I've noticed in my own situation, as well as some others posted here, that often the WS does not trust the BS. I don't mean like they think the BS is having a revenge A or anything. Rather like when the BS says "I don't think you'll be happy if you go down this path". The WS always seems to think the BS is trying to manipulate them, as opposed to assuming they have actually thought about it and really don't think they will be happy.

It seems to me the WS is constantly "reading between the lines" with the BS and never takes anything at face value. Pre A, my WW was not like this. As an example, pre d-day if I said, "I'd like to go to the store with you", she just assummed I wanted to go to the store with her. Now if I say the same thing she assumes I just want to go to keep tabs on her. Now sometimes this is true, but other times I really just want to go to the store with her. And if she asks me I will tell her the truth either way. But it doesn't seem to matter what I say, she assumes she knows what the truth is and if I say that's not the case, she assumes I'm lying.

It is very much like my WW now thinks she has magical powers and can read my mind. She seems to assume my every word and action is wrapped up in either busting her or getting her to come back to the M.

I really don't get this lack of trust, because I was always pretty open and honest in the past, and I'm not the one that had an A.

Anyway, this causes problems all over the place, so what do people think causes this. Is it guilt? Guilt over what they've done? Guilt over what they are doing? Is that once somebody goes for so long pulling the wool over other people's eyes that they don't believe anyone is trustworthy? Is it if your manipulating people you assume they are doing the same? Is it an over inflated ego?

Finally, any tips on how to get my WS to "believe" what I say? Could there be something I'm doing wrong? Anybody experience something similar?

she trusts you ... she doesn't want you interfering is her comings and goings though. This is a typical bully tactic by WS to get BS to back off. That your wife is still acting like this should greatly concern you. I would bet that she is having an affair of some sort or another.

You've already identified some of the reasons WS's do this.
Here's another one: they're addicts and assuming everybody is out to prevent them from getting that next fix. They don't care that somebody is honestly trying to help them get off the self-destruction path for even the best of reasons, even if the person trying to help them won't benefit themselves from the advice being followed. The only thing important to them is that next fix.

As many folks have already posted here, many a time:
You can't teach a WS anything while they are still in the fog.

And you can't worry about how they feel or react to your Plan - just stick to your plan.

rprynne, do you seriously not understand what is really going on here? This has absolutely nothing to do with lack of trust. Surely you know this.

If they are mistrustful of their BS, its projection of themselves as cheats.

rprynne,
Sorry your having to deal with this.
For good or ill .........Its NOT you.
Its Them.
In part ...Its called Faulty Thinking.

For sure,
One of the reasons persons that lie end up distrusting Others, is that they mistakenly THINK other people act/behave like they do.

Truly,
When you are always thinking and scheming of ways to mislead, manipulate or down right deceive .....you can't help but have the prism that you view the world through be affected and tainted. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Indeed,
When you KNOW in your heart that You Would do horrible and dishonest things to those in your life [for your Own Selfish desires] ..... you Unfortunately tend to assume that type of a MindSet is the one EVERYONE works with . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Most times they sadly believe that "everyone" does it (so let me *get* you before you can do it to me).
OR at the very least, questioning "what's your angle??" in every situation or conversation.
[Which is both draining and tiresome for the NON-Lying partner].

Wrong thinking of course ......but it is what it is.
Remember logic is out the door when dealing with selfish people. [Shrugs]

My WH says he doesn't trust women anymore. Claims I tell him what he feels & then he turns around & tells me how I feel. That the only reason I want to know something about him or go do something with him is to see if he's still seeing her. Because I'm a sneak & a manipulator.

He actually thought that not seeing her was the end of the A. That talking to & texting her was ok & that it meant the A was over. HA!

When he told me he didn't trust women, I told him I hadn't done anything to make him not trust me. I always told him what I was doing, where I was going & who I was with. When the A started, that meant I was getting in his business & keeping tabs on him & he said he didn't care about what I was doing. Typical Fogspeak.

They don't trust because they can't be trusted.

Mel and Medc,

I just can't be in denial and I'm not going to talk about conflict avoidance. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've been dying to say that line.

Seriously, I really struggle with giving examples because folks seem to latch onto that one example.

I'm acutely aware of what is going on in my own sitch and I'm just fine with my current plan. I don't snoop, spy, monitor, etc. anymore. I've done that for too long and I don't need to do it anymore. I'm confident that the only proof that there's no funny business going on is if my WW moves home. What the funny business is, I have no idea. I have no false hope, no pining expectations. To say it best, I do what I think is right for me, when I think it is right for me and WW can do the same. I'm detached from the outcome.

So my question is a curiosity more than anything else, and the above paragraph is perhaps a better example. I have said exactly what I wrote above to WW and it bounces off. Now as many would have said or alluded to, if her lack of trust in me is a reflection of her furthering an adulterous objective why would she not believe the above?

I have also seen similar things in other stories posted here. The WS says for months, "you and the kids will be better off with out me". Then when the BS finally says "yeah, we will be better off without you", and the WS doesn't believe they mean it. Why is that?

I've got my own thoughts on the why, just wanted to hear others. When I ask if there is something else I can do, I'm just trying to clarify if I could be sending mixed signals or something.

As a FWW who didn't TRUST anything from my BH -- I'd have to say that none of the answers above are right.


Its about not trusting the changes. Its about not believing the sincerity behind them.

I always felt that my BH would do ANYTHING to make me stay...but didn't really care about ME. He only wanted to save face, get what HE wanted, and keep me in the WIFE spot.

There was such an intimacy gap, that he wasn't reaching ME. He lost his path to ME. He only interacted with me as his wife, the kid's mom -- we had lost US.

And any of his attempts to bridge that gap were met with total distrust. Because I didn't feel (and hadn't for many years) that he cared about ME. He only wanted to keep his wife in place. And I felt SUFFOCATED. That might be what your wife is experiencing.

Perhaps you can say more. If your point is similar to medc that this is not a lack of trust, but a manipulative tactic, then I don't know if I agree. Yes, there are times when duh, its obvious its a CYA, but others that aren't.

Is she back living at home now, rprynne?

You know what? A thought has occured to me that maybe they don't trust the BS because they can't understand why the BS puts up with their crap. They're paranoid. Probably waiting for the BS to off them. Probably think the BS has ulterior motives for keeping them around.

Or maybe it's a combination of all...projection, wanting their next fix, bullying tactics, fog messing with brain connections...

Why are you trying to gain her trust anyway? Time for her to try and gain yours, don't you think?

Yes, this is very much what I mean. My curiousity is around why the WS who wasn't this way before becomes this way, when they were the ones playing the angles, so to speak.

rprynne, none of this has anything to do with her lack of trust FOR YOU, it is a CLASSIC smokescreen of someone who has something to hide to accuse the other of "not trusting them." That is supposed to serve to guilt you into not going to the store so you won't see what she is doing. Otherwise, she wouldn't care.

rp, I said this kindly, but as a former bs artist, I have noticed that your bs detector is completely non functional.

A WS is not loveable by any stretch, so they can't figure out why you love them.

If I was lying and cheating and destroying another person, and he still wanted to be with me, I wouldn't trust him either.

Now maybe after I made amends, begged his forgiveness and demonstrated a proven tract record of loving fidelity, and he loved me, I could believe it.

I so understand what Lex is saying. I would feel the same way by someone willing to put up with anything just to keep me in the picture.

This is such a great thread topic, rpynne. Thank you. I've often wondered about this myself. Just a couple of months after d-day, WH had moved in with OP and I was taking DDs (13 and 14 years old) to a counselor.

WH FINALLY agreed to talk to the counselor for DDs one time and one time only. He told her that he did not trust me and his reason was exposure to his employer. That was his biggest complaint, that I "told".

I think he didn't trust me because I wouldn't let him take our children to see OP, because I didn't believe he had our children's interests at heart...because he thought that I thought I knew better than him what DDs needed. I also refuse to "help" with the D - to give him 50/50 custody. He wants what he wants and if I don't agree, I am not on his side and therefore untrustworthy.

I think he believed that because I wasn't "on his side" for the affair.....I could not be trusted.

Make sense?

I don't know if you were gearing the question towards thoes in recovery or just waywards and betrayeds in general. I'm no where near recovery and I think his lack of trust is a huge obstacle. He justifies continuing the affair by believing he could never trust me again.

The other huge obstacle is that I don't believe he has any reason not to trust me. I have always been absolutely honest with him, an open book. He has always known where I am, who I am with, what I am doing, etc.

Right now, I chalk it up to affair justification, guilt, and all the other things listed.

Fox

It's projection, pure and simple. It’s a way of not addressing her own lack of integrity. If she pretends not to trust you, she won't have to address the fact she is herself, untrustworthy. Put another way, projecting the label of "untrustworthy" on you is a way of manipulating the situation and you, whether she’s doing it consciously or subconsciously.

Nope, still living 1,000 miles away. I've moved out, so my house is empty. Last she said was she was thinking of maybe moving back in the house and we could try working on things.


Possibly - but I sure would have to be the most patient lion in all africa to wait 3 years to spring my trap.


Good question. I'm not really trying to gain her trust. I guess I'm just trying to be heard, KWIM. I go to group therapy now. Its been fun. When I say something there, people may agree or disagree, they may even suggest I'm confused about my feelings, but they don't assume I'm speaking to motivate them in some way. I think I would like all my conversations to be like that, but they aren't that way with WW. I don't know, I guess I just get ticked when someone thinks they have me figured out.

why aren't you in a very, very dark Plan B?

Hold up for a second. She isn't accusing me of not trusting her. She knows damn well I don't trust her. And I've made it completely clear that I'm not going to trust her until she earns it. I don't pull any punches on what it would take for her to earn my trust and I don't feel an ounce of guilt about it. What I'm saying is when I say to her, if you did a, b and c, you could regain my trust, she doesn't believe me.


Mel, Mel, Mel, and I didn't think Texans had a soft side. I think my BS detector is functioning normally. Alas, its just hard to get that across on a message board. But it never hurts to do a check up, so spell out what you think I'm missing.

I'm sure the 2x4's will be coming, when I answer this. Might even get ostracized from the group, but here goes.

2 reasons.

The first, because there is no plan B for me. I really, really made some mistakes in my M and my WW and I have not been meeting each others EN's for years. Plan B is equal to plan D, in my case. I've gotten that same assessement from Harley himself.

The second and IMHO, both Plan A and Plan B both require a certain subordination of the self, of what you want. Plan A, "limit the R talk, be happy, etc." Plan B, don't have anything to do with the WS. All with the objective of getting the WS to end the A and try recovery. I'm just not willing to subordinate myself any longer. I'm tired of my objectives dictating who I can be. I'd just rather be who I am, do my best, try to be good person and whatever happens, happens.

Some would retort with, well then why not plan D. I've posted my answer to that before and got pretty well beat down. But the fact is, I'm not in pain, I'm not in any hurry to date, my self esteem is solid, I don't have kids that are suffering because of this, so I'm just not in any real hurry.

Sorry, I know most people can't grasp that, and I just get beat down as being CA or in denial.