This came up on another post so I thought I would start a new topic and see what everyone thinks.

The general consensus in the Marriage Builders forum is that there should be no contact whatsoever with the OM/OW after an affair. All communication must cease, no matter what.

Due to my own circumstances, I am of a slightly different opinion.

Please understand that I in NO WAY WHATSOEVER advocate continued contact with the other person in the affair. I agree with everything MB stands for in the pursuit of a fresh start to a marriage. If I had it my way, there would be no contact Period!!

Here is a brief outline of my story. Read on...

1. I was not meeting my wifes EN for a long time. We grew distant. She was vulnerable.
2. My W had a brief EA with a M who lives 100 miles away. She was not looking for anything, It just happened.
3. I found out and she admitted it. She was distraught.
4. We went to counseling and began the healing process.
At this point, would you say that my W should never contact the OM again? Of course you would.

OK, lets continue.
5. My W has a high-profile job. She is a public figure. She is under contract and cannot leave her place of employment.
6. I am employed at a company for many years and could not get a transfer to another city/state.
7. My children are at school and have many friends in the neighborhood. We own our own house.
8. The OM is also under contract and cannot leave his job and that it also REQUIRES an occasional brief conversation with my W. This is unavoidable.
Would you say that there still should be absolutely no contact? How can that be given the circumstances you have just read.

Lets go on...
9.Therapy has helped and my W has "found herself" and is no longer vulnerable.
10. Both my W and I have decided to work on our M. She has told me she does not want to see the OM again and has no interest in him.
11. The occasional emails between them are totally professional and do not infer anything other than business.
12. This A was in the past. It is a non-issue. It happened. It's over, lets move on.

Would you say that there still needs to be no contact given the points I made above about not being able to avoid contact. Remember, this is only an occasional email or phone conversation. There is no face-to-face or text messaging. There is nothing hidden here.

Would you say that this is ok given the circumstances? Remember, this happened a YEAR ago. People DO HEAL and move on emotionally. Feelings for the OP DO subside.

If this happened to you and you had no choice but to occasionally have email/phone contact with the OP, how would you handle the no-contact rule. How do you enforce the no contact rule when it is unenforcible due to what you have just read?

Thoughts......

Hey AB,

It is your life, your marriage, and your future. Who is to know what the future brings, but Harley KNOWS that contact, any contact is a breeding ground for renewal of an affair.

Life is not perfect and clearly the situation is complicated, the real call is yours. Are you willing to risk it? If so, then do so. We offer opinions, advice, experience, but YOU and your W have to live your life.

You know the best case and you know the risks.

God Bless,

JL

AB, let me first explain that this is more than a general consensus. It is the advice of Dr. Willard Harley. He is a licensed psychologist who specializes in infidelity and has 35 years experience. But that is not the main reason it is the concensus around here; that stems from the fact that we have witnessed the on-again, off-again affairs that result from cutting this corner. Recovery is impossible unless contact ends.

His advice is correct and there is no basis on which to contradict his advice.

When the affairees do not end contact, recovery is impossible because they never sober up from the affair and never fall in love with the spouse again. Thier feelings for the affair partner are perpetually rekindled so every contact puts them back to Day 1 of recovery. The thrill of the affair and the appeal is always front of mind with them, so the marriage never becomes attractive again. The marriage is ALWAYS compared to the thrill of the fantasy affair and always falls short.


Of course there should be no contact. None of these are reasons they have to be in contact. You wouldn’t even have to move if you live 100 miles away. But your W could end all contact at work and avoid him in all social situations. People on this forum do it every day. We have had DOCTORS who left their jobs to avoid the affair partner. Contracts can be ended or another employee at work could handle any dealings with him. If that won’t work, she can leave her job. I really don’t know why you think you are different. You aren’t.

We don't only do this if it is convenient. It is RARELY convenient. That is because the usual result of ignoring this advice is very inconvenient: resumed affair.


Then you need to find a qualified “therapist” who understands infidelity. Your wife is vulnerable as long as she continues contact with the OM. I think its really cute and winsome that she has “found herself,” but that doesn’t help her find RECOVERY in her marriage. If you want RECOVERY, contact must end.


I am sure she did tell you this; ALL WAYWARDS say the same thing. Alcoholics don’t want to drink again either. But is it smart for them to go in the bar every day and have “business drinks?” Would you even imagine an alcoholic could sober up that way? Much less recover?

However, if the first step has never been taken – no contact – there is nothing to work on. The first step has to be abstinence. No abstinence, no recovery. Continued contact, no recovery.


Actually, you do have choices. Your wife is not an endentured servant and is no different from anyone else here. No contact is enforcible in your case. Those feelings are rekindled every time your W contacts the OM. She will forever compare your marriage to the thrill of the affair and is unlikely to fall in love with you again under those conditions. But that is the option you are willing to take and that is your right and your choice.

Does the OM's W know about the affair?

You are playing with fire by allowing contact.

Your wife already knows that there is someone out there who wants to be with her if things get rocky in your relationship again. I'm sure at some subconscious level her contact with OM will be an attempt to continue to keep him as an available option. I don't like giving spouses "options." You'll always have to look over your shoulder and make sure you are meeting your WW's ENs. I wouldn't want to live your life as a slave to your WW's needs, and even that is not guarantee. If she "found" herself, she can always, "unfind" herself if she is unhappy. Good luck.

AB, how familiar are you with Marriage Builders? Have you read Surviving an Affair or Fall in Love, Stay in Love? I went back and read some of your posts and think those 2 books might be helpful in your situation.

I would also strongly suggest that you find a qualified married COACH who understands infidelity. Most therapists do not understand infidelity and are unqualified. Marriage counselors have a dismal rate of success and usually cause more problems than they can solve.[16% success rate] Their divorce rate is actually higher than the gen pop.

Steve Harley of Marriage Builders does an outstanding job and is worth every penny. He can guide you back to a loving, fulfilled marriage and teach you and your wife how to affair proof your marriage.

My opinion is based on the premise that there is truly no way to avoid any contact. Not saying this is so, but I think this is what you are asking.

So, based on your premise, as others have stated, contact is a huge risk. If contact is truly unavoidable, I recommend you and your wife enthusiastically agree on a risk management plan regarding unavoidable contacts. I am sure that others here can suggest some ways to mitigate the risk, but here are a few thoughts of mine:

1. Communication - find a way to make sure you know about each and every contact in detail. Discuss each one, her feelings during the meeting, etc. Get her to auto-forward any email correspondence to you as a courtesy copy, etc.

2. Discuss the circumstances of each contact and work to find ways for her to avoid those circumstances through delegation, etc.

I don't have all the answers of course, but I do know that there are no absolutes and can imagine there are circumstances where contact could be truly unavoidable.

JMHO, but I do support the MB principals, only trying to answer the question as it was asked.

Good luck to you!

This man's wife is still working with the OM. THAT CAN BE AVOIDED because it is well within their control. Giving credence to his destructive, ill-informed premise is not helping him save his marriage, Ahnold. It might make him feel good to tell him what he wants to hear, but it does nothing to help him.

There is no "CAN'T" be avoided here, there is only "WON'T" be avoided. There is a huge difference. And that is because AB does not understand the dynamics of infidelity and doesn't comprehend that he can't recover as long as contact continues. He is under the illusion that he can get away with this. [even though his marriage has, in fact, not recovered - just as I suspected, it is in trouble]

Just because an occasional random chance meeting cannot be avoided is not a cue to ignore Harley's ADAMANT WARNING against contact.

Instead of looking for rationalizations for continued contact, how about we help this man find ways to avoid it so he can save his marriage? "Communicating" about contact will not erase the damage done and helps nothing.

The bottom line remains: recovery is impossible until all contact ends. We can debate about whether or not contact is avoidable or unavoidable, but that fact will not change. To believe otherwise is to imagine that an alcoholic can "recover" while still drinking. Won't happen, folks.

Dr. Harley:

I guess you need to say that you and your wife both value her social standing and career more than your marriage.

That is your call. I don't see NC as impossible, ever. In your situation, like many others here, it is inconvenient, but NEVER impossible.

Who

Wise council, Ahnold ...

Proven "Black & White" principles are great guidelines, but common sense dictates there will be necessary real world exceptions.

I am a big proponent of NO CONTACT, but in your case, you will have to find alternative boundaries while your WW is still under contract. No doubt it will be much harder on you, and you will have to actively monitor and discuss the contact as Ahnold suggests, but I believe if you are both committed, and you stay on your toes throughout the remainder of the contract, you can successfully recover in spite of not maintaining strict NO CONTACT.

I would probably have a face to face with the OM also to make sure he understands that you will be watching, and that you are prepared to blow up his world if he crosses the line.

I know I have made some serious mistakes in my life, have LEARNED from them, and have not been tempted to repeat them because of those previously learned lessons from the "school of hard knocks".

I wish you STRENGTH, because you will likely need it as it will be trying at times, but with the proper precautions and attitudes from all involved, I think you can make it through this trial.

[color:"blue"]"9.Therapy has helped and my W has "found herself" and is no longer vulnerable."[/color]

She IS still vulnerable and not simply because of continued contact with OM. The fact is, we are all vulnerable. It isn't becoming invulnerable but recognizing and protecting our vulnerability that is the secret.

While we can know under current circumstances that we would not have an affair, we cannot know what will happen to our ability to make the right choices if circumstances change in some unforeseen way. This is why we must have a way to protect ourselves and our marriage from infidelity rather than just a desire to not have an affair.

It is recognizing that we have a weakness that allows us to protect that weakness from being exposed. This is how a winning sports team becomes a champion, by protecting their own weakness while exploiting the weakness of their opponents. It is how a boxer approaches a fight. It is how we must approach protecting our marriage from the possibility of an affair.

Just getting individually stronger is not the solution. Making the team stronger is the only part of the solution. Knowing what to do when tempted is a small piece, but learning to avoid situations that can expose our weakness is the best way to overcome our vulnerability.

Can an alcoholic successfully recover from his addiction if he operates a still or works as a bartender? Maybe, but it makes that possibility much more remote than if he never goes near booze ever again.

And this doesn't just apply to OM, but to protecting herself from being in a situation where she has to rely on her strength to make the right choice.

And it applies to you and all the rest of us as well.

Just my $.02...

Mark

I sure opened up a can of worms here. I meant to and knew exactly what the responses would be. I can almost see the fire in Melodylane's voice as she so eloquently explains that no contact is a MUST as she probably has 24377 times before in this forum.

Boy, I wish it was so easy. My M still is rocky due to ongoing EN issues. I am addressing them and gaining much insight from what I read/post in MB.

My objective was to gauge what posters would do in my situation given the complexity of the situation.

No, I have not read Surviving an Affair or Fall in Love, Stay in Love. I will make time tomorrow as tonight will be a late night at work.

I really appreciate the feedback from those who's only mission, it seems, is to put people like me on the right track.

I will revisit this issue with my W and discuss the options we have available. The thing is, for no contact to occur, it must come from both spouses. My W appears to see no problem with it because, in her mind, it's a non-issue. It was a brief A, mostly on the phone and email. Nothing really developed because of her sudden change in demeanor towards me. I suspected something and went looking.

I'll post more as time permits but I am late for work at this time.

AB

OK...here's some more for you to think on.

You say that:

THEN you say:

Surely you've got to see how mutually exclusive these two statements are?!?!?

Here's the deal. Its entirely possible that your wife really DOES feel that she's "not vulnerable" anymore. That she no longer wants anything to do with OM. That could indeed be how she feels...right now. But what happens when things get worse? The OPPORTUNITY to resume the affair, the chance for OM to resume meeting her emotional needs (that you say is currently an issue in your marriage, btw...) still exists.

And the thing is...DR Harley has seen over and over that this often does lead back into a resumed affair. In effect, it never really ended. It was just put on hold. The 'resumed' affair will blossom far more quickly and dangerously than the first one did...because they've already got that history.

WE have all seen this many many times here on this forum. ML has seen it tons of times, I'm sure. You can make references to her number of posts, but that just shows you how much she's seen around here.

Really, the choice IS up to you and your wife here.

You say that its IMPOSSIBLE for her to change jobs.

That's entirely untrue. She could quit today, and go flip burgers in McD's if she liked.

The REAL issue is that you're not willing to change your lifestyle, you're not willing to deal with what changing her job would require. That DOES mean it would be some difficulties. The bottom line is, do you want to accept the risk to your marriage that WILL continue as long as she works there, in order to avoid dealing with the problems that changing her job would entail?

This isn't rocket science...I used to do rocket science for a living, and this isn't it.

Choices ARE black and white. You do it, or you don't.

Yoda had it right..."Do, or do not. There is NO try!"

AB,


Well, that is no surprise. But, the question I have is how do you really feel about your wife having continued contact with the OM?

You are the BH here and if you are in any way uncomfortable with this continued contact, then your feelings should be of paramount importance to your wife.

Gage your chances of true recovery on this.

Who

Take it from a BS who was in the same situation. Every time my H had contact with the OW at work I HATED it. I imagined every bad thing possible. He too believed it was not a big deal it is in the past however it bothered me enough that he finally turned in his resignation at work. The OW still contacted him but he told me about it. It makes it so hard to get past the A when the OP is still in the picture. Do not let there be ANY CONTACT!!!

ML, You seem to have interpreted my message incorrectly. I answered the question as asked, what would *I* do in a situation where it was unavoidable.

As for your opinion on how I should answer a question to another poster, I will keep my own counsel. If you reread my post, you will see that I don't disagree with the principal and don't necessarily agree with the premise.

MR, thanks for taking the time to read and understand what I said.

Can you guess WHY? Can you guess why Dr Harley, who has counseled thousands of clients over 35 years is "adamant' about no contact? It is because we know what happens. We know that recovery is impossible unless contact ends. We also know that you have the potential for a good marriage within your grasp, but are giving that up because achieving no contact "is hard."


No, your marriage is rocky is because the affairee is still drunk on the affair. You will never be able to meet her needs unless she withdraws.


We would end contact. Dr. Harley would tell you to not settle for less, because recovery is impossible.


Good deal.


Honestly, I do care very much. I know that you have a chance at a great marriage if you will do some things differently. There are no guarantees, but there are opportunities here to improve your situation and I mean that sincerely.

Well said ... anyone seeking advice, whether in person or annonymously online needs to be able to sift that advice through their own particular circumstances for their own particular purpose.

However, there will be some advisors that are so invested in a particular phylosophy that they refuse to consider individual circumstances and personalities, and just spout cookie cutter advice without concern for the individual dynamics. These people are basically "zealots" and incapable of looking outside of their narrow views. Their advice is usually good in most circumstances, but when faced with real world "curveballs", they tend to use the "bigger hammer" approach rather than adapting to the individual circumstance that is in a different shape than the "cookie cutter" they are holding. Personally, I tend to discount the advice of these people.

Like I said, I am a huge proponent of NO CONTACT and insist on it in my situation without compromise. However, there are other dynamics in my situation where other MB principles must be modified for our particular set of circumstances.

Obviously, there are those who view the world in strictly Black and White, whereas the world is nearly all varying shades of grey when viewed through my eyes.

your situation is not all that complex. It is a couple that refuses to put their M first. Nothing strange or complex about that. I don't give a rats behind how self important you or your wife think you are in regards to your employment. YOU have a better ability to change jobs that a person working a blue collar job. Enough already...NC means NC...

As you can plainly see, achieving no contact is most certainly NOT unavoidable in his case. It has never even been attempted. He is looking for an easier, softer way that will avail him nothing but heartache and ruin and it makes me ill to see other posters here helping him in that mis-guided mission. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Myrevelation, is Dr. Harley "spouting a particular philosophy" out of a sense of "zealotry without concern for individual dynamics" when he says:


Or do you think he is "ADAMANT" about it because he is a licensed psychologist with 35 years of experience of saving marriages from affairs? Could it be he might know a little more about adultery than you do?

There is a good reason he is "ADAMANT" about it, MyRevelation. I have been here for 6 years and seen what happens when someone ignores this warning.

I realize you are brand new here - 6 weeks - and have no experience, but the no contact rule has nothing to do with zealotry. It is a simple matter of acceptance of the facts. A person who comes here can pick and choose which principles he wants, however, a person cannot pick and choose reality and expect to recover his marriage. Believing that a marriage can recover while the affairees are still in contact is like imagining an alcholic can sober up taking "business drinks."

That is all I want him to understand. He can take that advice or leave it. But he must understand that there will no recovery unless he does take that advice. He is already experiencing this now as his marriage continues to crumble.