LHL68,

OK. You are the second person to take exception to the word itself. (I haven't been ignoring your concerns 2L, just trying to decide what I'm going to do about it.)

I can change the name of the thread and will probably do so eventually. My point in choosing the descriptive I picked was in an effort to point out that part of meeting each other's ENs on a regular basis is in fact doing those things that make an affair attractive to a potentially WS.

They include spending time with each other as if the other person matters and is important to us. Not just being in the same room, but turning off the stupid-tube, sharing what matters most to us, stroking not only each other physically, but each other's ego as well.

This IS what happens in an affair. There are specific techniques that are used by predator types of both sexes in order to seduce an unsuspecting prey. These are really the same things we did when we were courting that gave us the edge in the competition for the one who became our spouse. Though we did not do them with malicious intent at the time like those predators do routinely.

What I'm suggesting is that in order to affair proof our marriage, we actually need to do the things that an affair partner might do so that all of those things are coming from us rather than from that cute guy at the office or the waitress at the place the husband eats when he visits the Ranger factory in Flippin Arkansas.

It isn't only about SF, though to most men it would be at the top of their list. For women it might be Affection or Conversation, for men it could be Admiration as well. These are ENs that an affair partner seems to meet so easily when the WS is at a vulnerable threshold that if they are not being ever watchful, could result in their allowing those ENs to be met by someone not their spouse, ending in the disaster just about all of us here have experienced from one side or the other.

These are all things that have to be done at times other than working on recovery issues, doing communications exercises and talking about the relationship, because ENs are generally not being met by them.

But yeah, I'll probably change the name anyway when I figure out waht to call it...

Mark

How many people here who have been betrayed by their spouse found out that the WS did or was doing something that seemed completely out of character for them? How many WW's sent sexy pictures of themselves to a man they met online or in emails to someone from work during, usually at the start of, an affair?

Some of the justifications I have heard for such things have included, "Well he wasn't paying any attention to me and this other guy did X, Y and Z and it just seemed like I mattered to him...Blah-blah-blah" But I would bet that if any husband got those kinds of emails from their wife, his attention patterns would shift instantly. (If not, he might be a total moron) So why doesn't the potential WW do those kind of things for her husband?

Or how many WHs sent poems and love stories to the woman who they met at the client's office? When asked about "WHY" he would do those things his answer is often that his wife never showed any interest in him and this sweet young thing thought he was witty and intelligent...blah-blah-blah...

So why don't we do those things for each other after we're married. Most of us did that kind of thing when we were dating, but now that we're old married folk, we stopped doing the things that made us attractive to the one who became our spouse and then complain that they aren't doing the things we wished they would still do for us.

And I believe this cuts both ways. Neither of us keeps doing those things after we're married. The kids, the bills, the housework and the yard, all conspire to take that away from us. But I also think that it has to do with what we believe married people are supposed to act like. For most of us, that means we think being married is being like our parents. How many even considered the possibility of their parents having wild sex in the back of a van (not a minivan here)? I would venture that most never even thought of our parents as ever having sex. But they must have because otherwise, none of us would be here at all as immaculate conception is not the norm.

I think there are other reasons the flame dies down and even the glow is lost if it is not nurtured. But I'll save that for another time since I am supposed to be working right now.

How about an exercise? Husbands and wives each write down five things that would rate high on your list of what might be included in your ultimate romantic evening together. Ask your spouse to do the same. Swap lists and be prepared for the surprise of your life. I would bet, that in MOST cases, the lists would be so different that neither of you could even imagine such a list. Unless of course, Radical Honesty reigns at your house and all of these things have already been discussed in rebuilding your marriage through POJA.

No; you don't actually have to do the lists, but think about what might be on that list you would get and see if the things on that list aren't pretty much the lists of your spouse's top 5 ENs, though the order may be different.


Mark

Mark:

I once read somewhere that marriage is like bread - you have to get up and make (bake) it fresh again every day.

Dr, Phil says if you're bored it's most likely because YOU are boring!

Unfortunately, often there is the tendency to slip into complacency... to get maybe too comfortable... and then to be flattered and excited by somebody else instead of your spouse.

I have also noticed though (not just in my case but others too) that more often than not it is the more complacent spouse who strays. People naturally assume it's the betrayed spouse who has 'let themselves go' the most, but that's not what I've observed. Again from my own personal experience and what I've observed of others' marriages, while both partners may have relaxed, the betrayed spouse wasn't more lax than the straying spouse. Usually it is not until AFTER the straying spouse becomes involved with the OP that they suddenly start their self-improvement program... in order to seduce the OP - NOT in order to improve their marriage.

In my situation, I have never been more than about 10-15 pounds overweight in my life even though I had three c-sections, I've always looked very young for my age, and have always been very physically active. The OW that I met were in no way better looking than me. (But I could tell by the surprised and distressed looks on their faces when they saw me that it had been impLIED to them that they were more attractive than me.)

By contrast my WXH quit working out soon after we married and never started up again unless he was cheating. Several times he went over 200 pounds. He was a sofa spud.
And as far as working on the relationship went he woudl say: "If it ain't broke don't fix it" But he always claimed to the OW that our marriage was 'over', 'dead'...

My WXH was a serial adulterer and I know now that it really had nothing to do with me. When I was a career woman he was interested in women who wanted to stay home, when I was home with my babies he was interested in career women; When my house was spotless he cheated, when my house was messy with unpacked boxes (from NUMEROUS moves) he cheated; When I was 'too quiet' he cheated because I was 'boring', when I spoke up in defense of myself and my daughters he cheated because I was a '******'; When we had money problems he cheated because of that (even though we did NOT fight over money), when we were doing well financially he cheated because he felt he could afford to and that providing for me and our daughters entitled him to.

He once told a marriage counselor that we could not afford to date. I pointed out that he had taken a woman out on a business trip and he said that since the company paid for that it was OK. (BTW when I had a job involving lots of business trips I would take him out to a restaurant either the day I left or the day I got back plus whenever I was on a two week trip the company would have paid for him to fly out to join me for the weekend. In 4 years of 12 trips per year, he only chose to join me on a business trip 4 times.) The same marriage counselor then asked him how often could we afford to go on a date: once a week? Once a month? once a year? My WH answered that we could NEVER afford to go out! Of course there were some times when we did go out. But it was mostly just because it was a birthday/anniversary and/or he invited other people along.

As far as my WXH doing things with OW that were out-of-character, things he didn't do with me, here's a few:

I always wanted to go out on New Year's Eve but he refused, saying it was 'amateur's night' (inexperienced drinkers out drinkign and driving and therefore too dangerous). So I suggested we book a room in one of those hotels where they have a big bash right in the hotel so you don't have to drive afterwards. He said he wasn't interested. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that while working a contract job for a few months in another state he had done that with an OW for New Year's Eve AND they had done country line dancing! (Ever since then he's had an interest in country music which he couldn't stand previously...)

The major thing which my WXH did that was out of character for him, which he never did for me, was to sob like a big baby when he started to realize he was going to lose the OW. I was married to him 25 years, knew him 30 years, and the ONLY time I saw him cry was over an OW. It really hurt me to know that the one thing I wanted from him (not to make him cry - just to have him want me, need me, love me) he gave to her instead. He was a serial adulterer but I was hoping he might someday love me enough to change. But he didn't love me and I unfortunately hung around long enough to see that yes he COULD love a woman - but it was her instead of me.

What a little fool I was...

Looking back I can now see that my WXH purposely invested money, attention, effort outside the marirage towards OW and when he wanted to take a break form all that effort and/or he couldn't afford to date OW THEN he would settle back in at home with me. In hindsight I can see that he must have been wondering why I made such a fuss about his adulteries and expected him to wine and dine me instead of OW. It's the way he was raised and what he expected and felt entitled to. His mother shut up and put up - just sat at home unless she was out shopping - so he assumed that's what I'd accept too.

I will say that the last OW at least was as interested in spending a man's money as his mother was - so maybe she was more his type anyway? Although I seriously doubt she realized he would have expected her to put up with adultery in order to finance her trips to the mall.

FLAIR: synonyms ~> [color:"red"] chic, dash, panache, verve, oomph, pizazz[/color]

Why not have a "flair" with your spouse?

Ace

Ace,

I've been waiting for a whole day for you to show up and that's what you've got for me?

I"M KIDDING!!!!

At least early on I got everybody's attention.

660 views and 25 replies...

Oh no! It's contagious...

Mark

MM,

My wife would do things like call OM at 1 am. When I was home she'd be in bed by 8:45.

Some of the foggy stuff she did still makes me scratch my head and wonder.

She sent sexy pictures to him in emails. When I said that sounded like fun to me she replied "that's only about sex and there's more to life than sex."

Her comments about OM? "It wasn't about sex." And about the pictures, "We were just kind of getting to know each other..."

Que?

If I was wanted someone to get to know me I'd send the a picture of my Bass not my...Oh well...


I also think you are right about the less invested one being more likely to cheat. In fact Dr Harley's ideas on the Buyer, Renter, Freeloader concept pretty much predicts that this will be the case. It is the one who is fully invested that cares most about what happens to the marriage and therefore is willing to put the most into it. The ones who feel obligated only as long as they are getting what they want from it tend to put less into it to begin with.

Mark

Hi Mark......sorry you're expecting more of a post from me....but remember why I suggested this thread....because it's beyond my pea brain to comprehend.

In fact, what I thought about this topic this morning has changed now that I've triggered badly today. (Details on my Smiles and Trials 2 thread.)

So ya don't like 'flair' huh? I think adding more pizazz to your marriage could be something to appreciate. Flair! A 'flaired' skirt is something that flows and encircles freely. To flair out is to become adventurous of sorts.....I think. And then there's FLARE.....like a light shining in previous dark places.

"Have a FLARE with your WIFE or HUSBAND."

You asked what to call it. That's as far as I can go with suggestions tonight. What other ideas are on the shelf?

Ace

Ace,

I was kidding, yanno?

I actually think this is something you are experiencing first hand in your marriage. Mr Romance didn't become what or who he is now without an effort to do things for each other to make each other happy. And your new-found attraction and feelings for him come from the same efforts being done by him toward you.

My whole point is that it is possible to have, at least from time to time, within a marriage, periods that at least approach that first blush of attraction we felt when we first began. But in order for that to happen, we have to do those things we once did. The "magic" was really only chemicals acting on the brain that sent our bodies into a tailspin and caused our heart to beat faster and our breath to become short.

I think when an affair starts the WS feels that excitement all over again and can't even remember those early days of feeling the same way toward their spouse. So why not do those things together instead and make an effort to prevent the unfulfilled need that allows resentment to build into entitlement?

Something I have tried to get my wife to do is to write down a brief description of what she considers our most memorable times together, when she actually felt the rush of romance and attraction. I would then recreate or create a new experience based on those times of the past. What I would suspect would be that there would be at least a common thread that would be present in all of those things. The idea actually comes from Family Life Today (Dennis and Barbara Rainey) and their "Romantic Tips for Him" section.

Of course I could make my list and she could reciprocate if she so chose, but what I would really want from the exercise would be to gain better understanding of what SHE considers romantic and memorable, with an eye toward doing more of those things and less of the hit or miss tactics that seem to prevail most of the time.


One thing that I am certain of is that the most memorable times together for both of us would include time spent together without the kids, the dog, the horse or the family and friends that so often seem omnipresent. I don't even mean we were totally alone, only that we were FOCUSSED on each other rather than what was going on around us.

I'm talking about making deposits here! Doing things that fill ENs is what matters most of all in keeping the romance and excitement alive. And not everything has to lead to SF, though it is more likely when there is a build up of good feelings and closeness throughout the day rather than trying to find the right "switch" to turn on as we both tumble into bed. The buttons that have to get pushed need to get pushed repeatedly over time and in the right order for them to have the effect we look for.

Most men have an "easy button" just like Staples. When it gets pushed, we are ready for anything our wife wants to do, as long as it ends in SF for us. But the cumulative effect of lightly touching that button all day can make the end better than just mashing it after the TV is switched off.

And I KNOW that there are combinations of buttons that need to be pressed in the right sequence for my wife to really be happy with me and the time we spent together. There are in fact many combinations that can do that, but the key is having the time to push all those buttons.

Then I have to decide that I will use the time to actually push those buttons. Too often after marriage, we settle rather than doing it the way we know it should be done. We won the trophy and now it can just sit on the shelf and wait for the day we want to pick it up and do something with it.

Mark

I said on the Vacation Thread that I was outie...but I lied. Gotta respond to at last one more:


Yeah...I knew:


You're right...I'm blushing now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> and I'm inspired and have something to say....but no time. Will later...I promise.

Ace

Ace,

Spell checkers are great, but you have to use them for them to be any good.

Sort of like MB concepts, ya think?

Mark

In looking back at all the things WH said OW did for him that made him want her, I see that she didn't do anything for him that I wasn't already doing.

I've always cut out the "Love is..." cartoon in the paper & kept them. I would pick one that matched what I wanted to say or the occasion, glue it to a small card & write something in it for him. I would put them in his suitcase, if he was going out of town. I would put them in his lunch, leave them on his dresser for him to find, leave them in his car, etc. All of them telling him how much I loved him, admired him & wanted him. Some were even downright sexy. I touched him as much as he would let me. I showed him as much affection as he would allow. He pushed me away more times than I can count. He's never been denied SF by me, but I've been denied SF by him, also more times than I can count. I always told him thank you for everything little thing he did for me, even if it was just getting a dish out of the cabinet or picking up something for me at home or the store. I tried in every way to show him affection & love.

As he got more stressed out from work & closer to the age of 45, he began to push me away more & more. Nothing I did mattered & he rejected me at every turn. And yet, I was told I did none of those things for him but she did.

Now, when I finally thought she was gone for good & I get a vmail about her & he goes off the deep end. Losing his job over his anger at her for moving on with her life. Suddenly realizing that he still loves her because of finding out she was with someone else. Jealous of another man who has her attention. And yet admitting to me that even though he doesn't know in what way he loves me, he can't let me go & find a life without him.

I've tried to do those things for him again since he's been home. And I know because of withdrawal that he doesn't notice. But I keep trying, even though I'm still being pushed away.

I would give anything for my WH to show me the affection he did the first 10 or 12 years we were married. I miss the little smiles, the sexy whispers in my ear, the innuendos he would drop in a conversation. I miss his picking up on the same from me.

At this point, I don't know what needs I didn't meet. The one I know of for sure, I've worked hard on meeting but he tells me it's too late. He won't tell me anything else. And it appears he can't stay away from her. Exposure hasn't ended it, losing his job isn't ending it, I don't know what will.

But you betcha, I would gladly do all that for him daily if he would just stop telling me to stop doing those things & stop getting angry when I do.

How do you deal with something like that??

Meremortal, LA24Y, Mark.....I had a long post I copied to try to find this quote on a previous page....but I accidentally lost it when I copied this post.

No time to recreate it...yeah, I know, I should have used a word doc....next time.

I can identify with both of your scenarios in my 32 years of living in detachment, rejection, and ambivous oblivion...if there is such a state? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It all changed when my H had an affair and got caught 3 times physically contacting OW and the 4th emotionally wishing he could contact her.

My time is gone now, so I will recreate my post later in a Word doc and post it then. (Yeah....my H became the man of my dreams ~~~~> but he was dreaming about OW.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Mark, if you're reading over your "MIA" weekend....this is my best effort at helping entitle this thread. If it doesn't work for you, I may even start a new one myself as you've now inspired me to flare up my M even more than it is now!

Ace

P.S. RIF says he likes it, too.