misterjingles,

Dr Harley has this to say about domestic violence:

If I ever touch my wife like that again, it's over, that's what she made clear and what motivates me to never touch her like that. It's just that I do have angry outbursts though, ie raising my voice and trying to be controlling.

I still have nightmares of me abusing her, except I can only watch and do nothing, not even kill the son of a ****** that was myself in it...

thank you for posting that SF.
The best way MJ can show his committment to his wife is to recognize his limitations and put her safety above his wishes at this point. He cannot GUARANTEE her safety right now and they must not live together unil that is a given.

So I would discontinue all contact with her? Or just living with her? Can I still check up on her to make sure shes ok? Visit? Play games online with her?

::edit::

Wouldn't I be losing love while he's gaining?

I would say all contact for a short time...maybe you can write her love letters....asking nothing from her...but just telling her how you are doing with your personal recovery. Ask nothing of her and remain faithful throughout this...truly immerse yourself in figuring out why you are so reactive.
Also...apologize from the heart and never again live with her until you know these demons are behind you. I would say that if and when you are abloe to begin "courting" your wife again that you recognize the trust will come back slowly...if at all...that you will need to prove yourself to her over time in order for her to feel safe. Your wife should be given explicit instructions as to what to do int he event of another abusive episode. YOU need to be held accountable.
You are a good man for walking this road...but The Reason cannot be your wife...you need to do this for YOU. You don't want to be a man that abuses women...you wnat to BECOME a man that stands up against abusers and stands shoulder to shoulder with victims of abuse to make sure they are safe. Become your wife's champion.
I am proud of you for the first steps you have taken here.

I actually know what's making me so uneasy when she talks to this person, compared to her talking to her other male friends. It's because I feel he's a threat to our relationship, he's a threat because (even though I drove her to him) he has received the love of my wife, something I believe is sacred, and has almost had her completely, and still possibly does. He receives my ire because he was told that my wife had chosen me, yet still persists on bearing his emotions on her (from what I seen/remember).

I do want to be held accountable, I only know of the 1-800 hotlines for domestic violence, does anyone know information that can hold me accountable in the Sacramento, CA area?

And no, I do this for her, if she left me 2 months ago, I would've never known that everything that I've known and done, was wrong. I owe this to her, myself is only a secondary benefit.

MrJ...you need to be honest with yourself...
first, you were abusive long before this man came into the picture
Secon..if you are doing this for her and she leaves...where does that leave you in your personal recovery?

And talk to the person conducting your class as far as an accountability person....but that is a long way away when you and your wife can try and be a couple again.

If we're talking about what made me abuse her, then it was me closing up, I stopped being open with her at some point, I'm not entirely sure why, but I just closed up. Since I never talked about things, little problems were amplified, and bigger ones were ignored or exploded. Since problems were never resolved for my wife, she would try to talk it out while I want to ignore it to let it go away and hope it disappears. Stupid yes, but I stuck firmly with the fallacy that happy couples never fought, so I did everything in my power to never fight... sometimes it involved force. Now, I try to be as open as possible, nothing about me is hidden anymore from my wife.

I didn't enroll anger management/domestic violence because the court ordered me so, I did it because I finally listened to my wife, and not have the court force me to. I haven't touched my wife (physically and verbally) for the last two months. I'm going through this to make sure that I will never touch her like that again, and if I do, be held accountable. I trying to show her that I'm taking this seriously.

::edit to clarify::

Why don't you call up Dr. Harley on his radio show? Call in @ 11am CDT, or 9am your time.

Also, if you have some money to spare, you can do some individual conseling with Steve Harley. It is $180/hr, but he will help you to develop a plan based on your unique situation.

"We do live together, unfortunately, the neighborhood has become less safer these past couple of months (we had 3 break ins, one while we was away, another she saw the robbers face to face and was within arm reach of these 4 kids, and then another attempted break in while she was at home). So she feels less safe alone than shes does with me, except when I'm angry."

What a sad statement.

I suggest that the two of you live apart until you have a long period of time proving you will not abuse her. Otherwise I have very little hope for your long term recovery.

Would your wife consider posting here?

I think everyone on the forum knows that MEDC and I often don't get along...

...but...

I completely and totally agree with everything he's saying here. I think what he's advising (along with everyone else)is right on the money.

She's not safe with you right now. Two months isn't enough time for you to KNOW that you'll never hurt her like that again. You know that...hopefully, so does she.

The best thing you can do for her is to step back, and work on yourself. Make yourself a safe person to be around...and that's gonna take some work and time. Make the PERMANENT changes that will result you in being the kind of person and husband you need to be.

THEN you can see where things stand with the two of you.

Is it at all possible for her to move someplace safer? Like her parents or whatever?

And...you can ASK her not to see anyone else until you both have worked through things. But because of your history of violence, I don't think that its safe for you to try to do anything to end things if she is. The potential for violence against her over rules the normal process for marital recovery.

MEDC- Good advice, man.

jmwc95:
Does Dr. Harley take calls during the weekend? I work during the weekdays 8-5pm and I don't think it would be enough time to explain my situation on air.

Also, who's is Steve Harley? I'm assuming it's Dr. Harley's son and not some singer when I did a google seach...

believer + Owl:
When I brought up the idea/suggestion of me living separately for a while she felt the same way as I, and that is that we felt that I would be losing love from her while he was gaining. I have no doubt of her contacting this person, we've changed her cell phone number and she never has called him on it. She will, however, respond to this person when he initiates contact, which is the main source of my frustrations, because she still has feelings/loves this person. Even if she blocks his screen name on AIM or on WOW, he will go and create another screenname in game, on AIM, or on myspace. I do not know what they talk about, my wife says they talk about me, other than that I don't know and dare not ask.

As for the abuse, I only did it when I didn't want to solve out the issue and she would want to, by any means necessary, she would go up and turn off the monitor or screen or gaming console or do something that would get my attention, and because I wanted to ignore it, I would be getting angrier and angrier, until finally I snapped and then the abuse comes out. That is no excuse to what I've done but that is what happened. Now, I've been more open to her, I tell her how I'm feeling, what's bothering me, etc. Bascially I'm being radically honest with her, and it's good and bad, good because it was me avoiding the problem and not talking about it that made me abusive, bad because I realized last night I have a porn addiction, my only reason for it is that I really have no place to ask for anything at the moment, so I would just go on the internet and browse for porn, do my buisness and go on, sometimes if it really catches my interest, I would save it. If batman had the batcave for fighting crime then I had a folder deep inside my computer for the purpose of...porn. But it really affects her so I'm currently (as of last night) working on it, so if anyone knows any books to overcome this please PM me or post.

Also, I gave the link to my post yesterday about the same time that I made it, so she's reading it and we've agreed that the advice is 1000x better than where I first posted, it would be up to her if she wanted to post up on here.

misterjingles -

I just read through your thread, and I have to agree with the other posters that you need to sort yourself out before you are in a position to offer your wife what she needs. My H has been abusive with me (not frequently) - even a few times is enough to seriously damage your relationship, specifically her primary need in the R is to be safe. For example, you say you live in a bad neighborhood and she feels safer living with you than living alone, at this point....but for her, she is probably tense all the time, because she is basically "living with the enemy" - never sure when you are going to blow, or why....

The bottom line is that you don't have any right to hurt your spouse just because she does something that upsets you...I know my H has given himself permission to rage at me if I "push his buttons". He feels entitled, and that's what's essentially wrong. You've got to the point where you don't feel entitled anymore....which is a major step forward...

One of Harley's four rules of a good marriage is the Rule of Protection....marriage is about protecting your spouse, and protecting your relationship....only when you both see protecting your spouse and protecting your relationship as one of your primary roles in life, will you have a chance of a happy marriage.

You asked what more you can do....I don't think anything you can do at this point can stop her from leaving if she wants to...you know you can't force her to do anything, or control what she does....that is always going to back-fire on you....

I want to recommend to you, very strongly, that you go to a website called www.compassionpower.com - this is the website of Dr. Steven Stosny. He runs the most successful program for abusive men (and women) in the U.S. - you can order his book "You Don't Have to Take it Anymore" off the website. This book has helped me a lot. The book is written in two parts - the first part talks to the victim of the abuse - the second part is his Boot Camp for the abusive person. Dr. Stosny's approach is to re-awaken in the abusive partner his sense of compassion, which is what he has lost - he says it is the loss of compassion which makes abuse possible...the abuser loses the sense of what it feels like to be on the receiving end...because he does not want to feel pain....he shuts down so he won't have to feel the pain of the other person, and it is in that moment that abuse happens....and the abuser becomes addicted to blame and resentment....if he is willing to give up his addiction to blame and resentment, he has a chance to live life as a humane person, not an abuser...it sounds like that is what you want to be....a humane person, not an abuser....Dr. Stosny had an extremely abusive father, so he comes at the problem from personal experience, with a lot of compassion for both the victim and the abuser....

Right now it sounds like you are doing better in that you are learning a different way to handle your anger and frustration - by leaving, getting away from her and going out, going to the gym to work off steam....

But at some point, you have to learn how to stay in the same room with her while you are still mad, without abusing her verbally or physically....if you don't learn how to do this, she will always feel afraid of you, and you can't love a person you are afraid of....

I believe you can learn this with Dr. Stosny's program...since you are showing a sincere desire to change....

That's all the advice I can offer....

Mr Jingles...

You've hit on something that you SERIOUSLY need to consider.

As an effort to regain some sort of control in their lives, victims of abuse often end up INITIATING conflict in their relationships with the abuser. She knew that turning off the monitor would 'trigger' you...

That does NOT mean to say that she wanted the abuse. Its simply a function of what often happens in abusive relationships.

But this ties into one more reason why you need to focus on YOU first...

How can she be safe from you when this occurs?

And on contact with the OM...look...most of us here are former betrayed spouses. We know full well that the vast majority of time contact does not end immediately after d-day or when the wayward spouse 'agrees' to ending contact. It normally takes several attempts...each more hurtful to the BS than the last. The odds are VERY high that contact will reoccur.

How can you ensure her safety when that does happen?

Bluntly...I don't think that your odds of successfully recovering your marriage after what's happened are good at all. There's too much to overcome. And right now, your focus HAS TO BE ON CHANGING YOUR ABUSIVE WAYS...not on recovering/rebuilding your marriage.

You know the risks she's in if she stays with you right now. What you don't realize is how addictive affairs are. You probably also have never thought about the 'roles' that are played out in abusive relationship.

Right now...get yourself straightened out.

What does your individual counselor tell you to do in this situation?

As of last night, I discussed with my therapist what actions can I do to control my anger, he agrees that me taking the "time outs" and going to the gym are great, but in the event that I am not able to walk away he asked what would I do, I told him that I wanted to be held accountable if I ever touched my wife again, here is what we discussed:

[*]If I'm ever abusive again, she is to call 911 (with the recent break ins and her small voice, she can get 6 police units within 7 minutes flat, 3 of them will be k9 units)
[*]I have enrolled in my therapists program where he calls and checks up on my wife to see how she is doing. He can call whenever he wants (within reasonable times) but will call to see how she is if I ever leave the sessions distressed.
[*]I have given my wife my therapists number to call him whenever, I also have it too.

I knew that saying that I would never hit my wife is just all talk, so I needed to have some accountability that if I ever do, she knows what to do. I will never touch her like that again, and these were the steps that I took to make sure of that and I think/hope that this was a good start.

Your wife needs to get some counseling too. She should be in a women's group with other women that are facing her issues.

I hope she will post. We can help her.

My only advice to you is to continue counseling for the violence. You MUST get that under control.

Did you witness violence in your home as a child?

I agree with Believer.

Your wife needs counselling. She also needs some kind of SAFE venue that she can reach out for help to when/if you are abusive.

I think that you guys face another 'hurdle' you've not thought about.

One thing that can 'help' an abused person is having avenues of communication that they can safely reach out with if they're faced with their abuser. Lines of communication are hugely important to their safety.

BUT...WoW, and any kind of IM program...are NOT 'safe' for them to use. MMORPG's are inherintly addictive. I know...that's what led to my wife's EA as well. That's where she met OM, and continued on via MSN messenger, and then eventually led to phone conversations and would have gone to in person if I'd not caught it.

The odds are VERY high that part of your marital difficulties tie into online activities...your porn addiction, and she's likely got an internet/MMORPG addiction as well. Normally I'd suggest that you kill the internet to break these addictions...but I'm not sure that its safe to limit your wife's communication lines either.

I heartily suggest that you both get into counselling...and this needs to be an area that is worked out...a solution that takes the abuse into account should be sought out.

Again...this is why the abuse situation needs to be completely handled first, before your marriage recovery can even be considered. You're in a bad situation.

believer

I wouldn't say I have witnessed abuse as a child, but I did come from a divorced family, and didn't know the reason to why they did until later in life. They didn't communicate with me but they showered me with gifts, hence why my flawed thinking until recently, I didn't think that communication was that important because my parents never really tried communcating with me until it was too late.

owl
Avenues for communication for my wife that I can think of at the top of my head is her friends (internet and real life), her family (not at the moment, but she did communicate with them when they didn't throw judgement on her), my/our therapiast, and the police. It was the first two lines of communcation that kept her keep her sanity and not make her kill herself, it was also the first that lead to this relationship...

As for the internet, it didn't start out for her as an addiction per say, I was more addicted to the internet because I'm/we're both online gamers, I/we love(d) games, I believed it was a cheap way to spend time together, I turned it into our main source to spend time together, and when I immersed myself into WoW (this was our second MMORPG, our first was FFXI) and didn't follow my wife in game (I kept my real life friendship as a priority than just to keep with my wife) allowed their relationship to progress even further because I wasn't really spending time with her in game and in real life. Sadly, the internet ties into my and her lives too well, but it also serves as her main form of communication with network of friends, cutting it off would have a more negative impact than positive.

----

We did talk last night and I believe that we went leaps and bounds when we did. It was a heated argument, she had a lot of resentment pent up for me that I hoped she got to vent, I kept my taker in check and had my giver taking it all, I knew it was coming but to put it simply it hurt. I told her how I felt about their relationship and how their continued contact killed me inside, her future (with me and without me, as for the OM it was interesting and I'll get to it later), our fears, thier relationship, our relationship, like I said I believe that we've made some leaps and bounds.

The reason that I can guess to the reason for this was hopefully I got the rule of protection down, I didn't snap at her and didn't do any love busters, I just wanted to talk. I did tell her that I was angry at her, but I directed my anger at the OM because I was afraid I would hurt her, in my first post I said that I've sent her to Hawaii so she would be able to think by herself to decide who she really wanted to be with, but I felt that when we came back she was still keeping contact with him and I had a feeling of it, it was confirmed later on which is why I am so uneasy now. I told her that I was angry at the fact that we went to Hawaii, had the best time that we've ever had with each other for a while, she told me that she mde her decision and chose to be with me (because he did have a chance, he didn't take it because he wansn't in her schedule, but my wife clarified to me that he said that he was afraid that she didn't love him so he paniced and denied her...) and when we got back from Hawaii, it was like it never happened. That was the anger that I have for her, but I also explained why I still loathe this OM, because when she told him of her decision he became more persuassive, he even threatened to kill himself the day I broke down and I told her that I wanted to check in the Psycholocial ward for some antidepressants, he later said that he was in the hospital later on (he never really pulled through with it if he is still here) and that is why I hate this person so. It's still unresolved but at least I got out how and why I felt this way towards the OM, it's a start, to say the least.

She told me at the beginning of the week that she may be pregnant again, our first pregnacy ended in a ...miscarriage due to the stress that she was feeling in school and her brother going crazy (his wife cheated on him with his best friend/best man and he snapped, not at his wife though) and being sent to the psychological ward. I believe this was the event that made me close up to my wife... I didn't realise it until last night when we broughtit up again how much it really affected me, but it closed me, it hurts to know that something that was a part of me and her, that was growing in her for the 3 months until the miscarriage... be gone just like that. I know that is probably even a fraction of the loss that my wife felt... it wasn't growing inside me, but it hardened me... in the wrong way, our relationship suffered from that and I told my wife that I was sorry.

A particular thing happened while we were talking last night too, my wife told me that the OM said that when she told him that she may be pregnant, that she should have an abortion or have it adopted (which is totally the opposite to my wifes position, she got really angry at him for that), later he said that he would be willing to raise our child, as long as I wasn't in the picture (she got angry at him for this, she defended me, and he went on to say "Why are you making excuses for him?" and she got even more angrier) my wife tells me that he said that I planned on this happening and have her make me wear protection from now on so it won't happen.

She was concerned however, she doesn't want to be with me in fear of me abusing her while she is carrying our child or abusing the child and I told her I don't want to EVER abuse her or our child. I went over with her with what to do it I did do that (she said she would call the police and then beat me with this stick and then have the police take me or beat me with this stick and then call the police and have them pick me up... we're like that when we're happy, we have a strange sense of humor, that's why I love her so) We went on to talk about other things, like how she wants a girl, but I told her it's going to be a boy (it has to, I can't afford another her my wallet already aches from her alone but two? That's insanity!) And we finally got to just talk until the early hours of this morning (I've got less than 3 hours of sleep and yet it feels as if the weight of the world got lighter)

Although I'm still uneasy with her and the OM talking, it comforts me that he's in the hot seat now. Our talk last night was what we've needed and I'm more focused now towards fixing myself, and I'm hoping that I'm on the right track for my wife and our possible child.

::edit to add some clarification and some other stuff I remembered::

::edit2 just to add, there was plenty more things that we've discussed, I'll add more as I remember them::

I can't really give you any good advice on what to do with the affair. Any suggestions I've got on how to deal with that seem contrary to what you should be doing if you're attempting to recover a marriage from abuse.

You SERIOUSLY need to get this whole thing in the hands of PROFESSIONALS.

We can't guide you through this minefield.

This thing has been in the hands of professionals for the two weeks before I even posted, I guess I'm just looking for support (it was the reason my wife was able to handle all of this, her network of friends where I have little to none). My resolve has been shaken and where there was no doubts are now little whispers in the back of my mind.

It dosen't help that they talk even more now and my wife gave the OM the link to these post (at least he learned some things he didn't know about her).

There was more to this post... but those things said are going to be saved for another day (and it wasn't about hurting anyone, points for me for not having harmful thoughts!).