My wife and I had agreed to go over our emotional needs questionnaire in the evening. Part B “Evaluation of Spouse” for each EN. We completed part A in two previous nights, and were going to complete part B. There was concern that this discussion might cause an argument, but we both thought it was important. I have been extensively reading the threads and articles on the website, finished “His needs, Her needs” and have started “Love busters”. She has only read a small portion of the web site and has not started the book, but intends to. We are both optimistic that it contains valuable insights for us. We have discussed the possibility of separation or divorce, but do not want to consider it for the sake of the kids.

However, she called me at work to let me know that the evening would be busy. I had to work until 6:00 Our youngest DS had soccer practice at 6:00-7:00 The oldest DS had practice for a play at 7:00-8:30 and she had book club from 7:30-9:00 So, she said that they would eat at 5:30 and she would keep some warm for me. We usually eat dinner together as a family, 5-6 days a week. After Soccer practice, she called me to make sure it was ok for her to go to the book club, and for me to pick up our oldest DS. I felt cheated, because I hoped to discuss the rest of the questionaire, but said it would be ok. (My “giver” talking.)

When she returned from book club at 10:00, she came to chat to me about her evening, but I was in the middle of a game on my computer and didn’t engage in the conversation well. Even though I minimized the game and set the laptop on the ground, I was not giving her undivided attention. She noticed my lack of engagement, and said she was going upstairs. (Conversation is not a top 5 EN for either of us, but is more important to her) I said that I was sorry. I recognized that what I was doing was meaningless, but was still distracted by it. I asked her what she was going to do. She said that she was going to go upstairs, read a magazine, and watch TV. I said I would come up to watch TV with her in bed.

Affection is her #1 EN, and my third EN. SF is my #1 EN and 10th for her. I had hoped to show affection by cuddling with her for a half hour to an hour and have my SF met afterward. I asked her if that would be ok with her. She immediately became tense at the suggestion and said that she just needed some personal time to meet her own needs. I said that it would be a missed opportunity to meet one of my Emotional Needs. She then said that I was manipulative just like my Mom. If she said yes, then she wouldn’t get her needs met (personal time), if she said no, then what I said made her out to be the “bad guy”, but all I really wanted was to have my needs met (SF). I responded by saying that I thought it would meet both of our needs, Affection for her and SF for me. I thought it was a fair negotiation to meet both of our needs.

Am I misguided on the concept of negotiation? Was I manipulative by trying to offer something that I know she wants (Affection) in order to get what I want (SF)? If so, how would the MB concept of negotiation work in this situation, if at all?

Hmmmm - I'm surprised this juicy topic hasn't generated a response yet.

I'll wait to comment until the less cynical folks jump in, but in the meantime, you may be interested in a similar thread on the negotiating dynamics of the POJA:

See this thread

Slick move, but I can see why she wouldn't go for it. I'd classify cuddling to get sex as foreplay and part of SF. So you'd be getting two parts of your need met and none of hers. Your negotiation shows exactly why we need to be specific with each other about meeting needs. You were trying to meet her need in the way that you would want it met, not her.

Affection is her need. She should be the one to outline how it can be met in the best way.

Negotiation should be done during a non-emotional discussion. Trying to approach your wife about sex after you just failed to pay attention to what she was saying was super bad timing. Even to someone who ranks SF pretty highly, that's a huge turnoff.

Almost everything in marriage and in life is negotiable. You just need to know what the other person wants in return. So complete that first step of defining how you'd each like your needs met. I wouldn't phrase it as a one on one trade. Instead you both agree to do X amount of things for each other during a certain timeframe in an attempt to meet each other's needs and create a happier marriage.

Dobie:

Quote: “Slick move, but I can see why she wouldn't go for it. I'd classify cuddling to get sex as foreplay and part of SF. So you'd be getting two parts of your need met and none of hers. Your negotiation shows exactly why we need to be specific with each other about meeting needs. You were trying to meet her need in the way that you would want it met, not her. Affection is her need. She should be the one to outline how it can be met in the best way.”


The problem that I have had is that she has been reluctant to tell me how I can meet her needs. I have tried to inquire about this even before finding this site. In the past, she would say that people who are in love should know how to meet each other’s needs without being told how to do it. Or she would say that she did not want to tell me because then I would do it and it wouldn’t be spontaneous.

However, before reading your response, we did discuss part B of the ENQ which addresses how our needs can be better satisfied in marriage. Our discussion revealed to me what you have just written. With regards to affection, although she does want cuddling, she does not want it to lead to sex. I now see that it was a misguided attempt to negotiate because I was trying to only have my needs met.

After talking with her and reading your post I think I was also misguided in that I tried to negotiate both sides of the bargain. I would meet her need for affection (using my criteria) and she would meet my need for SF. I should let her define what she wants and how I can fulfill it.

This creates another problem for me however. I can’t meet her #1 need (affection) and my #1 need (SF) at the same time. Also, since affection is my #3 need, when we show affection, my libido is often aroused, so either I will be left frustrated or she will feel used. Do you have any ideas on how to deal with this?


ItIsWhatItIs:

Thank you for sharing the thread on POJA. We haven’t reached that part of our “self help” program yet, at least not mutually. I have read it, but she has not. Occasionally, if I sense that she is not enthusiastically in agreement with me, I do not do it. Since she has not read it, I have not expected her to reciprocate. This is probably a recipe for disaster if I let it go too long, but we can only work on one thing at a time.

P.S. I hope you are not too cynical about me. I have enough criticism to deal with already.

Here are a few ideas to get you started on how to show affection for your wife without it being physical.

Leave her notes that say tell her how much you love her. Generally, telling her specific reasons are a plus. "I love your sense of humor, your energy, your wisdom, etc."

Smile at her. Frequently. With eye contact.

Rent her favorite movies and watch them with her.

Text message or email her from work and say something nice.

Take in interest in her favorite hobby, author, etc. Learn about it and discuss it with her. Ask her questions.

Listen to her opinions about things respectfully.

Mention something you saw or heard that made you think about her in a positive way.

Buy her flowers for no particular reason.

Bring her coffee or tea in the morning.

If you can hug her or rub her feet without trying to hint that it should turn to sex, that shows that you can put her needs above her own.

Hide her favorite candy in a place where you know she'll find it.

There are a lot of opportunities out there. Some might be appropriate for your wife when others aren't. A lot can be combined with her other top needs. If she has a need for domestic support, join in and actively help her while she's doing laundry or dishes. Stuff like that.

In a lot of ways, showing affection is simply about paying attention to her.

I hope that you two get more comfortable with developing how to meet her needs together. Good luck!

Dobie:

Those are great ideas!!! I’m going to print these out and keep them available for when I need an idea. I can even think of a few more to add. When we completed Part B of the ENQ, she only listed hugs, kisses, and back scratches (Physical expressions of affection). I wonder if I should inquire further if some of these things would also meet her need for affection. I think I already know the answer though.

If I made it a habit to use non-physical expressions of affection, then when we had physical expressions of affection, that also led to sex, it might not be disappointing to her.

An interesting twist on this, though, is that I will be ignoring the actual suggestions that she listed on her ENQ and using things that she did not suggest. But as I mentioned in an earlier post, she is very reluctant to tell me what will satisfy her needs. This gets back to me trying to negotiate both sides of the bargain. So, I will certainly inquire about these suggestions before I implement them, or rather before I consider them to be meeting her needs.

But let me try to describe how I think that you are suggesting this to work in negotiating:

At the beginning of the day, I would offer to do a few of the things on the list, provided that at the end of the day, she would agree to have sex with me. If she agrees then we have used negotiation to get sex.

This seems rather mechanical and contrived, but neither of us are in intimacy. We are barely out of withdrawal and trying to hold our “Taker” in check. I think the ideal way this would work is for us to do these actions spontaneously and without a predetermined negotiation, but since this would require the “Giver” to be in charge, this might be a good way to work our way out of conflict as an intermediate step.

Do I understand you correctly or am I still misguided?

Usually it's more of a "What I'd most appreciate is sex at least twice a week" countered by "I'd like you to do dishes with me three times a week". Insert both of your own wants. It's not a contract as much as an agreement that you'll try to meet each other's needs. Try to keep it light and remember that it's a skill that takes practice, so it may not work well at first.

Yep, follow Dobie's list of suggestions!!! I'd be ripping my man's clothes off after a week of those. Fill her up and reap the rewards. The rewards won't be simultanious for both of you YET and it may take some time & effort on your part till she feels your sincerity, but eventually she will. Then, be ready for your love bucket to be overflowing & needs met!!!

Good luck! Keep it up. Dobie has outlined the path to success!

Sorry I havent posted in a while. The advice seemed to work. However, it did not seem to last.

I started to use the suggestions, and after asking her if they would meet her emotional needs. She scratched one and added one. But she was very appreciative that I would try to make a list of things I could do. Shortly thereafter, she met my need for SF. I continued using the suggestion the next day and the the following morning. But I sensed that she was uptight the second morning and she spoke rudely to me. Initially, I responded by asking her why she was speaking to me that way, and she apologized. But it continued, and eventually I spoke rudely back. It then erupted into a fight that lasted for 16 days. The range of intensity was from cool but cordial greetings by both of us to intense verbal anger by her. She also kicked and punched me during the worst part of the fight. After which, I slept in the basement. During the 16 days, I tried to hug her a few times, but she ignored the attempts.

The fighting ended when she found out that a friend of hers separated from her husband. I listened to the story and when she went to bed, I hugged her. The next day, she offered to meet my need for SF.

Since then, I have been using all the suggestions again, and she has been responding with appreciation, but has not agreed to meeting my need for SF. When I suggested it, she told me that she just met my need a day and a half earlier, that should be enough for me. I told her that it was my EN, I should be able to know if it is enough. (When we originally did the ENQ, I said that I needed SF 2-4 times per week and she laughed at me.)

I understand that I have to focus on what I am doing for her, but: 1.) Do I have to continue to wait until she thinks that I have waited long enough? 2.) Am I unreasonable in seeking to have my SF need met as soon as I did?

have you tried initiating in the middle of the night?