You mean this is how YOU see things. And I applaud your honesty in admitting your inability to see things clearly. I will take this into account when considering your posts.

At the end of the day, all we can do is advise him on why what he's doing is very likely to result in a failed marriage.

He asked the question, he got his answers.

Its his marriage, his life.

I know that in my case...WITHOUT ANY KNOWLEDGE OF MB AT THE TIME...insisted to my wife that there was no way I was willing to allow/accept ANY kind of friendship or relationship with OM as part of our marriage.

As with all WSs, she fought it at first. "We can just be friends"..."I'm not going to give up that friendship just because YOU are worried that it might go too far again"...etc...

But deep down, I knew the truth(s) in the matter. First, she wanted her "fix" of him in any measure she could keep. Since she couldn't have him as her boyfriend/whatever, she was wanting to negotiate to have him stay in her life in some fashion. Second...I knew that ALLOWING this would have continued to put our marriage in jeopardy. In a couple of ways. It always kept that 'chance' open for them to resume the affair. AND...it would have created a huge amount of added strain because I COULDN'T have ever truly trusted that friendship...I would have been angry and resentful and doubtful and mistrusting of anything to do with OM in her life.

There was no way I was willing to risk going through the sheer devestating pain of another d-day. I insisted that I was NOT going to accept that in my life again.

AB- Perhaps you ARE comfortable and "willing to risk it". If so, good luck. From our experience (and far greater than that, from the experience of a LOT of professionals), your odds are very low...but perhaps you'll be the lucky one.

Good luck.

Exactly.

ML, for the sake of discussion, can you imagine a circumstance where no contact is truly unavoidable? And if so, how would you personally handle that situation?


I'm still not sure why you interpret my intent in any way other than what I clearly stated. As for his motive in asking the question, I didn't try to interpret it, I took the question at face value.

I have some other thoughts on the subject of NC, but I don't want to TJ. Maybe a different thread someday.

ML ... I don't need to be "PREACHED" to by you ... I'm here for the same reasons as you. We are obviously two completely different personalities, but you seem to have a problem accepting that, as you seem to view everything in absolutes with no room for differences.

Personally, I wonder why anyone would still be here in this depressing place for 6+ years. I need this place at the moment to learn and heal, but I HATE it here, and understand that once we can get past this awful time in our lives, I'll gladly walk away from MB with the knowledge I've gained here, but without missing the misery and drama one bit.

Good day to you.

What would be the point of such an exercise?

I would rather not divert attention imagining hypotheticals when we have a real live situation at hand where contact is achievable. I don't see the point of such a distraction and don't see how that helps AB. Instead of imagining reasons NOT to acheive no contact, wouldn't it be better to discuss reasons TO achieve no contact?

My REV...YOU sound as though you are a miserable person. Nice to know that you will get what you need here and slam other people that choose to help others as a pay back for the help they received here.

None of this answers my post, though, or has any relevance to the subject. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


To help other people. Others were here to help me when I arrived.

Sheesh, MR, you must not read here all that much...Have you no clue how much help MelodyLane offers here on a daily basis??? It astonishes me...I'm sure she continues to learn as well, but she is here being OF SERVICE to others...A very unselfish endeavor...It certainly isn't required for her or anyone to stick around here, but she does...I for one am very thankful to those that do, because Mr. W and I owe our marital recovery to this place...Imagine what would happen if all those that were successful at applying these principles just left...The place wouldn't function too well, would it?

Anyway, FWIW, you are DEAD WRONG about NC being a gray area...It is most certainly black and white...No question about it...My own affair proves this principle quite well in fact...My affair was with an exbf...Dr. Harley explains that if there was EVER a relationship, that a low burning flame will remain FOREVER and can be reignited at any time...THAT is why NC is really imperative, not only with affair partners, but ANYONE that you have ever been involved with...Those situations are just combustible...So I can personally attest to Dr. Harley being 100% right...I wish that I had known about Dr. Harley and MB LONG ago, it sure could have saved our family a lot of heartbreak...

MR, I know that you think that you are helping by being so "open-minded" and "accepting" of AB's posted situation...Making him feel that you are befriending him by "understanding" his plight...But you are NOT being a good friend at all by not telling him the TRUTH and that is that ANY contact at all with OM is poisonous to his marriage, because it is...As a FWW, I am begging you both to see this...If AB wants his marriage he will have to follow Dr. Harley's VERY NARROW PATH to recovery...Simple as that...

Something else that Dr. Harley is adamant about at his MB Seminars is that your career is to serve your marriage and family, not the other way around...AB, your wife's career is NOT serving her marriage and family as long as she has contact with OM there...I pray that you will listen...

Mrs. W

This post is for AB not the rest of you to battle back and forth about what you believe. It is up to AB to decide whether he can live with the contact. I know i certainly could not because i felt i deserved more respect than that.

Stillcrazy, it is unfortunate that the principle of no contact has to even be defended on Dr. Harley's own website. But when newcomers come here and dismiss such critical elements of recovery, then it must be defended, lest others believe them.

AB,

To my simple mind, the operative words are: "I didn't plan to have an affair it just happened." "I/we didn't want anyone to get hurt."

Look at those words and realize how stupid and yet ACCURATE they are and you will understand why Harley is really BIG on no contact.

AB, very few people set out to have an affair or hurt their spouse. Yet it happens all of the time. I won't even get into the "we are soulmates" stuff. Just the fact that typical well mannered, moral, nice, loving people often do visit the worst pain imaginable on their spouses WITHOUT A PLAN, suggests strongly where the issues lie.

Your marriage is not strong. Your W is understress with her new job. She is in a high visibility job that requires long hours away from you and the family. She has already shown a vulnerability. Do you see what you are being warned about?

Of course it is possible OM IS a thing of the past and your W will never travel that road again, but...

Work on your marriage, work on the communications, and really work on the concept that your W and OM should NOT be in contact.

God Bless,

JL

PS: AS you discuss these things with your W ask her this. IF you had an affair with your secretary (assuming you had/have one) would she be happy that the secretary still worked for you after you assured her that the affair was over?

That's a fair question. My reasoning is that first off, that is the question he asked. Secondly, it's a "forest for the trees" kind of thing. Which choice is a greater risk to the marriage? I am merely asking because I think it's a worthy discussion.

I think probably the best advice I can give to you (the original poster) is for you and your wife to discuss the situation with Dr. Harley and then enthusiastically agree to follow the course of action that is most likely to result in a terrific marriage.

Well that's cool StillCrazy, but be sure to remind AB that if he decides to "live with the contact" that he should get ready to live without his marriage, because that IS what will happen...GUARANTEED...

Mrs. W

I am not saying he should or shouldn't I belive that there should be NC. I could not stand it when my FWH still worked with the OW. I believe where there is a will there is a way for NC.I am saying that we should not be bickering amongst ourselves and give our opinions to AB for him to decide.

I think a worthy discussion would be about ways to acheive no contact. I know what his question was, but I reject his premise. I won't try and give him ways to harm his marriage, and that is the premise of his question. That doesn't help him a bit.


You do know that no contact is not negotiable? The reason is because there will be recovery without it. POJA, ie: "enthusiastic agreement", is a tactic for the RECOVERY PHASE. So, if he is not even in recovery there is no point.

Further, Dr. Harley does not advocate enthusiastically agreeing to anything that is harmful or detrimental to the marriage. Contact with an affair partner would fall into that category. POJA is not intended to be used to demolish the other principles, in other words.

But he is not here for "our opinions." He is here to learn about MARRIAGE BUILDERS and what will WORK to save his marriage. When those principles are challenged, they will be defended. Count on it.

Well i am new here and have found a lot of good stuff on this web site but i still believe we should just offer our opinion. I am here to see what others have done in their situations and to get advice. My FWH has not talked about the A and will not let me talk about the A so i just read to get insite to better deal with my emotions.

SC, you are perfectly free to offer your opinion about anything. And so are others.

SC..If your WH has not talked about the affair and given you information...and he doesn't let you talk about it...he is NOT a FORMER anything.