RIF, good suggestions all and I must certainly learn to communicate displeasure without LBing so that WW feels safe with me at all times. So far I've got a failing grade on that part of MB principles.

You surely must know that public displays of affection between the opposite sexes in the Middle East is frowned on to the point that people can be arrested. Displays of affection between men in public are perfectly okay, of course but not helpful to me.

So for now, I'll have to display affection in private or in a car. All the other things are great suggestions and I am having my daughter bring me some cards, so that I can write love notes to WW. I think she'll love that. I'll try leaving her a note in the morning and see what she thinks of that.

I'd like to solicit the help of any other MBers. I need all the help I can get. Are there any websites that deal in expressions of love and affection?

Hey Hurt!

Wow, I completely forgot about where you're living... sorry about that...

We have "Man-Love Thursdays" over here... it's pretty wild to see two guys hugging and holding hands...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Try the website lovingyou.com for some ideas.

RIF, I'm sure hoping this Man-Love Thursday doesn't involve NATO personnel! WW and I tried some mild public affection last night in a neighboring country that is slightly more liberal about contact between the sexes. The problem I have now is that Mrs. Hurt is telling me she really doesn't want to touch me that much. She also told me she has zero interest in SF and is developing an aversion. Great!! My plan is to back off a little and keep trying to Plan A her although I am discouraged. Anything like this happen with you and Mrs. RIF?

Thanks for the tip, LS. I'll check it out.

Back off a little and meet her needs other than SF. She is probably still in withdrawal, but should come around.

Most women crave affection that doesn't lead automatically to sex. Talk to her, praise her good points, touch her, rub her back or feet, hug her and put the SF on the back burner.

And STOP the LB's. Those are deadly.

Hey Hurt,

Man-Love Thursdays are for the local Afghan "girly-men". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

The lack of physical touch is probably just a symptom of her withdrawal... give her some space and continue to show her affection with your words and cards and notes...

The physical part will come with time. You might want to talk with Steve about this and see if he has any advice for you.

Semper Fi,

RIF

believer, I am becoming a champion foot and back massager. She's not liking the hugs so much, hand holding the same, no kisses beyond friendly pecks. I've offered for her to determine when SF will happen and for her to decide when to proceed. SF is pretty far down on her list of ENs. We've been having really good conversations recently, finding out things about each other that we never knew which doesn't seem possible but there you are. I hope we're getting closer but who knows. WW says she is confused about what she feels but won't discuss the confusion. Right now I'm just trying to be patient and meet her ENs while avoid LBing.

I sent her a romantic e-mail and she told me I should be a poet. So that felt pretty good. I'm hoping she's coming around some.

Thanks for the help and I welcome more.

Hey Hurt,

This is purely speculation on my part, but based on my experiences with Mrs. RIF, I'll bet that her "confusion" is the fact that she really appreciates your new actions, but she's still not sure that you are making these changes "for real"...

It took me several months of consistent, loving actions to show Mrs. RIF that I wasn't just making changes in order to manipulate her... yeah, doesn't sound very fair does it? ...and it sure isn't much fun when you first start off. Heck, I wasn't the one that strayed from the M, and there I was doing ALL of the work...

Hang in there... work on meeting your W's ENs as best you can and don't expect ANYTHING in return. Your goal here is to prove to your W once and for all that you ARE changing... as she gets more comfortable with you and realizes that you are really changing and not trying to manipulate her... I think you will see her open up more.

Semper Fi,

RIF

what RIF said!!!

You have to show those changes consistently over time and WW will heed.

Women are so romantic.

Keep up the cards, flowers, compliments. It helps a whole lot. Well, anyway, it would work for a lot of gals. Oh, and if you get back together, keep it up, FOREVER. LOL!!!

Be consistent. Make those changes permanent.

God Bless,
Love in Christ,
Miss M

I vowed that right after D-Day at the end of October, when I first read about MB , that no matter what happened between WW and me, that I would change for the better and I believe I have. I'm listening more and talking less with everyone not just WW.

One thing I've learned from Plan A so far is that I can get a lot of pleasure from showing Mrs. Hurt that I love her. It was foolish of me to have ignored both of our needs for romance for so long. So I'm getting into this wooing business and trying to learn more about it. I will be a better person the rest of my life for learning about MB.

I believe RIF might be right about WW's ambivalent feelings for me right now. When I wrote to WW to tell her I can deal with her "aversion" to me she called me to say that was too strong a word so I'm thinking it's more like RIF says - she is just fence sitting waiting to see if I'm sincere. I hope time will show her I am.

Thanks for the advice, folks.

Hey Hurt!

One of the interesting things that I learned when I started applying the MB principles of Plan-A was that the more I worked on trying to meet Mrs. RIF's ENs... the more I enjoyed it. It's hard to be angry with someone when you're trying to be "nice"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


I think "Fence Sitting" may be too strong of a description here. Your W has sent the NC letter... so I think the proper term would be "In Withdrawal".

Time WILL tell that your efforts ARE making a difference right now... whether you can see them or not.

I'll be "off the net" for a while as I fly home tomorrow morning for my R&R. I'll check back in once I get home but won't be on the night-shift until mid-January.

Hang in there Hurt! You're doing a great job!

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks for the support and encouragement RIF, and have a safe flight and a great Christmas. Our family is going to be here together in the ME for the first time in four years if my son can get out of the snow today in the States.

Hopefully, this will be a Christmas of recovery for our M.

All the best to you and yours.

You're welcome!!!

I'm glad that you will have your family with you...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Sounds good. Withdrawal should not last long. Just tough it out. And be sure to eliminate LB's. When you feel angry just come here and vent. Don't say it to her. We understand.

Thanks, believer. I've vented here before, I'll do it again. The best thing about my LBs so far is that Mrs. Hurt is feeling so guilty, she expects them. As
RIF pointed out above, WW has a difficult time understanding how I can be nice to her, when she hurt me so bad. We had a discussion about it the other morning at 04:00 AM, and she finally is beginning to understand that it is because I embrace the MB principles and because I have changed. She is a little hazy on what the MB principles are so far, especially Plan A, because she is a "feeler" not a "reader" as SH has pointed out but she is learning in her own fashion. She keeps asking, "How can you bear all the pain, anger, and resentment?" and I keep telling her that it is part of the program, that eventually those feelings will fade (and have some), and that I have to believe it will work for it to work. I also keep telling her that I don't want to be the person I was, because look where it got me. I think she is beginning to believe as well but part of the problem was withdrawl, fog and the fact that I had a headstart with MB.

I vowed to her that I will never hurt her again but have not strictly kept my vow so far but she says she understands.

Well folks, I'm confused. Last evening while traveling to the airport to pick-up our son, WW said I shouldn't try so hard to be affectionate, that simple "nice" would do. She says that all the things I'm doing don't seem real to her, that I'm not me. I told her I'm not the me I used to be.

Then just before going to the airport, she says couldn't we have an M without romance, just be affectionate, have SF, and care for each other without being "in love"? At first I responded by saying let's just give romance a chance. But just before DS arrived, I said, in the interest of being honest, no, living like a brother and sister shouldn't be what our M is about. That we can't just wait for her to get so frustrated enough from not having romantic love to have another affair. (She thinks she will avoid affairs in the future through willpower). She was unhappy with my response but we haven't had much of a chance to talk about it since DS and DD came home with us last night, but just before we went to sleep, I said the answer is in these MB books (on our headboard) and on this website if she will just pursue it and believe what the Harleys offer.

This is the first time, WW has let me know what she is really thinking and the first time she has mentioned the future, so I take that as a very good sign that at least she feels there is a future, however bleak. I'm hoping the rest is just fogspeak but I can't tell if she is still in withdrawl except for her indifference to my attempts at affection. Her NC letter was mailed yesterday.

I'm thinking about the analogy someone made on another thread about dropping stones in the water and they just disappear until finally after about 500 rocks disappear finally one appears above the surface. Am I just dropping stones for now without any visible results?

My plan is to just be patient but should I back off on the notes, flowers, hugs, etc,? I like doing these things and I've told her they give me pleasure. She says it all just feels so strange.

Advice anyone?

I don't know that these kinds of talks are productive.

I assume you are still speaking with Steve?

You know, if you continue meeting her needs, she will be in love with you and will be happy to meet your needs. I think the message she is sending you is she is not in love with you (NOW) and doesn't feel inclined to meet your needs but is happy for you to use her body.

That will change as her feelings change.

Yes, BK, I am still speaking with Steve (appointment later today) but WW is taking a break from MC while the kids are with us. Not my choice, but an indication of her ambivalence about MB dealings. I don't think she is happy to let me use her body but she is putting up with it because she knows it is my number one EN.

The message I received from her is that she doesn't want her feelings to change toward me. She wants to return to the M we had before where we kind of coexisted. While she says she is done with her wayward ways, I believe that subconsciously, she believes she can checkout any time with a new lover.

I agree that these kind of talks are not productive, but she brought up her feelings and plans for the future for the first time last night and here we are. I'll discuss it with Steve for sure b/c I have to sort out my own feelings as well. I'm committed for now and willing to let her have all the time she needs to respond. She is definitely not in love with me now and seems to be telling herself that it should be all right if she never falls in love with me again.

This seems to be an unpredicted development.

MB folks, happy holidays. I haven't posted in awhile because we have been busy with both of the kids here for the holidays for the first time in four years. It was very pleasant spending time with the family but I can't tell what WW is thinking. The couple of "serious" discussions we had she brought up the "divorce" word both times. She says I am stronger than her, that she still doesn't know what she thinks and that she was upset that I hurt the feelings of our children. I apologized for what I thought I should apologize for with regard to the children. I'm beginning to see that we have raised some very self-centered young adults.

Anyway, it appears that if I LB with the kids, WW treats it if I did it to her. She was very happy with her Christmas gifts and I was hoping that we were starting R but it seems that we are stuck in a holding pattern, nothing too negative, but also little or no progress.

Is this normal? We will start MC with SH again after the holidays so I am hoping we can get kick started again. WW is in penance mode providing SF with as little involvement as possible and says she will avoid future A's with will power which I believe she has very little of especially now that she knows how easy it is to start an affair. In our reading she is starting LBs and I am into FILSIL but for the life of me I can't see what she absorbs from reading the books which she calls "your books". I guess I should be happy that we sleep together, there has been NC that I can tell, and that we slowly seem to be making progress.

Ideas or advice, anyone? I am trying to be patient.