[color:"blue"]The idea for this thread comes from comments on another one and it was suggested it might be best if it were a new thread here, so...
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[color:"red"]Why not have an affair…[/color]
…with your own spouse?


This is not a new idea, and has been kicked around more than once since I got here. But Aphaeresis said something on her thread the other night that got me thinking and you all know what kind of trouble that can cause…

Her comment had to do with when it comes to SF she feels that the journey is more important than the destination. As strange as it might seem for a man to agree with that idea, I am in total agreement. My comment was that we should be building the need before doing the deed.

When we are courting, we actively attempt to seduce each other. We say things, drop hints, make suggestive or even lewd comments and generally build the tension long before getting around to actually “doing it.” When at a party we slip into the hallway for a quick kiss, maybe a forbidden squeeze or an inappropriate pat or touch and pretty much try to turn each other on.

During an affair, things often build for months with suggestive comments, off handed remarks and flirting that gets and keeps each other’s attention. This goes on for a long time before sex even becomes a possibility so it is no wonder that those, especially women (no offense meant) that get involved in an affair state, truthfully to them, that it wasn’t about sex, at least not at first.

Once we are married the whole world seems to change. The requirement for seduction is gone, we have won the prize and particularly for men this seems to mean that we no longer have to work that hard since we can now have what we want when ever we want and the things she considers “romantic” turn into what amounts to rutting rather than SF and it is neither satisfying nor fulfilling for either of us.

This becomes even worse when kids come along because the day begins with screaming kids, unfinished laundry and a sink full of last night’s dishes piled to the rafters. By the end of the day, often as much as 18 hours later, the wife is exhausted, the husband is nearly as tired and neither of them has any desire to work very hard for what they both consider a “duty” of marriage.

I have further thoughts on this but wanted to get this started and await comments. With no preconceived notions as to where this might head, I can see suggestions on how to solve this problem, venting by those frustrated by it and application of the Basic Concepts as possible directions this thread could take. Where it goes and where it ends up will be up to those who bother to post and so it is up to ya’ll as to where we go next.




Mark

Great topic, Mark.

I think that most BSs would love the opportunity to put this into practice in the M,,, knowing what we know now.

I agree, it is the journey, the anticipation that makes it for most women VS the deed itself.

I put this into practice during my Plan A. It was great. Unfortunately, the damage from the A, the prior marriage issues, my WS's issues, his determination to be 'done', his lack of belief that it was a permanent change in my belief system, , , WHATEVER, made it a short lived thing.

During our few R discussions, he mentioned wanting to have things "like they used to be at first". Like many BSs, my initial reaction was, "WEll that could never happen. Life is much different now". THEN, I learned differently. I even said to him, "I realize now, Why in the world WOULDN'T I want it like that, too?"

That, I think, is part of the shift in perception that comes from learning the MB concepts. Atleast it was for me.
It is one of the things that I am "taking away" from my experience and will definately put into practice SomeDay.

When we are courting, we actively attempt to seduce each other. We say things, drop hints, make suggestive or even lewd comments and generally build the tension long before getting around to actually “doing it.” When at a party we slip into the hallway for a quick kiss, maybe a forbidden squeeze or an inappropriate pat or touch and pretty much try to turn each other on.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


My husband and I did this flirty stuff all the time, right up until the day I found out he was having an affair. I don't know why it wasn't enough.

Because you can't...

...unless...

you both have someone close 2 you that you're lying 2, cheating on, and hurting 2 no end in order 2 have that affair.

I understand what you're saying about keeping the excitement alive in marriage. And that's a worthwhile goal.

But please, don't call it an affair. Okay?

-ol' 2long

From the chemical side of the equation, that means cranking up some PEA to digest. Hard to do, but not impossible. And the more kids, the harder it is.

Start out by talking about life, love and the pursuit of happiness. Yea, you done it before. Do it again. And talk about history before marriage. Talk about family; get intimate. Pretend that you never heard it before. Talk, talk, talk; and then talk some more.

Get to know each other again.

Go on a real date WITHOUT THE KIDS. And hubby has to be in SEDUCTION MODE.

Yea, it can be done. If you wanna.

Larry

Post deleted by MelodyLane

I love to flirt with my DH. I especially like to call his cell phone and say inappropriate things to him when I know he is standing in the nurses station. I always assume his face is red. LOL

There was a book written by Susan Kohl and Alice Miller Bregman in the late 80's titled "Have a Love Affair With Your Husband (Before Someone Else Does). I have it, but have never read it.

Melody.


I really like this idea. DH is going out of town the early part of next week. I just bought some sexy new undergarments and I think I will stick some in his suitcase. He should get a kick out of it.

LC

Post deleted by MelodyLane

I think one of the biggest reasons we fall in love in the first place is because we are putting our best foot forward when we first start dating and we also seem to put the rest of our lives on hold in order to spend time with each other. This time is never about fixing the house or mowing the lawn or doing dishes (though some interesting things can happen in the kitchen while everyone else is chatting in the living room after a great dinner and some good wine). We spend our time together actively seeking to make each other happy and that, I think is what gets lost in the day to day stress and cares of normal married life.

Thus Dr Harley's Undivided Attention. IF we continue to spend those 15 hours per week, as a minimum when all is going well with us as a couple, not talking about the kids or the car that needs repair but doing things that we both enjoy, both of our Love Banks get filled up.

This also gives us more incentive as well as more endurance to solve some of the problems that come from making you and me into "us."

And FWIW, Dr Harley has stated on his radio program (10am till 1pm Central Time- <end of plug>) that he first began to formulate his basic concepts including the Love Bank, Emotional Needs and all the rest from interviews with those involved in an affair. He asked them what it was that made the affair an attractive option to them and it was as they started to give answers to that question that he began to think that if the husband and wife would begin to do those same sorts of things for each other on a routine basis that the feelings that had developed for the OP in the affair would once more be created for their spouse.

While affairs generally, very near 100%, involve lying, hiding things from the spouse and causing chaos as a cover for the real activity, it is those things that someone involved in an affair does to create the fantasy relationship with their AP that I am referring to here rather than the lies and such.

I'm not suggesting that you need to lie, cheat or cause pain to someone, only that the atmosphere that exists within an affair be created between husband and wife. In fact, I would speculate that the lies and deceit of the affair are actually not the affair itself but rather side effects or consequences of it. The lies are told to hide the affair, not simply because it is an affair.


Mark

deephurts,

My wife too loved to flirt. She enjoyed the reaction she got from me, but the problem was that she didn't have the appropriate boundary enforcement in place to prevent her from seeking and enjoying that same reaction from other men. It is something that has occurred more than just once over our nearly 35 years together.

One of the things I now struggle with is that her response to having crossed those boundaries is to become less sexual and flirtatious rather than protecting those boundaries from others while letting down her guard with me. For me she has become prim and proper while for others she was able to be sexy and a flirt. There have been times when she was able to be those things with me, but her normal defense to fending off other men that are attracted to her has been to become less attractive.

It's something we have to deal with, but I think it can be done or I wouldn't be here.

Mark

Larry,

I think that not only does the husband have to be in seduction mode, but so does the wife. One of the problems many couples face is that for the husband every touch is a venture into foreplay and for our wives, every touch is...a venture into foreplay...

By that I mean that not every activity done together has to end in sex. But at the same time, if their is no possibility of sex the husband is less likely to put forth the effort.

We all know the deal here, even when dating. When a guy takes a girl out for coffee, his expectations are pretty low, usually that is. But if he takes her to Fiji for a month, he expects there to be more than a goodnight kiss on her father's front porch at 11:30pm.

I think that same thing applies in marriage, if a husband wants his wife to respond, he has to give affection, O&H, and UA whether there is any possibility of SF or not and the wife has to be willing to participate, not just "allow" SF if she wants her husband to put forth the effort.

If it becomes work for him and duty for her the feeling is lost and it simply becomes release and frankly, there are ways to do that without all the effort.

I think this is why porn is such a big deal for many men. The women in those pictures and movies are not only attractive, generally speaking, but also willing, enthusiastic and (seemingly) enjoying it as much as the men. For a man this is a powerful fantasy.

But browse the book aisle at the supermarket and see what women are reading. The novels are full of dashing young men who ride into town, seduce the fair maiden, often against her will, at least at first, usually over the course of several chapters, and while every other woman in town is chasing him and ride off into the sunset with her to live happily ever after. (Though more and more these days he simply rides off and leaves her with his child to raise alone, even in the romance novels)

So what I'm saying is that both husband and wife have to be participatory to the game for it to have the desired effect, which is to build desire for one another.


When done properly, teasing can make the journey as sweet as the destination, but if the road takes a detour before you arrive, the teasing becomes only frustration and anger on both sides. This leads to hurt feelings and the hurt becomes resentment.

Mark

Harlequin is turning into changling, vampire wars, and assorted demons as the genre morphs. But the concept is the same; all about the chase and the early passion and nothing about the nitty gritty details of happily ever after.

Don't forget the four most dreaded words that a man can hear from his new wife right after the wedding: "Now I can eat."

In the "Men are Idiots" realm, women recovering from an affair often seek to downplay their attractiveness in various ways. There are way to many males out there who assume that a woman wants to have their baby if she just smiles at them.

And continuing to wander in the weeds, I have noticed that trust is a big deal with women. Soooo, I ask women if they would trust a man who cheated on his wife. Outside the effects of infatuation, the answer is that none of them would.

Larry

Mel and LC,

I'm not ignoring the two of you (or you Bugsmom) I'm just not sure what I should say. You seem to understand exactly what I'm getting at.

Most of us men are highly visual. An old joke describes the difference between the sexes.

How do you seduce a woman?
Wine her. Dine her. Buy her gifts and flowers.
And lots of chocolate.
Share your deepest secrets and most daring dreams with her.
Make her feel safe and secure.
Show her how much you care for children.
It wouldn't hurt to cry at the sad part of the movie.
Make her feel like the only woman in the world.


How do you seduce a man?
Bring food.
Show up naked.



It's amazing the effect that the right outfit can make to a man. Even after a few pounds and a few more wrinkles, we tend to see our wives as we remember them. Recreating that special night from years ago can be as easy as digging out that old teddy. You don't even have to wear it. Just show it to him and tell him you were thinking of that night long ago.

If you want your husband to fall at your feet and grovel while whimpering like a fool. tease him with promises of what is to come while in a place where he can do nothing but wait. Your devious phone calls do this. So can modeling the new lingerie before having him zip your dress two minutes before guests arrive for a 5 hour party. Or go shopping for a new outfit and send pictures of some flirty little nightie to his cell phone with the note:"Thinking of you."

These are the kinds of things people having an affair do with their AP. If the effort gets put into the marriage instead, we might just get the same reactions we did from the OP.

But it still all comes back to UA, 15 hours per week doing things that you both enjoy. If we don't spend the time together, we can't build up the tension and find that we have little desire for the release of the destination because our journey has become only a travel log on TV, which is not much of a trip.

In today's world we have tried to replace the journey with a transporter from Star Trek. We want to climb onto the pad, push a button and be somewhere else when we get off. And just like on the Enterprise, our atoms get scrambled and dispersed all over the universe when anything goes wrong and short circuits the bloody thing.

Mark

Hey Mark - Interesting topic... Being away from Mrs. RIF for 6+ months until my R&R is definitely building up some "tension"!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Semper Fi,

RIF

Mark,


This is something I am really trying to convince my DH about. He still hasn't read FIL/SIL and doesn't see it being all that important. I have now resorted to leaving the book laying out on the kitchen counter. Next step is setting it in front of his computer monitor. LOL

DH and I had a conversation yesterday about touching. I mentioned to him that it is OK to be touchy feeling in a non-groping manner and it is much preferred. I can tell DH is a bit more comfortable in our relationship because he has fallen back on some old (undesirable) patterns.

In regard to flirting, I mentioned this thread to my DH last night and also mentioned it would be nice for him to initiate flirting with me. I also know flirting is way out of his comfort zone and I am not going to hold my breath. I simply wanted him to know it would be fun for him to flirt with me, too.

LC

Great topic and insightful thread, Mark. Will share a bit after I've had time to think about it.

When you've been detached looking for a way out for 32 years and you now feel like you're being valued, cherished, favored (and flavored!!!!LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />), it's soooooo very different....I did the deed w/out the need for so many years, remember?

More later.

Ace

Well, in my case the why not was answered by because in order for my WH to have an affair with me he would have to actually help out around the home and/or be receptive to me planning romantic getaways for just the two of us. Neither option was appealing for him.

And no, I did not 'nag' him to help out - he was well aware of the need and simply opted out. He would literally just go out and sit in the car when it was time to go somewhere, leaving me to pack the diaper bag, grab the grocery list, make sure the kids all had their mittens on... and then when I'd get in the car he would complain about one or more of the following: "Is that what you're going to wear?" "Didn't you get the check-book?" "Why did it take you so long?" Basically he was a jerk, just like his step-father was...

I had some very romantic/pretty/sexy photos taken at Glamour Shots and his only comment was: "why can't you look like that all the time?" I answered that the gals who did my make-up and hair were professionals with who knows how many years training and experience, and it took them about an hour to get me looking that way, AND he never allowed me any time to spend getting ready to go somewhere (he loved to go places spur of the moment and then complain that I didn't look like I'd spent any time getting ready to go...) I also pointed out to him that even the cover girls on magazines don't really look like that 24/7. Plus when they take those cover girl type photos they use theatrical make-up that you have to scrub off ASAP and they use tricks like pinning all your hair up and forward so from the back your head looks all weird and bobby-pinned. And of course there's also all the airbrushing used in magazines...
I honestly believe my WXH preferred glossy porn pictures to real women PERIOD.

I would plan romantic dates for us but he would ruin them. Once I had a stopover in Hawaii on the way home from a business trip to Australia. I offered to turn it into a three-day stopover and invited him to join me. It took about a month to talk him into it and then he pretty much ignored me in Hawaii, we were together all day but he barely spoke to me.

For our tenth wedding anniversary I booked a hot air ballon ride. His focus was all on the young wife of the guy who piloted the balloon...

A friend offered to watch our little girls overnight while we stayed at a nearby (literally walking distance) beach resort in Santa Cruz... when we went to drop off our daughters WH didn't want to leave her house! We hung around ALL DAY watching our daughters playing with her daughters and finally left as it was turning dark, after the friend insisted! WH was pretending concern over leaving our daughters with the friend - even though they'd stayed there before, her husband was away on business, and we would be VERY close by... We went for a VERY QUICK bite to eat, then to the hotel room, where he immediately started looking for porn on the tv. I objected to the porn so he turned it off and went to sleep.

My WXH was a VERY romantic fella... when we were dating... but after marriage he was only romantic when it came to other women BUT not for his wife. It's the way he was raised and he didn't want to change.

Last year I participated in an adult bible study group for divorced people. The men there complained that their ex-wives dressed very nice before marriage but had 'let themselves go' after marriage... My response was that women dress for the occasion: If a woman knows she's just going to be doing housework all day long and wiping the kids' runny noses while her husband sits and watches tv, then she's probably going to be wearing casual clothes and maybe won't even bother to put on make-up and perfume (time-consuming to put on and too expensive to waste on somebody who isn't even likely to glance your way during commercial breaks anyway). BUT if a woman is GOING out on a date she will dress nicely including doing her hair, nails, make-up, etc. IMHO it's not so much that a woman 'lets herself go' as the fact that once married many women rarely ever get to GO anywhere romantic again.

Unless it was my birthday or our wedding anniversay my WH didn't want to go out on a date with me. And even then he didn't seem to understand why I didn't always want other couples or our kids along on our 'dates'...

Sometimes I even wish that my WXH and the OW had stayed together long enough for her to see what he's REALLY like! She was hoping to marry him - it would have been the best revenge for him to start treating HER like a 'wife' LOL

Whatever, I do know that my next husband won't be such a loser!

Okay Larry, that describes me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I'm trying to trust the man who cheated on his wife, ME <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Does that mean I'm infatuated? Or....??

I think the 15 hours a week has been the most important to us. It is what we did when we were dating. It was spending time together doing things. Yeah, there was the hopeful goal of something more than a peck on the cheek at the end of the time spent, but the time spent was just as great back then. So, now we spend the time together, biking, hiking, fishing, driving through the country and looking for the wildlife (no not us <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />) . And then when the day is done, if we haven't completely worn ourselves out, we've been interacting, talking, laughing, touching, all day. (He gets the looks all day: can't ride a mountain bike in a mumu <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) A couple of hot showers, send the kids to bed and it's date time.

You have to push the life requirements away (mowing the yard, perfect house) and enjoy the moment. (and turn off the dam tv)

Fled

I'm all for keeping excitement going in marriage, especially with a view toward affair PROOFING that marriage. The idea of calling any future relationship I may have with my wife or any other woman an affair literally makes me feel sick. Maybe it is just the word, but it is what it is.

MM,

I read your post this morning before coming to work and thought to myself..."What a jerk!" Well, I had another term I used other than "jerk" but the idea is still the same.

It sounds to me that he had a wayward mindset for a long time, perhaps right from the start, even if he didn't act on it right away.

Mark