My story -

In 2003 I returned from a two week annual training exercise with one thing on my mind. However, upon my return found my wife slighlty intoxicated and ultimately did not experience any intimate relations with her that night. The next day I overheard her talking to a girlfriend telling her what a "crummy husband and father" I was. I confronted her and it resulted in a huge argument that lasted for days. Eventually when we made up and were able to spend some intimate time together, she communicated to me that she no longer wanted to have "oral sex". I interpreted this as not wanting to give anymore BJ's.

No big deal. A few days later, I proceeded to go down on her and she interupted me and again stated that she did not want to have any oral sex. Of course, I had to inquire (as my cunningless talents are beyond repore). She state that "just because she enjoyed it did not make it right".

Our relationship immediately started to diminish and she dictated that we would no longer have sex at night, after drinking and only during am hours before the kids awoke.

That was five years ago and things have continued to decline. Now I am lucky to get laid 2 times per month and it usually consist of her lying on her back spreading her legs and 5-10 minutes later the episode is over.

I initially had doubts when I discovered that she could no longer look into my eyes (Constantly looked away), I consider the eyes to be the "key hole to the sole". At any rate, I started paying a little more close attention to small things in the house and discovered that when I return home there is not ONE pair of dirty undergarments in the house, NEVER!.

I work out of town during the week but sometimes manage to get home more than just on the weekends and still have not found any drity or soiled undergarments (maybe I am mad or reaching for straws). At any rate, when I return home unannounced it does seem to irritate her.

I monitor her phone calls and have overheard her talking with her sister about me returning unannounced really bothering her "makes her feel as though I am trying to sneak up on her etc". In addition, she constantly communicates her dissatisfaction with our sex relationship and even stated that if she never had to have sex again it would not bother her at all.

At this point as with other men's post I am really confused about where this is at and where this is going.

Point:

1) She presents herslef as a "God Fearing Catholic" goes to church every sunday.

2) With the young ones in the home, I have difficulty in believing that she has the opportunity for an affair.

3) In addition, her being a full time stay at home mother would give her limited time available as well. (we have very nosy neighbors that would report any strange occurances while I am away)

Concerns:


1) I personally think that something did occur five years agao when all this started. (To drastic of a change in our relationship) so maybe the guilt has been hanging on?

3) Do not have any concrete evidence that something has or is occurring.

Question:

If my wife is displaying many of the characteristics that is she really having an affair?

Would religious affiliations make a difference?

We have had two serious discussions within the last three weeks attempting to find out what has brought on the changes. I was told two weeks agao that the reasons for the changes was "because she had lost respect for me related to poor decisions related to career moves".

Then last Sunday she tells me that the reason was "In my 20's, I was a slut and felt like nothing more than a P-ssy and t-ts, and she had finally able to develop some some esteem" and decided that she no longer wanted those things anymore".

Leaves me hanging? Anybody able to shed any light on my delema?

I know that this is lengthy post (sorry), I would appreciate any feedbak and thank you for your time and consideration.

I would continue to snoop while pushing for marriage counseling. Work on meeting her ENs, avoid lovebusters, and try and put your needs on hold for a while until you figure what is going on. Sometimes you need to lead by example. If she thinks she is just t*ts and p*ssy, show her that she isn't. Tell her how you feel about your sex life and that you are going to do whatever it takes to make lovemaking pleasurable for her as well, even if it means putting your needs on hold and not having sex with her for a while.

install a keylogger on your computer. Something is amiss here.

Digital recorder.

Under the sofa and in the car.

This post may come accross as tough...but I'm gonna assume that if you are here for help to fix your marriage...then you are willing to do and face things that may not seem FAIR....

lets break it down...

upon my return found my wife slighlty intoxicated and ultimately did not experience any intimate relations with her that night.

DOES your wife have a drinking problem...

if yes...
get yourself to ALA-NON


The next day I overheard her talking to a girlfriend telling her what a "crummy husband and father" I was. I confronted her and it resulted in a huge argument that lasted for days.

were you
could you
have you
taken any of her 'complaints' about you being a lousy husband and dad and give them any validity and then made changes to show that you heard her....

what exactly does she claim made you lousy
and
what have you changed....

all the sex issues...is it clear to you that men communicate closeness and intimacy with the act of sex....
(generally speaking) and women fill intimacy through talk and connection ..leading to sexual contact....

are you
do you
romance
charm
compliment
and seduce your wife....

if no
why not

Would religious affiliations make a difference?
do you participate in services with her
do you support her religious activities
what were the pre-marraige understanding of religion in your marriage


because she had lost respect for me related to poor decisions related to career moves".

is there a history of unilateral career choices....
are you willing to this day change your work schedule...
does she carry the burdon of most of housekeeping and child raising if you are out of town...most every week

do you have a lot of freedom with your job

what is the tone in home

is it
warm
supportive
are you helpful with chores
do you take the kids so she can go out

do you two spend time together
do you date eachother...even at home with kids...

this is marriage builders...
this post is mostly and all about YOUR actions...
not becuase you are the bad guy
not because you are wrong

but because YOU are here...and only you can change you...and often creating changes in you will creat change in the marriage and in her........

are you willing to drop a lot of pre held beliefs of entitlement about marriage...

and work at building a marriage worthy of you and her...

welcome here if you are

ARK

One more question:

Do you think

that she thinks

YOU are having an affair - or did?

first of all
i would like to say i admire you for posting here and
for trying to "fix" your marriage

Ark and Schoolbus raised logical points

so for us to be able to help you

can you please reply to their questions

i have my opinions but will wait for your reply to validate some points

ARK,

Thanks for the reply. Here are the answer to all of your questions.

Drinking problem? – Define "problem". She drinks mostly every other day and unfortunately is unable to stop after a few.

Crummy Husband – I consider myself to be an excellent father. Very patient with the children, stern when I need to be. Very supportive of mothers decisions. I cool, clean, and baby sit when I need to. Always clean up after myself.

Sex – she has admitted most recently that she avoids "touches" for fear that it will lead to a sexual encounter. She avoids coming to bed when I do for fear that it will lead to a sexual encounter. There is no intimacy. Her body language is very different than her words "she closes her eyes when we have an encounter, she is unable to look at me in the eyes. Hers are always dashing to the left or right..

Religion – Yes we mutually decided to be "Catholic" as a family. I was raised Baptist.

Affair – Yes she had suspicions in 2001, but they were not true or validated. She was in her third trimester at the time.

I have become deeply depressed about this whole incident. I feel as though I don’t even know who she is and that our relationship up to this point has been ALL lies and false pretenses. I am extremely troubled that she waited until we had children before all these changes came about. For that I am very DISPLEASED.

I am at the point of making one of three decisions:

- Divorce
- Open marriage
- Reconciliation

I don’t know. I need time to myself and most of the time feel exhausted physically and mentally.

Not to mention the mental cruelty that I have put up with in the last five years.

Thanks again for your time and consideration.

Well...open marriage isn't christian of any denomination that I know of, so I'd assume that's really not an option for you, right?

It sounds to me as though your wife needs therapy. Actually, I think both of you do. Have you looked into counseling for the two of you, and for her to help her treat her "sexual aversion"?

What she's got is a real thing...and its treatable as far as I know.

LTK-
I wish you would go back and read Schoolbus's post again and really respond
to all that she brought up. She said things that I am wondering about as well.

I wonder how your wife would describe you and your marriage.

I suspect that SF is very high on your EN list and low on hers. However,
if you are not meeting her EN's, I doubt she is interested in SF with you.

There is some sort of tone to your posts that leave me feeling uncomfortable.

And the fact that you would even list "open marriage" as any sort of solution is very telling also.
That screams of entitlement to me. As in, you believe you are so entitled to SF
(regardless of the state of the rest of your marriage), that you will seek it elsewhere if you need to.

Others are free to disagree.

Just my observatory 2 cents....

Drinking problem? – Define "problem". She drinks mostly every other day and unfortunately is unable to stop after a few.

unable to stop after a few is the key word to problem...seriously consider ala-non..the deal is though you can't go to ala-non and leave her in custodial care of the children...you at meeting...she drinking while watching kids...ugghhh not a good mix....



I consider myself to be an excellent father. Very patient with the children, stern when I need to be. Very supportive of mothers decisions. I cool, clean, and baby sit when I need to. Always clean up after myself.

I believe you ...but you may want to consider is figuring out her trumped up charges about your deficiencies and de-bunking them...not by verbally powerstruggling or argueing but by changing the action...

are there things you can change?

like you equal bad husband cause you leave dishes in the sink...(truth is we ALL leave dishes in the sink in the sink sometimes but listen to her words...and can you change it even if its silly or minor....

her attacks at you are her own self loathing turned on to you ....
they are shallow empty straws and you are the deflection and distraction from her having to look at her actions and treatment of you...

the more she can trump up things against you and keep the focus on you and all you "shortcomings"...then she is off the hook...

Religion – Yes we mutually decided to be "Catholic" as a family. I was raised Baptist

do you attend services together

I have become deeply depressed about this whole incident

seek out your dr get a physical and see if you should be on something...that answers as different as each one here...

here's my suggestion
marriage builders is all about the creation of a plan....
and trying new things....

pick a six month mark to give everything a new try from you...
look at it this way you've been living in this chaos for years...so whats another six months...but atleast YOU will be doing things differently....

You step up your attention to her...in other words plan A BUT you don't ever really let on...

you become mysterious to her in certain ways.....

you gotta six month time line...

you woo her...
not in the act of sex...but in tiny little things...

bring her coffee/drink she likes
pick up a favorite dessert and surprise
make her a CD of old favorites
short sweet touches....
grab her for a dance in the kitchen....
blow bubbles with the kids
have marshmellow battles with the little ones and always draw her in to you and the family...

give her a certificate out of the blue for a massage or hair cut or manicure...

buy her something new

speak of old memories...
I remember the day we ....you were so ......... to me that day....

remember dear when we went to ........... and how much fun that was..

talk to her like you want to talk to her
come home like you couldn't wait to see her...

etc etc etc

not all once
not in an overwhelming way..little by little...
whisper of ACTS of love and cherishing
slowly
insidiously even

if the environment in your home has become a curt tensive one...change it....to the best of your ability...
be light hearted
be smiley


ask her things like how she is
how is was her day

my suggestion NO sex...for a while.....show her that you can have physical touches and NO sex.....so you touch her...even if it's in bed...then you kiss her on the forhead and say..
I love you dear very much....
and roll over and go to sleep...

(I know this really hard)

again this is not fair..
but its debunking the layers of bull#$%# to see what's really at the root...

any garuntees this will work...nope..but it IS different...

set up marriage counseling....
and if she won't go with you you go alone...
seek a marriage encounter weekends through your church
call the counseling center here....
ASAP

break the cycles of dispair that you currently participate always without argueing or blame...

change YOU

For that I am very DISPLEASED

let it go..
view her as someone to win over...
get on your side.....

your own frustration hurt and pain plays as big as a role in continueing this cycle of pain....

break your part....

I know this sounds crazy
be happy
be fun
blah blah blah ...but here's the thing.....

and what you really want is this all to be fixed...

...right now in your life ..any relationship talk is doomed to fail from the get go....

both of you are so bogged down by the hurt...that you can't remember why it would even be worth fixing any of it at this time...


the thought is to
work on letting go of the tension...in the home
working towards a safe place to communicate..
working towards focusing on the positive and not the negative...etc etc


was your wife abused....

time lines can be your savior..if you know you are only go to be this giving with no expectations for a short time can you survive it....

also you should re-evaluate in a few months and see if any thing is working....

and then consider that you will need to be seeking full custody based on fact you can't leave a drinking woman in charge of the kids...
so you will need to seek legal counsel without her knowing to see what your rights are and what you need to do....

you need a very pro marriage counselor to guide you through this...

you need to see the challenge here not fix things
not to reconcile
not to have heart wrenching breakthrough...

but to see if two can once again be friends and earn eachothers trust and respect...you get that...and it will work out no matter the outcome...

imagine having divorcing right now..
and the fights and battles that will ensue...
the agony the children would suffer if you two cant' even be civil...
that's not what you would want for them...

what about the job issue and decision
any truth to that....

ARK

Some truths about the job decisions. I needed to start a career and we moved to upper Wisconsin to be closer to her family. I am a Nurse Practitioner and the potential for growth was not in a small town in Northern Wisconsin. Every moved that I have made were with one objective, secure long term employment with room to grow, higher salary to benefit the family. These things were communicated to her prior to decision making. I don't know what to really think in terms of the alcohol issue. I drink beer on a regular basis but can stop easily without difficulty.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions, I'll take them to heart. What I really would like to know is why.

I left her a note before I left to return to work on Monday morning:

"I really love you and want us to work out. You are a beautiful woman. However, I am confused as to why these changes took place, first you told me that it was because you lost respect for me then it was because you "found yourself"? I went on to say that our relationship would not survive without honesty and the only thing that would bother me more than infidelity would be to find out that she either lied to me or withheld information. Take care and have a good day".

She called me and stated that she would "swear on the bible that she has never had an affair or even wanted to".

So how can I disbelieve that??

I am currently trying to explore opportunities for employment in the town were we live.

Dont misunderstand me, I think that she is a good woman. She exercises regularly, is very active in the church and with the kids. But then again, thats my take before all this happened. As stated, I dont feel as if I know her anymore.

I-am-so-grateful -

Thanks for your time and consideration. I did answer Schoolbus's question. There was one incident that she was accusatory, but nothing happened and was not validated.

What does "SF" stand for? If it has something to do with sex I can only tell you that I am NOT demanding, never asked her to do anything that she felt uncomfortable with. Do I get irritated? Absolutely and based on the physical needs that men normally have, I feel validated. What other options did I leave out in my possible decision making choices?

The decisions were of three things that are going through my mind in the current state that I am in. As stated, I am depressed and confused as to what is actually happening here. I should not want to seek gradification from anyone outside my marital relationship, but as I understand it that is at times, the reason that men or women stray?

Thanks again. Please by all means "have at it"

First off...all WS's (wayward spouses) have one thing in common...they will lie in any fashion they need to in order to protect the affair. So her statement wouldn't mean anything if she is involved with somone else.

With that said...

I think she is suffering from "sexual aversion".

You need to get her to talk with an IC/therpaist/psychiatrist who can help her diagnose and treat this.

I would say that the amount of drinking you say she is doing is a very big problem, and it has been my experience that with problem drinking comes not only an inability to face any issues, but a lack of desire to in the first place.

You do know that alcohol is a depressant, right? It also has an invasive quality that causes depression in the home, not just for the user.

I suggest you take all of Ark's suggestions, as well as stop drinking beer yourself. And I'm not against drinking per se, however you have many problems in your home and drinking is not helping anyone face them. Heavy drinking to that axcess is a way to avoid problems and numb oneself.

But change can only start with you and you need to get out of your depression first.

Excellant advice from all responders. I have never thought if the drinking considering how well she takes care of herself otherwise. Is sexual aversion an acceptable dx?

Thanks again for all of you alls input and suggestions in response to my post. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What I really would like to know is why.

doesn't matter right now why...

the true whys come with true marital recovery...

right now you get the exact type of bogus answers she is capable...

the untrue whys...

becasue x number of years ago you were a slut....

is NOT the answer to why...

but that's the one that makes it all about you and not her...

I'd even drop the affair question...

she's not ready to tell the truth about any of this...

was there an affair..

I have no idea...
but I know that powertstuggling it in to the ground....won't get you any where....

you could install a keylogger if that seems to be her most accessable way to have an emotional affair or whatever...

this is not the time to gather answers...
answers now will be false and forced....

this is the time to rebuild trust so that the truth may be spoken....
down the road when both of you are clear of its value...

she's lieing to you now...
she's not unhappy cause you were a slut... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

she lieing because she hurst horribly inside...and it's easier to hurt you ...than face her own actions/responsiblility....

ARKie

Lt:

I may have missed it, but I didn't see an answer to the question about whether you attended religious services with your spouse.

Lots of good suggestions have already been thrown at you. The three that really seem to apply to your case, IMHO, are getting a key logger, having your spouse seek counseling, and trying new things.

Good luck.

Ark,

I really appreciate your straightforward manner!! Straight to the point, honest, no BS. Have not been responded to in that way in a long time. Makes me feel like a man. Most appreciated.

O.K. so what is your recommendation for my next move? I was planning to go home this evening, but I not sure if that is best. If we managed to be civil (we are friends also), I know that she will feel compelled for an intimate encounter (gives her a feeling of power over me and makes her feel that I will be subserviant until I get horny again.

This is the game that has obviousely been played for the last 5 years. Most of the time, I get nothing until I threaten divorce or separation. In retrospect it appears as a viscious cycle that I was unaware of.

Needless to say that it does not erase the fact that my relationship from start to date was based on obligation and lies.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LTK:

I'm going to come at this from a different Direction.

You state that you are not home during the week.

HOW much of an issue is that in your M? You NOT being home can create much resentment in your spouse. Because you are not THERE.

What could you do to change that?

And for this description of your SF:



Above Repore? YET she pushes you away? I would review my techniques there.

AND what it has devolved to and the restrictions placed by her are VERY scary as well.

However, IF your W was/is in an EA/PA, her rejection of you starts to make sense.

The other explanation is that all the things you claim (excellent father, lover, husband), are not necessarirly seen by her in the same light.

You THINK your doing good in all those areas, but since your spouse wants you to exceed her expections, in this area, which your aren't, and she hasn't told you that, at least not directly, then all the other stuff doesn't matter.

That's why we call them emotional needs. EN's for short. And you need to learn what these things are, both for you and especially for your W. And then start meeting them. She might not start meeting yours for a long time, but if you meet HER EN's regularly and without fail, than your SF with her will improve, and she will be on the phone with her GF's telling them "HOW great you ARE"

Buy "His Needs, Her Needs" (HNHN) from this website. Don't wait to find it in the store.

Although much of the information in that book is available on this website, having it ALL in one book, makes the concepts so much easier to grasp when we start helping you on your journey.

Pick up the lingo around here and it makes things alot easier.

BTW, your W has all the time in the world to have an A. Your not home, and the kids are ignored while she is in affair-land.

Sorry you have to be here, but it is and excellent source of information, support and guidance.

LG