I just saw your comment about your STBXH and then read your sig. I am SO sorry you and your children went through that. IMO that is the worst thing anyone can do, prey on sweet innocent children. I am surprised YOU aren't in jail for beating the living sh*t out of him.

Startingover, you are confusing the term "FOG" with MENTAL ILLNESS or being UNCONCONCIOUS. It is NEITHER. It is a state of mind that is FULLY AWARE and FULLY CONSCIOUS and FULLY RESPONSIBLE.

It is not an EXCUSE or a rationalization, it is an EXPLANATION. A wayward does not even KNOW about the term "FOG," they only learn about it here AFTER the affair, IF AT ALL.

How can you fail to see with your own eyes the stupid, inane, irrational things that are said by your average WS and doubt that the FOG exists? How is that possible when you have been here for 4 years? Do you read the posts here?


He doesn't say that at all. He is describing a STATE OF MIND, not a decision. The fog comes AFTER the affair has started - NOT BEFORE. An alcoholic does not have FOG [drunkeness] before he starts drinking, but AFTER.

I just don't think you understand the term and I don't know any other way to help you understand. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

No, it is different.

There's a difference between not having the tools with which to make good decisions anyway, and having the tools but allowing yourself not to use them.

If you're used to basing what you do on certain values and principles, then when you allow yourself to ignore those principles, you lose a clear sense of Right and Wrong. Instead you have Feels Good and Feels Bad, which have no attachment to conscience. Once you get into the habit of making decisions based on desires rather than conscience, you lose your own moral compass and begin to find it hard to know what's Right and Wrong at all. The mistake is in giving yourself permission to 'relax' your principles.

Let me see if I can explain it another way so you can understand, Startinover. When a person is doing something BAD, they cannot tell themselves they are BEING BAD. No one wants to believe they are bad, because if they believe and admit that, then they will have to CHANGE. It is just human nature.

So what is a wayward to do? Since he won't change himself [which would mean giving up the ho], he has to ALTER REALITY. In order for him to JUSTIFY the affair in his mind, he has convince himself that he is BEING GOOD by ALTERING REALITY to accommodate his bad behavior. He has to alter reality to portray himself as the VICTIM rather than the perp.

Enter the FOG. The FOG is a DEPARTURE from reality. This is why you hear foghorns make up the most idiotic rationalizations for their affairs such as the "abusive husband," "never in love;" a wacked out rewriting of history. A departure from reality.

This is a classic trait of those who are BEING BAD. And usually when one is this committed to being bad, it is because they are ADDICTED to the source of their badness. [otherwise they would stop being bad] Alcoholics make up all manner of excuses for their drinking, and so do adulterers. They justify and rationalize, NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM ABOUT "FOG," but because they are runnning from REALITY and do not want to quit.

Again, the FOG is not a justification for ANYTHING, it is only a term used to describe a STATE OF MIND.

And most importantly, the affair DOES NOT HAPPEN because of the FOG and no one EVER says it does. The FOG comes AFTER the affair starts.

Ah-ha! THAT makes perfect sense to me. There WAS NO fog BEFORE my FWH decided (yes, conciously decided) to betray me. The fog came later when he tried to rationalize, justify or explain his choices to me, everyone else and himself. He had no idea he was in a FOG... but everyone else could see it and only shake their head.

As a FWS, I agree with all of Mel's posts on this thread.

Fog is not justification, no one is suggesting it is.

All of the sh*t I said right after d-day was fog-speak, but I TOTALLY BELIEVED IT WAS THE TRUTH AT THE TIME. It wasn't something I made up to con or rationalize. I believed it totally.

After a WS completes withdrawal, the fog clears and they can see those statements as ludicrous.

I imagine there are some WSs who consciously come up with lies to gaslight their BSs, but that is a different animal than fog-speak.

It is fog speak because the WSs truly believe the crap they are spewing.

Thanks for your perspective, MAZ. Your "credentials" are important to this discussion, and lend hope to BSs that there's hope for their foggy WSs as well.

Mel said:


Check. I'm with you so far.

But...


Not necessarily. When I was having my affair, I didn't need to ALTER REALITY to find justifications. I had plenty of REAL fuel for that fire. I didn't need to make anything up.

I really DIDN'T love my husband when I married him. He really WAS abusing porn and alcohol. He really WAS being emotionally abusive to our children. He really HAD become pretty miserable to be around most of the time.

Did any of that REALLY justify my affair? NO, NO, NO! Of course not! To state the obvious, I could have divorced him at any point along the way. None of the above was any excuse to cheat.

My only point is... not all W's have to rewrite history, fabricate problems in the marriage, or make their BS out to be a monster to justify what they're doing.

People really DO marry partners they don't love. Sometimes they even stay with them for years and have children with them. Sometimes people really DO have serious problems in their marriage. And sometimes, BS's really DO do things that hurt their WS's and push them away. And when that is the REALITY... there is no need to lie to yourself to cook-up the justification you seek.

You (BS's) can dismiss everything W's say as fogspeak if you want to... but if you do it without ever giving ANY consideration to the possibility that at least SOME of what they say is valid... I think you do so at your own peril.

If my husband hadn't acknowledged all of his destructive behaviors and worked to change them... he'd still be engaging in them. And he'd still be wallowing in his own misery.

As for the part about me not loving him... there's not really much he can do about that. And I haven't been able to change my feelings for him either... despite all the amazing ways he has changed and improved himself, and all my attempts to meet his EN's etc.

If your WS tells you they never loved you... and it seems to you, based on your own clear memories, that it couldn't possibly be true... fine. Proceed as though it were nothing more than fogspeak. But if there's any chance it might be true, you'd probably be better served to acknowledge the possibility than to dismiss it as fogspeak... lest you find yourself stuck in your own type of FOG known as DENIAL.

--SC

Well, you just made my point for me. As you admit yourself, NONE of these conditions JUSTIFY an affair so it is an alteration of REALITY to pretend like they are. The alteration comes with the notion that "I am not happy, therefore I am ENTITLED to an affair." You probably used all of those reasons to justify abusing your H. There is no excuse for an affair. NONE.


By far, the vast majority DO, though. It is the RULE rather than the exception. But, some don't. Some are simply immoral and/or feel entitled.


Did he marry you knowing you didn't love him? WHY? And does he know you feel this way now?

So, you're saying that you had your affair BECAUSE of all these things? Or did you just have an affair because you didn't care.

Seems to me if you're saying you had your affair BECAUSE of all these things (even if they are true) you were in your own fog-- deluding yourself that it was OKAY to do so BECAUSE of all the things your BH had done, was doing and the way you FELT-- instead of a) divorcing or b) working on the marriage.

You're right. Not all WS have to rewrite history. Sometimes they just do it BECAUSE they feel entitled.

BINGO!

You know, I do agree with this. Some waywards are not foggy at all, they are flat out IMMORAL, depraved and simply don't know right from wrong. They feel entitled. We have seen some here that fit that description. Thankfully, they are the exception rather than the rule.

Mel,

( I was never very good at poetry- so no)

I do understand what you are saying.

I interpret Fog as a behaviour associated with affairs-

Far too many times on this board over the past years for me- it seems to be accepted by spouses ...aaahhh its fog, that explains it...and cop it sweet

If it is behaviour –it can be changed. So I don't believe it is a state of mind-its a protective mind to assist in the justification.

All I am saying is don’t accept it.

It is clever, manipulative, destructive and hurtful.

And people need to learn to protect themselves from it.

Later

Max

MM, it is not "accepted," it is understood. Of course no one accepts it. It is a state of mind that is formed to rationalize.

Mel,

perhaps we have a differing perception of what a state of mind means.

ohh well, more to poner...

Later

Max

Mel,


You'll get no arguement from me on that point. I never said that my perspective wasn't skewed and twisted... only that I didn't have to FABRICATE justifications.

The topic of this thread is "fog-speak". It has been asserted that everything that comes out of a WS's mouth with regard to their spouse and marriage is utter nonsense and should be completely disregarded. I'm just saying that's not always the case.

And you can't prove that it IS the case the "vast majority" of the time. Just because the majority of cases that come to this board and stay around for awhile fit that mold, doesn't mean this board is a representative sample of all infidelity, all around the world, for all time. (For the record, I personally do happen to believe that history re-writing and BS-demonizing happens more often than not. But nobody here is qualified to say what percentage of the time it happens).

My concern is that new BS's come here and, without providing much background information, are AUTOMATICALLY told to disregard everything their WS says about their marriage and relationship. The newbie BS's are told that ALL WS's rewrite their marriage histories and fabricate grievances against their BS's.

Rarely does anyone ask any questions of the BS. Like: "Is there any validity to your WS's complaints?" or "Is it possible she really was unhappy, even if she didn't say so?" or "Under what circumstances were you married? Are there any FOO or abuse issues your WS might have?"

Instead, it is ASSUMED that the WS COULDN'T POSSIBLY have married someone they didn't love... and COULDN'T POSSIBLY have been unhappy in the marriage for any period of time before the affair. The WS's statements and complaints are SUMMARILY dismissed as "fog-speak".

I understand the need for BS's to protect themselves from irrational, hurtful, decpetive statements. I understand the need to have an explanation and label for some of the seemingly outrageous things WS's say. I can't even imagine how torturous and crazy-making it must be for a BS to stand there and listen to their WS spew real fog-speak.

But I DON'T agree with the automatic ASSUMPTION that EVERYTHING the WS says is fog-speak and has NO basis in reality. For example, if a WS REALLY WAS unhappy in the marriage for a number of years before the affair, and then tells the BS so on or after D-day... what purpose does it serve for the BS to dismiss it as fog-speak? IMO, the only thing that does is allow the BS to hold on to his own skewed version of reality and give him false hope. That's no help at all.

--SC

P.S. There was even a study recently that suggested that, much more often than you would think, married couples have vastly divergent views of their relationship. One spounse can be happy and content... and completely oblivious to the fact that his/her spouse is unhappy.

If that information comes to light in the absense of an affair, it's considered healthy discourse. If it comes to light after an affair, it's considered fog-speak. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

SC, I have no idea what your objection is since you seem to agree with everything we are saying. You have created a strawman, though, by asserting that we are saying that EVERYTHING that comes out of a WS's mouth is fogspeak and that doing so is to IGNORE the state of the marriage before the affair. No one EVER said that. No one ever suggested that one ignore the state of the marriage before the affair. You seem to be trying to make a case that ignoring fogspeak is the equivalent of ignoring the state of the marriage, but that is a false assertion. Plan A, heard of it?

The subject is about FOGSPEAK, which DOES EXIST. It is not to assert that EVERYTHING that comes out of a WS's mouth IS fogspeak or that there weren't problems in the marriage beforehand. MOST of it is, just as almost everything that comes out of the mouth of a drunk are drunken ramblings.

Everyone here knows that most marriages that experience adultery were UNHAPPY MARRIAGES. Do you actually read threads here? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Guess what? We talk about that every day here. That goes without saying. That is the entire point of PLAN A, to determine what made the marriage go bad and assure the WS that those issues are taken seriously and will change in a future marriage. But RARELY can the WS be counted on to give an accurate and honest representation until she is out of the fog.

Most things that come out of a wayward's mouth should be disregarded because they are WAYWARD and not in their right minds. They are in a FOG. That would be like taking a falling down drunk seriously. A wayward is full of lies, rationalizations, excuses, crazy thinking, etc. Some of it might be true, some is not, but usually not.

Rather, the time to take them seriously is after the affair has ended, withdrawal is over and they have come back to their senses. This is when REAL recovery begins, because that is when honesty is possible. The WS is no longer in the FOG and has the capability to be HONEST. HONESTY is always the first step in recovery.


No, Marriage Builders fully understands that most affairs happen in bad marriages. Have you not ever heard of PLAN A? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> However, a person who is in an affair is FOGGY, so much of what they say is FOG-SPEAK.

You didn't answer my question:


Quote:


As for the part about me not loving him... there's not really much he can do about that. And I haven't been able to change my feelings for him either


Did he marry you knowing you didn't love him? WHY? And does he know you feel this way now?

And why would anyone CARE what the "percentage" is and what would be the relevance? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> And why would we need to "prove" it is a "majority?" I am not getting your point, sc. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Addressing your last question first... re: percentage of WS who rewrite history, fabricate justification, and demonize their BS:

YOU brought it up a few posts ago by asserting:


Sorry for the confusion. I should have cited the quote in my post. If I have time later today, I'll come back and address your other post.

Gotta run,
SC