I suggest that we take the focus off of WSofRLT - she can do NOTHING about him.

As a spouse of a man recovering from SA, the shift of power in our relationship came when I no longer cared if I was married to him - it came when I removed myself from the dynamic of having to fix him.

The toughest place for anyone to move to in their lives is a place of powerlessness. Yet, in the 12 step program, it is the first step to surrender to that feeling and recognition.

The polygraph will not solve anything as far as the relationship goes; the benefit at this point is one more reality check for RLT that her husband has been deceitful for so long that he has removed every honest bone from his body. A polygraph will not suddenly make him honest - so let's get real here.

RLT is reeling from all the advice - back and forth we go, pulling her one way or the other. When what she really needs to do is be still and get to know God and through His eyes, get to know herself.

Addictive personalities tend to gravitate toward children of addicts - because that is how their addiction is enabled. I don't believe MrRLT chose to court RLT because he consciously knew that she had grown up a certain way, but after the first date, he surely was drawn to her because in some sense he felt she'd clean up after him.

RLT is not going to find her personal power to stand up to his gaslighting, mind-control overnight. Shouting at her to push him out of her life only serves to continue the illness SHE has to recover from - which is listening to everyone else's opinion and trying to please everybody else - an impossible act on this bb or any other bb.

RLT is going to find her personal strength the same way every other spouse of an addict finds it - first by recognizing that they are powerless over the addict and their life has become unmanageable. Second, by recognizing that it will take a power greater than themselves to restore them to sanity and to save them from the wreckage. Third - they make a decision to turn their lives over to that power (God).

This takes time - RLT has a lifetime of trying to patch things up. Her healing starts as she walks away from that compulsion - this first step is the hardest because it's a lifetime of programming -

I wince at the impatience I read here; it's so easy to armchair quarterback this - while RLT is fighting the battle that right now, she doesn't even have the tools to fight - and those tools have to be grown from within her; this takes time.

I remember someone here who was much worse at enabling - and spent two years in solitary pain because she couldn't even verbalize the nature of her husband's behavior was this evil and she certainly didn't open up to us so we could understand the nature of what she was fighting and help her work on HER. RLT is at least facing that - stepping into COSA meetings, finding the appropriate recovery for herself - that is much more than I saw other BS do.

RLT - be patient with yourself and your circumstances. Let your discussions become more focused on changing that lifetime of appeasement and excusing/forgiving unrepentant behavior. You are in the hearts of many and there are many prayers being sent up for you.

Kayla,

Thank you for posting.

I am torn with the advice here. No one believes me, but I am trying. I can't change overnight. But I can get up each day and do the best I know how.

What everyone doesn't seem to get here is that this is all so shocking.

Mr. RLT is opening up. Probably not everything but truthfully the conversations are exhausting and I NEED a break from them sometimes. This is 30 years, 30 years of stuff that needs to be brought to light, and that isn't going to happen in one night's conversation.

I get blasted for listening to him. But I'm just listening. I'm not holding his hand over it. I'm not coddling him. I'm not trying to fix him. I'm just listening to him about what he has done, what he plans to do to fix his OWN self.

In the meantime I sit back and watch.

It's all I can do.

KA... I think you words are wise..but the caveat here is that her children are suffering as a result of all this stuff. She doesn't have the time to go through a long learning process because of them.
Also, the polygraph has nothing to do with honesty moving forward...it is a barometer of historical honesty.

I think the energy that is coming through everyone's posts is the encouragement that you NOT hinge your future on sitting back and watching - waiting on HIM.

I know you're not holding his hand anymore. Congratulations on that. I know you're no longer "buying in" to his words and plans. But you are still listening - and this is work he needs to be doing with God and a sponsor.

I know that this work is hard. But it's not significant to your recovery that your WS is opening up. Personally, I don't let my husband use me as his confessional - it's not my job to help him recover from his SA.

I realize that you're not ready to step away from "being there" listening to him and his plans. He needs to take this burden off of you - that is, if he's truly going to recover. If he's going to let you recover.

Frankly, if you think it's scary what he's facing now - just wait until you get healthy and mentally tough. Think tough like Orchid, or Pepperband - Neak, Melody Lane, Bugsmom - the kind of tough that says, I don't need to be married THAT badly anymore. The kind of tough that says to your WS's mouthpieces, before they can speak more vile spew - "click". The kind that can do a Plan B for six months - use an intermediary to filter relevant issues like child visitation issues through to you, and let their WS really face the demons within themselves instead of projecting the way WSofRLT has done to you. - to keep you locked in that dark place you've lived for several years now.

You will find healing in your own heart beginning the moment you step back - and let him work with God and others who he hasn't beaten down and can't beat down from confronting him about the ways he still deceives himself. This is not the job for a betrayed spouse.

You will be able to measure that healing in how you feel about your day - that it won't revolve around what he's going to say or do next - but on getting things done - caring for your children... I'm looking forward to that day for you. I hope it's today.

I really liked what someone said yesterday - that you need to heal sufficiently that 6 months or a year from now - you can be in a healthy, drama free life.

It starts with the first step.

So kayla, are you saying I don't need to hear all the crap he has done?

I thought he was supposed to tell me.

Otherwise, what's the point of the poly?

I am just so confused, more confused every day when I crawl out of the bed.

Everybody tells me something different, and I'm growing weary.

MEDC - you're right - the problem is that her children ARE suffering - and they are part of an addiction dynamic that will color the rest of their lives.

But one doesn't cure oneself of the cancer of co-dependency in an instant - this is years of mental programming that RLT is fighting. I've been there - done that - from my father's addiction to alcohol and the first ten years of my marriage.

After ten years of marriage, during which I was being programmed to accommodate addiction behaviors, it took me three years to grow to the point where I could just say, I don't need to be married THAT badly anymore. It took another FIVE years to get to the point where I could live without certain previously essential emotional needs being met while I let my husband deal with the loss of his manhood to his addiction. And now I get to watch as he recovers his manhood one agonizing step at a time - The last anniversary present (23 yrs now) that he gave me was more part of his authentic self than I have seen in 21 years... It's nice to have him coming back.

I didn't switch to healthy over night. And I had a young son who watched his parents have terrible battles. Now, 11 years later after the major battles ended, he's a healthy well adjusted young man who has seen people overcome the worst in themselves. He has a reference point for mental health that few children have who can take their healthy homes for granted. He's learning mental toughness skills that in another home, there's be no need to develop. He will be a great leader - husband - father - because of what he has learned from our sick, dysfunctional early years.

RLT is in the process of creating a legacy for her children. They will see her as she becomes strong - or stays beaten down. But they are learning life lessons none-the-less.

I learned from my mother's non-recovery. She's been married over 60 years; my dad quit beating her up in 1977; the verbal abuse still persisted as long as he drank - until 1991. They still have their code words to hurt each other. And she still responds from a place of PTSD - and severe depression.

This does not make it easy for me to have a reference point for healthy relationships. But God gives me that - and this is the gift my parents did give me - was a doorway to that faith. They didn't walk through that doorway for themselves.

Trust the process.

I know it's tough - there are as many opinions on what you should do as there are people.

I do know one thing - addicts get a release when they confess - like the guilt is off their shoulders - especially to someone they have brutalized mentally to the point where they don't get confrontation about their p*ssy, selfish, evil behavior. My husband's sponsor nixed that really quick - and so did my sponsor. I'm not his mother - I'm not the one to correct his bad behavior - that's the work for the psychiatrist, therapist, minister and sponsor to do.

I get to work my own program.

You already know in your heart you're not going to get the full truth - a polygraph will only tell you there is continued deception - not WHAT IS the truth.

Isn't there a subliminal expectation your WS has that if he confesses these evil things to you, that now it is YOUR job to forgive him?

And the mountain of forgiving you are expected to offer, without accountability - without action is just getting bigger and bigger.

That's why you're hurting with each subsequent revelation. I know there are some clamoring here for a polygraph. You have to do what is best for you. I think you need some space from it all. Just to quietly grieve and accept that you have no power here over WS - and turn him over to someone else (God).

or, in other words...ignorance is bliss.

A polygraph will tell her if she is living with someone that is continuing to abuse her.... and if he is that should be enough to say ENOUGH.

without the threat of a polygraph, this creep would still be hiding every single one of his lies.

And in the meantime...kids suffer long term damage...long term relationship issues that will follow them their entire lives...and no one is suggesting an over night cure. This situation has been going on a long time....and one child has already left home...others remain and will suffer...for who, for what?

all the addiction talk in the world doesn't for one second change a parents NUMBER ONE responsibility. Protect your children. Everything else is just talk.

MEDC - not ignorance is bliss - she already knows enough to legitimately have reason to withdraw from concerns about the marriage and focus entirely on healing.

Her husband has to walk the walk - stop talking the talk. She already knows he's deceived her and continues to deceiver her.

A polygraph serves as another validation of what she already knows - he's a liar and continues to deceive her. It will not tell her the truth.

the polygraph will be done. Papers were filled out and faxed yesterday. It's paid for. I just need to finish my question list and call the guy.

Medc, yes, the kids have been through he77. But, believe it or not, I have a great relationship with each one of them. I have been a SAHM for 18 years. I homeschooled for a time.

My boys are intelligent, resiliant, amazing people. Like I said, we have a great relationship, better than most mothers and son, I would say.

Yes, DS18 did move out, but let's face it, he was going to move out soon, anyway. No I did not want it under these circumstance, but then, MEDC, I did not cause it. DS18 comes over everyday. We talk. He's doing well, considering.

As for DD13, we spend A LOT of time together. She loves being in the kitchen, and so do I. Sometimes, we just bake and cook up fancy dinners all day long. Last weekend I took her with me to Colorado Springs and we just hung out and had a great time.

I'm doing the best I can, MEDC. Please don't beat me up. I love my kids more than anything.

RLT..if it helps you to demonize peoples intentions here, then continue to do so. I am not beating you up at all. I am holding a mirror up to what is really happening. Others have done the same...and you make comments like you are getting slammed for listening...baloney. You are shifting the blame for your confusion here to the board and certain posters when WE are trying to help you...it is the "man" you are living with that is victimizing you and your children every day. Trust me...he is loving the change in focus...all con men do.
It is very disturbing that many parents, you included, whose children are living in a nightmare situation minimize the impact on the kids. Alcoholics and their enablers frequently do it...as do abusers and their victims. It is sad and very, very off the mark. But ehen again, the real damage done by these monsters may not rear its head for years.

Abuse victims the world over recognize the tune you are singing....so, I will merely ask...when will enough be enough?

medc, it is not my intention to demonize you.

When I read through the first several pages of this thread, everyone is saying that Mr. RLT needs to come through with telling the truth, full transparency, etc., etc.

So the man starts to talk, albiet under the threat of a polygraph. But he starts to talk, and then I get berated at for even listening. And he is accused of continued lying.

I dunno, Medc. It just seems like a lose-lose situation. I'm NOT defending him. I'm NOT saying that he is, indeed, telling the truth, or another lie, one way or the other. It just seems that nothing he says, and nothing I do, is right.

Do you see my confusion here?

I know that you and a few others here will not be satisfied until I absolutely kick him out and divorce him.

Medc, part of my fear is having come from a broken home myself. When my dad left my mom, he left us in squalor. My mom couldn't handle it. I love her, but she was just unavailable, and we kids were left swimming in a world of uncertainty for a lot of years. We lived in junk house after junk house while my dad lived in a beautiful home in Marco Island, FL with his new wife and two new sons.

Ah, I'm rambling now. Medc, you don't know everything about me. You don't know where I come from. You don't know how difficult this is for me.

You've no idea, really.

Noodle wrote this:

"It doesn't MATTER if it is a "red herring" or if it is factually true that he is SA with all the bells and whistles.
The POINT is that it is being *used* as a manipulative tool."

Mr. RLT did not come to me and say, "I'm an SA. Wha Wha, therefore you must forgive me because I can't help myself."

I didn't run into his arms and say, "It's okay, honey, I understand now. You have a sickness and I will stand by you in this."

I did NOTHING of the sort. I sat and listened to a litany of things he has done. I also heard him say several times that it is not my fault, and that he is not using it as an excuse. (sorry if that sounds like I'm defending him.) I'm just telling you, verbatim, what he said. Do I believe it? Not necessarily. I don't believe much of anything he says these days. I can't.

I'm NOT sleeping with the man. I barely talk to him. I have nothing to say at the moment. He's gone most of the time, at one job or another.

I'm just curious, what else would the naysayers have me do?

[color:"blue"]"A polygraph will tell her if she is living with someone that is continuing to abuse her"[/color]

Hasn't this already been established to your satisfaction, MEDC?

[color:"blue"]"and if he is that should be enough to say ENOUGH."[/color]

Isn't this YOUR expectation for RLT rather than helping her to arrive at her own decision? Shouldn't this be about HER boundaries rather than YOURS?

[color:"blue"]"without the threat of a polygraph, this creep would still be hiding every single one of his lies."[/color]

This is probably true, but now RLT AND her H are getting beat senseless over him telling her the truth and her not reacting by having him executed...Is there still MORE? I'd say there is and on this you and I agree. Will knowing that there is more do anything to help RLT? It might make her decide to move on and leave him in the dust. But where you and I differ is that YOU expect her to do it because he told the truth after lying for so long and I expect her to decide for herself based on the truth after she learns it.

RLT's H lied for a long time. Lying was a daily occurrence for years. To think that all that is required is to get to the bottom of all the lies and find out the truth is naive at best. But what matters most of all is what RLT is willing to accept, since years of lying will take years to reveal and she can't listen to confession from her husband for the rest of her life. It is, as KA has pointed out, transferring the weight of his lies to her. I see little else it is going to accomplish beyond that.

I agree with having the polygraph. Just don't base decisions entirely on whether or not there is even more that is not yet known, because that is pretty much a given. The things RLT canNOT live with need to be ruled out and the truth about what she CAN live with needs to be confirmed or debunked.

But RLT has to make HER decision and be supported to arrive at that decision rather than have OUR expectations enforced on her situation.



In addition, yes, her kids have been hurt by all of this. Simply divorcing him will not undo that condition, nor will additional screaming and shouting sessions in which even more hurtful baggage is transferred from him to her.

And, we are NOT talking about 3 year old children here. Discussion and sharing what is really going on is probably (note the qualifier here) more important than setting them an example of "If you get hurt by the one you love you should throw them out and seek revenge..."

And FWIW, I am not telling you that you cannot have an opinion that differs from mine, which is what you seem to be so good at, but merely that YOUR opinion is not the only one that counts here. The ONLY one that matters is RLT's. You have told her you would already be divorced from the bum. She got that. If she doesn't agree with doing that right now, it isn't your place to convince her by belittling her decision to not file for divorce as of yet.

I have a wedding to go to...Anybody remember the hope and excitement of those or have we all become skeptics and bitter people who seek only revenge while calling it justice

Mark

it would be one thing to listen to him if he was coming clean...he has lied about that over and over.

NOTHING he says is right or good enough. NOTHING short of complete honesty NOW...or a long time ago should be good enough...but you have been conditioned to accept his crumbs.

And NO, I don't know you...but I do know people that have been abused...I work with them every day. This stuff is not tough to sort through.

I frankly don't give a rats butt if you divorce him....if you were a no children family...hey, whatever floats your boat. But you are responsible for your children's well being...and right now, your H is a danger to their futures. And until you send him packing and make him earn his way back with actions, the kids will continue to suffer...that much I do know.

Look, you found someone on here that came across with something that would allow you to continue in the lie you have been living. Someone brought up SA...and wham...you pull away from action and choose the route that has caused you continued strife over the years. Okay...your call...no one can make you do anything...that is except your abuser who has pulled your strings forever. Read your posts again...look back a year ago...what do you see? When you started to get some strength...the same people you say are attacking you now were "exactly right" in your eyes. And then your "man" reels you back in.

Sad, very, very sad.

Mark...after your post earlier in this thread...which you were slammed on by quite a few posters, I am not interested in your opinion or posts.

I don't know if the four or five of you constitute a majority or not and really don't care.

You've made it clear, to me at least, that you are only interested in your own opinions and posts. You can't even graciously accept input from the one who should be in control of the thread.

And FWIW, my life doesn't revolve around what you think either. More to the point, neither does RLT's.

And after I was slammed for offering an opinion differing from the group think at the time, that now is being at least considered by others as possible, I did not respond out of respect for RLT and a desire to keep the thread from becoming a shouting match that ends up being locked by the mods.

If you feel the need to have the last word, have at it.

Mark

it wasn't your opinion that was called into question Mark....perhaps you need to go back and read that part of the thread again...unless it is your intent to maniplulate the facts.
Your opinion has value...as much as anyones...it is your questioning of the motives of others here trying to help RLT that got you slammed.

thank you, mark.

"NOTHING he says is right or good enough. NOTHING short of complete honesty NOW...or a long time ago should be good enough...but you have been conditioned to accept his crumbs."

See Medc? My point, exactly.

He's trying to come out with omplete honesty. Now. Sure, it would have been great to have had a long time ago, but it didn't happen that way.

But, see, he starts doing what everyone is telling him to do, and it's STILL wrong.

"Someone" didin't bring up SA. The facts revealed that one.

I'm curious, Medc, what would be your definition of an SA? What does someone do to be considered, in your eyes, an SA?

I'm not prepared to give you a list of what I heard. Not because I'm "protecting" him. I'm simply just not ready to go there yet.