I'm in a fairly unique situation. I found out a few weeks ago that my wife of 3 years had sex with an "off-and-on boyfriend" as she describes it while we were dating years ago. It has crushed me. When she did it, I was busy falling madly for her. Furthermore, not but a few weeks after her affair, we talked about our past histories, and she assured me that she was long done with any past relationships several months before we met, and that she never had sex with anyone outside of a few committed relationships. At the same time, I told her honestly that since my previous divorce, I had committed to myself to not have sex outside of an intended lifelong relationship. I also accepted her past and in fact thought highly of her ethical standards. I understood that I had learned a lot from my previous marriage, although it ended tragically in her infidelity. Not everyone has had the same opportunities to grow.

Now, I found out that she had completely lied, shuffling dates, facts, people around to fit a convenient story that she thought I would accept. I'm hurt, betrayed, even violated, and now finally aware. I can't just get over it and I feel like the foundation of our relationship was ripped out from under us. In addition, any attempt to talk to her about it was met with resentment and an unwillingness to furnish any details, mindset, anything. I was left to imagine.

We have seen two marriage counselors, who both focused on justifying her actions because she was not "committed" to me at the time (no duh!) and saying lots of people do that (but I don't want to be married to lots of people!). They also focused on telling me to stop concerning myself with the past, focus on our present relationship (which is really awful now!) and that she has a right to privacy with her prior sex life, whatever that may have been. All I've been able to figure out at this point is that she on many occasions had sex on first dates in the past, and at least once had sex with someone else while we were dating. She won't discuss why, anything.

At this point I feel like this person is nothing like who I thought she was. I feel a sexual aversion to her, and an extreme distance emotionally. She has explained that she has different beliefs about sex than I do, and that I should accept that. She doesn't want to get divorced, but I don't know how to cope emotionally having found this out. How can we continue on in the future, basically knowing that our relationship was based on lies, and our current ethical standards are so different? She kept this all secret for 4 years! She claims she has never "cheated" on me (meaning while we were married), and I believe her (am I being stupidly trusting again?).

2ideal,

Just thoughts and questions.

I beleive that the counselors gave you correct information as far as it went. But I wonder if she had AIDS or something from her previous relationships would they recommend that her "privacy" was more important than telling you? I wonder if they understand the role of TRUST in a marriage? I wonder if your W understands that you cannot trust her now?

You see they were right she had the right to privacy, but she chose to tell you lies rather than look you in the eye and say "I think my private life before now is not relavent." You may or may not have bought that, but you'd know where she stands.

Given this is your second marriage and the first ended in with infidelity, I would go back to one of those counselors and ask them some very specific questions.


1. The first question is the one I asked you. If her previous life was private, then why didn't she say so rather than lie to me.

2. Isn't it reasonable that finding out that she lied to me about something relatively important to me, that I have lost trust in her?

3. Given that my 1st W was unfaithful, how am I supposed to trust my W now?

There are more but I would ask those first.


You also said
What are those different beliefs? Are they something that she would be proud to teach her children? Are they something that makes you living with her unacceptable?

I agree that she was NOT in a committed relationship when you were dating her. So she is free to do as she pleases. After all that is why marriage is different than dating, going steady, or even being engaged (which is a test run for marriage). But, no one likes to be lied to and frankly if you feel that her behavior would have excluded her from your consideration of marriage, this is a big thing.

Now I must ask you. How has your W beein as a partner in this marriage? Has she been a good W and friend to you? Has she treated you with respect and love?

These factors are important in your considerations. And frankly, they should way more heavily than what went on before the marriage. Yet, there is trust to be rebuilt and that will require her to be pretty transparent to you for awhile.

2Ideal, read the articles on this site and learn abit about relationships. It will help you to evaluate this situation as it is now. As for the past, it is gone, but it is something to learn from. If she learns how important honesty really is to you and accepts that you really need it, then perhaps the past mistakes will lead to a better marriage. By the same token, you now know something most spouses don't learn. Marriage is NOT about blind trust. Blind trust leads to complacency and that can kill a marriage. If you don't trust her, perhaps you need to spend more time with her, meet her needs, and love her actively.

You know what they say: "hold your friends close, and your enemies closer."

I know you are hurt, and I realize that the MC's words are not addressing what is really bothering you. You need to sit down and really focus on what is hurting you and be able to express it to your W and to the MC's.

I hope something I have said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

Hi 2ideal-

I wanted let you know the same thing happened to me. My husband cheated on me with one of my friends while we were engaged. I had no idea. He confessed last year, which was 18 years after his cheating. We are in the process of recovering.

If I had known what my husband did while we were engaged, I never would have married him. That liason with my friend so long ago created a domino effect that made our marriage a tangled, awful train wreck for years. His confession explained a lot- it was almost a relief to have a reason behind the crazy behavior we experienced. Like you, I feel like he and I don't have a real marriage- there is no foundation of intimacy and trust to "rebuild" what we had...because we never really had it (unlike most of the people on this board.)

What my husband and I DO have is a long shared history, a willingness to create a new relationship, and hope that following the MB principles will allow us fall in love with each other again. Not to mention two beautiful little boys that are counting on us to give them our best.

We are 14 months into recovery. I no longer obsess over his infidelity, I feel strong, and I think we're going to make it. Anyway, I wanted to let you know there is hope if you're both willing to do the hard work.

You're not alone. Keep strong and read all the wonderful material available here for free.

Best wishes,

~Saturn

Dear 2idealistic,

I'm putting together the relationship math, which looks like this (unless I'm mistaken?)

courted 1 year
married 3 years
previously married -- you
not previously married -- her
previously BH -- you
her -- not married as a virgin, and not chaste while dating you

Do you mind if I ask a few questions?

1. How old are the two of you?
2. Do you have any children (from this or previous marriage)
3. You refer to her extra-relationship pre-marital coitus with another man as an "affair" -- but how far into your dating relationship did it occur? Days? Weeks? Months? Were you already engaged? Was it the day before your wedding?

You wrote, "I understood that I had learned a lot from my previous marriage, although it ended tragically in her (your first wife's) infidelity. Not everyone has had the same opportunities to grow."

What did you "learn" from that marriage, and how did you grow?? Because accepting peoples' quirks, imperfections, and idiosyncracies is a major element of marital growth.

It seems that at first you believed you had married an idealized angel/madonna who met all of your standards.

Now you realize that the person you married is an actual imperfect human being, ******edit*************

Thank you, Saturn, for your message of hope and your suggestion to try to rebuild the relationship from the ground up.

--2idealistic?

JL - I have already basically asked those three questions of the counselors. They say it was OK what she did since we weren't engaged, and if she didn't lie, we might not have ended up together. The other two answers are that she hasn't cheated on me since marriage, so I should trust her. I, of course, have to come to grips with a sexual past I knew nothing about, and she is indignant that it bothers me and that I want some open honesty to help me in that respect.

The beliefs you asked about are simply that I believe sex should be reserved for two people in a lifelong commitment. She said in the past (when she was I guess trying to say what I wanted to hear) that she thought that was a remarkable idea and she wished she had always followed it. Now, she says she thinks that is a "quaint" idea, and she just doesn't believe it at all, but she thinks it is OK for me to behave that way. We have no children, although we were starting to try before this happened. I asked her what she would try to teach them about sex, and she said she would simply ask them to wait until they are "old enough". We're both 35 now. I can say, I'm not "old enough" to have sex with just anyone I'm physically attracted to. Part of me wonders if perhaps the sudden change in her attitude is that she has always had a strong aversion to admitting fault. She views my hurt as placing blame on her. I've tried not to do this. I want to forgive, but how do you forgive when someone won't acknowledge fault? How can you forgive when the only apologies are "I'm sorry you found out", "I'm sorry you're hurt". How can you forgive when you can't talk it over openly to understand.

I've read a lot of the articles on this site, and found them very insightful and the ideas presented seem like the kind of marriage I want. I've always wanted a completely honest and connected relationship.

--2idealistic?

Sweetsobriquet -

Your post is really de-constructive when you try to put words in my mouth like the wh* word. I would never say anything like that. In no way did I say I ever thought my wife was an idealized angel or madonna. I did believe her sexual history was as she told me, however.

I'll answer your questions as they may help other to advise me, but please keep derisive comments to yourself.

We're both 35
Neither of us have any children
We were a few weeks and several dates into dating when the affair happened
From my previous marriage and divorce, among other things, I learned that sex can be very hurtful to those you love later on. I never wanted anyone to feel the way I did when my ex-wife cheated on me. I also never wanted anyone to feel regret over a failed sexual relationship with me. Let's face it - plenty of relationships fail even before marriage. Why put the baggage of sex into that as well. If it weren't hurtful to those we care about most later on, why would people lie or build a wall around themselves with respect to that? If you have nothing to hide, its easier to be honest.

2idealistic?

Saturn - I've been thinking more, and wondering what you do to create a new relationship. We're so stuck right now with my wife turning the whole thing around and being mad at me for being upset. We don't talk, and the only way she will talk is to pay $100 to sit for an hour with these ridiculus marriage counselors. We were so much better off before we saw them because now she is dead set on how she is right. Did your husband honestly acknowledge what he did was wrong and that you had a right to feel upset about it?

--2idealistic?

Hi again 2ideal-

"Did your husband honestly acknowledge what he did was wrong and that you had a right to feel upset about it?"

No, not for a long time. But now he is quite remorseful, and he's working hard to compensate for the pain he caused us.

One thing I learned at this site is that you can't change your spouse only yourself. But a marriage is like a strange dance- if you change your steps then often your partner will adjust to your new pattern. So you can't change your wife, but you do have influence over her by changing your approach.

"We don't talk, and the only way she will talk is to pay $100 to sit for an hour with these ridiculus marriage counselors."

Learning about relationship dynamics is really fascinating (I just wish it wasn't under such painful circumstances). Using new ways to communicate with my husband has improved our marriage, but has also spilled over into making me more effective in other areas of my life as well.

Here's a great article for you to read:
what to do when she won't talk to you

Hang in there-
~Saturn

Hi there, 2I --

I absolutely apologize for my unclear use of the term wh*re -- I certainly was not referring to your wife that way, and as a FWW, I myself find that kind of referencing tremendously offensive. Please forgive me.

What I was trying to convey (but did a dreadful job of) was the tendency of many people -- especially men -- to view women dichotomously -- either as MADONNA, or as WH*RE -- and nowhere in between. (There's actually a psychological complex with this name, the "Madonna/Wh*re Complex" -- Google it for more satisfactory information).

The underlying idea is that there's an immature tendency to see people as being at one extreme or another. Either a woman is a sweet, virgin--adored madonna/mother -- OR...... she must be a sl*t. And usually, it takes very, very little in the immature mind to tip a woman away from being a virgin/madonna into the "wrong" category.

It seems to me that you have had an otherwise happy and satisfactory marriage for three years, following an otherwise satisfactory courtship. You are still VERY early in your marriage, and still getting to know each other, even though chronologically you are mature.

(Chronological maturity, BTW, doesn't mean much. Honestly, I married my husband in his thirties, and he was still plenty immature at the time (part of his charm). Twenty years later, we are still discovering things about one another, all the time.)

When your wife as a DATE was sharing information about past sexual history with you, it was VERY VERY VERY early in your "relationship" -- it might not even properly have been considered a relationship at that point. There might not have been reason to think that the two of you were even dating exclusively. That might have been YOUR perception, and not HERS.

From my heart and soul -- I still remember the evening and the conversation that I turned down a date with someone other than my husband-to-be, because I had decided that I finally had a serious and exclusive relationship with the man I eventually married. But years later, I learned that my (then) husband had spent weeks continuing to "date" other women because he had not yet viewed things the same way!

Courtship is not the same as engagement, which is not the same as marriage.

The rules are not the same, and the standards of conduct are not the same.

You should be nicer to BOTH of you!

Read your post, sorry that you are having to go through this. From what I have read on MB, there should NEVER be ANY secrets in a marrital relationship period!!

I do not understand why she is so adimate about not letting you put your mind to rest. If she is in fact devoted JUST to you, why not answer your questions?

Because it is not Unequivical LOVE (same as mine). You can drive yourself nuts trying to get her to fess up and tell you everything.

The downside is...unfortunately that you can go further insane in trying to find out and monitor her for whatever your mind leads itself to. With everything that I have done, I might as well take up private investigating.

Best of luck to you my friend.. Remember meet her EN and prevent LB, foundation for all here!

LTKramer -

Thanks for your post. I read yours last night as well, but really didn't feel in a position to comment or offer advice in my position. I felt for you though, because my previous marriage ended similarly in some ways, differently in other ways. I had gone through several weeks of patiently waiting to talk through our issues after she told me she wasn't in love with me anymore, but wouldn't explain or let me make it up to her. Eventually, she told me about her affair to move me along and leave. I broke down, of course, and when recovered enough, I asked her to go to counseling which she refused. She said she simply didn't want to be in love with me anymore anyway, so she wouldn't go. I simply gave up. I don't know if that was right or wrong, but I learned to stop trying to change her or anyone other than myself, that I was not handsome, interesting, or very nice. I could only work on the 3rd item. I was not the best husband I could have been, and that was certainly part of it. Simple lack of physical attraction was probably another. If I were ever to fall in love again, she would love me for my character only. Now I'm in a different situation, where my character is threatening to my wife, she probably feels like she can't compare, and wants to say the modern "sex in the city" lifestyle which has become popular is a good way of equalizing the genders. Men have lived badly for a long time, in my opinion. Women shouldn't accept that, and they certainly shouldn't emulate it.

I don't think monitoring your husbands every move is healthy. You already know he's cheating and doesn't want you back. You can try to get counseling with him or for yourself, you can give up. All I can say is don't retaliate. Whatever happens, make sure you become the best person you can be. Someone, maybe your husband, maybe someone else, will probably fall in love with you again. No matter what, you can have yourself to feel proud of. That is how I pulled through last time.

-2ideal

Sweetsobriquet-

I understand what you are trying to say about the complex. Here, there is first of all, honesty and the ability to talk things out even if they are difficult. We haven't gotten there.

As for standards of conduct, everyone gets to decide on their own. I decided I would never want to do anything I couldn't tell my future wife if I ever found her, or anyone else for that matter. That was my standard. I didn't feel the need to have the most conquests to tell the guys. That really is how most guys I've met behave. They are programmed from childhood and popular media to base their self worth on how many sexual partners they can claim. Many women, I would think, have long resented this behavior. So why emulate it and give the guys what they want - conquest? I can accept core values that are vastly different from my own so long as they don't break the law. I can't accept core values that are vastly different from my own when they come directly into my life, my family, my friends, and hurt them. When other folks decide for themselves that free sex is fine, both partners partake, and both are OK with it, fine with me even if I can't understand. In my own marriage and when considering the values that could be instilled in our kids (if had any) not OK. Honesty, integrity, consideration for others are my core beliefs.

In my present case, I find it absolutely obvious that if the roles were reversed, my wife would have a right to her feelings, and I would have been a scoundrel who would be required to take responsibility for my dishonesty *and* for my actions.

-2ideal

My wife and I are going back to one of the local marriage counselors again tonight. She was going to go with or without me. I can only hope it doesn't set us back further. The MC's favorite book is "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work" by John M. Gottman. I picked up the book again last night to refresh myself on the seven principles. Not one of them is honesty! They are:

1. Enhance your Love Maps
2. Nurture your fondness and admiration
3. Turn toward each other instead of away
4. Let your partner influence you
5. Solve your solvable problems
6. Overcome gridlock
7. Create shared meaning

All well and good, I would think, but where's honesty? Maybe it's buried in there somewhere, but all I remember from reading the book is it's about how to contort the phrasing of everything you say so that you avoid actually communicating at all. That way, you can quietly get along with a difficult person. Heck, if I wanted that, I'd stay at work *all* the time - there's plenty of people there I don't want a close personal relationship with.

Which one of you is being “quiet,” and which one of you is the “difficult” one?!?!

If honesty is what you hold at a premium, then I’ll be blunt. I’m gathering that you are harboring profound resentment towards your wife for having slept with another man in the extremely early stages of your dating, WAYYYYYYYYYYYYyyyyyyy before she felt it was an exclusive relationship.

Now, you are nurturing that resentment into tremendous “disrespectful judgement” of your wife’s values and character, calling it “dishonesty” on her part because she did not

a) divulge her entire history to a man she did not know well or have substantial interest in at the time (a few weeks after you’d met?); and
b) did not make herself completely exclusive to a man that she was merely dating at the time (though you apparently felt differently).

In short, you are harboring anger towards a hurt that was never directed at you – not intentionally, and not accidentally.

My take on this is that … something else is going on. Talk about differences in “sexual values” is actually a core conversation about something else … especially where there have been no actual infidelities. You have written that the two of you were striving to conceive until you found out she’d had sex with another man since the two of you had merely met. And in that time, you’ve had conversations about mutual exclusivity with her that have demonstrated that you don’t share the same core values. Is the underlying issue that you do not want to have children with your wife? Or that you no longer want to have sex with her? Are there also other issues relating to SF between the two of you that need to be addressed?


To thine own self be true, and then it must follow, like the night the day, thou cannot be untrue to anyone ... Maybe some IC would be beneficial in helping you discover what is truly "bugging" you. Two MCs have told you what you do NOT want to hear. Possibly, you are right, and they are wrong … HOWEVER... all of this still reads to me like a man who enjoys self-righteous indignation at an injury that was never genuinely leveled in his direction - at the expense of his primary relationship. And that comes at a huge cost.

There are many good paths to marital health and reconciliation. MarriageBuilders is an exceptionally good one, but it is not the ONLY good one. Don’t WED yourself to MB, instead of WEDDING yourself to your WIFE!

Sweetsobriquet -

Something may have hit too close to home for you right from the beginning with my case. Perhaps you should step back. You are vicious and taunting at someone who is trying his best to work through a crisis. It really is and always was about honesty and core values from the beginning. Your way of life is no concern of mine, but that doesn't mean anyone else should be compelled to copy it or be comfortable with it in their own life.

So let's just refocus the discussion here, in case anyone has any constructive advice instead of judgements of me being judgmental.

I't bothers me greatly that my wife had sex with another man while we were dating, and it bothers me that she isn't remorseful about it. Good, bad, I don't know, it just does. It really hurts to think of my wife with another man, which now I can't stop thinking about in the sense that it happened during our relationship, not before. Lest you judge me as judgemental, I broke off two other early relationships (dating only), one who was a virgin at the time, and one who I think still is, for my now-wife around the same time as her affair. This simply for the fact that I felt more in common with my wife. (No, I assumed my wife was probably not a virgin, but I hadn't asked. In fact, I never asked, she brought up the conversations about past relationships). Some of my previous discussion was to try to explain to you all why sex is something more than physical to me, something spiritual and extremely personal, since it seems hard for people to understand that a man can feel that way. It was not to say I'm the greatest. It is just simple facts about my background to possibly help get good advice.

So, any constructive advice related to:
-Should my wife and I talk this through or not?, and how to get started.
-How to accept this new found incompatibility, or should we?
-Should we start with a policy of honesty, or ignore this and hope it goes away? How?

What did you think about the article I linked for you?

2I-

Here's my question: Is this a deal breaker for you? If not, then you DO need to accept that she has had sex with another man in the past.

Yes, you were feeling more exclusive with her in the early stages then she was...but: Where is she now? She is MARRIED to YOU!!!!! This seems to be something you are completely overlooking. So what if she slept with someone else VEEERRRYYYY early on in your "dating" relationship. You had only known each other a few weeks and you were not exclusive. Perhaps YOU were choosing to date only her, but she wasn't there yet. If it was THAT important to you, then you should have discussed it with her at that time.

To answer your questions:
- Sure, you can discuss it, but it will not make it go away. It happened. It cannot be taken back. She can't unring the bell. You can make this your dealbreaker and get a divorce or you can choose to get past it.
- Should you accept it? That, my friend, is entirely up to you. Are you willing to throw away your entire marriage because you found out something you didn't know in the very early beginning stages of your relationship? You are the only one that can answer that.
- Honesty. Of course you should strive for honesty in everything from this point forward. That's a no-brainer.

The reason your wife isn't remorseful about it is because at the time she did nothing wrong. You weren't exclusively dating yet, you'd only known each other a few weeks. You weren't married. You weren't engaged. It sounds like you are a little hung up about the whole "virgin" thing, since you explicitly described the other two women you were dating at the time as virgins. You can be angry about giving up the virgins for your wife, who wasn't, or you can accept your wife as she is...

Has your wife been faithful to you since you became exclusive with each other? That is the question. If she has, then I do not believe you have any grounds for anger or mistrust. Sorry, I'm on your wife's side in this one.

Saturn -

Very good article you posted, and I've been trying the methods. I'm still in the patience stage, as it does require her to initiate any talk. Therefore, we haven't talked outside the MCs office. The MC session did go better than last time for a while, but kind of ended badly when the MC said near the end that if it was important to me, I should have asked more pointed questions when we were dating rather than taking what my wife said as honest truth. I thought at the time that would be a great way to push her away, honest or not, and I really felt no reason to disbelieve her.

I'll probably get off this board now. Seems too many attacks based on the premise that any time a woman has sex it is good as long as it is not an extra-marital affair. I just don't believe in men or women doing recreational sex. Anyway, I didn't come here to change anyone's opinion or get votes on who is right, just wanted some constructive advice on how to get our relationship going again. Thanks to those of you who helped.

-2I