...severely damaging your M in the process and putting you in the humiliating position of being a BH. That friend is NOT a friend to your M. She's certainly not YOUR friend.



...yet you feel uncomfortable around her - for good reason. She may portray a nice image to you, but you know her actions suggest otherwise.



In other words, just forget about commitments and responsibilities and follow your own selfish desires.

We are negative, because most of us cant believe our spouses cheated on us and had the same attitude about them as you are having with your wife.

My EX wife was also an active member of our former church and she had a long term affair with a minister in the church, whose wife was also ministered in the church.

So, as you can see, it would be very wise to think that your wife is any different than any other cheater on this planet. Cheaters lie and that is just the way it is.

The folks on this board are just warning you to not be naive, because your heart can be crushed during this process.

Dude, posters are hammering you because they've either been there and done that, or have been on these boards long enough and SEEN enough to know what they're talking about. They've heard the statements your WW (wayward wife) makes. They've seen the statements and actions that BS's (betrayed spouses) like yourself make in response. And they've seen the usual outcomes - which are most likely going to be relapsed cheating, or at the very least a non-recovered marriage.

Understand? These folks have seen it often enough that they know where you're headed. Everyone who comes here thinks their case is special somehow - that they can change and make their wayward spouse happy, that their love is strong enough to change the relationship, that now that we've talked about it everything will be okay. And most people who actually stick around and LISTEN will quickly realize that they are NOT special; their case is NOT unique. They will recognize the commonalities between their own experience and those of others.

To try to answer your question, "the fog" is the state of mind of the wayward spouse. It's like doublethink - the ability to have two conflicting beliefs at the same time. The mental gymnastics required to somehow rewrite marital history to make the BS the bad guy, and to somehow justify the WS's adulterous actions. To simultaneously believe they don't want to hurt the BS while giving oral to a guy in a parking lot. Get it now?

There is a BS fog too, where the BS really wants to believe that everything is going to be okay. Not wanting to monitor your WW's phone, internet, and other activities is a form of BS fog - you're exhibiting blind trust for someone who has already proven themselves unworthy of that trust.

There is an article on plan A and plan B that go into the fog concept more - link: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Good luck, and don't be put off by what you think is negativity. Again, these folks have either seen or read it all. They are trying to prevent you from making well-known mistakes.

The decision to cheat was 100% hers. If your M wasn't going well, she could have chosen to do something else, like separate, or divorce. But she CHOSE to cheat. This is a character issue of hers that SHE has to deal with, and NOT blame you for her choice.

If she doesn't deal with her reasons for cheating, it will likely happen again, and she'll find something else that time to blame for her poor choices. BT, DT!

Thanks for the detailed reply.

So what do you (or anyone) suggest? The consensus seems to be that all is lost - that a one-time cheater and liar will always cheat and lie again. Clearly no one is suggesting that I give up and file for divorce, right? Clearly a marriage can survive infidelity, can't it?

For the record, my wife has never, ever tried to rewite our marital history. She has never blamed me for anything, nor has she accused me of leading her down the path of cheating - nothing like that at all.

Remember yourself a few months ago? You know, the guy that thought his marriage was on a different plane from everyone elses? The guy that bragged about his wife and that everyone thought had the "perfect marriage"? Remember that guy?

Look at him now, he's turned into the guy that thinks his adulteress wife that gives hummers to strangers at book stores is somehow different and better than everyone elses adulterous spouse. So much so that she deserves trust and privacy!

You wakin up yet?

Honestly, I want nothing but the best for you, your blog rang so true to me, its exactly the feelings I went through. Do NOT continue to fool yourself about this. Are we negative? I guess that depends on your perspective. We're all here because in one way or another we've been down (and are still on) this path you're getting ready to walk. Take heed brotha.

If nothing changes - if you take no action and she has no motivation to change her behavior - then yes, all is probably lost. If you try a "do it yourself" marital recovery then you will likely fail.


Correct, no one is suggesting that. If you and WW had no children then you might have a few people suggesting that to you.


Yes.

Here's what you can do - read the threads at the top of the 'just found out' forum (this one) by WorthATry and Longhorn. Those are good general purpose toolkits.

Get yourself a copy of 'Surviving an Affair'. You can get it through this site, on Amazon, or in your local bookstore - preferably not THAT one.

Read the other materials on this site, particularly on the emotional needs questionaire, love busters, and the plan A/plan B link I gave you.

Ask your WW to write a 'no contact' (NC) letter, show it to you, and then she mails or emails it. You can find a template elsewhere on the site. Basically she can have no contact with the other man (OM) ever EVER again for ANY reason.

Understand that you will need to monitor your WW to make sure she sticks to NC and doesn't contact OM. Watch her email, phone, IM, and internet browsing logs. Make sure she lets you know when she's going somewhere, where she's going, with who, and when she'll be back. You may consider installing a keylogger on the computer so you can find any secret email accounts she may have.

Don't tell her about the keylogger. You may not want to tell her about this site yet; there will be varied opinions on that.

I'll see if I can drum up some experts to help you form a plan.

MWH,

There IS a need for privacy in a marriage.

Closing the door while using the bathroom is PRIVACY.
Leaving the door closed while changing clothes is PRIVACY.
Planning a surprise party for your spouse and hiding it from them is PRIVACY.

Keeping email passwords from your spouse so you can discuss them in a disrespectful way with friends is SECRECY.
Having an on-line relationship that you feel you must hide from your spouse because you know it isn't right is SECRECY.
Quickly closing your browser window when your spouse enters the room so he/she doesn't see what you are up to is SECRECY.

There IS a need for PRIVACY within marriage.

There is NO room for SECRECY in marriage.

If you are doing something you KNOW your spouse does not approve of, you should not be doing it, not hiding it.

If your spouse is hiding things he/she is doing from you, it is because it is something they KNOW you would not approve of and therefore they should not be doing it.

FWIW, the issue isn't simply one of communication but one of honesty and openness, independent behavior and lack of respect. It is a matter of lack of care for the feelings and emotions of a spouse under the excuse of our own desires.

Please be certain that you have read all of the basic concepts and ask questions about anything you may not understand fully or find that you even disagree with. If you want to rebuild your marriage into one less likely to be vulnerable to an affair in the future, get a copy of Fall In Love/Stay In Love from the bookstore on this web site (Other sources for it are available, but the price here is good and it helps Dr Harley to pay the bills for this forum.) Also read the top few threads pinned to the top of the Just Found Out forum as they will clear up the abbreviations and such as well as give you a quick intro to the road to recovery from infidelity.

It is critical that you understand ALL of the basic concepts because there are things you will be advised to do that are counterintuitive and (show of hands) many a betrayed spouse (BS) has come here and argued repeatedly, "But our situation is different/unique/not like that/something else," only to find out too late that we're all pretty much in the same boat and have experienced the same things. All that ever changes is the names and places, the rest is pretty much from a standardized script.

The EN questionnaire can be of great value, but only within context of the rest of the plan to rebuild the marriage. The love buster questionnaire goes hand in hand with that and the reason for both is the concepts of the love bank, emotional needs and all the rest contained in the basic concepts.

And just my opinion, you should not assume nothing is still going on based solely on what she tells you. You must be able to verify what is really going on yourself by independent means before trusting her to be telling you the truth.

So now that I've crashed all over you, let me tell you that the likelihood of rebuilding your marriage into one that can make you both feel safe from a recurrence is quite high, if you follow the steps Dr Harley recommends, but if you want to follow your own advice, it might be a long lonely road.

Trust where trustworthiness has been exhibited.
Believe what you can verify.
Forgive what has been confessed.

I like your blog, BTW, but you probably want to give a synopsis here with more details than you have shared so far for people like me who have no time to read your life story. (Us old guys like things in neat packages that way) Don't get me wrong, I'm going to read your blog, but many will not dig into it to get the answers to their questions to figure out what they might be able to tell you that would help, and in that case you would be missing out on a lot of expertise that exists here.

How long was did this affair last? Was it a ONS or something longer? Where and how did they meet? Has real no contact begun or do they still have contact with each other? How long have you been together? Do you have any kid's?

The answers to these question matter because you will get differing advice for example if she is working along side this guy rather than having run into him at a bar while out of town someplace.

As already said...Welcome to Marriage Builders.

Mark

Trust, but verify...

My FWW was a deacon in the church for 5 years. NO ONE would have EVER thought...but she's become involved at least 3 times that I know of, with other men.

Accept the passwords, and all that. Then, install a key logger on the computer so you can see if she starts another e-mail account, and see whatever else it is she might do via the computer. DO ask her to provide you info on her whereabouts, and ask for return times, etc. when she leaves the house.

Women TYPICALLY have some, or a lot of emotion in play when they perform sexual acts for someone other than their husband. Those feelings will linger, through what we call Withdrawal. ANY further contact with the OM is totally unacceptable. The best friend who might have served as a cheerleader/enabler for this A should be considered a constant threat to your marriage.

The information you are receiving here may come with some harsh and even hurtful words, but ALL A's are typical, and those of us who've been posting for a few years have seen the very same scenarios play out over and over. Everyone means well, and all of us are trying to save you further heartache.

Please pay more attention to the "messages", and less attention to the style of delivery, for your own good.

Best wishes,
SD

MWH,

I've scanned your blog a bit. I will get around to reading it all, but suffice it to say that your story is the same as every BS (betrayed Spouse) to ever post here, in that your feelings are all over the place, you question everything about your marriage, your life and even your own ability to make choices and judge others, especially your wife.

You find yourself on a roller coaster with no end in sight. This is how we would all describe it.

I come back to reading what is here on this site. Read the basic concepts. Read the threads by Longhorn and Worth A Try. Read the Q&A columns concerning infidelity. Read the book Surviving An Affair. Read the post on GQII by me that I'll link below and read it, following the links for resources here and on other sites as well.

You need a specific plan to recover your marriage and this site can help, but only in so far as you buy into the ideas and methods here.

Don't take anything for granted because you always felt like your marriage was good. My wife was on the worship team at church. We were both leaders in the church. Our marriage was the one others pointed to as an example of what a marriage should be. Affairs change EVERYTHING about a marriage.

Read this>>> <Some links for you> and follow the links I have included within it to the posts by WAT, Longhorn, Bob Pure and others. Study and learn what lies ahead and prepare for it so you can act from a plan instead of reacting to what comes along as it happens.

The most important thing you can do right now is to be sure NO CONTACT is a reality.(That’s none, nada, zilch, zip, nyet, nein, nol, null… less than any) Any contact of any kind sets things back to the beginning every time it happens. Try to get her to write a NC letter (templates can be found on this site - the best is Dr Harley's in his Q&A columns.)

This is not a sprint and things will never be "like they were" but that seems to have not been as good as it was perceived so now is the time to make it better than before. The road to recovery with both spouses working hard at it is typically about two years. You will have ups and downs, good days and bad, a round of self doubt at about 6 months and a reevaluation of your own needs around a year after it all began. Dates, times, events, even television programs will take on new and unwanted meanings.

But if you hang tuff and do what it takes, you can look back in your twilight years and smile knowing that the marriage you ended up with was worth the battle. Just don't sell yourself short on your own pain and resentment because it will eat you alive if you pretend it isn't happening.

And FWIW, you suggested that you might need to see a counselor yourself. Do it! And good luck on the infidelity diet you describe on your blog. I think we all lost weight as the result of that one.

Mark

Concur with MyRevelation and many others here.

Every situation is NOT UNIQUE - that always makes me laugh. Trust me midwest, your story has been told here over and over again.

You should not trust your wife - trust is earned and blind trust is gone for good.

Of course you can recover and your marriage can survive infidelity. But WISHING and HOPING is not a plan and is doomed to failure.

Harley HAS a plan. Have you read his basic concepts and his infidelity FAQ's? They will help you build a brand new marriage where your wife will not cheat again.

The only place a married person needs PRIVACY is in the bathroom!! There should never be anything that she needs to do (besides the above) or say that couldn't be done or said in front of you.

Take it from a former wayward wife (FWW), in the beginning it made it almost easier for me to maintain No Contact knowing that my laptop was "bugged" and that records were being reviewed of my cell phone contact, etc. My husband had access to everything and you know what? I am so glad he did, because when I had those moments of wanting to break NC, I was held accountable...it got me through the withdrawal period and kept me true to my word. It's now been nearly 2 years, and I have a new laptop, but I would still have NO PROBLEM with him installing a keylogger today.

People who aren't doing anything wrong have NOTHING to hide.

Period.

As I've talked about before, my wife's best friend knew about everything before, during and after it happened. I was none the wiser. I've mentioned this before. But it's worth repeating. Because circumstances now require it.

This friend of hers knew that my wife was having severe marital problems. And yet she never encouraged her to talk to me about them. I've never understood that. It just boggles my mind. My wife loves this woman and would heed her advice. I know that if this friend had pushed her a bit to confront me with the problems she was having at the time, my wife would have done it in a heartbeat. This friend has enough pull with her to do that. And had she done that, none of this ****** would have happened - no cheating, no nothing. We would have begun our healing process without all of the added [censored]. Does that bother me? ****** YEAH!

One other thing about her is that even after I found out about her cheating, and after my wife and I began to mend our marriage, she still ENCOURAGED her not to close any doors. She ENCOURAGED her to explore other options, in addition to me.

Now you tell me, what kind of friend is that? My wife had already decided to work with me to fix our marriage. And here she is saying to her "not so fast."

Now you tell me. How am I supposed to react to that? How the ****** am I supposed to be ok with that? How am I supposed to be accepting of her after she's done something like that?

Don't get me wrong. This friend is a nice person. But in my opinion, she made some unforgivable errors in judgement. So now I'm left with extreme resentment towards her. Is it justified? I think so. No, I know so!

Last Friday, my wife and this friend both attended some sort of expo where women were selling crafts and things. Since my wife had only seen our two kids for about 30 minutes that day, I was going to surprise her by stopping by and hanging out for awhile. But that was before I knew that her best friend was going to be there too. I'm no longer comfortable around her. So my surprise was scrapped. And we stayed home.

This friend has a party every three or four months. We're always invited to them. And she has one tentatively planned in a few weeks. I've said very little about it. For one thing, I thought we probably couldn't attend anyway, as my wife would be working that night. Unfortunately, we found out yesterday that she has that night off.

Great. Now this forces me into a confrontation that I was hoping to avoid. I have no intention of going to that party. I just can't. I would be very uncomfortable and not happy. And I don't think I would be really good at faking it in this situation. If my wife wants to go, that's fine. I have no problem if she wants to hang out and have a good time. I wish I could do it with her. But I just can't. So how do I break it to her? I know she'll be disappointed in me. She may even resent me for it. She may even think that I'm "punishing" her for her indiscretion. I don't know what to do. But I'll probably just avoid it as long as I can.

So am I wrong to feel this way? Am I justified by my desire not to be around this woman?

MWH,

All I can do is tell you how I handled basically the exact same situation with my WW's encouraging best GF ... I made NO CONTACT with BGF a boundary necessary for my agreeing to R.

It was actually harder to get my WW to agree to NC with the BGF than it was the OM, but NOW in "FogFree" hindsight, WW agrees that BGF was toxic and NOT a friend of the marriage and understands how her negativity was affecting WW's perception of the state of our M pre-A.

I think the BS gets to establish the conditions for R. We were the ones who unknowingly were put in this situation ... NOW we get to set up the ground rules for the future. If you're not comfortable being around this "friend", then you don't have to be around her and neither should your WW if she is trying to rebuild your M ... its all about priorities, and for me, IF I wasn't priority NUMBER 1, then I wouldn't be interested in R.

I agree with MR. I wouldn't want your WW having any further contact with such a toxic person.

Actually, I would go to the party and tell that "B" just what I thought of her. But that's just me... LOL!

I can't believe someone would tell their friend to "explore their options" when they're married.

It never ceases to surprise me how many people have no moral compass!!

Good luck!!