Wow, thanks LA.

I have been doing a lot of personal recovery. I have been looking at what I see as needs in my M, and I DO HAVE THEM, and I recognize that INTIMACY is quite important to me (affection, conversation--those sorts of things). So far, this work has just begun.

YES, I am frustrated, partly due to my expectations.

I will have to read, many times over, your above post, as it is full of so much, and I think it is all important to 'get'. Thank you for taking your time to explain. It means a great deal to me, as I'm sure it does to others reading along.

Right now, I'm in a place that I feel like MB's vets are my coach, all trying to light a fire under me when I feel like I have nothing left.

SL,

I know you've been working hard on your personal recovery and discovery. I've seen your dedication in posting and to me, that is an act of care for yourself and your half of your marriage.

And I hear you realize you're at a beginning...which is great to know. Says to me you can KNOW this and still FEEL like you have nothing left.

Reality cannot be both, can it? You can have the experience of having nothing left and still have a lot. We all have that ability. Feelings are NOT beliefs...if you can see you're at a beginning, believe it. Your choice. You will not then have the resulting feeling of empty, out of gas, all done and nothing left.

I promise.

See if there isn't a lurking idea/thought you have recurring like "It shouldn't be this way" or "This isn't being loved" or even, "Everything's been ruine, taken away; gone."

Amazing how much of our experience comes from these thoughts in our heads...which may beliefs we had...from way before we even knew our partners..."If my H ever did that, I'd feel this!" and then we experience such a thing...with a lot of pre-thoughts, like promises, affecting how we really are feeling right now. Layers of them.

Unravelling those...to really see where your expectations begin and end, what they are, and if these pre-thoughts play a part in them...heck, that's a real beginning, isn't it?

To know...not to act on, judge, rebuke or punish yourself for any of them...know to own...that's it.

You are whole, complete, marvelously made human being...equal to everyone on this planet, SL. You really are. Frustration is a signal...to trace and know...not to try to get yourself to not feel. Once you get a signal, it drops...often, sharing what you're feeling drops the signal totally...was a signal to share.

Intimacy is knowing your own stuff and sharing it. Experiencing intimacy begins with you...your choices. That's marvelous, isn't it? What a design! And here I thought I had to get my DH to BE intimate with me...didn't see where I wasn't living up to that goal myself.

How 'bout that?

Took me hearing the MC say, "Consider the idea that what you crave most, you are least giving." That was a big lightbulb moment...after I got defensive, of course.

LOL

LA

LA, I wrote a novel and this dang thing timed out on me! UGHHHHHHHHH

Hey SL, I need to re-read your threads. I'm sorry you find yourself in my camp, but please continue to post.

LA, I'm still re-reading, digesting and disecting your 1st post.

Why does he do nothing? Why I do to much? Started out innocently. He worked long hours so in 'helping' I took care of the "stuff" (house, bills,kids,decisions,etc.) I think he 1st was grateful, then took it for granted, then resented it, now feels unimportant.Even when I was asking,begging,pleading for help I think he was to detached and resentful by then. In my defense, he does have a streak of if someone else will do it, why should I attitude. Been that way since before I had any influence on him. But I will take my share of the blame for his resentment and not feeling important.

Why doesn't he take responsibility? Why do I take too much responsibility? He doesn't get blamed for anything that goes wrong. I will have to pick up the pieces when it does so I try to make sure it doesn't go wrong. Ok, that's from my childhood that I've brought into my adult life - I plead stupidity. I resent his lack of involvement/committment.

We had a HUGE blowout Thursday night. As far as I was concerned it was over. He wasn't putting forth enough effort and I was bending over backwards. hmmmmmm maybe back to the whole responsibilty thing there? It was the 1st time I told him I HATED what he had done and I HATED him for doing it. HE opened pandora's box and I felt it was his responsibility to pick up the pieces if he wanted our M to work.

He made a comment that hurt me to the core of my being...

A little history 1st. This whole situation on top of the last 3 yrs. of a terrible amount of stress for both of us, oldest daugher's divorce, oldest daughter's downward spiral into drinking, both had pregnancies, unwed, both moving home at the same time, both had babies within 4 months of each other-living here, his health, my health, youngest went thru domestic assault while AGAIN pregnant with twins,both moved out-last one this June, youngest now getting married so dealing with upcoming wedding in a couple of weeks,finding out EA has been going on during spring/summer,and life, I'm about at a breakdown point. I'm not handling anything well. I don't think he is either we just show it in different ways. He holds in, I let out.

Ok back to his comment. I had asked him several weeks ago if he would talk to girls to get them to be less demanding and more understanding of my stress. Not to necessarily tell them what HE had done, but we had issues and really needed understanding and less demands. Never happened. Resentment building with me. I'm falling apart and he's doing NOTHING AGAIN. So I ask him, what were you going to tell them? He says he hadn't thought about it. UGHHHHHH, my response well there ya go again NOT THINKING. That's what he told me about the EA, he never thought about ME. I asked him WHY aren't you thinking?????? *big gulp here* He says "because you do my thinking for me". I'm speechless. I'm pissed. Then I read your post. WHAT HAVE I DONE? I'm so ashamed. On reflection am I totally responsible for this?

Yesterday when I came home from work, we briefly chatted casually..very unusal after fight. Normal he becomes withdrawn. He walked up to me, kissed me and hugged me so tight. I was so relieved but knew we had to talk calmly, clear the air. I held him tight and asked him, can we talk. He was reluctant, I think expecting a bashing but he agreed.

I asked him why he procrastinated on MB? If he doesn't want to do that, ok just say so. I told him I needed him to be honest and speak up. I might get upset, I might cry, BUT I can deal with that rather than my mind thinking he doesn't care and doesn't want to change anything within our M.

He feels that when things are going at least half way good, IF he starts reading and doing the questionnaires that I will slide backwards into "throwing the EA in his face again", and we'll loose the forward progress.

I told him no that was backwards for me. When he DOESN'T participate that's when the EA stays in my mind, their messages playing over and over again in my head. That's when I become anxious as to he doesn't care nor love me.

I also told him, I think, we probably will have step backwards BUT as long as we keep trying and don't leave each other emotionally/physically we can do this.

He said he felt he'd already lost me. I said I'm still here but I can't continue with this cycle we're in. For me, our old M is gone. We CAN work for a better improved M though.

I hope he will now feel more important to me. I'm going to work on making it known. I pray that he "heard" me and what I need. I hope he will follow through. I pray that I can learn to let go of the resentment.

He has always said I have too high expectations for everyone, myself included. I asked him if he could give me some examples. Forward progress here...with laughter. The only 1 he could give me at the time was "you wanted Ward Cleaver and got Ozzie Osborne"! I cracked up! He was shocked and then started laughing. I asked him if he would think of some others too. Sure. Ok, when can I expect an response. He was surprised. I told him, no deadline but for me not to get anxious if I have an idea of when we'll talk about this I'll be ok. So he's thinking of this. He also is thinking on what I do/don't do that upsets/builds resentments/in other words love busters. I'm not sure why he doesn't just do the questionnaire but ok.

I'm now aware of my over responsibility is taking away from others and their choices and consequenses.
I'm now aware I assume to much.
I'm also now aware more than ever I don't fight fair.
I'm now aware my love for him is not totally dead. I really can't put much in his I like you column yet, but I'm hoping.
I'm also now aware I have to find a way to truly forgive him and let the resentment go.
I'm also aware as much as I want to let the resentment go I NEED him to meet my EN's and him to want to.
I'm also aware that I NEED to see effort by him, serious effort, no half a$$ just enough to get by with.
I'm also aware I AM TRULY trying to meet his EN's unfortunately I LB too.

Ok, there's the novel. What did I do right? What did I do wrong? Other areas of work needed?

oh did I say...THANK YOU. I deeply appreciate the advice.

It does seem to me that you don't allow H to do things without making H feel that H is wrong in what H does or says, I am guilty of that one myself.

there is nothing wrong with assuming, you can assume H to take responsibility, from what you wrote H is not, if you can not discuss the things that went on in the past its because H does not want to take it on, to pony up to it. H needs to.

fighting fair? are you calling names? swearing? yelling? I believe that if you are not doing any of these things, you are being fair. You know whats nice and whats not.

H needs to get you to fall in love again. What are the things H did while you were dating to get you to fall in love? these are the things H should be doing.

you can't forgive and let go if H is not coming clean with H's story. How can you forgive if you don't know what caused it? or what happpened? It must be talked about in order for you to let go.

start meeting his EN's, try that first. YOU be the person you want to be married to.


make it safe for H to do what H feels he needs to do. No critical talk.

Ask H if you are meeting his EN's, ask H what you can do better? see what H says.

Help me out, what responsibilities are you taking on that you don't want to? be specific.

OUCHEY...can you point me to what I said above that shows that? I don't want to do that.

Yeah in fighting I will yell, doesn't start out that way of course, starts out nice calm. No name calling and no swearing directed at him.

I am meeting his EN's according to his ENQ. He says I'm doing everything. I even try to mix in some of his not top needs.

I do TRY to make a safe place to open up to, I'm trying VERY hard to not be critical but does that mean I can't disagree with this position? I keep reminding him we are not going to agree 100% but we can agree to disagree unless 1 feels SO strongly then we need to reeveluate together and either negotiate or table what ever it is.

Responsibilities I have had, helping 2 daughters raise and care for GRK. THANKFULLY that is changing as oldest daughter and GD moved out mid June. My D's relapsed into teenage attitude (mom will do all) when they moved home, then of course there are the precious little ones that needed attention and care. Oldest daughter stayed here WAY to long 3 years, 1st out of necessity, then became why leave if mom and dad will provide. So I tend to take on too much with my kids their problems, etc. and that doesn't help them grow.

With my H, I don't want to be the sole person responsible for all the financial decisions,the getting them paid, figuring out budget, etc , being the sole person to be the family contact, I don't want to be the sole person having to care for our home and it's repairs. H will cut grass and weed eat but anything else is put off and putt off, I don't want to be the sole one being responsible to work on the M. All decisions left to me so therefore anything doesn't work out it's my fault instead of working together and whatever happens happens.

I know I caused some of this by my wanting "to help". I felt sorry for my girls and I wanted the best for them, so I helped. I wanted my H to feel good to come home, not pressure so I did/do all the home stuff along with the financial stuff again thinking I'm helping along with working. But since I only work part time "family" thinks I'm their personal assistant. I'm starting to say "no" more often to both the girls and H too. You need a doc appt, YOU call, YOU need a prescription filled, YOU call. I'll still help but I'm NOT offering as much, they have to ask and then I'll decide. I'm not an automatic yes anymore. I've taken care of them so long and I don't resent that, it's just I NEED/WANT to be taken care of too.

Since H's EA my eyes have been opened as to how much I do for him that is more mothering than wife. It's a bit of a change for him to understand I'm NOT doing that anymore.

DF, did that answer you question?

Hi mvg.....found you!

I've been searching for your threads and not only found you but found a few others I wondered about.

LA is great and will help you tremendously like she did me. She's ignoring me now <wink, wink, LA!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />> and that's a good sign.

You said:


I did that, too and LA helped me see what an enabler I was....actually I was an arrogant, self-serving, controlling, mothering enabler....but now I've graduated to just being an anabler...'trying to recover enabler' at best.

You're getting great advice so I just wanted to cheer you on. I dont know how you've been able to deal with all the stressors in your life, but may you continue to press on, venting when you need to....

btw, type your posts as a word doc first so you don't get timed out. (Or use your 'back' button and hightlight, cut and paste ~control C~ and then reenter your post using control v.)

God Bless,

Ace

Ace thanks for replying. I KNOW where alot of my "stuff" comes from and NOT having truly addressed those directly, for me when I get stressed/doubtful, etc brings those childhood memories back VERY strongly.

For example being sexually molested as a 10 yr old by step grandfather, told mother and her reply was oh he tried that stuff with me too. He did NOT try those things with me, he did them. No one EVER stood up for me. Now true she was going thru a divorce and being very selfish at the time, but geezzz I AM her child. Just let it go? That HAUNTS me.

Dad was a physical abuser and adulterer. Abused mom & me. AGAIN she never stopped it. She did get divorce but that brought about a whole new set of problems. She feeling like she was cheated in her M started acting like she was teenager and I could be responsible for my sisters while she did her "fun" things. Again I was 10-11 yrs. old and they were 4 & 2. Even after her remarriage I was responsible for them because she was a newlywed. So I know where my over responsibility comes from. Anything happen to them I answered for it. I see this is where I also became overly conscience of trying to fix or try and control others problems so I didn't have to pick up the pieces. This is also where my TOTAL HATRID/NON TOLLERANCE for any type of infidelity is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE. It tore my family apart. And I know that's also why I have such a hard time trusting people.

My WH KNOWS all those things. He has seen over the course of our M how I react to stressful situations and how they effect me. I guess that's why I'm having the hardest time with WH's EA according to him having nothing to do with me.

So I see my flaws and the why they are, I just don't know how to make them be a VERY distant memory and not effect me so much.

And Ace, yeah I know what you mean about thinking/trying suicide...ANYTHING to make the pain stop. That was a option, hopefully not anymore. I CAN make it, maybe not with WH, but I WILL make it...hopefully.

I do have a wonderful role model for a good and generous and thoughtful behavior. I do try very hard to model myself after her. I thank God everyday for my grandmother. She has saved me in more ways than one.

THANK YOU I need the cheering. I'm not always so sure I'm doing the "right" things, once your heart is broken it's hard to be objective.

Hey also, How do you do a link? I don't know if read my entire story unfortunately I have a couple of threads. Under Just Found Out Internet Infidelity, GQII Fence sitting, and GQII Life after EA and ???'s.

Lovinganyway and doingfine any comments, suggestions on my posts? I'm so confused and scared these days, I don't want to mess up I want to do this right. I'm trying to learn and take your advice.

Okey dokey, WH after thinking comes back to me with his expectations.....nothing, I'm doing everything he expects.
HUH? I asked him if could be more specific because there are things I don't want to do anymore and it could be one of his expectations. So far nada.

WH does LBQ. Nothing applies. Huh? I ask him are YOU sure? He says I read the directions, most start with delibrate does (whatever catagory) and he doesn't feel I do such things delibrately. I give him mine, he says "I see you wrote alot, see I KNEW I was the problem." UGH!!! I explained I didn't take the questions quite as literally as he did because at 1st I didn't think he LBed (except for dishonesty) either. However if I looked at what hurt me there were things, delibrate or not.

I think I'm thinking to much. What do I do? I'm meeting his EN's, he's a bit mixed up and meeting his EN's too, not mine. When do they get it? I WANT him to WANT to meet my EN's. I'm NOT telling him he's not, I just continue to meet his, I think this is giving him a false impression that I'm happy.

I'm trying not to control,enable,manipulate, etc. So WHAT DO I DO? Do I ever get anything in this relationship that I truly crave? Maybe I should ask, what is it that I'm not getting?

You remind me so much of myself. I was guilty of taking care of everything for years. It started out innocently enough - when we married, I had 2 sons, he had 4 kids and 2 stepkids. So there was a lot to take care of. I enjoyed it at first, but he started doing less and less and less.

So what you need to figure out is that it took YEARS for your marriage to get into this mess, and it will take YEARS for you to get out of it.

You might want to read Cloud and Townsends "Boundaries" book, because it sounds like you really need some. Adults abused as kids don't usually have any.

I think things sound very promising, so please don't settle for a fair marriage. You want a GREAT one.

Thanks Believer! I am starting to believe I DESERVE one! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

mvg,

Lemme begin here...

"Ok, when can I expect an response. He was surprised. I told him, no deadline but for me not to get anxious if I have an idea of when we'll talk about this I'll be ok."

Sounds to me like you discovered two parts to FWH's non-response...not knowing when or if he will respond. When or if he will share.

And when he does...you feel whacked hard.

His PERCEPTION is that you do his thinking for him.

Okay...that's his perception...his experience. Does not mean you are doing it or not doing it.

Good to examine in yourself...as when you said you can see things differently. I don't think that's what he's saying. He's saying when he sees things differently, he's hearing he is bad, wrong, defective. I believe that comes with the parenting not partnering...was for me. Where I would think "He shouldn't think that way, believe that, perceive that."

So dividing up what is his truth from the truth is essential. His thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions and perspectives are his own...not the truth, his truth.

Sharing is knowing and sharing your truth...and NOT making it The Truth.

"So he's thinking of this. He also is thinking on what I do/don't do that upsets/builds resentments/in other words love busters. I'm not sure why he doesn't just do the questionnaire but ok."

His way is about him...like his EA. Doesn't mean you don't matter, aren't important--in fact, doesn't change you are half of the marriage...doesn't change he's half.

Listen to yourself when you speak...do you hear yourself trying to convince him of anything that is his? Not actions...those are what we judge. Rather...if he thinks that's an ugly color of blue and you like it, do you say, "I'm getting that color really hits you wrong. I understand that. I like it myself." Validation for his opinions tell YOU that they are OPINIONS.

Like taking the EA as about you...your failing or not...rather than his choice alone to seek in fantasy, to shortcut rather than work through. Yes, he harmed you greatly because he harmed the marriage. No, you don't have to be the cause, control or cure...in fact, you cannot be, to his choices, his actions, his stuff.

Nor he you.

Getting this separate and equal is how we have intimate marriages. We crave being the cause so we can be the cure. Think parenting...all the solutions we devise, believe we can protect, change, cure, control our children...that is our responsibility to do so.

As if they weren't complying of their own free will. And they are.

As much as we are responsible for them, their compliance is the other half. They allow us to care for them.

Easy to see where parenting is our first and deepest inclination in the ways to love...that if your partner would believe differently, they would experience less pain and think of you better. You'd be safer.

Their pain is about them, to them...their signal...for a reason. Don't get in the way of their reasons. HEAR their stuff as their own.

Ask for what you need. Look how you did that..."I respect you can feel overwhelmed, engulfed during our conversations. I've felt the same way at times. When I need a timeout, to resume our discussion at another time, or after I've sorted something out, I'll ask for it. I will give you a time when I will be returning to it. I ask of you the same. Not knowing when we will continue our talk is what fuels my fear (I hear "never again") and I know that's not real. Dates and times tell me I can rely on being heard and hearing. Open-ended is what I fear. Not you."

When we are in the habit of giving our power to our partner...telling them all about them...they hear they are the problem so they have to be the solution...they have to solve our feelings, thoughts, beliefs, etc. Tough way to live. Very painful life experience.

They aren't. People cannot be problems. They sure can have them. Treat him as your equal, for he is...he is as capable as you are. Do you want his choices to be about you, or about him...coming from his choice to love you? If you are his reason, then he is yours...keeps your focus where you have no power, you're over your limits and deepens enmeshment...which IS fantasy.

What strikes us deeply is about ourselves, mvg. You fear being seen as controlling. If your focus is all over him...then who is focusing on you, your real responsibility and limit? Are you abandoning yourself? Are you living through him, his choices and actions, to define who you are?

"I'm now aware of my over responsibility is taking away from others and their choices and consequenses."

Are you using this awareness to bash or love yourself? How you defined loving well as taking over, doing for, pleasing...would you consider that's how you felt really loved? Being done for, ENs met fully, pleased...full of their focus? And you NOT doing that for you, for fear of looking selfish, self-absorbed?

Really loving yourself isn't engulfing yourself...getting how terribly painful and fear-filled feeling engulfed is for our partners is a big step to understanding what we do and not do...and not loving authentically...just by rote. By senses. Not by choice.

I felt AWFUL when I read "Facing Love Addiction" (I think it's by Melodie Beattie)...and realized what my DH hurt from, I would feel loved, if he did it to me. His fear of intimacy was as painful as my fear of abandonment...and we both have both fears. Swinging back and forth between them. If he knew the real me...he'd abandon me. Gotta earn harder...as if I can earn security from abandonment.

Or intimacy.

You cannot take away others' choices. They choose.
No one can take away your choices. You choose.
What you are experiencing is basing your choices on others' response...their reactions. Changing you to get them to change.

Snake eating its tail ring a bell?

Seems wholly rational and understandable you're at this point, right now, where you realize through AWARENESS what you were doing and not doing wasn't right or wrong...healthy and unhealthy. And how the premise behind your choices was to love fully, deeply, completely...and to feel loved fully, deeply, completely.

"I'm now aware I assume to much."

Assuming is fantasy. Just like A's...not real. We are taught to interpret, judge, pat down and know what we really don't know. We aren't taught how corrosive that is to human connection, how it smacks down acceptance, increases rejection, and gives a really difficult life experience.

Learning it's okay to not know what you don't know right now is huge. See the difference here between not knowing another's stuff and their actions? Good to know, be aware of actions...not healthy to judge their stuff. Or to interpret their actions...assign your perception as truth...which is why it hurts when others make their truth The Truth to you.

Don't do it to them.

DJs were really my bread and butter. Fed my affair with resentment, rightness, wrongness...affected so much of my life. Since I assumed about others' stuff...I assumed my own...and I'm the only one who CAN know my own stuff. Assuming was safer, I guess. Assuming meant not looking into the sun directly...assuming from my own shadows what it was like.

You can look inside and not combust. You can face the heart of your own light and not go blind. You're not bad, wrong, defective...you are created from the marvelous hands of God, separate and equal to every single human on the planet.

God didn't make no junk. He doesn't.

We can pile a lot of junk over us as we try to recreate his creation to be safe, though.

"I'm also now aware more than ever I don't fight fair."

No need to fight at all, mvg. No one can take away a single molecule of your being...who you really are. Nor can they add to it. You can surely experience life as if others can. Strive first to understand, then be understood. Takes fairness right out of the equation...and fighting.

You are not your actions...revoke your permission to LB...because that's not who you really are...that's not in your code. You don't need to raise your voice to be heard...hear yourself. It isn't his opinion that defines who you are...his thoughts are not your enemies, his beliefs, his perceptions...they are his...and you choose your own...you define yourself, 'k?

"I'm now aware my love for him is not totally dead. I really can't put much in his I like you column yet, but I'm hoping."

Loving feelings result from loving actions. You've been looking at his actions to validate his love for you, so you can have loving feelings. Yet, you've blocked your own love bank time and time again...look to loving as a verb from your own choice to love...act accordingly (meeting ENs) and own the resulting loving feelings from what YOU do...gets you clear to see all the ways he acts on his love for you. His choice. Not in your control. You cannot earn his love...which means you can't manipulate him into loving you.

He does.

Period.

You do.

Period.

Own it.

Which is why when we choose to act from our beliefs, not our feelings, we then experience a life overflowing with love, respect, acceptance, joy...I call it thriving.

"I'm also now aware I have to find a way to truly forgive him and let the resentment go."

Examine your resentment...it's yours. It's a signal to you, about you, from your beliefs. I don't believe in letting resentment go, as if it comes in and goes out. I believe when we own how we created, maintained and nurtured our own resentment, find the false payoff, see where we've done it our whole lives...then we get that our partner isn't powerful enough to be our cause, control or cure...and forgiveness is more likely to be our choice for we know where we end and they begin. And we know we are as forgivable as they are.

Human to human.

"I'm also aware as much as I want to let the resentment go I NEED him to meet my EN's and him to want to."

If he can control what you feel--resentment, love, joy, fear, frustration, rejection through meeting or not meeting your ENs today...then what are you here for? Do you like being the control of HIS stuff? Do you like this fantasy?

Consider what you crave most you are least giving.

Get into the heart of that and see where you want others to do your work and you'll do theirs. Is that a possibility?

Are you giving yourself attention or is your attention on him? You may be signalling yourself through projection. Getting him to do this, not do that, listen to this, not think that...may all be about you...to do for you, not do that to you; listen to you, hear your own thoughts and not dwell (think that). Flip stuff over...for your focus can devour your love through resentment, anger, pain and fear...and decimate it. Won't feel loving feelings as a result...for you aren't doing for you what you require to be done for you, are ya?

"I'm also aware that I NEED to see effort by him, serious effort, no half a$$ just enough to get by with."

Show yourself serious effort...listen to your thoughts, check your own beliefs...do your own thinking...through awareness, not judgment...because you may give yourself a tiny enough amount of focus to get by with. Ouch.

You judging him into dust means you're doing that to yourself. Not loving, not knowing, DJing yourself to bits.

Stop. Revoke your permission to yell, AO, DJ, lie or make selfish demands of yourself right now. Respect yourself...you're already whole, complete and marvelously made. You are not bad, wrong or defective. You're hurting yourself by the minute...look and see how you are LBing yourself. Then you'll see better what you're doing to others.

That two-way street doesn't stop or go one-way only, even if we say, "I'm my own worst critic"...we are lying to ourselves. If we criticize ourselves, we are doing that to others. If we are actively loving ourselves, we are actively loving others.

"I'm also aware I AM TRULY trying to meet his EN's unfortunately I LB too."

One LB wipes out 20 love deposits. That's inside and out. To me, it does this because we are operating from proving we love and are loved. One bears far more weight.

Ask yourself...would you rather busy yourself with evaluating, judging, proving you love and are loved...or knowing you do and are?

"Ok, there's the novel."

I read a lot of novels. Feel free to write as many as you want to...

"What did I do right? What did I do wrong?"

You made it about being right or wrong.

Seriously. Funny, but serious.

"Other areas of work needed?"

Acey is sharing she knows this path. Like me, she travelled it. Now she's experiencing how difficult it is to see someone on it...stepping into that hole, twisting this way and the other. Listen to her, please. Hear how loving she really is...for yourself, and for her. She's reaching out to who she was...which is still about her, her healing, balance and who she is...so you can also see yourself...not as bad or wrong...not fixing yourself...really getting your self...maybe, for the first time.

That was my experience. More to know...not to fix. When we really see what we do, why we choose to do it...uncover the real beliefs we're living from...then we stop doing and not doing whatever it was...because that's really not who we are.

"oh did I say...THANK YOU. I deeply appreciate the advice."

Please also thank yourself for posting...asking for...seeking...reading...considering...feeling...all your stuff. Appreciate who you really are...all of your human stuff...and know your power and limits...not to blame, fix or bash...to really know...that this IS love. In every post, it's about you and the poster...each half...each sharing for their own benefit and the byproduct is connection, understanding, acceptance...because you chose to respect and accept respect.

Respect as knowing we are all equal, separate, and connected, anyway.

LA

P.S. And I wasn't excluding "doingfine" from being listened to...I'm asking you to hear the love, connection, and mutuality from every poster. Sorry 'bout that, DF! Your contributions are terrific. Thank you. (And believer rocks, of course!)

Thank you LA, again alot to digest printing and re-reading and thinking on your response. I think I might need the "specially challenged class" on M, ie "M for dummies".

La,the one thing right off the bat that hits me in your post
I don't think I love myself... I seek/crave confirmation and affirmation (sp?) from others. And when I don't get that I am quick to think I'm not doing enough for them to notice ME, especially WH. So I keep trying.

I'm underminding myself aren't I?

So what do I do, give myself the "atta boys" I need? Never anticipating WH to do it?

I'm sorry I sound so lame. I have so much conflict going on in my mind I need baby steps.

Great realization, mvg.

Maybe you do love yourself...and you are not acting in loving ways to yourself, the way you explained?

What aided me was defining my code and living to it...acting from it, rather than earning love from others, earning safety, to counteract my fear.

And yes, in my code is appreciation and consideration...so what I do for others, I do for myself...and what I do not allow myself to do to others, nor do I allow me to do that to myself.

So when I share my appreciation of others...I do so internally, as well...I appreciate my focus, my listening to know, lots of stuff I do during the day...there are thank yous in there...same with admiration...even when I get focused on what I cannot control...and catch myself...change my thoughts...I thank myself and reinforce, "Yes, that's what I want."

Lovingly. I'm not earning my own self-love...I'm living it. Stays in my awareness...which is a big part of loving well, I believe. Visible love. Makes me visible, too, doesn't it?

Same for confirmation/affirmation inside...did I hold to my code? Only we know, don't we? The more we confirm/affirm (or correct honestly), the more we feel like we exist, feel we are equal beings...after knowing we are.

A key part of this state of mind came from our MC who asked me, seemingly point blank, "Are you a human being or a human doing?"

Hmmmm.

LA

LA, I'm still disecting your post above. But I wanted you to know, I'm taking to heart your look at the actions statement. I haven't truly acknowledged the changes in his actions my WH has/is making so I started a list, there is quite a few things on there, good things.

(Ok get the 2x4 out...not everything I crave, nor as fast I'd like)...BUT definite changes which I am truly grateful, and if I have to keep the list as a reminder till my troubled mind grasps everything I will, and I am happy for those changes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Including working on ME what other M goals (for lack of a better word) should I be working on?
1. Meeting WH EN's
2. NO DJ's nor LBers
3. ?????

Sounds pretty anal retentative doesn't it?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

This morning I started reading alot of older threads, Acey's story, Passive/Aggresive behavior and alot of others. Sure do wish I had dsl, would make this old computer move alot faster and reading alot faster too.

I just wanted to say "WOW"! I see myself alot, but I'm starting to see why WH behavior is what it is. It sure is hard to keep it all straight in my head. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />