My XH is acting fishy.

He invited me to spend the day with him and his brother and wife who were here on holiday. We have NEVER spent a day together in the last 2 years. It actually was a really lovely day. Made me realise I'm SO OVER HIM. But, it still did affect me and I've been having bad dreams the last 3 or 4 nights. Him rejecting me all over again etc etc.


Anyway, I was telling him I'll probably be moving into my own place soon (out of my parents finally!). He said well actually, we should talk...because I've been thinking of buying a place. If you wanted to, you could invest in it with me?'. I just said 'oh...right....ok' (the ok was not 'yes').

So, what's with the invite to spend the day with him (picked us up (our daughter and I), went ice-skating with our little girl, finished off with a bbq with his bro and sis-in-law and a few friends, ate Krispy Kreme's, asked me if I remember us buying a box of them and him eating the lot (I didn't - and that felt good...hee hee!...um...did we? it was soooo long ago...life's moved on so much since then....I don't think about those things anymore...(didn't really say all that but I hope my lack of a memory he clearly still recalled sent that signal anyway) then drove us home) and the talk about investing together?

(I got the loveliest compliment by his brother - 'look at you...how can he NOT want to be with you?' - boy, did that put me on cloud nine).

Any thoughts as to what his movitation and intentions could be?

I checked your post history and it appears his affair ended on or around June 17, 2007. I figure a few weeks of closure contact might have occurred so he is 3 to 4 months through withdrawal from a 2.5 year affair.

By Christmas he'll likely be thinking absolutely clearly and begging you for another chance or at least apologizing for his actions.

Doesn't look like reconciliation is on your mind (however..you have gone to great lengths to attempt to convince us and/or yourself of this...which MAY indicate deeper thoughts/discussion are going about on this) but his repentence would be nice and SHOULD be step one to you even hanging around with him all friendly like.

Keep your guard up. This man hurts people and he'll do it again if given the chance. Only true and complete repentence can save HIM. Do not accept crumbs. He may just take them, goggle them up and not ever set aside his pride to truly repent.

Mr. Wondering

Mr Wondering, you are truly insightful. You'd think I'd be a little more that way by now - having been at this awful game for a few years. There has been a few light-hearted sorry's over the last few years - but I know no true deep repentence just yet...although it may be on the way.

I am forced to admit now that yes, there is somewhat of an attempt to convince myself and all around me that I am truly 'over him'. I would like to think I am. But the dreams and a few tears that have been shed the last few days since spending that time together are probably indications I'm not as far along as I'd like to believe I am. He hurt me very deeply and of course it would be lovely to hear that all the hurtful things he has said weren't really true. But having said that, it would only be a miracle of God that would allow me to ever truly open my heart to him again.

Hi aNN,

I second Mr.W's post... also, I would definitely NOT go into any business/financial transactions with your ex... if he is truly repentant, then you can see where that takes you and make a decision later... but don't get sucked into buying ANYTHING with him... The last thing that you need is to be tied to him financially.

Semper Fi,

RIF

If you're not sure...absolutely sure...then you need distance for clarity.

That's what Plan B is about.

Giving him crumbs whilst opening yourself up to the continued pain as he shucks and jives his way through withdrawal FROM HER...is merely cushioning his fall.

You'll be healthier away from him.

He'll...hopefully...get to repentence a lot quicker without you to lean on....assisting him through it.

TODAY...he is NOT your friend.

There is a price...a hefty price...before YOU should be allowing him into your yard. Picture a yard with a chain link fence...with razors or barb wire on top (the fence being YOUR boundary)...YOU decide who you will open the gate for, when they can come in and what the cost of admission is.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- I know this is likely easier said than done as YOU have failed to withdraw from him completely yourself. There is a part of you as well...a hurting part (not to mention the vindictive angry part that wants revenge)...that really wants some crumbs too. What's really in this continued torture for you??? More tears??? More fears??? More stress???

I agree with the advice given and I'm wondering WHY you would even agree to spend the day with him - MINUS a complete and sustained indication of apology and repentance from him?!?

Trust me on this one: He is not going to respect or value you if you yourself place such a low admittance fee on him getting back into your life. I eventually came to the conclusion (after several such 'friendship' expectations from my WXH) that he was just trying to see how much he could get me back into his life with the LEAST effort and reformation from him. Such an assumption from him that he can be back in your life, even 'just' as friends, is insulting. Sooner or later you realize that he's not really repentant - just trying to use you to get his own needs met while he licks his wounds from the break-up of the adulterous affair.

Buying ANYTHING with him, let alone a house, is ludicrous AND an indication of just how desparate, needy, naive, 'forgiving', 'forgetful' he presumes you are!

My WXH wanted me and my daughters to move in with him after the OW dumped him... BUT he did NOT want to go to counseling to repair any of the damage he'd done or to remarry! AND he didn't want his family to know! Let me tell you that 'offer' from him did nothing but anger me. And even though at the time the landlord had started eviction procedures, and I was leaving for my father's funeral in another state, not knowing where my daughters and I would be living because my father had said we could come stay at his home... I still was not feeling desparate enough to take my WXH up on his offer!

I also had boundary problems with my WXH while he was still involved with the OW: He would not only 'invite' me to go along on his visitation days with our daughters - he EXPECTED me to go along AND demanded access to my home. He felt ENTITLED to come over anytime he wanted to eat dinner with us, watch videos, enjoy holiday celebrations, etc.! To me it sounds as if your WXH has similar delusions.

By accepting his invitation you have fueled his sense of entitlement, his false hopes that he can easily slip back into your life minus having to show any real remorse. He has made no proclamations of regret, no promises of reform, no committment... yet he feels it's OK to try to talk you into buying a home together?!?!?

OK, here is one more example of something my WXH did that sounds like the same thing your WXH may be up to: I was planning on saving up enough money to move into a rent-to-own home. Youngest daughter told WXH about plans and he 'offered' to go look at some of the homes available (I was living in another state and could only view the homes online). Well, WXH had filed a joint tax return (without my permission) so he was getting a large refund (instead of having to pay a large tax debt if he had filed by himself). When I found out he had done that (again - he's done that three years in a row now - I am taking measures to ensure he does NOT try that again) I was irate! So he said he'd put the whole refund down on the rent-to-own home. Well, I was literally driving back across country to sign the papers on the rent-to-own home, he had gone to look at some of them but I said I wanted to look at the home myself before signing any papers, when WXH put the tax refund money plus the money he would have given me for support payment for the next month down on the home AND he put the home in HIS NAME!!!!! Then he told me not to worry because in FIVE YEARS when it was time to get the mortgage and purchase the home he would sign it over to me for $1. I refused this 'offer' of course and then HE became infuriated with me (because "what does it matter whose name the house is in"... "you're just being unreasonable"..."see I try to do something nice for you but your just a b*****") I informed him I would just tell the rent-to-own agency that I was still looking for a rent-to-own home and I would move into a different house and he could keep this one. He angrily replied that "WE" could not afford to rent/buy the two homes. I reminded him that there wasn't a "WE" anymore and that he could not dictate to me where I lived, could not stop me from renting/buying my OWN home and paying for it with the court ordered support and maintenance money he had to pay me. He did NOT like my asserting myself the least bit, even said "if it wasn't for the kids I would have put a bullet in your brain years ago". (So in five years when the purchase option came up, if I had allowed him to dump the support and maintenance money I was entitled to into a home under HIS name alone, and the kids are all grown and moved away, Id' be believing he would then sign the home over to me for what reason?) Basically he felt ENTITLED to still control me AND 'his' money that the court ordered him to pay in support/maintenance. He really believed I was going to be stupid enough to go along with it! Actually what he believed is that I would still be so in love with him, still so hoping to get back together with him, that I would see this 'offer' of his as a positive sign, that I would be so encouraged by his reference to "WE" that I would just let him bull-doze right over my rights and steal my support money to purchase a home for himself. Also, when I told him I didn't want to live in my XH's house because it would be awkward when I date and remarry he said I was "too old for that".

It sounds to me as if your WXH wants to somehow keep you tied to him without his having to actually make a new committment to him and/or he wants to weasel his way out of having to hand over to you whatever support/alimony he owes you without somehow turning it into something he maintains control/ownership of. Did he mention where the money for the down payment and house payments would come from? My bet is he is thinking he can channel YOUR support money into it... Actually I'm a bit surprised that somebody besides my WXH came up with the same scheme. I mean I know that WS's all sound pretty much the same with their fog-babble but I had not yet heard of another WH saying some of the extremely delusional stuff my WXH tried.

As they say: BUYER BEWARE!!!

Also, another side-effect of my WXH's delusional views was that his thinking infected two out of three daughters' thinking regarding who had authority in the home. For a while after WXH tried to seize control of my support money and home I heard back-talk from my daughters about how they didn't have to obey me because I was living in their DAD's HOUSE, being paid for with their DAD's money!!!

I guess WXH and daughters thought of me sort of like a live-in housekeeper, nanny, tutor (I homeschool), paid for by their father? They thought I was an emplyee and their father was my boss!!! LOL I informed them that he would have to pay a LOT more than room and board to hire a maid, nanny and tutor! PLUS even if I made my kids do all the housework instead of doing it myself, went to work (which I have now), and stopped homeschooling them, their father would STILL have to pay me the support/alimony unless he went back to court and asked for a change. It helped my daughters to realize that the things I do for them are something that nobody is paying me to do, that I don't have to do, that I am doing them because I love them.

WXH did sign the home over to me (after a couple of months waiting to see if I'd "come around") and I did assert to my daughters that the money their father HAD to pay the money to me because it WAS my money that I was entitled to, that's WHY it was court ordered. Daughters tried rebellion for a while and even went to move in with their dad a couple of times... For now they are acknowledging my authority more and rebelling less...

He wants to get back with you without any consequence of his affair. His affair ended and he's lonely now. He misses spending time with his daughter. He may regret divorcing you, but he isn't repentant for it. I would continue to plan B him because he will try and suck you back in. Even if you did get back together in the future it would be better to have stayed in plan B and let him repent and work to get you back.

Ok, you are right…I have failed to withdraw completely from him. I thought I had – no, I DID for a little while…but I slipped. How do I stop this happening? How do I keep strong? It’s not in my nature – some I guess would call me weak – but I don’t think that’s entirely true. I’m gentle to a fault and prefer to sweep things under the carpet – maybe that is just weak.

Meremortal, ok, all honesty – this is the reason I decided to spend the day with him. I wanted to show him what he was missing out on. I wanted him to see the real me that has emerged in the last 2 years without him. I wanted the chance for revenge – I wanted to make him suffer – to go home to his empty flat and make him think ‘I’ve just spent the day with my x-wife and my daughter and we had so much fun. Now I’m here alone – what have I done?’. That’s why I spent the day with him. Waste of time huh.

He and OW are still ‘friends’ through facebook. The good thing though is that I found out it was him who ended their relationship, not her. He told my sister-in-law he realised our daughter came first so he told OW to go back to her country, which she did (I have total proof).



I absolutely howled at this! That is exactly what he said! He would use my child maintenance to put towards the payments. Do you really think he could be that manipulative or his he just plain stupid? Personally I don’t think he’d even see how manipulative that was. Maybe I am just so naive!!

Since we’re divorced, isn’t plan B too late – or are there principals in Plan B that can still be used to protect myself?

One more question: xh’s brother is getting married in the UK next summer (which is where all xh’s family live). Because our daughter has been asked to be flower girl and because I mentioned to his brother’s fiancé that it would be lovely to be at the wedding, it’s kind of been agreed that we’ll go. The thing is I really don’t want to. I was told by my Mum however that I should. She said since xh has been paying more maintenance than he needs to (a good extra third a month – which is quite a lot) and has placed no demands on his daughter (I’ve not agreed to overnights yet (he was missing from her life for 7 months)) I could be starting big problems between us if I turn around and tell him we aren’t coming. He desperately wants his parents to see their grand-child. The thought of going back to the country where we lived together and where he started the affair etc, having to face his family (his Mother is psychotic and has been a witch to me) and all our old friends etc turns my stomach. I’ve got good friends to stay with, so will not be staying with him or near him in any way – am I doing the right thing by going?

"I absolutely howled at this! That is exactly what he said! He would use my child maintenance to put towards the payments. Do you really think he could be that manipulative or his he just plain stupid? Personally I don’t think he’d even see how manipulative that was. Maybe I am just so naive!!"

IMHO he's not being stupid but sly, it is you that he is hoping will be stupid enough to go along with his scheme.

Really, I thought my WXH was the ONLY person on the planet who would come up with such a ludicrous scheme in an attempt to control his BXW and the support money! Maybe it's becoming a trend with WXH's?

I think it's partly because of boundary issues (WH wanted HIS freedom but never really planned on letting BW start a new life without him and possibly even with a new man). It's the old double standard. WXH can't quite accept the fact that his BXW gets to choose where she will live now and even with whom.

I think it's also partly because of WXH regrets, missing the BXW and children, wanting to move back home BUT not quite badly enough to apologize, accept responsibility, make a committment... Cowardly IMHO.

And last but not least I think it's because the WXH isn't happy with how much his leaving home, splitting the family into two households, is COSTING him. MANY WXH's resent having to pay court ordered support and alimony. So it would be a way for them to not really relinquish that money to the BXW, by dumping it all into a house which they get to live in and maybe even have their name on the title of. SNEAKY... And absolutely absurd! Really I don't know which is more absurd: that they would actually have the arrogance to approach the BXW with this scheme OR that they actually believe the BXW might be desparate, love-sick, needy, naive, whatever... enough to agree to it!!!

And even though your WXH is currently giving you some extra $ along with the regular support payments, I wouldn't read anything positive or encouraging into that. My WXH did that sometimes too, but sooner or later he would reveal his motive (what in his mind he tought he was 'buying' from me) and when I would decline he would become enraged and stop giving the extra $. He may be just trying to soften you up enough to get you to allow him to divert your support money into a place for him to live cheaper and more comfortably. And even when I would warn my WXH that my acceptance of any extras was NO STRINGS ATTACHED, he would still have some sort of agenda and expectations. Nowadays I make sure to NOT tell him when/if I need any extra money for anything like auto repairs, overdue bills, or the washing machine broke again. In fact I don't contact him period about anything.

What did your family and friends think of his 'offer' (um scheme to steal your support money)?

run far and fast from this man. you are divorced for a very good reason...don't mess with a good thing. you should continue on in your life and NEVER give any thought to returning to him. he is trying to play you! Do not buy it.

"Since we’re divorced, isn’t plan B too late – or are there principals in Plan B that can still be used to protect myself?"

The principles of Plan B definitely should be continued in order to protect yourself from the WX's arrogance, abuse, attempts to control, etc. And as long as there is no remorse and reform demonstrated I don't see any logical reason to end Plan B. Also, as long as there is any chance you might get sucked into false hope, false recovery, then Plan B should be continued to protect yourself.

If the conditions for reconciliation set forth in Plan B haven't been met then I don't see any reason why Plan B shouldn't continue. The way I see it unless the WX met those conditions I wouldn't even want to be friends with them. If he doesn't care enough about me and our daughters to say and do the right thing, if the OW, saving face, his ego, his sense of entitlement, whatever, STILL means more to him than me and our daughters then he lacks what I would want in a friendship anyway. In fact when/if my WXH starts saying and doing what he SHOULD have done years ago, there's absolutely NO guarantee I would even want him back now anyway, even as just a friend! He should say and do those things anyway without any expectation that I will then be willing to reconcile or even be his friend BECAUSE it's what a man of integrity would do - and for no other reason.

In my case I may have to be in a sort of Plan B for the rest of my life in regards to WXH. Because I don't think he will EVER really get it that what he's done is immoral, caused a lot of harm to me and our daughters, and can't simply be overlooked as if nothing happened. I simply don't have friendships with people who treat me and my daughters that way.

I figure I may have to see WXH at daughters' weddings, and the rare times daughters' have visitation with him and come to pick them up/drop them off. It helps a LOT that WXH lives in another state now and daughters are so busy with their own lives, activities, friends that they rarely go visit him. I don't talk to him on the phone at all anymore. In fact I don't even have his new phone number in my cell phone. I don't have his current e-mail address either. (He told daughters to tell me to get rid of my tracfone and he would give me a razor phone and put me on his cell phone bill... I told daughters to tell him "NO"!)

My WXH basically DEMANDED all during his adultery with OW that I HAD to still be 'friends' with him and that he had some sort of right to access to me and my home. So because of his severe boundary delusions I wouldn't want to attempt being friends with him. It's MUCH easier for me to just not have contact with him than to have to constantly assert sane boundaries in response to his repeated attemtps to invade and control.

As far as MB principles go I don't remember seeing any advice about how long to stay in Plan B if the divorce is already over and there is no longer any hope for reconciliation. But I don't really see any reason for ending Plan B with a resistantly unrepentant WX, especially if they presume they are in a position to still expect ANYthing from the BXS.

I figure if they won't or can't acknowledge that any friendship given is an undeserved gift, given by grace, if they in no way will or can appreciate it, then why bother with them. It's that sense of ENTITLEMENT that they are infected with that prevents any REAL friendship from being possible.

Besides, I've seen too much evidence of gloating when it comes to trying to be nice to the WX. Again they don't really appreciate it and just translate it into presuming the BS must be a loser and desparate and/or becoming even more pompous in their appraisal of themselves. IMHO it just feeds the already huge delusion the WX has that they can somehow win their BS back minus any effort whatsoever and/or have one-way access to the BX minus any accountability or commitment from them.

Also, I think WX's are much more concerned about saving face when it comes to their friends, relatives, and coworkers than about repairing and restoring the relationship with the BS and children. IF they can weasel their way back into the family they destroyed WITHOUT appearing less cocky and cool in the eyes of those who encouraged their adultery, they will worm their way back into your good graces. BUT if it means they have to admit they were wrong, distance themselves from their adultery cheerleaders, defend you... forget it.

I know some WX's, including mine, have themselves convinced that sooner or later the BS will 'come around' and allow them back into their lives MINUS any admission of wrong-doing, let alone reformation and recompense. In fact I don't think my WXH will EVER realize that he's even lost me, will continue to believe I will eventually 'come around' UNLESS I marry another man.

And just in case I DO marry a new man I most certainly do NOT want my new husband to have the slightest worry whatsoever that I am in contact with my WXH. So it's best to just keep all involvement with the WXH as nonexistant as possible. I'm even thinking of removing all photos of the WXH from my home or at least packing them away for the daughters to take with them when they move out.

I personally would not go to the wedding. Maybe allow your daughter to go without you but if your WXH has never taken responsibility for his adultery and the resultant divorce then it's a pretty sure bet your going to his family's wedding will just give him something to gloat about and will be humiliating for you.

IMHO one of the very few benefits of the divorce is I no longer have to see the X-laws.