I feel like I'm alone in this boat. It seems like everyone is either working on it, or leaving. IS anyone else in a "holding pattern" b/c you don't know what's best for the kids??

What exactly to you mean??? Do you want to know who is working at things for the kids???

Well, I can tell you that YES my number 1 motive is my kids. My children DESERVE to grow up in a houselhold with both of their parents. They DESERVE daily contact with both their father and their mother. If it weren't for the kids i'd just say f it! Not worth it. Thing is, I have a bond with this man that runs deeper than marriage, it's a biological bond through our children. He will forever be in my children's lives. Why not try to be together and try to raise these kids together, happily? So, yes that is my main motive.

My second motive is EX was my best friend. I have lost my best friend and want to have him back. I want to be able to talk to him everyday like we used to. Talk about our hopes and dreams for the future. Talk about the political and social environment. I want to cook for him, make sure the home is clean, make sure he is comfortable. I want him to give me those backrubs and leg rubs that he used to give me on those evenings whe we would lounge around in front of the TV. I want to go out biking, long bike rides like we used to do, sometimes with the kids, sometimes alone. I want to travel with him like we did when we didn't have the kids, explore new places together.

Mostly, I just want to share my life with him again.

That's exactly what I mean...but we're not really getting anywhere, and what if the only thing I can teach my kids about love is this disfunctional relationship with their dad?? I feel exactly the same way you do about my H. He's a great dad, and there's nothing worse than thinking about them not seeing he or I every day. But how long before "we're doing it for the kids" wears out? I know what he will do, but I won't cheat. I've pretty much detached from him with the hope that someday things will change...not very productive.

It is discouraging. I'm not detached yet, but S seems to have.

He says he wants what is best for the kids, but doesn't think that being together and raising this family together is what is best. And he's always been very stubborn. Doesn't help that the MC we saw agrees with him. I've been trying to convince him to the phone consultation with Jennifer Harley... he doesn't want to budge. His family sees things his way, which isn't helping at all.

I'm fighting this battle alone. I'm strong, but I don't know how long I can last. I wanted to last til March on Plan A, but not even sure I'll be able to last that long. He's going to have to show me some serious signs that he wants to make things work. Because right now he doesn't and this is the kind of battle that you can't fight on your own if you want a victory.

That's pretty scarey. My H is very concerned about image. His job is quite political and family is very hush-hush about dirty laundry. He would keep me around forever for the kids, but also b/c I make him look good. respectable family man...whatever. It's maddening. But, right now my kids are little and I need his help...who knows what the future holds, right?

My kids are older than yours, but because I work full time and have a pretty demanding job (although I've been less than fully functional the last few weeks) I need help at home. I just can't do it alone, at least not right now.

S's parents are together, but he has a younger brother who is divorced, who had part time custody for a year, and finally lost his part of the custody. He's been living the party life ever since <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> S's parents believe that it is important to live life to the fulleest and happily, whatever the costs. He was also raised to instead of working against an obstacle, to just go around it and choose another path. I always thought he was different from his family, but turns out he isn't.

S is surrounded by people at his job who are divorced, separated, rearranged families. Me on the contrary, have the opposite surroundings. I've been brought up very differently. I believe in stability, loyalty and that family and children is THE most important thing. It implies sacrifice, but brings much better results in the end.

Our ideals are totally different. If he never comes back, I don't want my children to learn to live this way.

So, I'm just curious-- are these new feelings or have you always felt this way? Did you feel this strongly about family values when you cheated? I'm not judging you, b/c anyone can slip..it's human. My H has always felt strongly about staying together despite everything, and I think he used this to justify the OW...he wasn't happy, but knew he would never leave and decided to have his cake and eat it too. I'm painfully honest, so I would probably reveal an affair before it even started.

The kids are a good reason to stay and try to recover the M. They should not be the only reason. And you do them no good if you stay beyond a reasonable attempt and then just live in misery. They need good role models of good relationships and interactions. If you give it your best shot (1-2 years) and it still isn't worth it, you can tell your children if they ever ask that you tried, but a well balanced single parent home is much better than a dysfunctional two adult home.

jm2cw

Fled

CSAHM,

What example do you want to give your children regarding their parents and marriage?

-LE

CSAH,

I began a post to you and caught myself because your registration date caught my eye...I went back to read your old threads..."same battles"...and that was a year and a half ago.

You say back in 5/2006 that he was finally being honest, more open and honest than ever...and by October of last year, you're saying he's never been honest.

As I read each post, I heard the same general thing...he won't change...he won't, will, does, doesn't...

Not you. You got lots of great advice...maybe someone did ask you, this, but I'm going to:

What have you changed about yourself to change your life? Not all or nothing...as you said, in between, where you watch vigilantly for your WH to change.

That's from my own perception...what have you changed in you...what new boundaries did dealing with infidelity did you make, predetermine enforcements for, and take? What new perspectives, beliefs and thoughts have you adopted from this long, intense adult experience?

Where is your radically new, different thought process which determines a new place for you to make choices and thrive, anyway?

You see his lies...you don't see your half of choosing to believe or not (not from what I read). He can't make you think, believe, perceive or view anything in a certain way...you choose. That's the balance of power...people can lie and we know they have, and do...and it's up to us to choose to believe them or not.

Our choice...not theirs.

Infidelity takes the WS believing a ton of their own lies...self-deception. Often, the WS will actually BELIEVE they are telling the truth...when they don't even know it themselves. They will lie to others and it won't be about others.

Won't be about you.

You sure can choose to make it about you.

Same for trust...WS have to earn their "F" by acting transparent, O&H, and define and enforce new personal and marital boundaries. Our half is deciding to trust...and we do that incrementally...all your WS lost was your blind trust...and that's what you lost, as well. Reading Harley, you now know it's not only NOT required for a healthy marriage, it's DETRIMENTAL to one.

Do you trust yourself? Do you regularly and progressively enforce your boundaries, own your half? Are you O&H? Do you respect your power and limits, knowing you are separate and equal to your partner...not completing him nor him completing you, like you're lacking...or he is?

That's what fills the middle of recovery...which does take time, and a lot of other new actions...and those who take really long recoverying most often stopped doing their new actions into new habits...fell into the old ways...or focused solely on the partner, not themselves...making them the problem, instead of having one.

I challenge you to pull your focus onto you...because you said that 75% of the time you felt like leaving; and the other 25% of the time you wanted to stay for your children's sake.

That was May of 2006, I think. Sounds like you're still there...which is reasonable, given you're waiting for him to do/say/change in some way? Look for the false payoff you get for the standing still, CSAH. When we find it for what it is, it makes changing ourselves easier.

LA

I would have to say that, initially, I longed for my husband, for how things USED to be, before all of this started, and naively thought that I would feel better quite quickly after FWH arrived home.

REALITY hit really hard. FWH was in withdrawal, and I was getting NO needs met. So, at that point, I redirected my reasoning for attempting recovery, and did factor my son's stability and happiness in a two parent, cohesive home VERY HIGH. I think it's a good reason to give it your all.

I do, however, want a happy marriage, refilled with love, respect, support, and FUN. I won't settle for less, but this requires a lot of time and work.

I think you need to examine this question throughout recovery. If your needs are not being met, you may be the next to stray, regardless of how much you love your family, the TAKER may take over.

I want my son to learn that we stick together and weather the ugliness, the storms, and do come out the other side, more knowledgable and more LOVING, outwardly, openly loving. If this doesn't happen, I'm out. I'm willing to give it the time to get there.

If I do not see a progression toward intimacy, I won't stay. I would rather be a single mom, than stay in a lovelss marriage, but I would also like to teach my son that you FIGHT for what you want, regardless of what the outcome may be.

[quote]single parent home is much better than a dysfunctional two adult home.

I guess it depends on what we determine as "dysfuncitonal". We don't fight in front of the kids, and we get along for the most part. We just aren't affectionate with eachother.

LA- I have set boundaries, and I've decided to pretty much detach myself at this point. When I put forth effort and try to supply his EN's I just become resentful b/c I see no change in him in response. Sure, he appreciates it and becomes more affecitonate physically, but the emotional dis-connection is still there.

I never know how he feels about anything. Completely non-commital and non-communicative. We have had some good phases, but I didn't see change in him despite my changes. I'm tired of waiting.

So, I guess my answer is yes, I've changed in that I expect nothing from him anymore. Do I give what he needs? No. I tried that, and I got more superficial-detached pretend marriage play. It's all a show. No real feelings. I need more than that from him.

I get more emotionally from everyone else I know than him. I see a patient for 2 weeks and know more about them than I know about my husband. I'm just really, really tired of it. I don't know what I'm looking for you all to say, just to know I'm not alone is helpful.

Is this
The type of loving relationship you wish for your children to have? Is this the type of M you want to be modeling for them? Our children learn to live life by watching us, which messages do you want them to have ingrained as their FOO (family of origin) issues?

FTS

FTS, ofcourse I want them to know about loving marriages. I know that our relationship will directly affect all of theirs in the future. That's why I'm freaking out right now. My kids are very young right now. They need their mommy and daddy at home. I think if 5 years from now, we're still unhappy, then I'll consider ending it for their sake. I think in the long run if we never work things out, staying together will NOT be in the best interest of the kids. But, for now we're both adults, and we're very careful about what we portray to our kids. We agree on how to raise them , and don't fight about anything in front of them. I agree with you, though. I'm still holding onto hope that we will someday be able to see eye to eye, but, as the years pass, I'm becoming more pessimistic....

CSAH,

Thank you for your response.

I believe you have set boundaries--I don't believe you've enforced them. Boundaries go around yourself, what your code is, what YOU live up to...and enforcements include ownership and amends.

When you don't enforce boundaries around yourself, you can't enforce marital ones. It's a two-way street that God devised in us...what we won't do for others, we won't do for ourselves. What we do for ourselves, we will do for others.

What I read was that you won't meet his ENs because he won't meet yours. That two-way street works for ENs and LBs, too...if you are giving to get the feeling of love...then you're in earning love mode. If that's your belief, that we can earn love from others...we can essentially make them love us, then you're in a fantasy loop. I can say that because I was in that loop...as was my DH. That loop leads nowhere. We kept trying to get the feelings of being loved and being in love...instead of looking at our beliefs.

When I learned love is a choice we make, and we act from, then we get those loving feelings, I stopped living backwards, trying to get the loving feelings to make me believe I loved. Freedom from that loop results.

When I act from love, I feel loving...thrilled with myself. I don't require my DH to meet my EN...he only does so from choice. Always did and will. I negated experiencing this reality when I assumed I could earn his love, was entitled to it...which was part of that fantasy loop.

And by earning love, I cut out all the great loving feelings which would have resulted from my own choice of actions, of acting love. I really starved myself that way.

Yes, loving detachment is necessary. Emotional disconnection is not. Tit for tat is the other side of giving to get. Makes our spouses our masters...he doesn't, so I won't...which really gives us the feeling of lonely...from abandoning ourselves...when we make our stuff dependent on THEIR stuff, we wipe ourselves out...and believe THEY are doing it to us.

They make us.

God made you, CSAH. He made you whole, complete and wonderful...you are made OF love. He made your H the same way, too. Doesn't mean we experience ourselves this way, or act as if we know we are...took someone else telling me of God's design for me to really get it...then I could see it.

My DH doesn't complete me. I don't complete him. We are two, separate, equal, whole human beings in a very human marriage. What I choose to do is from my own code...and no, I had not clue I was allowed to form my own code. I had only allowed others to tell me who I was; by loving me meant I was lovable.

So I cut off God's love, didn't I? I was really worshipping other humans...recreating myself through their eyes...and feeling erased, disrespected, unloved and unworthy for most of my life.

I was doing that, CSAH. That's what happens when you choose to believe we are powerful enough to earn love, instead of experiencing it from the inside out, the gift that it is, and part of our very existence. Inherent. Like choice.

We are made of love and given respect by our creator. He gave us choice...to even choose to love HIM. Huge choice...every moment of your life is CHOSEN by you.

This, to me, is what isn't in your marriage, hasn't changed, hasn't been owned. You believe your H changed you...when he's not that powerful. You retain the responsibility and the control of only you...that's your limit. And your power. Knowing what you decide from helps to eliminate indecision.

If you go for clarity, align your actions from your code, your marriage will change drastically...because YOU do.

There's personal recovery and marital recovery. I don't believe you can have one without the other. Our personal recovery is equally important...and only we can do it ourselves.

I would ask you to change what the next five years you are committing to in this marriage will be for you. If you commit to really studying, learning and embracing who you really are, how marriages really work (not how we were taught they do), how to live from respect, from love, and therefore experience respect and love...then the next five years may be very different from the last.

Fresh. New. Clean slate and partnership.

And each step of the way will build your self-esteem and self-respect...because you'll be able to tell the truth from your truth, from his truth, even from your children's truth as they grow.

There's a book called "Between Parent and Child" by Eincott, which really helps to discern one from the other. Helped me tremendously with my relationship with my sons, and even more, with my DH. And coworkers. Friends. Strangers.

When you change, your world changes. Not changing is hard...we gotta fight it, resist...feelings from this will feel like resentment, frustration and a lot of disappointment...the signal of powerlessness tells us that we aren't in the perspective or perception of our real power.

For we are not powerless over our own stuff...or our half of the marriage...which is equal to our partner's. We can feel helpless when we are believing, as we did when we were children, that we have no power. Often, we didn't, because we were dependent for our lives on our parents. And when in pain, we easily slip back into those old beliefs, see our lives through our child-like eyes...and remain adults with unchangeable power and limits.

You can do this...each brave act along the way will define yourself to yourself...you will be brave. Each loving act along the way will define yourself to yourself, and you will be love. Each respectful act...well, I think you can get the picture.

WhoDat said that Resentment was like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die. It's something we create in ourselves, through unreasonable expectations...really fantasy...from our belief we are entitled...which is fueled by resentment. Choose today to not do that which you will resent. And trace that resentment signal...see what belief it's coming from...often you'll find it's the giving to get signal...then you've identified the poison. Change your beliefs, change your life experience.

God wasn't kidding when he said ask and you shall receive...he respects us to ask...to choose...to learn to know...and grow. You can live in abundance instead of lack, simply by changing yourself, enforcing your boundaries, and knowing you already are love.

LA

LA,

Great stuff! I used to have a really hard time READING you, with Rin and others, but I am beginning to 'get' it now.

One quick question, how long, after you began understanding detachment and responsibility for your happiness and your half of the marriage, did it take for your M to begin to turn around, not necessarily thrive, but take a discernable turn?

IMO, what I fear, which I am trying to conquer, is that my efforts will not be met by my FWH, and our M will flounder.

It's sometimes very difficult to BELIEVE what you and Mimi and BR have said about detachment, and how it has worked in your lives. Has it worked because you are detached and place less emphasis on your spouses input, or has it worked because your spouses respond in kind, eventually?

I would be lying if I said I didn't hope that my changes may spurn some positive reaction in my FWH. Maybe this is my struggle; that I need to get to a place where his reaction or lack thereof no longer matters. I just can't see myself remaining in THIS current situation, not after years of hoping and waiting, and changing me.

I agree that focus needs to be on SELF, but M needs to be fulfilling and happy and safe for BOTH spouses. An imbalance is not healthy, IMO

LA-- you clearly speak from wisdom. But, honestly my self- confidence and sense of self are not in question. If you knew me, you would know I have never lacked self-confidence and I have always maintained my anonymity in this marriage. I am happy (thrilled) with my life and where I've gotten. I wouldn't trade my family, kids, career, home for anything. The only thing that causes me any pain is my marriage and my fears for the future of my marriage.

I would definitely agree with the resentment issues, though. I go through stages where detaching is really working for me, and then there are days when I wear my resentment on my sleeve and I hear myself talking to friends and think "WHO IS THIS??" I check myself, shut myself up and move on. I know the type of woman I don't want to be and that's the angry, resentful man-hater. I don't hate men. I don't hate my husband. I hate that his disregard and detachment from his life can get under my skin sometimes, but like I said, I'm trying to control that. Every day I wake up and I thank God for everything that I have. I don't ask for more. I know my happiness is up to me. And for the most part, my life is complete.

I hear everything you're saying and I totally agree. For me detachment has been lonely, but caring has been even more lonely. H is detached no matter what. Whether I shower him with love or talk about the weather or kids for 6 months, his affect does not change AT ALL. He has always been this way, but for some reason it's more difficult to swallow now. Anyway, thanks for the advice. I'm signing off...gotta do the early shift with the kids as H is off to run in the Marine Corp Marathon this weekend. Good Night.