It's not about his feelings - what is he DOING, consistently, over an extended period of time.

He is telling the truth when he says it's not about you - it IS about him and it is his problem.

Ignore the crying and begging - he has to prove he's changed. He has to do the work to discover why he is a serial adulterer and how to stop it. Of course he can get help in doing so from books and counselors. Crying and begging are just his way of trying to con you into putting up with his problem. When he knocks that off and starts working on learning an effective plan and putting it in place, then you will know he is serious.

You are worried you might give up on him too soon, that he maybe really does love you, right? But whether or not he loves you doesn't even matter if he WILL NOT take the responsibility to fix his problem so that you can have a chance at a healthy loving marriage, right?

Tell him he has a problem and if/when he wants to fix it you will assist him but unless he takes ownership of his problem AND solving it, then you must move on with your life. Then just leave him to it.

OK bad analogy.....sorry about that. My father is also an alcoholic and hasnt had a drink in almost 40yrs.

I guess my response is that I personally havent seen a serial cheater ever stop for good. I have a whole lot of friends and acquaintances that have cheated more than once.

I guess a few can stop, but Im skeptical. I would put the odds at 75% against a serial cheater stopping. Again, JMHO........Ive seen way to many repeat offenders.

He is doing more this time than he has ever done before. He is working on our dialogues and opening up to me. He has, as far as I can tell, abandoned the lying and the secrets and come completely clean with me. He's told me if I get the job I applied for he will continue to go to counseling by himself because he wants to understand why he does this and how he can stop. He seems sincere in that desire. I really want to be part of that, but if he has to go to counseling alone, at least he's going. So many people in Retrouvaille told me there is no such thing as a marriage that is beyond help, but I don't know if I agree with that. In the meantime,I'm not sure how I go on acting as though we are okay in front of the kids, trying to change my own negative habits and continuing to work on the marriage as though I believe we have a chance and as though I believe he still loves me and won't cheat again. I just don't know what I believe anymore.

How do I do this? How do I act like we're okay and try to go about the business of living every day when I hurt so much? What if the "me" I am now is the "me" I stay forever after so much hurt? I asked him that today and he said he caused it, he'll live with it, but I know that's not true. He hates how depressed and non-functioning I am. He's going to do it again. It's just a matter of time. Anyone who has that many affairs isn't happy in their marriage or isn't happy with the person they married, it's that simple. He's looking for someone to take my place, but when it comes down to it, he's too afraid to physically leave because divorce is messy, expensive and he'd consider himself a failure. By having affairs he's trying to force me to kick him out, then I'D be the failure, not him, and he could go to someone else with a clear conscience. He says he loves me and he wants to be with me, but I think he stays just because leaving would be so hard. I can't let go of the past. We had a family get-together with his family today and after 22 years I didn't feel like I belonged there. How do I honor my promise to the counselor to give her at least three months?
Anyone have any advice at all? RIF?? Can you help me?

Ok, here's the thing (and some might not agree with me) but I answer as the wife of a serial adulterer who has turned his life around:

You have EVERY RIGHT to call it quits whenever YOU want to. No one can hold you hostage if you decide you can't handle this. Serial adultery is a whole 'nuther animal than typical Ws's.

Merrycat, if you really do want to leave, you don't need permission. You don't even need a reason, honestly.

I am thinking that the three month wait is a way for you to be certain you would have little to no regrets before going. If you want to leave but still want to honor this promise you made, well, perhaps use the three months to prepare yourself to go.

Merrycat, this is your decision. You know in your gut what you want. GIve yourself permission to voice it and act on it.

Mojo, I don't really think I want to go. That's the problem, though. I want to be with him, but I am so afraid he will cheat again. He's afraid he will, too, because he doesn't understand why he does it, but he says he doesn't want to. I want to stay in my marriage, but I'm afraid to because I just don't want to go through this again. How did your husband turn it around? Was he the gentleman that went back to church and is now in Bible College? How do you know in your heart he has changed and will never do this to you again? How many affairs did he have? You don't have to answer. I know it's none of my business. I just need to know that some people have made it to feel as though there's any hope at all for us. I'm just having trouble letting go of the past and living each day as it comes, sometimes even being civil to him is hard. I feel like if I let it go and act normally, I am minimizing the hurt he has caused me. I want to talk about it constantly and I know he's getting tired of me harping on it, but I just feel disposable. I feel like every time something in our marriage gets hard or he is not feeling fulfilled, he tosses me on the garbage heap and gets involved with someone else. Then he comes to his senses eventually, realizing that he doesn't want a divorce because I'm safe, familiar and divorce is messy and expensive and he's afraid he has too much to lose. I'm not sure he's staying with me for the right reasons. Then he pulls me out of the garbage bin, dusts me off and tells me what I need to hear for a while until he meets someone else who he thinks might give him what he needs and feels he isn't getting from me. I'm tired of being disposable. He says none of that's true, but how can I believe anything he says to me anymore? Mojo, how did you leave the past behind and make the decision to love and trust again? I'm just so lost and confused.

Hi MC,

I don't have a lot of time to respond right now. Just wanted you to know that I know exactly how you're feeling, what you're going through and have had all the same thoughts as you. My H confessed to quite a bit to me over the past year as you can see from my sig line.

Here's the conclusion that I came to early on. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION RIGHT NOW. Take your time and think things through. Honestly, it wouldn't be good for you to make drastic changes while you're in such emotional turmoil at this point, even if you think you might leave. Give yourself a chance to get your bearings.

I'm glad I didn't make any drastic decisions. It has taken some time but my H is turning into the man of my dreams now. It's not fake. I'm watching his actions. We've had some setbacks but he seems pretty serious about our recovery, and I assure you, it hasn't been easy for him because of how angry and resentful I have been.

I would suggest you make a list of everything YOU need to even consider a relationship with him. Make it a list that would lead you to be HAPPY in the relationship, not just saving it. If your husband is willing to do what is necessary and proves himself over time, lots of time, you could be really happy one day. The emotional needs, the lovebusters stuff and poja has made all the difference in our marriage as well.

You won’t know for awhile if your husband is sincere or not. If he his, he’ll be patient with you. This is not going to be an easy fix for him. He will need to be accountable to you for the rest of his days and be happy about it. He will listen to you when you need to, for as long as you need to. He will not expect you to trust him for a long, long time, if you ever do. He will accept all of this and cherish you.

Make some boundaries for yourself and stick to them. Do you know what boundaries are and how to put them in place to protect you?

I am so so sorry you are going through all of this. But please, give yourself a break and don't feel like you have to decide one way or the other right now.

BTW, I am in no way suggesting that your H is a sex addict but there's a site called "RecoveryNation.com" that has some valuable free lessons for men like your husband and mine. There are healing lessons for the partners as well. It teaches people how to live their lives based on values and not emotions, like your husband has been doing. What your husband and mine have done is lived a life based on immature emotions. Check it out and you'll see what I'm talking about. Please don't let the "sex addict" thing scare you away from checking it out. It's just what the doctor ordered. Trust me on this one.

And MC, it would be so much easier to read your post if you broke them up in paragraphs. It hurts the eyes to read them when it’s one long paragraph.

And lastly, remember to breathe.

{{{{{{MerryCat}}}}}}}}

Another question: How do I live with the thought in my head that he doesn't really love me. He says he does and always has, but I think that may be denial because he's so afraid of divorce. I just don't believe that anyone who loves another person could cheat on them over and over the way he has me. he either doesn't love me or he isn't happy with me, or both. Any thoughts?

MC,

Sounds to me like you believe his love will keep you safe from his choices.

His love and belief in himself, his own self-respect, keeps you safe. Not love for you and hate for himself. Sounds to me like you choose to believe adultery is about you, is that correct?

LA

I don't know what it's about really. He says he doesn't know what it's about, but I keep telling him he's the only one who CAN know. He says he is angry with himself, but I don't think there is any self-hatred there. If there is, he hides it well. If he loves me and is happy with me, why would he keep letting it happen? Why would he keep letting these women inside his barriers and feeling emotional connections with them, giving them what should be mine and mine alone? I'm so confused and I just don't know how to handle this anymore.

Hi Merrycat!

I'm sorry that I didn't see your earlier post...

One of the things that Mrs. RIF and I learned from our MC was that I was to take Mrs. RIF's words at 'face value' and then watch her ACTIONS...

MC - You can't really trust your H's words as he's betrayed you multiple times... what you CAN do is watch his actions. He's telling you that he will change. OK, thank him for his words, then watch his ACTIONS...

Don't trust his words... it will take several months of solid ACTIONS by your H before you can even begin to trust him... there is nothing wrong with not trusting your H right now... you don't have to be 'sorry' for feeling this way.

Right now, the ball is in your H's court and it's HIS responsiblity to prove to you that his words are true by his consistent ACTIONS.

I hope this helps...

Semper Fi,

RIF

MerryCat,

I agree with everything RIF just said. I'm living it.

If you want to know if your husband loves you and really wants you in his life and values you, WATCH HIS ACTIONS. It'll take awhile before you can tell how he feels about you. I know it's hard to even comprehend that he loves you right now, but just watch and see. Give it time. Do you know what you need from your H to help you with this recovery? Have you told him? Is he receptive? What does he say, and what is he doing to make amends?

Was your husband EVER really intimate with you or did you two just float aimlessly in the marriage and not connecting?

I'm guessing your H has self esteem issues and is trying to get his self esteem from the wrong places. He needs to live a life he is proud of and get his esteem on his own, not from some tramp OW who will tell him he's great. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
He probably has issues going all the way back to childhood. Is he in individual counseling?

His patience, transparency, honesty, remorsefulness and actions.....those will tell you if he WANTS to love you. Those loving feelings usually come after the actions. Sounds bassackwards I know, but that's the kool-aid they drink here. Makes sense actually.

I know this is a difficult time for you. Try to take care of yourself, don't make any rash decisions, eat right and exercise and give yourself time to process all of this.

{{{{{{MC}}}}}}}

"I want to be with him, but I am so afraid he will cheat again. He's afraid he will, too, because he doesn't understand why he does it, but he says he doesn't want to."

He is afraid he will cheat again because HE KNOWS he is not yet willing to take responsibility for his problem, uncovering why he does it and making the changes to ASSURE it will never happen again. There may be moments in time when he says/feels he does not want to cheat again... but every single time he does cheat he does want to and does choose to. He knows the things he tells himself to give himself permission at those times; he knows what temptations he has to avoid, the justifications he has to stop telling himself. He's 'afraid' he will cheat again because he knows he isn't ready to stop indulging quite yet.

"I'm just having trouble letting go of the past and living each day as it comes, sometimes even being civil to him is hard. I feel like if I let it go and act normally, I am minimizing the hurt he has caused me. I want to talk about it constantly and I know he's getting tired of me harping on it, but I just feel disposable."

You aren't doing anything wrong. You are reacting normally to his cruelty AND to the fact that he has NOT YET shown proof that he's changed. You have to keep bringing it up because it is not resolved yet, and he has not repaired the damage yet, and he has not done enough to restore the trust yet. HE should be bringing it up and taking the lead in doing what needs to be done for full recovery.

"I feel like every time something in our marriage gets hard or he is not feeling fulfilled, he tosses me on the garbage heap and gets involved with someone else. Then he comes to his senses eventually, realizing that he doesn't want a divorce because I'm safe, familiar and divorce is messy and expensive and he's afraid he has too much to lose. I'm not sure he's staying with me for the right reasons. Then he pulls me out of the garbage bin, dusts me off and tells me what I need to hear for a while until he meets someone else who he thinks might give him what he needs and feels he isn't getting from me. I'm tired of being disposable. He says none of that's true, but how can I believe anything he says to me anymore?"

You can't believe what he says because he's lying. You have identified a pattern, you're not imagining it, it really is what it is. He is not yet willing to stop cheating so he denies it when you point out that you are onto his M.O.; he's trying to gaslight you - telling you that what you KNOW, because you have seen it repeatedly, is not really going on... it's just your imagination...

ALL the remorse and promises he verbalizes right now are just because he is in that part of the pattern when he comes back to you for sort of a break before heading off for his next OW adventure. (I believe my WXH ended it with the OW and came back to me whenever the adulteress started ot expect too much from him. Also, after spending lots of money and time on the OW my WXH would want to reconcile with me because he was broke and wanted to take a break from all that romancing effort.) It's an abusive cycle which you've seen often enough to see through now.

IMHO you should go to Plan B and stay there until he PROVES he has taken responsibility for his problem, has gotten counseling help with it, and has solved the problem.

He is telling you he doesn't know why he cheats and he doesn't know if he can stop. Eventually he will claim it is your own fault when he cheats on you because you KNEW it was going to happen again but YOU CHOSE to stay with him anyway. He probably has already been telling the OW that you know he cheats but you don't care...

At some point why he is doing this cruel thing to you, and whether or not he is likely to do it again, isn't even the issue anymore. Why are YOU willing to continue to put yourself through this tortuous cycle of abuse another time?

"Then he pulls me out of the garbage bin, dusts me off and tells me what I need to hear for a while until he meets someone else who he thinks might give him what he needs and feels he isn't getting from me."

Has it occurred to you that what he 'needs' is to treat another human being with cruelty, to be abusive? Maybe he says what he needs to say in order to keep you around because he needs a victim for the abuse? Maybe it's not just the adultery he gets a high from and is addicted to? Maybe he likes the ego boost he gets from you being so in love with him that you would even allow him to cheat with impunity? Maybe he gets some sort of sick pleasure from seeing you so hurt, scared, and obvously desperately in loev with him?

Detach into a very firm Plan B until he gets help. Do NOT have anythign to do with him until he can prove he has kicked his addictions to serial adultery AND to hurting you. Also, do NOT reconcile with him until YOU have stopped idolizing him, have shaken your addiction to him. Only after you have enough self-love, and self-protecting boundaries in place, should you try to reconcile with him.

YESSS!!! What Mopey said:

"Those loving feelings usually come after the actions. Sounds bassackwards I know"

It's called the consistency principle. Everyone knows we smile because we're happy BUT it is also just as true that if you smile first you will feel happier. When the WS 'feels' the OP was their 'soulmate' that is partly justification (I sure did act as if the OP was important to me... I was willing to risk giving up a lot for the OP... so the OP MUST be my 'soulmate'). But it is also a case of feelings following actions. Adulterers play-act at romance. They pour on the charm, show only the best aspects of themselves, they listen to each other, touch each other, flirt with each other, lavish lots of attention on each other, give each other little gifts and notes... and then are caught by surprise when 'oops - one thing led to another - it was not planned', they suddenly realize they are 'in love' with each other.

When you make love-bank deposits BOTH you and the recipient have more loving feelings towards each other! The adulterers make love-bank deposits in an escalating whirlwind cycle that increases their feelings of 'love' for each other because of what they recieve AND BECAUSE of what they GIVE.

IMHO one reason a serial adulterer values his faithful partner less and less over time is because of the faithful partner's faithfulness and willingness to settle for so little as recovery. The serial adulterer typically doesn't HAVE TO do very much to reconcile with the BS, and therefore DOESN'T DO very much for recovery efforts, and therefore DOES NOT 'feel' as 'in love' with the BS as they did with the OP. Contrast the attention, time, money, effort the BS puts into adultery with what a WS puts into reconciliation with their BS. (And THEN the WS usually complains about that minimal effort not being accepted by the BS as 'good enough' - BECAUSE it clearly is NOT enough!)

In fact whenever a WS whines about losing their 'soulmate' when the adultery ends, and is depessed because their BS doesn't make them 'feel' as good as the OP did, it should be an indication that the wS is being a slacker and not making enough love-bank deposits into the BS's love bank! Because making more depostis into the BS's love bank is THE very thing that will cause the WS to 'feel in love with' the BS.

Raise the bar lady, raise it HIGH! He will not cherish you if he can so easily re-acquire you each time he cheats. If he HAS to say AND DO all the right romantic stuff to WIN you back then his desire for you and feelings of NEED and LOVE for you will grow. If he HAS TO take responsibility for his problem and HAS TO get it fixed, he will respect you and will not want to risk losing you because he had to pay such a high price to keep you.

How much do YOU love yourself and respect yourself? Raise the bar. Inform him in a Plan B letter what the price is for admission back into a relationship with you. Then do NOT have any clearance sales in your future!

MC,

"I don't know what it's about really. He says he doesn't know what it's about, but I keep telling him he's the only one who CAN know."

Stop telling him and choose to believe he knows.

He knows he's the only one who can dig out his reasons, his whys and change his life.

I know how frustrating it is to hear the "I don't know"...I perceived my DH answering with it for nearly any question. He heard blame in my question...and not knowing felt blameless. DH took blame in as a crushes thing. Over time, DH began to take responsibility, instead.

I wouldn't say I didn't know...I would say what I thought, guessed at or wanted the truth to be...took time for me to work out my whys, too.

"He says he is angry with himself, but I don't think there is any self-hatred there."

I cannot imagine another way to serial adultery except through no self-respect or self-love. You may be correct. Might just be my experience, my filter.

"If there is, he hides it well. If he loves me and is happy with me, why would he keep letting it happen?"

I was asking you about your beliefs, which only you choose and live from. Sounds like you choose to believe he lets A's happen...instead of chooses them from fantasy to execution, choice of every step of the way.

"Why would he keep letting these women inside his barriers and feeling emotional connections with them, giving them what should be mine and mine alone?"

In my case, living through others all my life, self-abandoning, was the reason. I had no idea of barriers...I was earning love and punishment...so I dished it out in the same way...beliefs have flip sides.

"I'm so confused and I just don't know how to handle this anymore."

I believe that's your signal to stop handling and begin examining...your own beliefs...what you choose to live from and where your resulting feelings come from. So you can choose your life clearly.

I know that I am not sentenced to anything in this life...A's are choices I made, each time, with beginnings, middle and endings. Each step is a choice...staying aware and conscious...setting my boundaries and holding to them...really is about me...and learning I can honor my marriage even if I don't feel like honoring my DH.

Big part for me was seeing my pain coming in from the outside...mainly my DH...when it's my own pain, coming from me, my beliefs. Checking my beliefs and finding really old ones, not of my adult experience, aided me greatly in identifying why I permitted myself to cross healthy boundaries, without amends, generating my own fog.

So I choose differently.

And I stay aware of when I distract...as you said...when your WH experiences stress...many ways to distract, and fantasy was my automatic choice. Processing stress through denial (doesn't really process it). I also learned how much of a weight, felt crushing, it was to be the cause, control and cure for my DH's stuff...and he felt the same for mine. Seems like my repeated infidelities was trying to break that responsibility for my DH's feelings, thoughts, beliefs, perceptions...his stuff. In reality, I was breaking DH.

Learned the difference. Learned my choice. Learned I am not the cause, control or cure of anyone else...I cannot be responsible for what I have no control over. Made a huge difference in my life. I control my stuff...my job to know myself and share...to honor myself through choosing not to go to fantasy to self-soothe, not to deny reality, and to hold myself to staying honest, sharing my stuff with my partner. Respecting his choices as his own, as well.

I don't live in fear of my DH having another A...and he says he doesn't live in fear of me making that choice. We're three years out after 17 years together with several A's. Isn't proof of forever...sure is proof of right now...each day...choice by choice.

I know you're in hellacious pain...no doubt. I'm asking you to consider your own choices...what YOU believe...your own predetermined progressive boundary enforcements around you, about you...no longer doing the bad guy/good guy in your marriage. To change radically your beliefs from before, so you KNOW you'll be okay, no matter what HIS choices are in the future.

LA

Each time I've found out about an affair in the past he has changed for a period and things got better, but over time we slipped back into our old patterns. I guess I have made it too easy for him because I have taken him back three times (although there were affairs I didn't know about until this last confession). I guess all I taught him was that he wasn't really in any danger of losing me and he really didn't have to do much to get back in with me. He made changes for a while, but he knew they weren't permanent. I'm not saying I don't have some changes I need to make, too, though. We both need to set up some goals, boundaries, agreements about coming to one another with problems and being met without judgment or defensiveness, etc... I have told him this time that the changes will have to be permanent, for both of us. For example: He knows he can no longer have close personal friendships with women and that will be for the rest of his life. I asked him if he can live with it and of course he says he can . . . now. I can foresee that becoming a bone of resentment at some time in the future, though. I know he doesn't WANT it to happen again, but that's not enough. Neither is loving me. It never was in the past. I confronted him today with the "it just happened, it wasn't planned" defense. I told him in some way, even if he didn't have it scheduled or planned out in his head, they were ALL planned because he knew his weakness and he knew getting into potentially "dangerous" situations with women could and probably would lead to infidelity. He actually agreed to this to my surprise, although he did get somewhat defensive about it. He seems sincere right now, but I see us already sliding into some of our old patterns so we wrote some discussion points down and we will work on them as part of our nightly dialogues as we learned in Retrouvaille. All I can do is try right now.
Thanks for all your advice. Please keep it coming! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm guessing he agrees to a lot of things pretty quickly? And the fact that he agrees ends that particular conversation?

Then maybe later, he decides it was stupid to have agreed to whatever it was and does it anyway?

Those would be decisions based on emotions. Not usually thought out, only to make things feel better at that time. Though he may *feel* good about the agreement at the time and *try* to stick to it for a short period.

I can relate to those actions. I've done it plenty. Maybe he is too?

Actions over time will tell.

My FWH isn't in Bible college and we don't attend a church right now (we're not Christians but would atttend a synogague if we lived near one) He's currently stationed at Guantanamo Bay, he's been gone 7 monhts now and have 6 more months to go. Then we end up in Japan!

I knew he was changing when his actions followed up on his words. When he stopped blaming my weight and depression for his choices. When he stopped saying it was an "accident" and saying it was a "very bad choice." He took responsibility for his actions, finally, and I LET HIM. A few times I beat myself up so much for his choices and he saw that...and went along with me. My husband had at least 7 that I know of in the first 11 years of our marriage (we'll have been married for 15 this December 17th). Since my husband embraced a lifestyle that allowed him access and oppurtunity (let's say I will probably never visit Las Vegas), those numbers could be easily doubled. I, personally, don't dwell on those numbers. I understood what he was like when I decided to stay and work on recovery, I don;t care to know the details... for me it wouldn't help me, so I don't ask.

Here's the thing... although I know he is a changed man, I will never, ever believe he would never do it again. I am very sorry but its unbelievably naive of ANY BS to believe that, especially one that has a WH with such a huge character flaw. My husband had self-esteem issues and he really, really thrives on feeling attractive and admired. Thankfully he fulfills that with working hard now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have more answers for you, which I will write about later (I have to take my oldest to work and go eat with my parents).

Do not despair, things are not as impossible as they look.

Are you still married? If so, do you still fear you will do it again or do you know that you will never allow it to happen again? I'm feeling like a first class fool for taking him back again. Tonight I was just looking at his lips and suddenly all I could see was him kissing the latest OW. I think my husband could use some males who share his experiences to talk with if I could get him to come onto the site. I'm not sure he'd agree to do it, though.

my ex had multiple affairs.
we did not make it.
i could not handle my anger and resentment enough to continue to trying.

we had other issues as well, no marriage is perfect.
but the non stop affairs, nope. that depleted my love bank and put it wayyyy in the negative.

mlhb