Hi all-- ok I've decided to try counseling, swallow my pride and all my instincts and give it 1 last college try. But, I'm afraid H is not rahabilitatable (is that a word?). Anyway, since everything has happened and I've been lied to SOOOOOOO many times, I've lost all trust and he has retreated even further into himself than ever. H's lack of communication and dishonesty have always been a huge issue and now it's worse b/c he's terrified of me. I think the sneaky behavior and dishonesty started way before he met me. H's childhood was less than perfect, and it probably started when he was old enough to talk. So, my question is can this be fixed??? Do you really think if I'm "NICE" suddenly he'll open up and communicate and be completely honest? MC seems to think that will help after meeting H-- the king of the schmoozers-- 2 times. Has anyone ever seen a turn-around like that? I have my doubts. But, I guess I'll never know until I try. I wish people came with labels like "MAJOR ISSUES", "MINOR ISSUES", and "COMES FROM NORMAL LOVING FAMILY". It would make life so much easier....

Well, not by YOU...he has to CHOOSE to CHANGE..ON HIS OWN..but ANYONE CAN CHANGE..I wholeheartedly believe that...



HIS CHILDHOOD is NOT RELEVANT NOW...This is all about what he is willing to do TODAY...IMO, HIS CHILDHOOD is none of YOUR BUSINESS..there is no way that you can really understand HIS CHILDHOOD, its influence ON HIM and expect him to react to it the way YOU WOULD..IMO, this is disrespectful..

Focus on TODAY..Focus on THE NOW..Focus on what YOU CAN CONTROL..and that is ONLY YOURSELF...

Have you done the MB PLANS? Where are you in that process? That has the BEST CHANCE of working for YOU and YOUR MARRIAGE...



It is not about being "NICE"..it's about meeting his PRIMARY EMOTIONAL NEEDS..if you do PLAN A..are you familiar with MBERS' BASICS? Have you read SURVIVING AN AFFAIR?



We've been over FOUR YEARS IN RECOVERY...after my H's TWO-YEAR ROMANTIC AFFAIR..he was a typical WH like yours is..he had a HORRIBLE CHILDHOOD..I'm not sure he will ever work on those issues..that's his business, IMO..

WORK THE MB PLANS...



Life is not easy..who said that it was meant to be easy...THE CHALLENGE MAKES IT SWEETER...

hi mimi-- yes we did the EN's questionnaire and we learned a lot. We did the policy of Joint Agreement and radical honesty. He agreed to everything. And then I discovered he was still lying. That's when it all fell apart. MB concepts were helping..or so I thought. So now we're trying MC. It all sounds reasonable to me. And he ALWAYS agrees to everything...but no action, so far. I have After the Affair, but haven't started it yet. I've been in a "holding" mode lately. Needed to step back and take a break from the drama. Now I'm trying again.

Actions speak louder than words...

Did you two WRITE and SEND a NO CONTACT LETTER?

Very typical for a WH to CAKE-EAT, wanting both of you...

I'm referring to SURVIVING AN AFFAIR by Dr. HARLEY..not AFTER AN AFFAIR..

I recommend coaching from Steve Harley of MBers..

Traditional marriage counseling was USELESS for US..my H continued his affair while in individual and marriage counseling...

Funny that you mention the NC letter b/c that is one of the biggest things he lied about. WE e-mailed a NC letter, and a couple other e-mails later as she was not adhering to NC, and the whole time he was talking to her behind my back and telling her the e-mails were all my idea. So, I wonder why I have trust issues!!

Your H is following the TYPICAL WS SCRIPT!!!

We had more than one FALSE RECOVERY!!

It's an ADDICTION, SAH...

So, how many chances did you give him?? How much BS (and that's not "betrayed spouse") can one person put up with??!! I've been lied to to varying degrees for 7 years...if it weren't for our kids he would have run out of chances long ago. What kept you going? Did you have some glimpse of happiness in the future???

I never fell out of love with him. I had FAITH.



I had so much HAPPINESS in the past with him and HOPE for the FUTURE. I never gave up HOPE...because I HAD A PLAN that has been proven to work. I WORKED THE PLANS.

TODAY, I'M HAPPIER THAN I HAVE EVER BEEN with him.

But.. looking back... I made it MAINLY about ME..my PERSONAL GROWTH..my CHANGES..and not about HIM....because I learned that I had NO CONTROL over HIM...

I really admire you, mimi. And I wish I could be that secure and happy. Our marriage wasn't great to begin with, my husband has always had some bad "habits" and I had know idea how much he was hiding until I discovered some...probably not all...of it 2 years ago.

Anyway, I love my kids more than anything and am willing to give up a fulfilling love life for them. But, who knows what's right for them?? I'm just sooooo confused. I'd love to be in love with the father of my children and have a happy marriage, but without trust I don't know if I can do it. And, like I said, we don't have much to draw from as far as "happy" memories. Every time I thought we were happy, he was looking for other women, so I don't even know what "happy" is. I've had to re-define my whole idea of having a happy marriage.

Sometimes I just think if we really loved eachother it wouldn't be this difficult. Right now we are an obligatin to eachother and our kids....

So, this begs the question, what is your idea of a happy mariage now?

silent, I have no idea what my idea of a happy marriage is. My parents have a happy marriage. I'd like to be like them. Where else do we learn about marriage?

No, I meant to say, what EXACTLY, what specific things do you believe epitomize a happy unity?

For example, I envision affection, laughter and conversation as part of a happy marriage. I believe that communication makes for a happy marriage. These are what I believe in. I have no marriages to base this on, not really. My mom has died and her last marriage stemmed from an affair. My sister has been married and divorced. My brother will never marry, much less have a girlfriend. Most of my extended family is divorced and/or remarried.

I'm figuring this out only considering what *I* believe a good marriage is composed of.

How about asking your parents about their marriage; how THEY do it, what works for them. I'm sure it has not been all wine and roses for their entire span; how did they overcome things, how do they do that now?

I see a happy marriage as one that shows a united front; two people, living their lives with each other in mind.

sl-- I'm totally with you. Honesty and communication have become THE most important thing in marriage to me.

Unfortunatley, I do not think H agrees with that, or maybe we have a different definition of honesty. He thinks cleaning, bathing the kids and helping around the house will fix our marriage. I can't seem to convince him otherwise. I appreciate all the help I get from him, however none of that means anything as far as us getting closer.

I never realized what a HUGE impact open communication had on our marriage until now. Now it seems like the ONLY thing that will save us. And, no matter what I try I can NOT get him to communicate. Maybe the MC can convince him...we'll see.

I would say that the first sentence is a DJ; your assumption of what he thinks, BUT, I also realize that these assumptions come from your reality with him (words right out of my mouth, at one time). Believe me, I understand. Your statment hit me right between the eyes. PWC (my FWH) DOES do things around the house and with our son, but when it comes to showing love, either he does it in a way that I don't consider loving or RECOGNIZE as loving, or he's really not doing much.

This is why I need detachment, so that I can view his actions without emotion. If I were to allow my emotions to guide my decisions, I would leave, right this minute, not because I don't love him, but because I don't FEEL like he loves me. To me, right now, it's too soon to make this kind of decision, but I have small deadlines.

All I can say is that you speak to what many of us are dealing with. Letting go has been my best ally.

My biggest boundary for M is that I will not remain in a loveless M, one without both parties showing and being loved. This requires oodles of time to sort out, due to withdrawal and SLOW change over time. It can be tiring when I try to do too much too soon, because it creates expectation, frustration and anger against the one person you are trying to DRAW in to you.

Believe me, much of the time, I feel like I'm fighting nature; like I'm fighting AGAINST reality, the reality that PWC really, honestly, truly means what he says in that he doesn't like me, love me anymore. I wonder if I'm living in reality, or still clinging to some fantasy that we will perservere, as if we have some hidden power beneath the surface. I don't really KNOW for sure. It's tough to KNOW when you have conflicting opinions from MB vs. Real world friends, and your own brain is still struggling to grasp the measure of damage that has been done.

It sure as he!! ain't fair, but such is life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Good to know there are others out there like me, sl-- thanks for sharing!

But, despite your perception of him having "BAD HABITS", you married him and had your children with him. Those are not just YOUR KIDS. They are YOUR CHILDREN together, just as much his as yours. You must have been IN LOVE with him. MBers conception of marriage just really FIT for me. The viewpoint may not FIT for everyone. I gained this understanding from my coaching with Steve Harley who made me aware of a zillion important points including: "YOU LOVED EACH OTHER IN THE PAST; YOU CAN LOVE EACH OTHER AGAIN"; "LOVE IS A VERB"-not magical-but created and worked on...so you both can indeed, according to the MBer's POV create the LOVE that brought you together if you make LOVE DEPOSITS. My H has "BAD HABITS", stuff that he does that bugs the you know what out of me..but I don't focus on that. I focus on what I can do each day to EVIDENCE MY LOVE FOR HIM, meeting his EMOTIONAL NEEDS, taking care of HIM and the more I focus on doing that, the more his love for ME grows and the more he DOES THE SAME. I think we've really learned HOW TO LOVE EACH OTHER, cause we've LEARNED TO WORK ON IT. If I had a choice, I certainly wouldn't have gone through this trauma to get here but maybe that was the way it was supposed to be. THIS IS THE STORY OF MY LIFE. I accept that NOW.



In my opinion, it's clearly RIGHT for them to be raised in a home with their MOTHER AND FATHER.



You can do what YOU CHOOSE to do. You can do YOUR PART to work on your marriage if YOU CHOOSE to do that.



You are not speaking in terms of the MBers' viewpoint. That's why I've been encouraging you to read and apply the plans. LOVE does not happen MAGICALLY. EVIDENCE your LOVE for him. You said you filled out the questionnaires. What makes him happy? That's PLAN A.

But, before RECOVERY can begin in your marriage, you must do the NC LETTER.

I don't read that you are DOING anything. That is a CHOICE that you are making. If you want out of your marriage, fine..and that should occur if you do not choose to do YOUR OWN WORK.

I'm sorry, SAHM. I think this is so unfortunate for you to say this about your H. What a wonderful opportunity for you to meet his ADMIRATION NEED. How unappreciative of you! I'm sorry. He should be commended for all he does to help you. I certainly love it when my H expresses his appreciation for what I do. THIS IS DEFINITELY A WAY THAT A MAN SHOWS HIS LOVE FOR HIS WIFE. He is evidencing FAMILY COMMITMENT, DOMESTIC SUPPORT....If you begin to genuinely express your appreciation to him, HE WILL FEEL LOVED BY YOU and it would be a LOVING thing for you to do. How awful of you to dismiss the WONDERFULNESS of this for your children! Do you know how many children would love to have a father like this? Ask yourself how your lack of appreciation of his parenting may have led your marriage to be vulnerable to an affair.

This really hits home to me cause this is exactly what I did..I TOOK MY H FOR GRANTED and didn't evidence my appreciation of him. He took up with another woman and wanted to start all over again with her, helping her raise HER CHILD..YUCK..and she lapped up his WONDERFULNESS...and APPRECIATED HIM..everything he did for her..it was all PHONY..but I WAS WRONG..as I feel that you are..SORRY...

It is important to consider HIS POINT OF VIEW..what's important to HIM..maybe different than what is important to YOU..it's not all about YOU and what YOU want in a marriage...

I'm about to beat SL over the head..she knows better...

Mimi, after DDay, we talked about taking eachother for granted. We sorted this all out with our EN's questionnaire. I was wholeheartedly invested in trying to appreciate him more and give him the love and admiration he needed. And it worked just like you said. I gave love and admiration and got love in return.

And then I discovered he wasn't holding up his end of the bargain. He was grinning and drinking up all the love, admiration, and physical satisfaction...and still talking to the OW. That didn't come out til a year LATER. Along with details of a few other on-line affairs.

I, like you, know all too well that there are plenty of women out there who are impressed by the wonderful father act. He used my daughter on more than 1 occasion to impress women. He even went as far as e-mailing pics of he and her to an internet woman.

So, as much as I'd like to throw caution to the wind and shower him with love and devotion, I just don't think I'm capable right now. But, I have learned that I am CAPABLE of it. I can give love and receive love. I can appreciate and admire someone. I how to keep a relationship alive. Just not sure if I can blindly give HIM another chance after I've seen his performance OVER and OVER, and BOUGHT it OVER and OVER.

I'm glad to hear from you and that you have been so successful. I understand and appreciate all your advice. Maybe I'm just not yet ready to invest my heart AGAIN.

SAHM, I understand exactly where you are coming from, my WH was the same way. What I didn't understand at the time was maybe MY perception of why he did what he did or didn't do was the truth. MY perception is the key. What I found out in all my O&H intimidated my WH. His perception was I was telling him he was wrong and couldn't do anything right. EYES OPENED, that was NOT what I was trying to convey (well ok, not all the time). I found I needed to look at my reasonings and presentation to him. I had to do the onion peel on why I DO what I DO, why I FEEL the way I FEEL. Another EYE OPENING moment(s). What I found out I'm a co-dependent enabler. What I "think" of my WH, that my easy going, nothing seems to fluster him, however not a very emotional guy either is P/A. UGH!!! Hard stuff to work with. BUT I'm learning, and better yet he is RESPONDING. SLOWLY but still responding.
My suggestion to you, evaluate yourself and your motives. Be honest with who you are, and who you 'think' you are. Work on YOU while still plan A'ing him. LOOK for ANY sign (action) of change/encouragment. The actions can sometimes be so small you might miss them, LOOK HARD. Look for a reason for hope.

Ya know plan A isn't about just accepting whatever he tells you as gospel. It's about verifying what he says to earn YOUR trust back, to make you as comfortable as can be in this sitch while still loving him. You also need to set up boundaries with consequences. Lying is a big no-no on my boundary list.
Don't give up yet! Keep working THE PLAN. (((blessings)))