I am just trying to understand your thinking better...

Are you saying that if someone says he has an addiction problem you think you can't or shouldn't leave?

I'm not saying that at all and it's certainly up to the victim to decide whether there's any chance at reconciliation of all the past harm.

I'm saying that if there is no effort made at removing the addiction, run in the other direction. Unless you are comfortable living with it. That's not how I would choose to live.

It's right in line with an affair. You can't begin to heal while the WS is elsewhere. Physically or mentally.

Addiction is a method of escape. An unhealthy way of dealing with or avoiding emotions. Call it the OP, drugs, booze, gambling...etc. They are all symptoms of the problem and may be replaced by something else in the future.

Many have several things they turn to at the same time. The objective being escape. Escaping prohibits intimacy, which protects the addiction and perpetuates the feelings of isolation. An ugly self-perpetuating cycle that only the addict can break.

I'm not saying he's an addict. It sure looks that way to me, but he is the only one that knows.

from my vantage point and from what I read he doesn't look like an addict...he looks like a liar and a cheat...BUT NOT an addict.

but MEDC, I haven't told you everything.

I appreciate what you are saying windstopped...I was actually directing that to RLT because she mentioned earlier "what if" and "didn't I marry in sickness and in health." (I don't know how to do quotes!). But your insight was good.

Considering the damage here, with SO MUCH repetition, with SO MANY chances to fix this I personally would find this irrelevant. He could be or he could smooth talk his way with an IC to say that he was...either way, would not matter to me. WAAAY too many years, way too many women and most importantly, WAAY to many lies. I would not tolerate my kids lying to me and I have even ended a friendship or two over my life over honesty. How can there be a relationship if you don't even know who they are or what is going on???

How many others have divorced, with good cause, because their spouse was an addict? It's OK to say enough! It's OK to leave to protect yourself and your children. In fact, I believe that it is the only RIGHT thing to do...difficult when you have had your head turned around for so long, but in my mind, it is the only responsblie thing to do.

RLT, if your fear is abandonment, what would happen if your children just abandonded the situation because it is just too overwhelming? Your oldest son is already doing just that. I could live with my FWH leaving me but I could NEVER live with the fall out from the kids. Ever. You mentioned that they are having problems. You are the only one that has the power to change this. He can't, at least not now.

They NEED a parent that is in control of themselves and the situation. I know divorce is very difficult (I divorced my first husband 20 some years ago and raised my older sons on my own) but I felt that raising them with a highly disfunctional parent was worse. His IC at the time told me that it was better to raise a child with at least one healthy parent than two very unhealthy parents. She went on to say that if I stayed in that situation I would become as disfuntional as he was. She was right! Was it hard? Yup! Whenever they would cry (they were 4 and 6 at the time) it would break my heart (and resolve) but I kept that statement in my head. It was one of the best pieces of advice I was ever given.

Try to stop putting the focus on him and put it on you and your children. In fact, that is exactly what they teach in alanon. There is little discussion about the alcoholic. The focus is ALWAYS about the co dependents behavior and responses.

((RLT)))

My .02 re: addiction vs [censored].

If he is an [censored] he can change his mind and might.

So you need to raise the bar high and open the door.


If he is an "addict" or "sick" then maybe he CAN'T control himself.

So you need to get away from a man who can't control himself.

See...the flexability SHOULD be diminished by a genuine psych problem...otherwise it is being used to give you both permission to not change and not make hard decisions.

RLT,

I don't feel very qualified to speak here to you, as I am still finding my own way. But I have been following your thread closely. I am sorry that you are dealing with the brokeness of a man who refuses to recognize it. I understand how you feel, and how much you want your marriage, but cannot bear the dishonesty.

I have reached a point where I decided to take control. I was too afraid for awhile. Too afraid I'd say the wrong thing, or do the wrong thing, and jeapardize any chance at our marriage recovering. Once I turned my marriage and my WS over to God, TRULY released him, I began to experience freedom. I reached a point where I no longer prayed for WS to return, or to see the light, or anything else. I just began praying that God would have his way with my family. I stopped asking for my will. I truly believe that God's desire is for all marriages to be reconciled. This was my biggest struggle. I had to admit that even so, WS may never surrender to God. As long as he refuses to surrender to God, he has no place in my life. He deserves nothing from me (well, there are a few things he deserves from me, but I won't go there).

I made a list of what was REQUIRED for me to ever possibly trust H, just in case he came out of the fog. Things like polygraph, post nup agreement, NC letter, apology to me, apology and confession to family, accountability partners that I choose, and more. I made the list so that I wouldn't be swept away with emotion if he wanted to come home. Once I had that down on paper, it became so much clearer to me. It's either this, or goodbye.

Now I am in the process of setting boundaries for his involvement in our lives: visitation, phone calls, med care, activities, etc. (And he does NOT like it)

Release him, RLT. Set your boundaries for his return. Set your boundaries for life without him. Then move on. He will either see the change, and go above and beyond to prove himself to you. Or he will fight the boundaries and really begin to show his WS attitude. I cannot tell you how much more peace I have now and it's only been a month. I have begun to laugh again, granted not with the same passion I use to possess. But I know I am headed in the right direction. It is freeing to stand up and say, "Here's what I require. Here's what I can live with. You must respect my boundaries, as I am in charge of my life."

Just release him. Proceed forward with your life. And know that God has the power to do what we desire, but may have something better for us because HE knows the heart of our WS's. Then live one day at a time, and see where God takes you.

Remeber...fear keeps us STUCK

windstopped,

thank you for your input. I am trying to understand addiction a little better, although I haven't invested too much time in it as of yet because I just plain ol' don't feel like having to jump into that one. I am exhausted. Emotionally exhausted. And now the thought of having to go to some COSA meeting, well I just have no desire at the moment.

sick, no, no I don't think that just because someone has an addiction, I can't leave them. Certainly not. But, as windstopped alludes to, if they don't get help--run in the other direction. MR. RLT went to his first counselor meeting yesterday. He's about done reading Out of the Shadows. He is coming to a lot of realizations about himself. He is talking, little by little.

I don't want to give details on his activities. Hey, I'm new at this and am not sure what I'm supposed to say, not say. Even to you all who are my cyber friends. Imagine how I feel with my kids and family members. Mr. RLT says that things come out in time, he's supposed to make some "announcement" about it at some point, apologize, make amends.

Anyway, I will say this. If there was any doubt that he is a SA in my mind, it is gone. I heard things last night that were too detailed, and things that also jived with my memories. I believe he did not make it up. I know some of you will think I'm stupid for believing one word that comes out of his mouth--maybe I am. But I did just sit, and listen. Trust me all, I kept my distance from him. No physical signs of affection. He is, and will remain in the spare room.

SMB, I'm in a controlled separation. I am setting boundaries, and I am turning him over to God.

I still think it's okay, guys, for me to decide NOT to decide right now.

your H is playing you.

I could today convince any doctor that I am a SA. I could look at the symptoms and go in and say I have this and that.
Frankly, your H is a con artist and not a very good one at that.

So, when's the polygraph? They can ask him if he is a sex addict! When is it scheduled?

medc, with regard to the SA--playing me to what end?

To gain my sympathies. If that's the reason, I can tell you right now that the stuff I heard yesterday would NOT, and DID NOT gain my sympathies. The stuff was embarrassing, at the least, for him to tell, and frankly stuff I would not admit to my own mother, if I had done them.

Well RLT...

I don't know what to tell you.

It has been discussed at length...people have pointed out the weak link..the vulnerability in allowing him access to your mind and providing him the ability to influence you.

You are making a choice to be vulnerable to his deceit by allowing him access to your mind and by "listening" to his words and taking them to heart when he hasn't earned that blind trust.

This IS your choice.

If you choose to be conned then you will have to live with the outcome of that choice.

This is you not protecting yourself willfully and deliberately and frankly even a bit defiantly.

You have gone around this mountain several times over a period of more than a year and it seems that when you come to the jumping off place you draw back and RUN for the cover of denial.

I can only conclude that you are unprepared to leave him or take even minimal precautions in protecting yourself from further gaslighting under ANY circumstances so at this point I consider you a volunteer to the consequences.

yes...to gain your sympathies...and that is what he has done. You have removed yourself from the "jump off" point and are now defending him....buying his bull crappp.

So, when is the polygraph scheduled...or has he talked his way out of that too. Abusers are experts at buying more time...so, when is the appointment?

I agree with Noodle that you have become an accomplice to your own demise. This is all very sad to watch.

You may not feel sympathetic about what he has DONE, but you DO feel sympathetic toward him. My poor WS; no one understands him; or why I am doing what I am doing. I understand. I have caught myself starting to do similar things before H left.

Once he convinced me that he wanted to "work on things", I started protecting him in little ways or giving him the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you don't see yourself doing this, but I think you are.

I am sorry to jump into this and sound so critical. But I think you are in a critical situation. When others have told you that as long as he is home with you, you cannot think clearly, I understand EXACTLY what they mean. It wasn't until my H left that my OWN fog started to clear. I am thinking so much more clearly. Things seem so much more simple and obvious.

What actions has your H done? His words, even his confessions, mean little at this point. What is he DOING? It looks to me like he has found another excuse to not take FULL responsibility for the horribly poor choices he has made with his life and with yours. An addict gets to say, it was because I am an addict. A spouse who is turning from his WS ways (whether he is an addict or not), says, it was because I was selfish, self-centered, self-absorbed, choosing sin over doing what is right.

Has he taken the polygraph? Has he SCHEDULED the polygraph? YOU should not have to do this if he is leaving his WS ways. Will he sign a post nup agreement? Has he confessed and apologized to his children and other extended family or is he still allowing the possibility for some to think, "Well, maybe she wasn't a good wife." I suggest you WRITE DOWN some very strict ACTIONS he needs to take, that have nothing to do with words. Confessions are just more words that cannot EVER be proven. His actions will prove his intent. Require some action that can be done with HIS MOUTH SHUT. Actions he can do without even living under the same roof.

My heart is aching for you. I know it is hard and your fear is very apparent in your postings. It is time to be strong, protect yourself and your children (even if they are out of the home).

filling out forms for polygraph as we "speak."

consent and credit card authorization forms. I have delayed this only because of the money.

I will be asking about the porn issues on the polygraph, if he is being truthful about them, or if this is a big fat Red Herring, as everyone here seems to think.

I'll let you know the results.

It doesn't MATTER if it is a "red herring" or if it is factually true that he is SA with all the bells and whistles.

The POINT is that it is being *used* as a manipulative tool.

WHO is filling out the forms? You? This is a simple action he can do.

SMB,

"A spouse who is turning from his WS ways (whether he is an addict or not), says, it was because I was selfish, self-centered, self-absorbed, choosing sin over doing what is right."

He has said this. He said it last night, but apparently I'm not supposed to believe it.

Yes, he has apologized to me, his children, and to my mother.

He has not yet had an opportunity to apologize to all of the extended family, as this has just come out recently. He says is going to. We'll see.

Actions so far--went to SA appt. Has another scheduled for Tuesday.

Was given into at appt. about accountability groups, will see if he follows through.

Confession last night was, as I said, specific, stuff that I can add 2 and 2 together because I was there throughout the years.

What's the point of the polygraph? I can't remember.

To see if he still had contact with the last OW, rlt? To see if he had been faithful since you renewed the vows?

And what does it mean if he passes?

What does it mean if he fails?

for all of the above, and porn activities.

I just want the truth, weaver.

I told him if he fails, I quit.