Every so often on here we see people post that they are afraid to tell their spouse that they've been unfaithful because they fear that their spouse will become violent.

Often, comments are made that imply "they should have thought of that before" or "they must not be truly afraid or they would not have strayed."

I was wondering if anyone had any actual evidence that correlates fear of violence to reducing the occurrences of affairs in the fearful partner?

Dr. Harley seems to address this on his page about Honesty:


When ever I see those comments, my reaction is that it is tacitly advising that if a spouse terrifies their spouse enough with threats of violence then they will think twice about having an affair. Or, if a spouse isn't terrified enough of violence then s/he is more prone to having an affair.

Now, that may be true.

I just don't find it consistent with the MB principles of building a partnership marriage. Terror, terrorizing, threats of violence, etc. have no place in a healthy marriage. I'm less surprised to see people who are terrified of violence act out in destructive ways (ie. having affairs) than I am people who claim to have been content.

My questions are: Do you think it's possible to terrify someone out of having an affair?

Does anyone else read the comments about 'not being scared enough' and feel an implication that a spouse should be scared enough not to stray? (It might just be me...)

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Mys

I have never seen anyone suggest that one use "Terror, terrorizing, threats of violence, etc." to affair proof a marriage so you will have to direct that question to them. I must have missed that.


However, I have not seen any studies that indicate that domestic violence leads to affairs, have you? It sort of seems like the last thing one would do if they were truly afraid of their spouse.

But I don't think we need a study to have common sense. And common sense dictates that if one is so afraid of their spouse's "violent" temper, that they would be afraid of inciting said temper by having an affair.

Strangely though, in these cases, the wayward wife is only scared of the "violent husband" finding out, but not scared of committing adultery.

ALMOST ALWAYS we find out the real reason is because the wayward wife is LYING about the "violent husband" in order to recruit and scare others into protecting her secret.

So, I have serious doubts when I hear the "violent husband" story because it is a CLASSIC wayward wife concoction that we have been hearing for years on this forum.

We hear it very often, yet in all these years on this forum, there have only been TWO acts of violence: one was from an enraged OW who beat up a BS with baseball bat and the other was a BS [a medical professional who had no history of violence whatsoever] who punched the OM in the stomach.

History and experience dictate that the "violent husband" story is usually a lie.

Absolutely not.



Actually, I BELIEVE it may increase the occurence. Unless you've BEEN a battered spouse or KNOW a battered spouse, it's extremely unfortunate what happens emotionally. Many battered wives enter into an A, with the silent hope of escape...even if to only a place of fantasy...a temporary illusion to their lives. Abuse is not only physical, abuse is very much emotional and verbal.

I know women get trapped...they get stuck...for a plethora of reasons...none of which seem sane or logical to the "non-battered" person.

It's heartbreaking really.



That's the voice of bitterness..and resentment. I stand more on the side...unless I've walked a mile in someone's shoes...I'd never be so arrogant to pass judgement on any decision they may or may not have made.

Would a more direct question be "do I avoid doing something that will bring severe consequences to me?" I think that most people are wired liked that. For example, even a small child quickly learns that putting his hand on the stove will bring severe and painful consequences and learns to avoid that activity.

I think that women [some] are just as smart as a child in that they tend to avoid things that will bring severe consequences. And sure, sometimes we don't. But if I thought my H would MURDER me or beat me up, that is a consequence that is so severe I think I might be clever enough to avoid it. And I believe that applies to most women.

This subject is interesting to me in that it explores human nature.

An ingredient in affairs is the pain that the WS feels as a result of ENs not being met, and another being that LBs lead to a WS feeling less and less respectful of the (future) BS and of their vows, the WS then makes a selfish decision to betray the BS and those vows rather than work on the marriage or getting a divorce.

The affair is, in effect, then running from pain into a situation that is harmful to the WS, right? (Not to mention the WS and kids, but I am focusing on the WS specifically here.)

If that is part of the dynamic, then wouldn't the fear of violent reprisal be simply one factor to be considered? Is it conceivable that there would be a "tipping point," where the WS says, "to he!! with it, I am just doing it, the pain is too great."?

What comes to mind while writing this is the memory of hundreds of normal people who chose to leap to their deaths from the WTC towers rather than be burned to death. Faced with two situations that were painful, they chose to jump rather than stay.

I don't mean to imply that the levels of pain are equal, but rather to illustrate that perhaps even the threat of violence could be outweighed by other things?

I don't know the answers, but I like dicussing this stuff, it helps me to be more introspective.

Maybe it's just me, but I killed both of them in my head for at least a week, before the initial shock wore off.

I am a totally non violent person. (OK, I may have slapped H's face upon discovery, but that was reflex..I think) But it was only one smack before I collapsed in a mindless pile on the floor. I think anyone in an affair runs a huge risk of gettin' their clock cleaned, even from the meekest BS.

Hi Mys,


Simple answer IMHO "Yes". Complex answers ~ "Maybe" and "No".


Late in our marriage detachment, I saw reasons my H may need help with anger management. I say "maybe" because it depends on the personality of the spouse. For me, I never considered an A as a way to get out to avoid his anger. I did, however, consider his anger as a reason for me to just get out. With the exception of one time 9 years ago, his anger/dishonesty has never seemed to provoke him to show real potential for violence.

If I had a different personality and our relationship was based on fear, I might seek (or at least 'allow') the A Alien fog to descend upon me to justify being validated, cared for, needed, and to escape into the fantasy realm of peace and non-judgemental acceptance.

If I was really strong and confident, independent and self-assured, my answer would be "no". I would just demand that he get help, and if he continuously refused to where I always felt threatened, then I would get help myself to get out.

At first my H was in denial about the extent of his anger......still is at times. His angry outbursts happened often because he was in withdrawal ~ unbeknownst to me ~ but fortunately I now know more about anger (his and mine) and we have MC and MB and a deeper relationship with God to help us deal with it. Now, at least he does apologize as soon as he realizes it. I'm learning to curb my anger from triggers, too.

But that's just me and MHO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Good question....I'll be interested in other reasonings.

Ace

P.S. OTOH, fear of potential anger/violence from OWH towards my H delayed exposure to him.....even though they live on the other side of the country! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> And the opposite was the result....NOTHING.....at least so far. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Well, no it is not the "voice of bitterness" at all, BIJ. What it is a belief that most women are not that stupid. You think they are, I don't. Sure, some are. It is not "bitter" to have faith in my fellow females. I have a little more confidence in the intellectual abilities of my fellow females. Most are not so stupid that they would knowingly incite a violent man to MURDER just so they could pull their panties down with some stud.


Yet you arrogantly pass judgement on the people of this forum all the time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Brilliantly stated. Especially recognizing that IF you were a different personality type. That's the true celebration of diversity. Not everyone is built from the same mold, cut from the same log... and different personality types are neither a strength or weakness...they just ... ARE.

IMO..the answer is yes...a threat of violence could stop someone from having an affair....BUT...there is no concrete evidence that suggests that murders drop because of the death penalty...people will do what their nature and circumstances allow them to justify.

The more important point here is that anyone that is involved in an abusive relationship has bigger fish to fry...they really shouldn't be there in the first place. I wonder if some of the affairs by a TRULY battered spouse (not someone making things up to justify their behavior) are in fact one way they see to get out of their abusive relationship. If so... they are being quite stupid.

Men or women in an abusive relationship need to take responsibility for their own lives. Difficult....yes...abuse wears you down...but difficult or not...it is their life and they need to do it. Abusers...all abusers...men and women..need to get their assses handed to them...the way to stop a bully is not through reasoning, it is through a punch in the snout...as all abusers are really cowards at heart.


Sidenote...BIJ... you really can get annoying.

Agree 100% MEDC.

Here is what I keep coming back to. And that is the fact that almost every month we hear about some wayward wife or OW who claims her husband is "violent," yet it just never pans out when he is told the truth.

Rather, it turns out that this is a CLASSIC LIE of wayward wives. The violent husband story achieves two purposes, it discourages people from ratting her out and it serves to portray her as a "victim," which she believe justifies the affair.

So while I have no idea if violence leads to affairs or prevents them [I don't really care] what I do know is that of all the times I have seen the "violence" card played, none ever came true. Rather, the only "violence" of which I am aware came from an OW who beat up a BS for exposing her affair and a completely non-violent BS who punched an OM in the stomach.

So, that is why I am always dubious when I see the "violence" card being played. Waywards are liars and this is no different.

Replies to misc people...


I haven't seen that directly stated either. I do get that implication by reversing "If you were scared enough, you wouldn't have done it." statements.


No, I was asking if you'd seen anything like that. I have seen studies that showed that marriages with problems tended to have a greater tendency to have other problems. For example, marriages in which one partner is an alcoholic have a greater risk factor for other problems such as domestic violence. I don't have time to cite them now but you're more interested in 'common sense' anyway.


From what I know about the dynamics of abused spouses (I wasn't directing this only at wives, by the way) - often those relationships are started by people who grew up in environments which contained violence. That is well documented.

As another poster(s) noted, that might contribute to the abused spouse looking for a series of "rescuers" from their abuser and a high incident rate of highly destructive behavior and unstable relationships.


I understand your concern is false reporting and 'excuse making.' And, I'm sure that is the case some of the time. We can see from the news that it is not the case all of the time (though we usually don't get to know whether the murdered spouse was afraid beforehand in those cases).

We all know that spouses do snap and kill their WS and/or the OW/OM. We also see cases where the OW/OM snaps and kills the BW/BH. Obviously, these love triangles do cause very real violence in our society.

As someone else on this thread noted: "I think anyone in an affair runs a huge risk of gettin' their clock cleaned, even from the meekest BS."

As you noted on the other thread and I concur -- always better safe than sorry. Even if your BS is "meek/mild" you never know when such a discovery might incur violence.



People often choose things that bring upon severe consequences. If that weren't true, we wouldn't have so many people in jail for drug addictions, drunk driving, etc. Reality does not suggest that depending upon people to consider the severity of their actions prior to committing an act is a reliable strategy or as you like to put it "common sense."

"Common sense" isn't as common as it should be, eh?

In fact, in this day of burgeoning 'addictions' (to gambling, alcohol, drugs, internet gaming, affairs, etc) it becomes harder and harder to argue that people are very good at avoiding things which have bad consequences.


But "smart enough to avoid it" doesn't always mean you'll pick some non-destructive behavior such as divorce or seeking a shelter. It might include finding another man to 'rescue you.' People who live with spouses who they think will MURDER them are probably not making the healthiest choices in their lives as it is, wouldn't you agree?


Me too.

Mys

From what I have seen, there are many cases where BS' attack and/or kill the WS or OP.

Here's one of several I found with a quick search:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-03-22-teacher-sex-slaying_N.htm

What gets me is, more often than not, people are saying that they never would have believed that this non-violent person could do such a thing.

That in itself is enough to evoke a little bit of fear, but wouldn't having a spouse with a history of violence make it all the more real?

Mys...based on my experience..spousal abuse is a very real thing...BUT, women often lie about the circumstances of abuse..false reporting is HUGE. In many cases..I would say at least 1/2 of the jobs I went on...and that would be several per day for a number of years..the woman was the first one to strike her partner...then she would call the police. Go figure.
Couple that with the very nature of a WS and you can most likely see the difficulty here. A WS is a liar by nature...and abuse is already an accusation that has unfairly targeted many, many men. Personally, I don't believe ONE word that comes out of the mouth of a WS. Not a single one. Their character is called into question by their very nature and that leaves everything they say as suspect. I am sure that some WS have been abused... I am certain of it...but isn't it a little odd that they finally find the strength to discuss their abuse and do something about it only after they get caught with their pants down???

Tough situation all around.

*nudges Mel playfully*

Well, ya!

If the WS confessed and was murdered how would they come here and post about it?

Silly girl.

Mys

MEDC,

I agreed with your first post, by the way.

I understand the problem of false reporting. Really. I do.

I'm just not sure there's a correlation between being "scared enough" and not having an affair. Though I guess I can imagine a situation in which someone is so thoroughly scared they wouldn't be able to contemplate doing anything other than what they were told (think cult behavior...for example).


Not really. I suspect that people who live in abusive relationships tend towards having a lot of denial to allow them to cope with the constant assault on their realities. Being in a situation of "caught" might trigger the reaction to reach out for help. Also, as you mentioned above, I wouldn't expect those people to have better than average coping skills (as you said they have bigger fish to fry) -- abuse isn't necessarily always one way and I wasn't making it about abusive men. Women abuse, too. Women also kill and do all those other violent things. Didn't we just have an astronaut OW (nut job) go stalk the BW of her lover?

This is not a gender issue. It's a people issue.

Why did I start this thread? I guess because I sometimes got the implication from some of the messages warning about false reporting that "intimidating violence" was a realistic strategy to prevent affairs. I don't think it is.. and I don't think it's a good message.

I also realize that is just my interpretation of it - violent intimidation was never explicitly offered as advice. I just wondered if anyone else ever evaluated those messages that way. (I'm not implying they were intended to do that by the authors. I know ML would never advocate violent intimidation as a strategy. Nor am I asking that such language get 'stricken' from the board. I am just curious about other's experiences with reading the written word.)

Mys

I vote no; based upon the following:
A recent documentary about women in the Saudi, where Sharia law dictates death for women who have sex before or outside of marriage. And not just a nice, neat needle in the arm death. Public, violent, painful and prolonged execution.

These women go out at night along certain desert roads in cars driven by their chauffers. {Law prohibits them from driving themselves] Fully veiled except for their eyes, they look into the windows of cars where Saudi men are looking out at them. Both sexes want the same thing.

The women choose the partner they desire. But contact is made through their chauffers, all of whom know each other. The chauffers are the go-betweens. I forget the rest of the details; whether they meet up at the home of the man, or at a hotel, or some other place.

This arena is the only one in which women have complete power and control - that is, unless they are caught.

Most societys have severe penalties for women caught cheating. Yet it still happens.

Based on this, I don't believe fear is enough to stop people from cheating.

Then I would suggest addressing that person, because I have never seen such a thing implied here. Not in all the time I have been on Marriage Builders.

Marriages “with problems” is not the same as marriages with domestic violence. All marriages have problems. But yes, I am more interested in common sense, because one does not need a study to have common sense.


Actually it is the case the MAJORITY of the time on this forum. However, anyone could snap and become violent.




I think there is a huge difference between the choices made by a practicing alcoholic [who has lost his mind] and a supposedly TERRIFIED, but aware woman, making choices that can cause the end of her life and incite the fury of her tormentor, who LIVES with her. I would not lump her in the same group with drug addicts and alcoholics who are under the influence of powerful sedatives.



Oh, I don’t know, many of these scared women do not leave and seek shelter BECAUSE they are afraid to incite the wrath of their oppressor, so it only stands to reason that they would be afraid to incite his wrath over something much more grievous. Having been in a violent situation myself, the last thing I thought about was having an affair, but rather protecting myself from his wrath.

Totally true! You see this in shelters A LOT!

Usually allegations of abuse are lies. When they aren't, they aren't and they have a history. There is one thread over on recovery where allegations where in my mind totally bogus although some of the responders tried to make it so. Mel said it really well.

Larry

Maybe it was their GHOST who came back and posted!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />