RLT,

Just a thought here...

The old things have passed away and all things are made new.

Before meeting the Savior, we tend to think of "sin" as line to be crossed. In reality we find that it is a direction (or a mind-set.) The word "repent" actually means "to think again" or change our mind. The problem is that some of our old habits stick around for a while (IE: withholding information that may be relevant)


Sometimes, artifacts of an affair can surface for a long time after the fact. Within the last few months I have "discovered" things that I wish had all been destroyed. In one case it ate at me for a week before I brought it up. My wife claimed she had forgotten of its existence and destroyed it at once. The content still bothered me, and in fact still does to some extent, but the immediate action meant a lot.

But if I had not mentioned it to her, it would still be floating around in the bottom of her briefcase where she might have found it on a day that was less than perfect and checking it out begun to think about OM and about things of old. Not what I had in mind in the way of recovery.

Mr RLT,

FWIW, the secret to avoiding all of this is PORH.

Just share everything with RLT and when it is TMI let her tell you to stop. Hide NOTHING and don't get defensive when she inquires about anything.

If you can swing it somehow, take the polygraph, just to ease her mind. Show her that you can be trusted in every aspect of your life and eventually she should begin to trust you.

As a guess, part of the problem may be related to the fact that you probably tend to not share as much of yourself with her as a general rule as she would like. Hence, when she finds something...ANYTHING that she did not know about, she is sent into a tizzy wondering if you are hiding something on purpose or just being dumb. At least for now, nothing should be too trivial to share. As she gets accustomed to your honesty, she will begin to expect less detail about mundane things.

If she is like my wife, just the sharing of every day things is what she craves. Opening yourself up to her, about work, your thoughts, your dreams, your normal routine, will give her a deeper appreciation of you and your point of view.

If you haven't already done so, read this article by Dr Harley>>> Why Women Leave Men

If you wish to discuss anything, feel free to email me, but unless there is some compelling reason to do otherwise, any replies to either of you will be cc to the other.

Mark

QUICK NOTE TO SELF, RLT: If you were a party who was in fact innocent and yet wrongly accused of something that was difficult to prove, how would YOU prove your innocence?

The reason I ask is that while your hubby deserves some scrutiny due to the fact that he's a FORMER wayward--what if he were innocent? How could he possibly "prove" that? On one hand I think it's reasonable for you to snoop and for him to say to himself, "I sort of deserve some of this mistrust due to my past choices"--but OTOH there are some accusations that are just IMPOSSIBLE to prove innocence (like emotional abuse).

Soooooo...it's reasonable to be cautious and wary--but also try to stay open to the possibility that maybe there is not guilt. How would you prove yourself innocent??

Mr. RLT--IF BY CHANCE you are innocent and you are reading this, here is my advice to you. After work, take RLT to your office, show her your computer, let her snoop around and show her that you have been saving your IMs and not deleting stuff all over. If you have nothing to hide (and that's a big IF) then let her see. I save my IMs so that my hubby can ALWAYS see any communication I have with anyone. Let her look. If she asks for something and it feels a little snoopy, let her have free access because you two are a partnership and a team now--anything that happens to you, she has the right to know.

AND...if OW contacted you via IM or email and you just deleted it and didn't think of it again, do not hide it from RLT. The thing that hurts a BS is DISCOVERING stuff, not honesty. Honesty can indeed hurt sometimes, but there's that consolation that "at least he was honest"...but if she DISCOVERS something and then you say, "Well I didn't want ot upset you" then everything flies out the window and everything you have said and done up to this point is not trusted.

I'll be praying for ya both!!

Your faithful friend,



CJ

From Why Women Leave Men

"But the mental cruelty they describe is rarely the result of their husband's efforts to drive them crazy. It is usually husbands being indifferent, failing to communicate and demonstrating other forms of neglect."

"Some of the common complaints I hear from women is, "He ignores me except when he wants sex, he sits and watches television when he could be talking to me, he rarely calls me to see how I'm doing, he hurts my feelings and then never apologizes."

Yep on both quotes. I constantly complained about his Indifference. And the second quote, well I've said that one a hundred times a least over the years.

I like the article because I have always been relegated to only one room, wasn't allowed in any of the others.

Faithful, I thought of going to his office myself, but if there was anything to hide, it's probably gone by now.

I really do want to trust and believe in him. I really do. It's just so dang difficult. I believe he wants to change, but that he stil does struggle with "sticking points." His habits have been so part of his life that I sometimes think he doesn't even know when he is doing something he shouldn't. (blame shifting, entitlement) He still hangs on to these things from time to time.

Lying, though, is something quite different. He HAS to know when he is lying. And I simply can't go there with him anymore.

He can't prove his innocence on this. So that leaves me with the old "leap of faith" option again.

I just really want to know how the address got there. But he says he is clueless.

Mr. RLT, if you truly had nothing to do with how that addy got into your contacts, it is imperative to figure out how it did so you can block it from happening again. And if you did have something to do with how it got there, it is imperative that you share that with RLT, also.

On more than one occasion, our OW got into my H's email, but it was remotely accessed (Yahoo). I know almost nothing about the type you have. But no matter how far you have to go, or how much you have to do, it is your job to protect your Mrs. from further harm. I want to really encourage you to do/keep doing that, because the dividends will be fantastic.

RLT, I can't tell you if you can believe your H or not. But as one who has been through both kinds of recoveries - true and false - you can develop a confidence in your own internal affairometer. This is not dependent on any one thing he says or does, but takes into account the whole picture, and whether the things you are able to verify do, in fact, check out ok.

Your first urges may be a quick rush to judgment, which is normal after what you've been through, but just remember there is no hurry to do anything. If your H follows through with being open and not defensive about being accountable to you, that should go a long way toward helping you to feel more comfortable. You will be able to find a balance between being blind or too hasty, where your eyes are wide open, and you are open to whatever answer you get.

At least this answers your question of if he is browsing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It didn't just get in your contacts by Osmosis. He's either recieved an email from her or he's sent her one. Simple as that.

Okay, this is what is going on.

We had a great Fri and Sat.--but, he said nothing about the email issue. Sunday, I (as in, ME!) had to bring it up.
He continued, and continues to know nothing about it. So, I said, did you read on MB about suggesting to take a polygraph?

He answered no.

Then I re-asked the question.

Then he said -- Yes.

Okay, so you're lying about not seeing a post on a polygraph. How F--ING Ironic is that.

Then, he gets hugely defensive about the whole polygraph idea. He said he will NOT take a polygraph. He said I am using that as a tool.

Then he went into, "Why did you bring us here when things were so gret?" Why do you do this. Will this ever end? I'm tired of answering affair questions. I don't ever want to do it again. This is the last time we are having an affair talk.

O-M-G--he went on and on. He went into denial, defensive, entitlement behavior.

He said that he WOULD answer questions on a polygraph concerning contact, that there IS NO CONTACT.

However, he will NOT answer questions about the affair, itself. Why? Because, he says, it is OVER, and he will not answer any more questions about it.

That's his story, and he's sticking to it.

Oh RLT, I know what you're going through. I am so sorry.

Just to let you know, my H reacted and said pretty much the same things your H did regarding taking a poly. I know I am repeating myself from other posts, but your H may not have read it.

The only difference was when my H had his reaction, he was also reacting to the fact that it was a necessity for me to stay in the marriage. I caught my H in lies and I couldn't continue with a liar. I wanted happiness and I wasn't going to get it with a liar. It was a poly or divorce.

For the first few days, he decided on divorce. A few days later, he decided he wanted to keep the marriage and that's when he started purging the lies he had been telling me to my face, throughout our recovery up to that point.

My H's decision to take the poly, and the lies that were purged, were necessary to begin a TRUE recovery. Even though my H is sorry he has hurt me, he is also relieved at the same time that he was able to get it out and not have to hide it all anymore.

Your H MAY not be keeping quite as much from you as mine did, but it's my gut feeling that he is keeping some things from you I'm sorry to say. I hope I'm wrong. As long as there are secrets and lies, you will NOT recover wholly, healthy, and happily.

The disclosures have been hard, but the uneasiness I felt when I thought he was lying to me, has lessened in a different way. I still have a very difficult time believing him now though, which is a result of all the lying, so I just watch his actions.

Mr. RLT, in my opinion, should be doing this for you if he you values you and your sanity. If he's innocent, he'll have given you a great gift. It is worth the expense.

He's a liar RLT. Pure and simple.

If your H is refusing to take the test... I would NEVER trust one single word that comes out of his mouth. He is a liar and should be handled as such.
His reasons for the email stuff and most likely everything are chock full of lies. Liars lie RLT.

Mr. RLT.... be a man instead of the weak coward that you are showing yourself to be right now. Take the test and out your the mind of the woman you betrayed at ease. YOU did this...now you fix it.

I read her post to say that hubby DOES agree to answer questions on a poly about contact. I think that's a good sign.

This week, I had the unpleasant shock of seeing the name of my deceased best friend appear on my contact list, after I deleted the name after the funeral, years ago.It was not there last week. The new Windows Live thing added back a lot of names, some who I have never even sent an email to.

Sometimes things are not as simple as they seem. Hubby says he will answer the "No Contact" questions..so go for it! It is possible he is lying, but it is also possible he is not. It would be a shame to throw away your marriage over a ghost from the past, if he is truly in NO CONTACT now.

What does your gut tell you, RLT?

Thank you for helping RLT to see through me.
I am a LIAR.
This recent episode, brought out a huge lie that I have been keeping from her.
It caused me to admit that there was conact during a period of time that I had been denying.
Although there has been no contact since I returned home last November, there was contact up until the time I did returned home after those 3 days...
I finally ended it for good with OW at that time.

RLT allowed me to come home again, and I committed myself to saving the marriage that I was destroying. I wrote the no contact aggreement, and have honored it, but I kept this lie of prior contact from RLT.
We have been to MC, and we have renewed our vows, but I continued to keep this lie from her and everyone.
I have dis-honored my wife.
I made her believe that it was her fault that we were not moving forward, when infact it was My lie that was holding us back.
Even my last post on MB was a lie, stating that I had nothing to hide. How sick was that?
I am writing this to appologize to all of you, and especially to my wife.
Many of you know her and our situation, and what I have put her through...
Please help her again, for I have destroyed the last bit of hope that she had.
Thank you for all of the help and guidance you have given her, and tried to give me.
I have alot of praying to do.
Sincerely,
FWHofRLT

FWHofRLT...

Does this mean that you are willing to take the polygraph? See, I think that you should, and I'll tell you why...1. It is the LEAST you could do at this point for RLT and 2. If you are telling the WHOLE truth now, then I'd think that you would be DYING to prove that, because I guarantee you that she will have doubts, I know that I would, wouldn't you? Right now, you should be totally humble, completely at her mercy and praying that she will want to stay with you...You have NO RIGHT to deny her anything that she needs right now and I sure hope that you agree...If not, then I gotta tell ya that I don't think she should stay with you...

Anyway, that is my take FWIW...

Mrs. W

I think it is great that you have come clean with this bit of honesty. My experience with people confronted with the polygraph is that they will come through with at least a partial truth to Appear as though the threat of the exam has forced them to come clean. Mr. RLT I do not know you...but I know human nature and it is my belief that when there is one lie told...others...usually bigger are lurking just below the surface.
Try and recognize the blow to your long term credibility by being able to lie so convincingly. If I read the signature line correctly...you were even lying the day you renewed your wedding vows. Imagine the shadow that casts on your words.
Is it embarrassing to have to take a polygraph...yes...but you need to get over it. Embarrassment does not begin to compare to the daily hurt that lies and doubt cause a BS. So, suck it up...agree to take the test and then TAKE IT.
Mrs. RLT...help save your H from himself....do not back down on his taking this test. It will be the best thing that you two have ever done for one another.

Yes, MEDC, you're reading the sig. line correctly.

Before God and everyone ...

I am sick beyond what I can say here.

Yesterday was one of the worst days of my life.

Amazing what the mere mention of a polygraph will bring out.

Early this morning I not only learned about the extended contact, I also learned that he is not a one time cheater, but a serial cheater.

My brain can't hold it all in right now.
I want to throw up.

Sorry to hear that - it must be particularly devastating to not only have the final(?) truth now, but to know that lies continued on even during supposed recovery.

OTOH, there's now a possibility for a deep emotional intimacy to develop between the two of you, one that apparently was prevented from forming because of his continued lying.

{{{RLTRAVELED}}}

MIM...he hasn't told everything yet...so there really is no chance at recovery yet.

RLTWH...how does all this make you feel??? Are you sufficiently ashamed of your actions that you are now willing to make everything right...starting with a polygraph. Obviously you must see that your words at this point mean nothing. If you can't immediately submit to a test then you obviously care little about your wife's feelings.

RLT...I would say that either he gets this polygraph done by weeks end or you file for divorce. This has gone on long enough and YOU need to put a stop to it. The fact that he was willing to tarnish your vow renewal in the way that he did clearly shows that he still maintains the WS moniker. I am sorry for the pain that you are dealing with right now...but the biggest mistake you could make here is giving him even one inch of credit...he has to earn everything from this point forward.

I make it a personal habit to never agree with MEDC...

But he's right. There is NO reason to trust that RLTWH has completely told the truth. There's been such a history of deceit that the entire foundation for trust has been eroded away by the series of lies.

Getting a polygraph would give RLT a foundation to start with.

I too would bet quite a bit that there's still more major lies that he's not admitted to yet.

I am so sorry to hear this latest development, RLT. That is sickening! Were his other affair(s) before this one, or since then? It's so sad that he was willing to go through the motions of "coming clean" with you, yet hold back. Did he tell you why in the world he handled it that way?

Please get some counseling from the Harleys. While the polygraph will show the truth, in the long run, your hubby needs to be the one telling the truth.

This has been going on so long that I really think you need to scrape up the $180. for some expert help.