Siobhan...I can't tell from your posts if you are still having an affair or not. If you have stopped and are working towards reclaiming your character and integrity, good for you. Your M sounds like it has big issues and divorce might be the best option...I really don't know. But, what I do know with an absolute certainty is that IF you are still involved in your affair...you are choosing to be a wh0re for your OM. That is something that you will be judged for by your child...and rightfully so. making a mistake and changing it is human nature...we all fall at times. But KNOWING that what you are doing is wrong...having your affair and then continuing to do it, speaks volumes about you as a person/partner/mother. You would, IMO, be unfit for all three roles...especially mother.
I truly hope that you have ended your adulterous "relationship" and are working on bettering yourself. Wouldn't you say "it's about time.."

Well... If any of you kind people had any curiosity about how things are going... On Thanksgiving I discovered in an explicit and detailed fashion that my husband has been having his own affair with a coworker. She is single, wants him as her boyfriend - and I have met her... So, I confronted him, and both our stuff is all out on table now. Some good conversations between my husband and I have ensued, which has been relieving. We have both acknowledged that by stubbornly refusing to meet one another's needs and "keeping score" within the marriage we set this disaster up to happen.

The interesting thing is that my first instinct is to do all I can to save our marriage. He isn't sure. He wants to move out, I don't really want him to. He isn't considering removing himself from his daily interactions with his A partner. When both spouses are wayward, it sure gets confusing! Not sure what is going to happen, but I do know I want to be with him if it is at all possible. He is willing to go to counseling... So that is a good thing.

You all were so right. No matter how this turns out, disclosure and honesty is the only way to get anywhere. Thank you.

Sio,

And now the REAL learning begins. I am sorry for this outcome, and glad for it at the same time. I suspect you feel the same way. May I suggest that you try and save this marriage if only so that you will learn from the effort it takes. I know this sounds pretty detached, and coming from someone who is NOT in your situation it is detached...sort of.

You have been given a huge opportunity to really learn about relationships, marriage, commitments, what loving means as opposed to "feeling in love", and where your compass and goals in life are really leading you. I promise you that I don't know the outcome of this effort other than you current marriage OR you next relationship and marriage will be much the better for it, AND you will see many things in a far different light than you did when you embarked on this marriage.

Hang in there and see where honesty with your H leads your marriage, and where honesty with yourself guides you.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you JL. I really appreciate your response. Now I just have to sort out what to do, exactly. Since we are both guilty I am a little confused on where to go from here. Does he have to leave his job and have NC with his A partner for our marriage to have a chance? Do I need to do the same? I don't like that he sees her, but I don't personally feel I can't reconcile with him unless he leaves his job... But that is probably because I don't want to have to follow through with NC either (though the A is over on my end I do still work occasionally with this person in a group setting). My husband has said he doesn't want me to quit either. Maybe we are both too fogged in the head to see clearly. It hasn't been long since disclosure, yet.

My husband really is wired very differently than most men, I think. To him sexual betrayal is not good, but not the worst thing either. He is not really upset with me. Of course, he was sexually abused and is bisexual and has always been very emotionally non-intimate about the act itself. Which I used as one of the rationalizations to lie to myself so I could stomach what I did.

He does think the adultery is obviously a sign that we have big problems. What I am getting from him right now is that he feels there is something profoundly amiss with our relationship dynamic (we cheated on each other once before, very early on in our dating relationship. Now 5 years later it happens again. Neither of us has ever cheated in prior relationships so I definitely see his point). But, he thinks we need to separate and work on ourselves and get distance from the poisoned patterns we clearly have in place. I... don't want to separate. But I am not sure what is right in this case. He is an alcoholic on top of all this, so maybe just for that issue alone, a separation is not a bad thing.

Last thing... Should we ever tell our 3 year old son what has happened? If so when or how?

Sio,

Radical honesty is for your partner. Your son probably will not gain much from learning about all of this, until he is much older and dealing with relationships himself. At that point, your recovery could show him that tough situations can be made better, bad decisions can be overcome, and focus on a relationship is worthwhile. Until then don't worry about it.

Now about No Contact. Get serious, no contact is to help you BOTH recover your feelings for one another, and to protect yourselves and your partner from this happening again, if things get a bit rough. I know this is early, but you will see the wisdom of doing this as you two recover.

Now about separation. What do you think it will provide you that working together will not. What you both have to understand that your choice in coping mechanisms is bad. You don't seek solutions to YOUR problems in other people. You look within, and then you work with the person closest to you...your spouse. You both need to learn this, and frankly an honest discussion of how your choice in coping mechanisms has gotten you in trouble before and now, should be very useful.

Remember recovery is not about blame, or guilt, it is about assessment and learning. You cannot assess if you don't discuss and analyze. You cannot learn if you don't try things and see how they work. You won't progress in your marriage unless you two plan together to make it a marriage you BOTH enjoy.

Yes, both of you having an affair does complicate things, but in reality from my point of view you are both Wayward spouses, so I will address your issues from that point of view. You two might want to agree that you will work either from the betrayed or the wayward point of view. I suspect some consistency here will help you both. Perhaps not, but time will tell.

I would like to suggest that given the nature of this situation a sit down with your H to discuss marriage would be a good idea. What to discuss??? You might ask. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Me, I would suggest that you two discuss what the IDEAL marriage would be for yourselves. What the goals of an IDEAL marriage would be, not just to stay together, but really what you would need to be happy in the marriage.

Then think about what each of you have said, and it may be the same thing only said in different words, and come back and see if you can tell him what you think you heard him say about his vision, and have him do the same. Now this is not a pop quiz. So decide if this topic of discussion is OK with the both of you then set a time to have the discussion. Don't just launch into it, but I might suggest even have notes to yourself. This is not about what wasn't there, but what you and he would really like to have in a marriage.

Just thoughts I hope they are of some help.

God Bless,

JL

"I know I have been in an abusive situation with my husband. I wanted to stick it out for our child and for the ideal of a family that I held in my mind but things have only gotten worse and worse."

An abusive situation doesn't get better simply because you stick around. And keeping a child in an abusive situation is probably one of the worst things that could be done for a child. Your WH is going to need a LOT of IC to overcome his past, plus the two of you will need MC to learn how to make your marriage into a healthy marriage, THEN it will be a safe place to raise your son.

"My father in law once told my husband he himself had an affair and never told his wife. They are still married after almost 40 years and she has still never found out."

Well, this is part of your WH's problem. He had a shady role model who assured him that cheating is OK and will not hurt a marirage.

"This confuses me somewhat, since they seem to be very solid and quite happy together."

Regardless of how they 'seem' the fact is they have a fake marriage, with your FIL in effect using your MIL, and emotionally abusing her, without her even being aware of it. This sort of sick role modeling is part of your WH's problem. Does your WH think it is OK for his mother to be treated this way? That might explain part of his problem with being so emotionally dismissive with you! Part of what you have observed in your husband is how an unhealthy marriage (even if things 'seem' OK) can warp the thinking and bahavior of the child! In order to keep thinking that it is OK for his father to treat his mother like some sort of concubine your husband has to treat you with disrespect, as if you aren't a real wife either. IMHO some males have a real problem treating their own wife better than they saw their mother treated. But for some odd reason instead of objecting to how they saw their mother treated, they just make sure their wife doesn't get better treatment. I guess they believe that to treat their own wife with respect it would somehow dishonor their parents? Wierdness IMHO.

I think you should end your adultery with the OM ASAP.

Because your husband's problems are so severe I think you need to take lots of extra precautions in your marital recovery. Again, he is going to need IC to deal with his own issues from his past.

Thanks for all the insights, JL and MM. It is a lot to think about. Today is hard. When my husband went to work this morning I was sad. I know he will be working with OW. He told me he told her to stop texting him after I discovered his A over the weekend. I believe him. But it is still wierd... What a mess.

Just for the record, my A is over. Since I don't work with OM daily and never one on one, and because he is equally accepting of the fact that what we did was unhealthy and wrong for both of us, it makes it easier to resist. There is no comfort for me to find there so I am not tempted.

I am just at a low point today. It does seem like the issues are so huge, going way beyond just the A's, that hope is scarce. I don't want to damage my son any more than has been done. He deserves so much better.

My husband went to some counseling about a year into our marriage, after I asked him to. This was in reaction to the disclosure of his childhood sexual abuse. I suspect my husband either consciously or subconsciously told the therapist the "right things" because according to my husband the therapist thought he was doing pretty well. Okay, how is having no sexual interest in your wife, abandoning her (literally at times), drinking to oblivion, having no emotional connections to people, doing pretty well? My husband is a highly charismatic and successful salesman, and he knows how to talk.

So there seem to be many dimensions to this. I thought for awhile maybe he was really gay, but after finding out his A is another woman, it leads me to believe it is more that the shameful, taboo, non emotionally involved sex is really the draw. This is reinforced by the fact that my H has had a much greater desire for sex with me since the A's came out and he is planning to leave. He has at times in our marriage expressed that the thought of me being with someone else turns him on. In fact at one point when I begged him to please try to invest emotionally and sexually in our marriage (this was before my A), he told me to go ahead and have an A.

Well he just called me to invite me to a sporting event tonight. He also told me he is taking the OW to lunch right now to explain to her that it is over and that he is interested in working on his marriage. When we talked about his A he told me that he was going to end it because she was getting too attached - and of course that he felt bad about hurting me...

I am avoiding my friends. They know something is wrong but I can't bring myself to tell them all of this. I don't know what to do on that score, either.

Just talked to my husband. He and OW had an hour and a half lunch. She is very disappointed that he is not going to pursue a relationship with her. He told her I know about the A and that though he is not sure if it is possible, if there is any hope to be happy in his marriage he wants to save it. He also thanked her for helping him to see that he deserves to be happy. The thing that really bothered me about the way he related their exchange and the way he is talking about it is that he seems to feel a real obligation and guilt toward her for "using" her as he did, for sex when she was interested in a romantic relationship. But since he never lied to her about being married I am sorry, but I have little sympathy for her. What was she thinking? Lol. Married men are not hot prospects.

I am curious what your thoughts would be on this: My H's company Christmas party is coming up and naturally she will be there. Do I go and put up with the awkwardness of being in the same room with her? Or do I go to a concert with friends and try to have some fun? My husband is planning to go either with or without me at this point.

Sio:

YOU Need to go to that Christmas Party.

No ifs, ands or BUTS.

And WH cannot go alone.

You will not see him until the next morning or afternoon otherwise.

Because OW WILL be there, and since she's alone....!

What's the worst thing that can happen?

OW screams that she was sleeping with your H?

Who looks stupid then?

And yes, your WH will have to leave his job.

Just like you will have to as well.

But, your WH will *always* have to have 1.5 hours lunches to *explain* *why* he is returning to you.

And the child sexual abuse?

Could be alot of the reasons why he drinks himself silly, has a confused sexual identity, and can't really face responsibility.

ALL of his boundaries have been violated early. Makes it REAL hard to establish them later....

And if he is a successful salesman, he's been selling himself since he was a kid. And MOST therapists wouldn't have a clue how to handle him. A REAL therapist would have talked WITH you. AND cross-checked the H.

LG

Once again, more insights and things to think about. Especially those last few lines LG. I have thought along those same lines, that he has been selling himself to everyone his whole life. I know a lot of childhood sexual abuse survivors develop some pretty extreme self protective mechanisms and that seems to be one of his. It is almost like he has a schism personality wise within himself that not even he is really aware of. I don't think he is calculating. I really think that is all he knows.

The boundaries line hit home too. It does explain so much. If his boundaries were violated so early on, of course he has trouble with them in himself and with others.

I guess it comes back again to the fact that this is a much bigger project than just recovering from the A's. I know we are going to need some intensive professional help. Help for him to deal with his issues, help for us to try to recover our marriage, and help for me to explore such things as why I'd dive into a relationship with someone with the huge issues he has, in the first place. The question will be whether he will be capable of really getting to the nitty gritty with the right therapist. Thus far he feels therapy hasn't done anything for him and he is right.

Sigh... I do know he is telling me the truth about his interaction yesterday with the OW. Last night he was getting texts from her and I asked to see them. She is furious. Spewing expletives and sounding pretty manipulative, but clearly he told her it is over. He told me she was saying to him yesterday "Wouldn't your SON want you to be happy?" I wanted to brain her. How dare she use our son to make her play for my husband?? But I expect NO holds barred from her. Her texts were nuts. Stuff like "I can't believe you are doing this when I am the one who has been there for you, not HER". I wanted to laugh at how clueless she is. She is single, never been married, no kids. She has no concept of the investment he and I have made in each other. And if she is still pursuing him even knowing that I know of their A and despite him telling her he wants to work on his marriage, then she clearly has NO respect for morality, marriage, our child, OR him. I am absolutely going to go to that Christmas party! No WAY I will leave him with her for a second! Not that my situation is any better from a moral standpoint, but at least my former A partner is in NO way trying to continue a relationship with me. Less to have to fight off...

I have been reading about exposure and I am wondering... Should we expose ourselves and each other to our circle of influence - family, friends - in this case?

Sio,

IF you both have ended your affairs, exposure is not necessary. Exposure is a tool to bring light of day to the lies that are affairs. Affairs don't do well in the light of day.

So if you and your H are through with your affairs, exposure is not necessary. Having said this, if there is someone in either of your families that you feel might be of help in recovering your marrigae, then discuss this with your H and use POJA to come to an agreement about contacting them or not.

Go to the Christmas party and be HIS WIFE. You have no idea how much they will help YOU and help him, especially if you are on his arm when walking around and in his arms while dancing. You just might be amazed to see the affect your presence has on him.

The process of recovery is very nonlinear, and often the things that you or he might feel are small are HUGE to the other person. If you are proud to have him as an H and you show it, you just might some surprising things yourself.

Recovery is a long and narrow road, but it does not have to be all pain, go to the party and enjoy yourself and your H.

God Bless,

JL

The vision of my husband and I enjoying ourselves at the Christmas party is a nice one. But I am anxious over the reality of it, too.

The OW wrote him some more angry emails yesterday which my husband showed me. He was sending necessary work communication and threw in an innocuous sort of joke. She wrote back and told him to leave her the f alone. He responded, ok, please do the same. Then she launched in to this whole tirade of how unfair all of this is to her and how she's never felt for anyone the way she feels for him. And that she's got to walk around at the office pining after what she can't have just because she is "not the one who got knocked up". Again going on and on about how SHE was the one who was there for him, not me.

Based on her attitude I don't see how they are going to be able to work together. Granted, they only occasionally *have* to interact for work, but it is necessary from time to time. She hates her job anyway so I am hoping she will leave. In the meantime... I am actually a little nervous about what she might do at the party. She seems to think that I am the only roadblock to her being with my husband. He has told me he is definitely not in love with her and that even if we did divorce he would not return to her. But she clearly thinks she is in love with him. And I can easily see a sexual harrassment suit on the horizon if she doesn't calm down.

I am sad. Because of my stupid immaturity and selfishness I have wrecked so much. My creative project involves several people including the OM, and it is taking off with a lot of momentum. It was my lifetime dream. If I leave several people will have their dream dashed too. How could I have been so shortsighted and... awful? The OM and I both feel horrible about what we have done. Like we used to be good people and want to get back to some level of integrity. He is already dating other women and moving on with his life. But I guess there is no way to save my marriage and still participate in anything having to do with OM.

siobhan1,


I'm sure you have heard this before here, but your marriage will never recover as long as your WH continues to work with the OW. You can't have NC if they still work together, no matter how seldom they have to interact.

Who

Siobhan:

You have made a lot of mistakes, but right now time is critical. You don't have the luxury of beating yourself up right now--there will be time for that later! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Focus on what you can do, the right choices you can make right NOW. From what I have read, you have made some good choices and courageious decisions. Stick with them and build on them.

The OW is showing her true colors. Good. For her, it was only about fulfulling selfish needs, not about a healthy relationship. She is like a child throwing a tantrum in a store. Let her throw it.

Your S needs to make a plan to find a way to work without running into OW. Hopefully she will quit, but if not, he needs to work somewhere else.

If you guys are going to make this work, you need to get your priorities in order. Convenience, pay, dream jobs, all that should be secondary to getting your marriage in order.

Best wishes,

Thanks OMWH... I agree with you... Especially the part about identifying priorities.

I got upset yesterday. My husband went to work. I played phone tag with our marriage counselor to get us an appointment next week. The time she had originally offered us that my husband found easiest for his schedule was taken. So I called him and text messaged him to ask him if he could do either of the other times. I knew it might not be the most convenient thing for him but we already have to wait a week to go in - my thinking was that this was very important. Well 3 hours later he finally sent me a terse text response accepting one of the times. I heard nothing from him the rest of the day. Last night he allowed our son to stay up late and I got the impression he wasn't up for much talking. I went to bed early. It had hurt my feelings not to hear from him all day given our current circumstances...

So this morning I brought up that I was angry yesterday and why. He is not normally an escalator or yeller but he raised the level of the confrontation rapidly. He told me he was very busy at work and just didn't have the bandwidth to deal with the situation right now. He (rightly) pointed out that I am in a lull when it comes to my work and the demands on my time, so it was easy for me to think about it and have the time to process things. I told him that I understood where he was coming from but that I felt that this situation between us couldn't really be put on hold. I said perhaps we needed to take some time apart to consider what we really want here. I told him being angry and depressed was affecting my focus as a mother and I needed to stop that.

So, we kind of made up before he left... Both apologized, me for my timing, him for having an AO. But he is talking about moving into an extended stay type hotel this weekend.

I don't know if I am making a mistake agreeing to separate... If he is just going to go back to status quo I can't just stay in this place though. I have spent years waiting for "my turn" when it comes to his job. All the bad feelings of neglect are surging back into my heart. If we do not deal with this we will remain open to the possibility of an A on both sides. I have been reading him some of the concepts off of this website but he just doesn't have time to deal with this right now. He says his workload won't lighten up until February. I do not believe his attitude has anything to do with OW, though. It just seems to be as it has always been.

What is the best thing to do? It almost seems like we will have more chance at the 15 hours a week together if we are forced to plan our time together a little more.

I am starting to feel like I am the only one who really wants to try to repair this marriage. I am doing a lot of reading here and I feel as if it is helping me with a sort of plan A. Last night he came home very late and still had work to do. I did not make any demands on him but just told him I was sorry his work was so demanding right now, and was there anything I could do for him. He said no, but later asked why I was being so nice to him. I just said there is no sense in not being nice, and that I want to work this out.

I got a wierd feeling at one point after I said I was going to bed, I walked back out to the dining room where he was on his laptop and it looked like he was escaping out of a screen hurredly. The screen was a search for email messages and though I could not read the name of the person, I could tell they were from the same name and that it was a longer name like that of his OW. He had told me they had no email contact that day. Maybe I am being paranoid, but I just don't get a good feeling with him being so distant and busy and unable (unwilling?) to talk with me about what is going on between us.

I know I am as big a jerk as he is for doing what I did. It makes it harder to have a clear plan. I was SUCH an IDIOT.

A friend of mine showed up on my doorstep yesterday because I have been playing hermit and have hardly left the house all week, and she was worried for me. I did not tell her all the details of what my husband and I are dealing with, though she is like my sister and knows a lot of the background and has witnessed a lot of what my husband has done to me in the past (alcohol, abandonment, etc). Her response was that she has always believed my husband is not a bad guy, but has some profound and deep seated issues that she believes will HAVE to be dealt with for us to have any chance. The trouble is, he has never REALLY tried to tackle them.

I am going to go to counseling until my head falls off. I must change ME. This being said I am wavering some on whether this marriage can and should be saved. I do believe I must try everything to make me a better person - but at what point do you let go? Unlike some others here I do not have many good memories, or a prior "good" marriage to try to go back to. It has been a terrible struggle from the beginning and my husband has said many times that we have no foundation to return to, our only chance is to build something completely new. But he is too busy with work to do it, and we are back to the pattern of the past years that have led to this terrible place... Even before the A's both my family, his family, and our friends expressed at various times that my husband has a lot of issues and that they would completely understand if it was too much for me to cope with. However I know I am no prize to be married to either, as I have demonstrated. Sigh.

Sio,

Time and patience are the watch words here. You need to give yourself and your H time, and you need to have patience with him and yourself.

Did you notice something big??? You were nice to him, didn't bug him AND...he picked it up right away. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Girl that is a baby step. Keep taking them and keep planting seeds. that is what you are doing, planting seeds and with time, patience and care, those seeds just might sprout.

Hang in the Sio. You won't regret it no matter how things turn out. But, there is hope, and he did respond to your efforts.

God Bless,

JL

I feel wrecked. He let loose on me this morning about what a lousy housekeeper I have been all the years we have been married. I just stood there and listened and didn't cross my arms or indicate being closed off at all. Tried so hard to stay open and quiet and let the communication flow. I managed for quite awhile but finally broke down in tears and had to take a break in the other room. When I came back he continued. He kept bringing up his mother and his parents' household as his ideal and expectation. When we met he was living in virtual squalor. He has consistently said to me over the years that as long as I was happy, he didn't really care about how perfect the house was. I honestly didn't realize what his standards were. I figured if they were higher than what he was doing when we were dating than we were okay. But I was so totally wrong.

He really does idealize his parents, their system of living and relationship. Of course there is that legacy of his father's secret infidelity, which is not what I consider ideal...

I also found out a while ago that my husband had an affair with his cousin's wife before he met me. The wife never told her husband and neither did my husband. So this seems to have a family component... My husband and his cousin are best friends and they live nearby. So many secrets and wierdness all around...

I feel AWFUL. Like a total failure as a wife. I apologized profusely for not "getting it" and understanding his expectations sooner. He is still bound and determined to leave for a trial separation... He hasn't decided whether he will wait until after the holidays or not, or how long it will be. I am starting to feel pathetic. Do I just keep taking it all in, making changes to please my husband, hope that maybe he will forgive some of my shortcomings? What about his issues and individual work? Right now I am afraid to say anything that is bothering me or hurting me because I don't want him to think I am making excuses for myself or trying to deflect the issue away from what I have done to hurt him. I don't understand the balance here...

Sio,

my WW had alot of problems in childhood too... rape, two pregnancies in her teen years, parents who totally neglected her and when she got married at 19 to get away from her parents, he was physically abusive

then she cheated on my three times

when those boundaries are not established by a healthy childhood, i suspect that (like me) you can plan A for a LONG time and nothing will change

in my case, that meant filing for divorce

there are times when she wishes all the crap never happened, which is a positive sign that my WW wants to change

the question is CAN she without some mega therapy

your husband and his alcohol, bi-sexual tendencies, adultry with his close cousin's wife... like i said... it doesn't sound like you plan A'ing is going to work any better than it did in my case