a fricken idiot?

Thank you so much to anyone that took the time to read and or reply to this horribly long and tedious account. I appreciate any advice, comments, or suggestions that you might have.

Tyk

************************************************************
************************************************************

Reged: 06/26/07
Posts: 30
Re: Am I Even in Recovery?! [Re: Tyk]
#3302943 - 09/10/07 07:12 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Tyk, you probably want to move your thread to general questions II. There is much more traffic there and truly I am not sure you are technically in recovery. Other people with more experience will be along to help but I thought I would give you my opinion on things.

First of all, all the classic signs of an affair are there. The fact that you have contracted a disease is pretty concrete proof even with the excuse that she gave. Some thing that you have to understand is that Wayward Spouses LIE! First they have to build up a case in their mind remembering all the bad things that you have done in order to convince themselves that it is ok to have an affair. They know it is WRONG, but they need to come up with some excuse to help assuage the guilt.

Once they decide it is ok to have the affair, it is open season for lying. The lies will start out small as you are not suspicious in the beginning and they have a lot more free reign. Once you get suspicious or time drags on , the lies inevitably get bigger in order to help sustain this double life they are leading.

Do not believe anything that she says. Believe what she does. Her actions will be the only way to tell what is truly going on. If she has an emotional attachment to this man, then it will be harder to let go. Everytime she sees him, she will be tempted to meet and talk to him. Her vision of you will not compare favorably to her vision of him. You will lose in this regard. The only way to stop this comparison is to get her to stop seeing him. That means transferring jobs, companies etc...

You need to kill this A in the bud. That means EXPOSURE. I am assuming that he is married. Is this true? If so, you need to tell his wife. Even if you only go so far as saying that you suspect that the two spouses are having an affair. Having his wife putting pressure on him on that end will help ensure that he stops attempting to contact your wife. Also, his wife deserves to know. Your wife will be pissed and will scream a lot ( please see the threads on exposure under general questions II as they tell you what to expect). Other people to expose to are Family (yours and hers), human resoureces at their work. Their respective boss if they work together .

Also, you talked about wanting to know the details. I had to struggle with my wife for the details ( I am not sure I have them all yet). She apologized to me for having an innapropriate relationship with another man. That could be an apology for anything. My wifes affair was for over 4 years and I knew damn well she had sex with him. I would not accept an apology that wasnt actually apologizing for what she did. I was not interested in some general amnesty. She eventually gave me the details and apologized for having an affair that included sex with another man over a period of 4 years. She worked with him and I am sure that if they still worked together, we would be divorced. At the moment, we are attempting to recover. I exposed to his wife and feel sort of confident that they dont see or talk to each other any more. I am paranoid and check continually as there are trust issues now- phone bills ( cell and land line), emails, her attitude towards me, time away from me when not at work etc...

I suggest you get the book Surving an Affair by dr harley. It will go into all the things you need to look at about your marriage that allowed the two of you to get into this situation. I found it very informative.

--------------------
BS(me) - 39
WW - 39
D-Day 1/20/2001
WW only admitted to affair 6/24/2007
DD - 3, 3, 2

************************************************************
************************************************************


Tyk:

You are in the right place. You will learn a LOT here, maybe even more than you want to know about the inner workings of failing relationships. Good luck to you.

1. Are you sure you are in recovery yet? I can tell you that I can pinpoint the week my WS aquired her WS mentality, and even after that point we had some great dates, some great times, even renewed our vows. But it was a false recovery.

2. You don't. A WS won't tell the truth unless you catch them. You already know this. Read up on Spying 101 and get a key logger for your computer.

3. No. An idiot wouldn't be trying to figure out his sitch and working to save his relationship. Don't lose hope, but don't close your eyes and just hope things will get better on their own. They won't.

--------------------
Scott

************************************************************
************************************************************

Re: Am I Even in Recovery?! [Re: scott1228]

Thank you both for your replies.

If this topic is in the wrong forum I ask a moderator to move it wherever they think most appropriate.

I have tried very hard to expose this affair, both by spying and by getting her to confess. At first, when I now believe the affair was starting and really going strong, I was just realizing what was going on, denying to myself that it was possible and I missed what would have been the easiest opportunity to catch her. Since then the affair has either stopped or they are being incredibly careful. She doesn't use the computers at home, never has, I work in IT Consulting and she knows it would be very difficult to hide things there. I showed my hand with the cell phone logs, confronting her before I had absolute proof thinking that it would shake her into telling me, but she held to her story. After the herpes was discovered, I thought for sure she would open up. How could she not?! I still think she was very very close to telling me after that, but she didn't, and the week in between recieving my test results and her test results gave her time to concoct a story that is almost entirely incredibly, but on the outside margins possible, and conveniently enough, impossible to disprove.

I have believed that it is important to get the truth on the table so true healing can begin, but I have been unable to make it happen or make her provide it. I am beginning to wonder if a divorce ultimatum would be enough to force her to tell me, but as we all know that is a huge roll of the dice and while a part of me really really wants to do that another part of me recognizes that even as tenuous as the progress has been we have made some progress and is hopeful that continued patience will win out in the end.

Again, thank you both, it means alot to just have this ****** out there being evaluated by an impartial mind. I have several friends that I have talked to, but they are close to me and her and they don't know what to say. They agree that I am probably right in my thinking but all they can do is listen.

************************************************************************************************************************

FledTheState
Member


Re: Am I Even in Recovery?! [Re: Tyk]
#3303073 - 09/10/07 10:36 AM


Tyk,

Sorry you find yourself here. Read the books suggested on the intial pages of this site, SAA, His needs/her needs. Use the search engine for spying 101. Mark has a list for newbies that you can find over in general. It talks about Plan A and Plan B and exposure. You will find a lot more help from the people over in general. there are more of them there more often and can be of great help in figuring out your insanity and what to do to destroy the A and give your M a chance to recover.

Best wishes

FTS

--------------------
Me BS
D Day 4-2-2005
OC born 12-2004
DS 18, DS 9
Married 1993

************************************************************************************************************************

JustKim
Member


Reged: 02/21/07
Posts: 123
Loc: MA Re: Am I Even in Recovery?! [Re: Tyk]
#3303074 - 09/10/07 10:37 AM


Tyk

Your W is having an affair, plain and simple. It has *not* stopped, only gone further underground.

What I am about to say to you may sound harsh and you might not like some of it but you need to hear it.

If you want your W's A to end, you must do several things.

First, get proof. It is quite easy, really. Insall a digital voice activiated recorder in her car. It will capture her conversations. A good one is about 80.00

Install a keylogger on her computer at home. I assume she has one. Here is a URL for an excellent application that is downloadable:

http://www.spectorsoft.com/products/SpectorPro_Windows/

Gather the evidence. Once you have proof, come up with a plan of exposure. This next point is CRITICAL. DO NOT tell your wife that you "know" and are going to expose. I repeat - DO NOT tell your wife or give her any warning whatsoever. To do so will enable her to come up with a story with the OM to put spin on the truth.

Why must you expose? Because exposure is ruinious to affairs. They cannot last when exposed to the light of day.

Who do you expose to? Your W's family, your family, friends and most importanly to the OM's Wife. This is important and I know from whence I speak. My H tried to end his affair the day the OW's H found out. No one told me - it continued in secret for another 2 months. The day I found out about his A, it ended.

If your W does not end the A after exposure, then take it is a step further. Expose to the HR dept. Its a workplace A? Im sure the company would not be happy.

Your W will be upset. She will say all kinds of awful things - threaten you, etc. Good. That means exposure is working, the heat is on. It is to be expected. Your M can survive that - it cant survive an A.

Ive been on this forum for 1.5 years. That is nothing compared to some of the folks around here. Trust me, we've seen it all. People are hesitant to expose, afraid it will drive the spouse away. It might, but she will be back. If you dont expose - consider your M finished.


Once exposure takes place, Your wife needs to agree to no contact. A no contact letter must be drafted and sent
then - and only then - can you start the excrutiatingly slow process of recovery.

Lastly - move your thread. You need to post this on GQ II. There are many veterans there that will guide you through this process step by step.

Please, please - listen to them. If you follow their instructions - no matter how conter intuitive it may seem, you stand an excellent chance of recovering your M.

God bless

--------------------
BS: Me, 41
FWH: 47
EA/PA with My Friend Jan-Apr 06
DDay: 4/29/06
NC: email 5/1/06

************************************************************************************************************************

FledTheState
Member


Reged: 02/06/07
Posts: 256
Re: Am I Even in Recovery?! [Re: JustKim]
#3303080 - 09/10/07 10:55 AM


Listen to Justkim,

God what I would have given if the OW's H had had the balls to expose. The A would have ended 10 months earlier. Any idea how much more involved they become in that time?????

--------------------
Me BS
D Day 4-2-2005
OC born 12-2004
DS 18, DS 9
Married 1993

Post Extras:

Tyk
Junior Member


Reged: 09/10/07
Posts: 3
Re: Am I Even in Recovery?! [Re: FledTheState]
#3303090 - 09/10/07 11:10 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Thank you, can someone please move this post or explain how to move it?

Yes I believe this is a workplace affair. I tried using a GPS tracker on her car for a time but its results were inconclusive. Some clues were gathered but still no "smoking gun". She began to suspect that I was watching and I think even suspected the GPS so it could have been avoided by her anyhow.

I have considered contacting the OM's girlfriend but I do not know if they are still together, they were in a long distance relationship and I know nothing about either one of them other than phone numbers. Even so she might be able to provide me with information if they are not. I have been hesitant to do this without proof but have strongly considered it. I did one time talk the other man, I told him that I was not comfortable with another man that I didn't know spending so much time talking to my wife and invited him to play golf so we could introduce ourselves. He of course declined the invitation.

Post Extras:

sadandconfused51
Member


Reged: 06/26/07
Posts: 30
Re: Am I Even in Recovery?! [Re: Tyk]
#3303101 - 09/10/07 11:26 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Dont get to know the guy. Even if he accepted, he would be just a practised liar as your wife and you would start doubting that this "nice" guy would be having an affair with your wife after he was so nice to you.

JustKim listed pretty clearly the steps to follow.

Get proof and then expose and insist in No Contact. You say she makes a lot of calls in her car to him. Good spot for a voice activated recorder. Do it sooner rather than later. The longer it goes on , the harder it is to stop.

--------------------
BS(me) - 39
WW - 39
D-Day 1/20/2001
WW only admitted to affair 6/24/2007
DD - 3, 3, 2

Post Extras:

I don't want to know the guy, I don't want to golf with the guy. I called him knowing full well that I didn't have enough proof to get the truth, I just wanted him to know that I was aware of his existence and was not happy about his relationship with my wife even without being able prove an affair. The whole golf thing was simply to make it difficult for my wife to turn it around on me. What can she say about me asking her "friend" to golf? Not much, she could say alot about me threatening a co-worker and accusing him of having an affair that I can't prove.

The comments about "manning up" are mildly insulting, especially given the general tone of the advice given by the experts on this site. If 'manning up' means being very agressive and kicking my wife to the curb, then I have tried to avoid this. I know full well that I have taken some shots on the chin from my wife through all this, trust me, I KNOW. But most of the expert advice here seems to be along the lines of trying to create a safe environment for communication and showing patience and respect in the face of pain.

I have tried anger and confrontation and it doesn't seem to work very well, I have also tried to catch her and get proof but I have as yet been unable to do so. I am going to look into the voice recorder idea and have considered a private investigator.

I do thank you all for taking the time to reply.

Tyk:

Don't be so anxious to get proof that you tip your hand. You don't want to drive the WS mentality further underground, you want to prove it so you can expose it and end it. Without proof, a WS will just keep denying.

Hang in there. Prepare yourself for the proof, but in the meantime, work on yourself, read up, and try to meet your WS's needs.

If they work together, she needs to quit her job. It sounds to me like the affair is continuing. At any rate, they need to never have contact again for any reason.

Also monitor her activities very closely.

I'm sorry you took offense to my suggestions on the other thread in the Recovery section. I know when I first started posting that I got some advice that I didn't want to hear at the time, but guess what, within a few days it became apparent that the advice given was correct.

You are doing what many mistakingly do at first ... you are in denial to yourself. You know (AND YOU DO KNOW ... SHE GAVE YOU HERPES FOR CRYING OUT LOUD) your wife is having an affair, but you won't admit it to yourself.

The advice you speak of is for when you are in RECOVERY ... and you're not there yet. You have an affair to STOP first, and exposure, especially to her family/friends and possibly to their company's HR Dept. would be an excellent first step, IF your wife is still unwilling to admit to the A and send a No Contact letter immediately.

As I said before, to do otherwise is tantamount to condoning the A.

Good Luck and BE STRONG!!!

Hire the PI.

It saves time, heart-wrenching effort, and normally produces irrefutible evidence.

Get the name of the long distance GF, and prepare to expose when you have the evidence. Widen the exposure to ALL whom you believe can be a positive influence in convincing your WW the affair should end, and she should work on her marriage.

Check credit card receipts for unusual purchases/locations of purchases, and/or gifts or sexy clothes you haven't seen.

Trust your gut, as it will be right in these matters about 90% of the time.

Purchase and read "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Willard Harley. ASAP! Most advice you will receive here is based on his writings.

Read up on Plan A, and do all that is required to change your contributions to the marriage as they might need to be corrected. Knowledge is power in this ordeal, so learn all you can, as quickly as you can.

Prepare yourself for a long, heartwrenching journey, because all this takes a great deal of effort, and time.

Best wishes,
SD

I am not in denial, I was for a time early in the process (which started in Feb) but I firmly believe that my wife has had an affair and I suspect as do many of you that it is still ongoing. I do wish I had found this site much sooner as it would have been very valuable at the beginning, however I have to a large degree followed alot of the MB philosophy as is.

My problem is that I can't prove it, and she will not admit it. Yes, one would certainly think that her giving me herpes would have pretty much cinched it, but she gave me the "almost raped" story and while its pretty obvious that its a lie (or at least that its not where the herpes came from), I STILL can't PROVE it is a lie and I can't make her tell me any different. So yes, I need proof, but it is possible that I need proof that an affair happened, which is much harder to get than catching an ongoing affair.

It is going to be very hard to catch her now even if it is still going on. If she is still in contact with him it is happening while she is at work, using the work phone and being very careful. There has not been much opportunity for them to have had physical contact outside of work for the past couple months, and she knows I am more than suspicious.

I recognize the value of all the advice given and I will probably try the voice recorder in the car, but I suspect it will not yeild much as if the A if ongoing it is DEEP underground now.

Keep your peeps open, as well as your ears, as affair partners often purchase A phones, sometimes permanent, sometimes disposable.

Women typically cherish "keepsakes" so when she's not around, scour the house, her possessions, secret places in the house or garage, or her car (doesn't it need an oil change about now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)for her stash of letters, cards, gifts, music, whatever.

Heighten your sense of awareness, and look where you think she might hide stuff, but be extremely covert, and don't get caught or leave evidence of your search.

The voice recorder is a great next step. I still suggest a PI can help, if they are leaving work together for any reason, or meeting before and/or after.

SD

Tell her she needs to quit. See what she says. It is very disrespectful to you to continue working with the herpes carrier.

I have told her that if she is having an affair it needs to end.

I guess the problem I am facing is "what now?"

I know I need proof, I have tried to get proof, but I have not been able to. The lack of proof allows her to continue to lie. I have tried to get her to tell the truth, that hasn't happened either.

I have enough circumstantial evidence and have been living this, I KNOW there has been an affair. There's no doubt in my mind. Reading through this site has only strengthened that. I see her behavior and words described over and over again in every BS's story.

But I don't know what to do now. Things have seemed better here for about a month. I think the A may be over, but I can't know for sure. Right now we're just kinda stuck in this pretend rut, where she's acting (most of the time) like we're trying to fix things and I'm at least somewhat relieved that she's at least being friendly. But I don't think any true progress can be made until the truth comes out.

As was said earlier, I don't think I can just let this go. I know too much.

I have been contemplating calling the OM's girlfriend to see if she can shed some light on the situation but don't know if that's a good idea seeing as how I can't provide any proof of my suspicions.

Tyk:

These things take time to come to the surface. If the affair is active, you will have your proof.

If it is not, continuing to focus on IT rather than rebuilding your marriage will not serve any good purpose. Often times, a WS is looking for a reason to leave, so that they can rationalize and blame the failure on the other person.

It may be the hardest thing in the world to do right now, but the only chance you have is to be happy, pleasant, fun to be around. Don't nag, and make angry statements. You have every right to be angry, but do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?

At the same time, keep your eyes open. When and if you do get proof, you can expose then.

Thank you scott.

Wife and I were at least able to have a conversation about our relationship yesterday evening without it devolving into an extended emotional mess. She said some things that didn't make much sense and was screwing up the timelines on some things but I just let it go. Pushing her would have just made her defensive and brought out more lies. I don't think she will ever come clean about this without me being able to prove it.

I know that in many ways I am my own worst enemy in this. It is very hard to put on a show of happiness and love as I'm sure you all know. I do pretty well most of the time, but there are those black moments that are hard to deal with.

It sucks just waiting. Patience is definitely not one of my virtues.

I do have a question: how often do affairs end on thier own, without a D-day? She works with this guy, they have daily contact and even if she wanted it to end it would be difficult.

TYK,

You need to hire the PI. Trust me, it's a lot cheaper than a lawyer and it will get you results. You'll get the lunch time pics, the GPS tracker on the vehicle, the proof you need. A voice recorder in her car will likely reveal much. The keylogger will too.

Now, manning up doesn't mean becoming an a**hole. It means being James Bond cool. It means not showing emotion and letting emotions guide your actions.

So when the WW starts ranting, you don't engage her in argument. You calmly talk back and hold to your guns. There will be no "easy" divorce. You will not fund her infidelity. You protect the family assets and funds. If she wishes to use her phone to have an affair, then cancel it and quit paying for it. She has a job, she can fund it herself.

It means cancelling all your bank accounts and opening a new one only you have access to and putting the family assets there.

She'll rant and rave. You can tell her, calmly, that when she comes clean and starts acting like your wife, then you can start trusting her again as your wife and treating her as your wife. You don't get mad. You don't yell. Let her do that. Let her be the one to threaten divorce and fighting and yelling.

Then document. Record her rants if you can.

Don't move out of your house to "cool things down". Don't sleep out of your bed. If she doesn't want to sleep with you, offer her the couch or an air mattress.

The point here is that appeasement will get you nowhere. Trust me. I speak from experience. I caved to all of my ex's demands, thinking it would save our marriage. It didn't. It simply let her get away with taking all our things, keeping our kids, and making my battle for more time with my kids that much more difficult.

Appeasement will get you nothing. That's all we're telling you when we say "man up".

In other words, don't be a doormatt. Don't cave to irrational demands. Weather her storm. She'll respect your strength if she comes back. You'll protect your assets and rights as a father if she doesn't come back.

We're trying to keep you from making the mistakes that many men make and later regret. And we're making you aware of the common dirty tactics women resort to. She knows you love her and she knows you're crushed emotionally and consciously or not, she'll use this to get her way, or at least will try to.

Don't let her alienate you from your child (a daughter, right?).

This will be a horrible experience no matter which path you take. If she comes back you will face your own battle with resentment and triggers. If she doesn't, then you will battle the betrayal and starting over and then attempt to get along with her because of your daughter.

Neither path you face is easy and there is, unfortunatly, much pain ahead for you no matter what road you choose.

Tyk,

Even if the A is over....there is a right way for affairs to end.....a "formal" ending consisting of a "no contact" letter, and complete separation from the affair partner (in this case that would mean another job). The formality is important for setting the boundaries and creating the accountability your marriage will need to recover.

None of that can happen until she can be honest about the affair in the first place. And since she has no intention of owning up to it....you'll have to come up with a plan to get over that hurdle. Unfortunately, that will mean some inventive investigation. You may feel like a cad for snooping, but remember there is a big difference between privacy and secrecy. Privacy only affects her....secrecy directly affects other people....in this case...you. You've already seen the results it can yield....like the STD.

The voice-activated recorder is a good choice. Even if she's no longer talking to him....she may talk about him to a girlfriend. I even know of one instance where the WS was caught talking to herself! Looking for souvenirs is another very good suggestion. Calling his SO and comparing notes has worked for some people. But you must do something rather than resolving never to get honesty. Without honesty....reaching recovery becomes practically impossible....no honesty....no consequences and no accountability....no accountability....no end to contact....and so, no security at all the affair won't recur.

There is always a paper trail, or electronic trail somewhere. Some people have hired a PI and then taken a trip that provides an opportunity for the WS to take chances.

I'm sorry chere.

Well, the affair won't end unless all contact ends. An affair is an addiction, and as long as she continues to see and work with the OM, she cannot withdraw. Recovery will be impossible. If she doesn't leave the job, you are looking at YEARS of dealing with the affair.

Here is what Harley says about the importance of no contact:

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

Do you really need to "PROVE" something you both know is true? She knows she is having an affair; you know she is having an affair, its not like you have to PROVE it to her or that you have to have her admission to know the truth. Are you sure there has been an affair?

If you are sure, you don't necessarily need hard evidence. What do you know that convinces you she has had an affair with this guy?

Melody,

Even if a BS doesn't need proof to the know the truth, they still need truth to confront, expose and heal. Some BSs....really need to see proof before the can truly wrap their mind around it.

But the real reason for hard evidence is for effective exposure. It's hard to go to friends and family without proof. And lack of proof can make it really easy for the WS to undermine exposure if they can paint the BS paranoid and jealous.

Even in the face of irrefutable proof (the OW called me in a fit of anger and gave me details) my husband still lied. His lies were really convincing (just like TKY's WS)....but I refused to allow him to talk his way out of it. I told him that I already thought he was "the lowest form of life on earth, but if he continued to lie I would rack my brain for something worse....click". Then I refused to speak to him until he was honest and willing to answer all my questions. Everytime he called and he started to lie.....*click*. He tried for a couple of hours and then gave up and confessed. Until that confession....there was no way to move forward for me. It wasn't enough to "know"....I needed to hear it from him....because there could be no healing until he stopped lying.

starfish, I think we sometimes overrate the weight of evidence and believe we need it to confront. If a BS has enough intel to believe there is an affair in the first place, that is enough to CONFRONT. I don't think anyone should confront until they do have some kind of evidence.[could even be circumstantial, but just enough for them to know about the affair]

A BS often gets into this self induced trap of thinking they have to "prove" something and induce an "admission" when they really don't. They don't need an admission to know the truth, because, as you said, often in the face of irrefutable proof, the WS still won't admit it. The fact is that the WS doesn't need "PROOF" to know what he is doing, he already knows it. Nor do we need his admission to know it is true. The truth is the truth regardless of the WS confirmation.

Now, I agree that a WS does need to admit the truth in order to heal, but I view that as an entirely different issue. Like you said, sometimes all the evidence in the world, even catching them in the ACT, will not bring about the honesty required to heal. Healing is created by a willing mind, though, not by a forced admission; not by any amount of evidence.

This is exactly why I always suggest TELLING, instead of ASKING about the affair. If there is enough evidence to believe it in the first place, there is enough evidence to confront, IMO.

That being said, I think it is always best to have SOME kind of evidence for exposure. It's not always available, but is certainly helpful.

tyk,

I was thinking about your situation today. May I recommend that when you contact OM's GF or whatever she is, that you ask her straight out if her BF has herpes. Tell her you have good reason to believe your W has had and is having an affair with her BF and that she has given you herpes. Tell GF needs to get checked out immediately. If she is aware of her BF having herpes, to let you know and you will NOT contact her again, unless she seeks further contact with you. Leave your name.

You just might learn some very interesting things via this interaction.

God Bless,

JL

I agree very much with JL and hope you follow his excellent advice. I would also share with her whatever evidence you have of the affair. She should know whatever you have that has led you to believe there is an affair.