We were discussing this on another thread and since this section of the board has more traffic I thought we should ask the question over here and get more opinions on the matter.

Ace asked the following question.


OK pros, care to share your thoughts on this?

LC

Dr. Harley says in the book Surviving an Affair that if you are early on in recovery and haven't yet filled your love banks to levels where you are both mutually -in love-.. that even these 'suprises' should be discussed as part of Recovering through Honesty.. specifically regarding future plans. Use the Policy of Joint Agreement.. say things like 'How would you feel about doing XYZ for your birthday?'


Oh.. and I'm no pro.. I just happened to read that in the book last night <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.. I'm still a rookie here.

Jamesus,

Thanks for answering and I'm glad you read the book. I'm still relatively new, too even though it's been about a year since I found SAA and eventually these MB forums in Jan. 06.

Another question is:

Does Radical Honesty only pertain to one's relationship with one's spouse? Or should it apply to all relationships....family, friends, co-workers. .. etc.

Ace

He must be a slow reader. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> He probably hasn't learned about RH yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Be patient....like good wine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Here's what Fled the State shared on the other (20-90 Something) thread:

Here's what RIF had to say:




90/5

Here's what AmIok shared....I appreciate the links:

So Orchid and other MB veterans,

How do you babble around to surprise your spouse with a birthday party/gift or anniversary cruise, concealing the surprise but not violating RH?

Also, does RH apply only to one's spouse?

Ace

Coming from my perspective, of linguistic analysis and communication, I have this to offer.

A surprise in this context isn't a lie.

It's a surprise. A gift, meant to please. The behavior involved is done with love, humor, and laughter, in an attempt to convey warmth and intimacy. The recipient is being HONORED, not disrespected, by a group of people who love him.

Linguistically, the difference between a lie and a surprise in this context is HUGE.

Contextually, a lie in this situation would be to either detour the person around premature discovery of the gift, or further set up a situation leading up to the surprise, or perhaps meant only to mislead gently away from conversations which might lead to the possible early discovery of the gift, etc. Lies in these cases are not considered "to the benefit of the lie teller" as most lies would be; rather, the lies would be considered to the benefit of the receiver - in order to preserve the more timely and exciting presentation of the surprise gift.


Lies, by and large, in the true meaning of "lie", would usually benefit the teller in some way - to protect from discovery of BAD behavior, criminality, etc. In the case of "surprise", it is the exact opposite - the behavior is GOOD, and benefits the receiver of the gift in the end.

Minor deception to make the receiving of the gift more exciting.

Playful, fun, loving.



Linguistically speaking, I would not characterize these as "lies", and they would be unlikely to actually come up on a polygraph as "deceptive" behavior - in fact, I'm not sure how they might register! I think this would actually confuse the polygraph, as the very nature of this type of behavior is not truly "deceptive" within the spirit of the heart, so the person would intrinsically view it as "loving" behavior.

IMVHO, I think it is one of the sweetest things people do for one another.

As for reading the book as a surprise, I find this one truly special.

I wish my husband would do this (read the book!). I hope that little bits of the advice seep out into the behavior, and thus into the marriage along the way, as the chapters are read. Little pieces slipping out in loving behavior, showing signals of the "surprise" before it's unveiled in the end....how nice that would be. It's probably happening already, and what beauty that would add to the marriage.

SB

Personally, I now choose NOT to reward bad behavior no matter what it falls on (i.e. anniversary, etc.). I also choose to reward on as many good occasions as I can. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Remember I am a long standing member of the 'giver's club' and old habits are hard to break. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here's my experience:

I recall one anniversary where the OW (who loved to make MY life miserable), called on our anniversary day. It was a Sunday morning and we had special reservations for a brunch in the city where H's favorite radio station hosted a Sunday brunch show. It was my present for him since we were suppose t/b in recovery.

So while we were getting ready, his phone rings. He is in the shower, so I answer it thinking it is work. OW demands to speak to him. I tell her he is IN THE SHOWER, would she like me to go IN THERE and take him THE PHONE???? By this time I am fuming but reverse babble kicked in nicely. Of course now we are BOTH furious but for different reasons. She knew what day it was because he TOLD her we were going.....Oh.... I was angry again...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I didn't lose my cool with her and of course that infuriated her more. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

However, my anger was reaching the boiling point. He walks back into the room to get dressed and I whop him with this info. He is stunned. Stupid WS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I told him the brunch is off. I had already paid for it but too bad. He wasn't invited and either I go myself or with someone else.

At this point he is begging. He comes clean and OW gets a phone call. He tells her she is wicked for calling to ruin our day and that he is sorry he even told her about it.

Not enough.... I am still fuming. Our son is already staying with SIL's family so it's just us at home. Time's clicking away and the brunch ain't stoppin for no one.

I tell him to get out. Plan B is required and he needs to leave for my sake. Then he makes a turn. It ended up not being full recovery but it was a turning point.

Unfortunately the brunch didn't go as well as I wanted. I ended up taking him. Still fuming, he tried to be quite nice. That made me mad too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> The brunch itself was good but of course I didn't enjoy it much and certainly wasn't about to make ourselves the center of attention by proclaiming we were there to celebrate an anniversary. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

After that he had to go back to work and I spent the rest of the day contemplating...... 2 b or not 2 b? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think it was about that time where I realized my boundaries needed t/b implemented. See I gave in and took him to brunch.... a reward but there was no reason for the reward other than to save face. That didn't feel good. Special occasion or not, the brunch wasn't worth it. Yet, NOT to go would have in some weird way given the OW victory. Remember her objective was to ruin MY day. She didn't give a rat's azz about even her BF (WS) because she ruined his day also.

I realized that part and that is why I decided to go....not as a reward to him but as a step to prove to all that NO ONE was going to force me to alter my plans......

He knew....he knew the reason why we went was no longer as a gift for him. That I believe was important. Because it changed the dynamics. It was not an occasion to go for him as a start to make things right for me.

He lost his gift.....he went but in reality the spirit of the gift was lost.

I share this story so you can see, that when there is bad behavior, there are ways t/d but also teach a lesson.

Here in that moment, I had his attention. Sometimes we can use those types of occasions as a way to make our point. It is hard but it c/b a valuable tool.

NEVER, NEVER pass up an opportunity to cut through the fog..... slicing and dicing the A 'is a special occassion'. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Of course, I had to remember my boundary...... it had been broken and yes....they had to pay. I had made my point to the OW. She realized she was NOT going to break my spirit or will. She also realized I considered her beneath me and always would. That made any forced interaction with her tolerable.

WS' pay was that our special day was now a trigger and it was HIS fault. Listening to that radio station is also a trigger. Not as much of a biggie for me (I like more of a variety than he does)...... but he caused himself to lose in our R what he loved..... his music.

There's another story about a concert.....I'll save it for another day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Oh Schoolbus,

Herein lies my WH's justification for hiding his continued contact with his OW.


WH viewed his hiding the continued EA from me as a 'loving behavior'. He was doing me a favor by hiding it.... just like a recent thread title says. And, because we were so detached, his finding his needs met elsewhere was a favor to me, too. It kept me from having to meet his needs....that I did NOT even know about...another favor to me. H did NOT tell me about these needs because so many other things were important in my life and he "didn't want to distract me." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Why? Because I perceived that he did NOT want to be a part based on his actions. And his actions resulted from perceiving that I did NOT want him to be a part. See the vicious cycle......and his lying and hiding about it was a 'loving act' from his perspective.

Maybe I will ask for the polygraph test after all.

Orchid...I have to read your story again....and I'll respond later. I appreciate both perspectives.

Thanks,

Ace

Hey Orchid...

I re-read and appreciate your thoughts:


So there are levels of toleration, huh......your pay value was high enough to make the contact bearable. What would you have done if the pay value had not been high enough?

Ace

PS I do want to hear the concert story...and it is another day and another time...what happened?