I've noticed in my own situation, as well as some others posted here, that often the WS does not trust the BS. I don't mean like they think the BS is having a revenge A or anything. Rather like when the BS says "I don't think you'll be happy if you go down this path". The WS always seems to think the BS is trying to manipulate them, as opposed to assuming they have actually thought about it and really don't think they will be happy.

It seems to me the WS is constantly "reading between the lines" with the BS and never takes anything at face value. Pre A, my WW was not like this. As an example, pre d-day if I said, "I'd like to go to the store with you", she just assummed I wanted to go to the store with her. Now if I say the same thing she assumes I just want to go to keep tabs on her. Now sometimes this is true, but other times I really just want to go to the store with her. And if she asks me I will tell her the truth either way. But it doesn't seem to matter what I say, she assumes she knows what the truth is and if I say that's not the case, she assumes I'm lying.

It is very much like my WW now thinks she has magical powers and can read my mind. She seems to assume my every word and action is wrapped up in either busting her or getting her to come back to the M.

I really don't get this lack of trust, because I was always pretty open and honest in the past, and I'm not the one that had an A.

Anyway, this causes problems all over the place, so what do people think causes this. Is it guilt? Guilt over what they've done? Guilt over what they are doing? Is that once somebody goes for so long pulling the wool over other people's eyes that they don't believe anyone is trustworthy? Is it if your manipulating people you assume they are doing the same? Is it an over inflated ego?

Finally, any tips on how to get my WS to "believe" what I say? Could there be something I'm doing wrong? Anybody experience something similar?

she trusts you ... she doesn't want you interfering is her comings and goings though. This is a typical bully tactic by WS to get BS to back off. That your wife is still acting like this should greatly concern you. I would bet that she is having an affair of some sort or another.

You've already identified some of the reasons WS's do this.
Here's another one: they're addicts and assuming everybody is out to prevent them from getting that next fix. They don't care that somebody is honestly trying to help them get off the self-destruction path for even the best of reasons, even if the person trying to help them won't benefit themselves from the advice being followed. The only thing important to them is that next fix.

As many folks have already posted here, many a time:
You can't teach a WS anything while they are still in the fog.

And you can't worry about how they feel or react to your Plan - just stick to your plan.

rprynne, do you seriously not understand what is really going on here? This has absolutely nothing to do with lack of trust. Surely you know this.

If they are mistrustful of their BS, its projection of themselves as cheats.

rprynne,
Sorry your having to deal with this.
For good or ill .........Its NOT you.
Its Them.
In part ...Its called Faulty Thinking.

For sure,
One of the reasons persons that lie end up distrusting Others, is that they mistakenly THINK other people act/behave like they do.

Truly,
When you are always thinking and scheming of ways to mislead, manipulate or down right deceive .....you can't help but have the prism that you view the world through be affected and tainted. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Indeed,
When you KNOW in your heart that You Would do horrible and dishonest things to those in your life [for your Own Selfish desires] ..... you Unfortunately tend to assume that type of a MindSet is the one EVERYONE works with . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Most times they sadly believe that "everyone" does it (so let me *get* you before you can do it to me).
OR at the very least, questioning "what's your angle??" in every situation or conversation.
[Which is both draining and tiresome for the NON-Lying partner].

Wrong thinking of course ......but it is what it is.
Remember logic is out the door when dealing with selfish people. [Shrugs]

My WH says he doesn't trust women anymore. Claims I tell him what he feels & then he turns around & tells me how I feel. That the only reason I want to know something about him or go do something with him is to see if he's still seeing her. Because I'm a sneak & a manipulator.

He actually thought that not seeing her was the end of the A. That talking to & texting her was ok & that it meant the A was over. HA!

When he told me he didn't trust women, I told him I hadn't done anything to make him not trust me. I always told him what I was doing, where I was going & who I was with. When the A started, that meant I was getting in his business & keeping tabs on him & he said he didn't care about what I was doing. Typical Fogspeak.

They don't trust because they can't be trusted.

Mel and Medc,

I just can't be in denial and I'm not going to talk about conflict avoidance. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've been dying to say that line.

Seriously, I really struggle with giving examples because folks seem to latch onto that one example.

I'm acutely aware of what is going on in my own sitch and I'm just fine with my current plan. I don't snoop, spy, monitor, etc. anymore. I've done that for too long and I don't need to do it anymore. I'm confident that the only proof that there's no funny business going on is if my WW moves home. What the funny business is, I have no idea. I have no false hope, no pining expectations. To say it best, I do what I think is right for me, when I think it is right for me and WW can do the same. I'm detached from the outcome.

So my question is a curiosity more than anything else, and the above paragraph is perhaps a better example. I have said exactly what I wrote above to WW and it bounces off. Now as many would have said or alluded to, if her lack of trust in me is a reflection of her furthering an adulterous objective why would she not believe the above?

I have also seen similar things in other stories posted here. The WS says for months, "you and the kids will be better off with out me". Then when the BS finally says "yeah, we will be better off without you", and the WS doesn't believe they mean it. Why is that?

I've got my own thoughts on the why, just wanted to hear others. When I ask if there is something else I can do, I'm just trying to clarify if I could be sending mixed signals or something.

As a FWW who didn't TRUST anything from my BH -- I'd have to say that none of the answers above are right.


Its about not trusting the changes. Its about not believing the sincerity behind them.

I always felt that my BH would do ANYTHING to make me stay...but didn't really care about ME. He only wanted to save face, get what HE wanted, and keep me in the WIFE spot.

There was such an intimacy gap, that he wasn't reaching ME. He lost his path to ME. He only interacted with me as his wife, the kid's mom -- we had lost US.

And any of his attempts to bridge that gap were met with total distrust. Because I didn't feel (and hadn't for many years) that he cared about ME. He only wanted to keep his wife in place. And I felt SUFFOCATED. That might be what your wife is experiencing.

Perhaps you can say more. If your point is similar to medc that this is not a lack of trust, but a manipulative tactic, then I don't know if I agree. Yes, there are times when duh, its obvious its a CYA, but others that aren't.

Is she back living at home now, rprynne?

You know what? A thought has occured to me that maybe they don't trust the BS because they can't understand why the BS puts up with their crap. They're paranoid. Probably waiting for the BS to off them. Probably think the BS has ulterior motives for keeping them around.

Or maybe it's a combination of all...projection, wanting their next fix, bullying tactics, fog messing with brain connections...

Why are you trying to gain her trust anyway? Time for her to try and gain yours, don't you think?

Yes, this is very much what I mean. My curiousity is around why the WS who wasn't this way before becomes this way, when they were the ones playing the angles, so to speak.

rprynne, none of this has anything to do with her lack of trust FOR YOU, it is a CLASSIC smokescreen of someone who has something to hide to accuse the other of "not trusting them." That is supposed to serve to guilt you into not going to the store so you won't see what she is doing. Otherwise, she wouldn't care.

rp, I said this kindly, but as a former bs artist, I have noticed that your bs detector is completely non functional.

A WS is not loveable by any stretch, so they can't figure out why you love them.

If I was lying and cheating and destroying another person, and he still wanted to be with me, I wouldn't trust him either.

Now maybe after I made amends, begged his forgiveness and demonstrated a proven tract record of loving fidelity, and he loved me, I could believe it.

I so understand what Lex is saying. I would feel the same way by someone willing to put up with anything just to keep me in the picture.

This is such a great thread topic, rpynne. Thank you. I've often wondered about this myself. Just a couple of months after d-day, WH had moved in with OP and I was taking DDs (13 and 14 years old) to a counselor.

WH FINALLY agreed to talk to the counselor for DDs one time and one time only. He told her that he did not trust me and his reason was exposure to his employer. That was his biggest complaint, that I "told".

I think he didn't trust me because I wouldn't let him take our children to see OP, because I didn't believe he had our children's interests at heart...because he thought that I thought I knew better than him what DDs needed. I also refuse to "help" with the D - to give him 50/50 custody. He wants what he wants and if I don't agree, I am not on his side and therefore untrustworthy.

I think he believed that because I wasn't "on his side" for the affair.....I could not be trusted.

Make sense?

I don't know if you were gearing the question towards thoes in recovery or just waywards and betrayeds in general. I'm no where near recovery and I think his lack of trust is a huge obstacle. He justifies continuing the affair by believing he could never trust me again.

The other huge obstacle is that I don't believe he has any reason not to trust me. I have always been absolutely honest with him, an open book. He has always known where I am, who I am with, what I am doing, etc.

Right now, I chalk it up to affair justification, guilt, and all the other things listed.

Fox

It's projection, pure and simple. It’s a way of not addressing her own lack of integrity. If she pretends not to trust you, she won't have to address the fact she is herself, untrustworthy. Put another way, projecting the label of "untrustworthy" on you is a way of manipulating the situation and you, whether she’s doing it consciously or subconsciously.

Nope, still living 1,000 miles away. I've moved out, so my house is empty. Last she said was she was thinking of maybe moving back in the house and we could try working on things.


Possibly - but I sure would have to be the most patient lion in all africa to wait 3 years to spring my trap.


Good question. I'm not really trying to gain her trust. I guess I'm just trying to be heard, KWIM. I go to group therapy now. Its been fun. When I say something there, people may agree or disagree, they may even suggest I'm confused about my feelings, but they don't assume I'm speaking to motivate them in some way. I think I would like all my conversations to be like that, but they aren't that way with WW. I don't know, I guess I just get ticked when someone thinks they have me figured out.

why aren't you in a very, very dark Plan B?

Hold up for a second. She isn't accusing me of not trusting her. She knows damn well I don't trust her. And I've made it completely clear that I'm not going to trust her until she earns it. I don't pull any punches on what it would take for her to earn my trust and I don't feel an ounce of guilt about it. What I'm saying is when I say to her, if you did a, b and c, you could regain my trust, she doesn't believe me.


Mel, Mel, Mel, and I didn't think Texans had a soft side. I think my BS detector is functioning normally. Alas, its just hard to get that across on a message board. But it never hurts to do a check up, so spell out what you think I'm missing.

I'm sure the 2x4's will be coming, when I answer this. Might even get ostracized from the group, but here goes.

2 reasons.

The first, because there is no plan B for me. I really, really made some mistakes in my M and my WW and I have not been meeting each others EN's for years. Plan B is equal to plan D, in my case. I've gotten that same assessement from Harley himself.

The second and IMHO, both Plan A and Plan B both require a certain subordination of the self, of what you want. Plan A, "limit the R talk, be happy, etc." Plan B, don't have anything to do with the WS. All with the objective of getting the WS to end the A and try recovery. I'm just not willing to subordinate myself any longer. I'm tired of my objectives dictating who I can be. I'd just rather be who I am, do my best, try to be good person and whatever happens, happens.

Some would retort with, well then why not plan D. I've posted my answer to that before and got pretty well beat down. But the fact is, I'm not in pain, I'm not in any hurry to date, my self esteem is solid, I don't have kids that are suffering because of this, so I'm just not in any real hurry.

Sorry, I know most people can't grasp that, and I just get beat down as being CA or in denial.

I can grasp it...but it just seems like a waste of time. To each his own.

I can't say whether my WW feels this way or not. But to the best of my knowledge, I've never given her that impression. I've never been real concerned about appearences


Can you say more. Did you get over this? Yes, No, why?

Don't you want to be in a good, solid, happy marriage? Isn't that what you came here for? I know that is why I came here.

Do you love her so much that you are willing to risk never having a loving, caring marriage?

I can understand if it is for the children or for religious beliefs, but I can't understand it if it is just because this is the only woman in the whole world you can even imagine loving.

And if marriage to her is really truly what you want, I think the way you are going about it just might get you divorced.

Do you believe she is still in an affair? I know she is still waywad, but an active affair?

Exactly. Couldn't agree more. And I'll probably get hit by a bus on my way home for saying this, but time I got.

I completely realize others don't have time.

Just for me, I've spent the better part of 38 years, efficiently working hard towards certain objectives and making sure I don't waste time. It may be time for me to try something different.

Which is hard to post on these forums, because a lot of times people quit giving any advice once you say, hey that plan is not right for me. You get beat down for either having no backbone, brains or both.

I won't beat you down for not working the plans. I have never been one to fight for every marriage on here. But I will tell you that I think you could use some mental health intervention as I do believe you live in complete denial about your life and life in general.
This is not a trial run...you don't get a do over.

Either way, I will wish you luck and wonder why if you are not doing anything to help your situation...other than not doing anything...why are you here? To ask questions of people for philosophical reasons??? I just don't see the point.

Actually I know someone on this forum who didn't follow the plans per se. I happen to repect him a great deal. Believe in yourself.

Most of us won't agree with it, but so what. I'll still give you my perspective and support and so will many others. My perspective will be totally slanted, but you gotta expect that here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

It helps if you say that right out. "I don't want to follow this plan, but I'd like some perspectives on the plan I have chosen for myself."

How timely, as we've recently begun to cover this in MC.

In our instance, a fundamental lack of trust in anyone by H is a factor. Due to issues with his FOO and subsequent experiences, the most he says he can trust anyone is about 70%. I'm the person he trusts the most.

Instead of being a symptom of an affair, his unwillingness or inability to trust is one of the factors that led up to them. He keeps a bit of distance from everyone so nobody can hurt him too badly.

He's working on it, but it's one of those things that must be hard to learn if you never had it before.

After reading that again, I wanted to clarify that it's not that he thinks I'll have an affair. It's more of an expectation that I just won't be there for him some day.

I think that old saying "the guilty dog barks the loudest" applies here.

Yes.


Nope.


I don't have children and its not about my religious beliefs. There's probably a part of me that keeps fighting because I take vows pretty seriously and I'm loyal to a fault. Its not that my WW is the only woman I can ever imagine loving.


To be brutally honest, I can't say if marriage to her is what I truly want. I don't know if its years at the type of work I do, or how I was raised or what, but what I want is to proove it out, so to speak. Had I known then, what I know now, I don't believe we would be in this mess. What I want is the opportunity to test it out. 4 things for her to do, stop cheating, stop lying, move home, give it a try. If she still loves me but is not in love with me at that point, then go our merry way.

But, again, I've told her that and she believes she knows better.


Is this a trap question? She is not seeing him anymore, but she allows contact. He makes a point to have some sort of contact with her about every other month or so, she doesn't tell me about it, and won't tell him to knock it off.

No. I just need all the details. Rprynne I understand a little better when you say you need "proove".

Scientific types are frustrating though.

May I ask what I posted that makes you think I'm in denial? I think I'm seeing things pretty clearly.


Fully aware of that.


I did not mean to imply I'm not doing anything. I'm just not doing plan A, plan B or Plan D at this time. I've been through a lot in the last 2.5 years. Damn near lost my job, I've been to IC, twice, worked on myself, fixed a lot of things. I've protected myself as best I can. I have a decision point coming up. I ask the questions for practical reasons. In the coming months, either my WW is going to come home or I'm going to be filing for a D. And I have my reasons for why I'm waiting.

MEDC, One other thing, I'm always a little leery about what I post here because one of the biggest mistakes I made was asking my WW to come here. She sure did use my posts to help in going underground.

Sort of like if you were against something that is obviously so good for me, then you must be against me.

And I get that when the BS is suggesting something that goes against what the WS wants to do.

What puzzles me is when they still don't trust you when something you suggest is neutral or in line with what they want to do.

Which I guess may be different causes for the same action. Projection on one guilt on the other.

Well, they have to rebel against SOMETHING.

Overgrown adolescents.

That's fine. I just didn't want to give the impression that I think an A can be over if contact continues.

rprynne,


Because they cannot trust themselves.

-LE

Stop wondering why she doesn't trust you. If you gave her a Plan B letter spelling out what SHE has to do to earn your trust, then just go to Plan B and stay there.

Lexxxy, I remember my WXH saying things like: "you'll never change", "you just want me to lose the OW", or "it's too late" as excuses to discount any improvements I made during Plan A. But IMHO he didn't really doubt that I was willing to do my best to save our marriage and to keep up the effort forever, I had always been the one wanting to work on our marriage, making improvements, scheduling mc appointments, trying to compete with the latest OW... I have read though that it is important that the BS be sincere and not making temporary improvements just until the WS comes home.

However, I do think the WS has to accept the fact that the BS is entirely justified in giving up all those efforts and going to Plan B or D after a reasonable amount of time. I can also understand a WS worrying that the improvements are not permanent but that can be dealt with in mc. If the BS goes back to taking the WS for advantage the WS ALWAYS still has the option of telling the BS they are not satisfied and filing for divorce if the BS refuses to work on the marriage. Adultery is never a valid response to whatever is lacking in a spouse or marriage. I guess if the WS senses that the BS will take them back but the OP won't (if they end the adulteyr and give their marriage a fighting chance) then the WS won't be willing to end it with the OP without a guarantee from the BS that the improvements are permanent? I just wonder why the WS doesn't realize that the charm and excitement of the adultery is never permanent, that it will surely fade, and THAT is a much greater likelihood and risk.

In a way it's the BS's devotion, and the OP's lack of committment, that empowers the WS to demand the BS compete unfairly with the OP. The WS is basically admitting that the OP won't wait for them if they go back to their BS, therefore the WS wants a guarantee before they leave the OP?
I think the WS should be more careful not to take the BS for granted. The WS can get too used to the cake-eating, having the upper hand, and bullying their scared BS into competing and concessions. I can imagine what an ego trip that must give! So in that sense the BS should NOT try to convince the WS that the improvements are permanent. Plan A should not be too short OR too long before Plan B is switched to and then indeed the improvements come to a screechign halt unless the adultery ending and marriage recovery terms are met. And THEN it is the WS who has some proving to do...

I believe it is this simple. You believe about others what you project to others. Projecting lies, mistrust and deceit knowingly would pretty much force them to expect the same in response or at least that would be their greatest fear.

I have a lot to say about this subject, but unfortunately not much time in which to do it.

I'm at work, and leaving to go out of town shortly, but I would like to address quite a lot of things when I come back.

If you really want to understand the WW mindset, you need to stop assuming that you know what its all about. Those of you that say its deceitful, or selfish, or rebelling, or projection -- you just don't get it.

I'll start with this:
It took a LONG time for my marriage to deteriorate. Years. Years of unmet needs, neglect and selfish independent behavior on the part of my BH. Years.

But then SUDDENLY...yeah SUDDENLY he was willing to change all of that. And after a few weeks/months of displaying different choices and behavior I was supposed to TRUST that it would last forever. C'mon.

And I was supposed to believe that he was doing this for ME.
Huh? He was doing it for HIMSELF. So that he wouldn't lose me. These changes weren't for MY benefit; they were for HIS benefit. It was so he could keep the comfort, security, and benefits I brought to the marriage.

So everything he did was looked at with suspicion and mistrust. Because I did believe he was manipulating me, saying things, doing things to get what HE wanted.

You can all say that Plan A is altuistic and the right thing to do and for the greater good of the family. (I get that now) But you have to admit that there is a selfish element of achieving what YOU want, the marriage intact.

Ok...gotta go. And for all of you out there unhappy with my comments, please understand I am representing my FORMER mindset. I just think I understand these issues better than a betrayed spouse who want to chalk it up to being a cheater or selfish or projecting.

Wandering spouses feel real pain too. Its not a party.
Having been BOTH, I can tell you I experienced far more pain as a WW than as a BW.

Exactly. You said it more clearly than I did.



I don't know that they realize it is neutral or in line with what they want to do - I think they are afraid it is a trap because we are out to "get" them or ruin their happiness.

I can't remember the specifics, but I offered WH something in mediation that I didn't want to give, but was hoping a little "good faith" gesture would help show that I'm not out for his blood. He flat out refused - and it was REALLY good for him. Both lawyers looked at him like he was nuts for not accepting. He just flat out refused and his lawyer could not change his mind. Mediation was a bust because he couldn't negotiate.

He bit off his own nose to spite his face.

Lexxxy....looking forward to your thoughts.

Fox

Yes, I think my WW hates this about me.

Just a recap of what I've heard so far. Then I'll respond to a few others.

Okay, so we've got a lot of votes for projection. The general theme being the WS concludes "I'm untrustworthy so everyone else is."

We've got few votes for observed behavior obscured by fog. The general theme being "I used to trust the BS, but now since they don't support my wayward ways, the WS must have misjudged them and they are untrustworthy."

A few for the WS thinks the BS is incompetent or of very low self esteem. The general theme being "Why should I trust someone who clearly can't see how badly I treat them or doesn't care about it"

One (or two) for genuinely not trusting the BS motives.

A few for this is not a lack of trust at all, this is a manipulative tactic.

And a few for, the question is moot, you're crazy, blind and should dump your lying manipulative WW.

Finally, some have suggested that its a combination of the above, a sort of situational mistrust.

I'm not really wondering. Most of the responses were as I suspected they would be. And most of them leave me with the opinion that there is really nothing I can do about it.


This made me think of an interesting point. Completely agree with the statement above, but also add that it seems many WS take it for granted that they know the mind of the BS. Maybe this is not the same as trusting, but at times a I feel my WW thinks she knows me so well that if my words don't match her image of me, she believes her image of me.


I hope you do say more. I'm going to poke at a couple things you said. Hopefully, that won't run you off.


You don't think any of that plays a part in it? If so, I would have to disagree. I often get frustrated when I seek advice here, since most advice is generally kept simple and blunt. Now, I can understand that in some circumstances. But in others, it comes across as an easy out statement. A fear of complexity. I understand Occam's razor (All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one), but IME, people and their relationships seldom have all things being equal and seldom are the solutions simple. That being said, I would theorize that that the above may not be incorrect, but rather incomplete.


Yes, my WW has said the same things. I think she said she's hated me for years.


Well I guess this is part of my question. I can't say for your situation, but in mine, there was a lack of feedback from my WW. She's convinced she told me our M had problems. I'm convinced that its the one thing she didn't tell me had problems. I honestly don't know who is right. But if I tell her the apparent suddeness of my changes aren't because their insincere, its because I didn't know the changes were needed, she doesn't believe that.


Again, I have a similar dilemma. That may be what my WW thinks, but it is incorrect.


IMHO, methods, motivations and objectives all too often get confused. Plan A is a method. Keeping the M intact may be an objective. But I don't think one could infer that because one uses plan A in an attempt to keep a M intact, that their motives are selfish. Yet my WW seems to.

Anyway, hope to hear yours and others thoughts.

I too am curious to hear much more from you Lexxxy.

I'm sure you're not surprised we BS's tend to get that "mob mentality" and pile on against anything and everything we think a WS might use to "justify" an affair.

Sometimes here we get so much validation for our "self-righteous" POV that we lose sight of the fact that in relationships, there is what IS, not always what SHOULD BE.

I'm thinking it's pretty well established that everyone has their own experience of life, and there's a continuum of "reality" from complete and total emotional detachment on the one side to utter delusion on the other...most of us live somewhere in the middle.

Those in affairs, and my WW is no different, are living "their" reality, and the fact that it doesn't mesh with our own is just another example of why relationships aren't easy.

If you want to have someone agree with everything you say and think like you do a person should marry themselves. For whatever reason, we're often attracted to someone very much different from ourselves and therein lies the cornerstone of conflict.

Most of the things Lexxxy has said echo those of my wife...

Lexxy, how did YOU find your way back?

Where to start?

So many of these posts incensed me. There is just no compassion for a WS. Just chalk it up to being a lousy no good liar. Don't any of you realize that WS feel PAIN?

How can you possibly hope to restore a marriage with this mindset? So many of these posts resonate with the "holier than thou" attitude. If you really feel like your WS are such scum, why are you here?

ws are scum...and liars by their very nature.
fws are not...it's all about choices and actions.

Unfortunately,
Infidelity Changes People. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Sadly,
mostly NOT in the best of ways.
You can't dance with the devil .......and not expect to come away with some Dirt [changes].

The skill sets a WS learns/uses during adultery,
well,
lets just say they are not all that positive from the BS point of view.
Naturally,
Some of this is carried onward back into the relationship.

Infidelity the gift that just keeps on giving. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

ok...so Rprynne's wife is still a "ww" by title.
How does that help him?

He wants to understand why she doesn't trust him.
Are there no valid, understandable reasons for that?

I don't agree with what seems to be your position medc.
That the WS is bad, and the BS is good. Its not that simple.

I didn't say anything about the BS...BUT...every single WS is by their very acts, a liar and a no good cheat. Their acts define them...liars lie...cheaters cheat.....
Show me a WS that is open and honest about what they are doing...honest with everyone right from the get go, and I would remove the liar label.

And to you it isn't that simple...to me, nothing could be more simple.

medc;

To you everything is black and white. Thats fine. That's your view and I respect it. I just don't see how your view is helping Rprynne. His question cannot be anwered with the simple "ws is bad" answer.

The fact is; even a WS can be right about some things.

yes, a WS can be right about some things...but their opinion is not to be respected or considered until they are no longer wayward. Hitler had a great handle on Scripture...but there was no reason to consider his views.

As far as why I have posted what I posted...I was responding to you. And I don't see how your views would be helpful.

and no, not everything is balck and white...but when it comes to good/evil...yes, there is a clear line of demarcation for me.

wow -- so a BS should not consider anything a WS has to say?
even about the state of the marriage....wow.

"And I don't see how your views would be helpful."

really? you don't?

And for the record...I don't think WS behavior is "good".
But I also believe that a BS has their share of "bad".

No, so long as they are wayward...nothing they say should be given any significant weight. Not a single word...liars lie.

not about everything medc. Can't you acknowlege that?
Not everything they say is a lie.

Come on Lexxxy. If a WS isn't a liar then why are they lying? If they are not a cheater, then why are they cheating?

Why not just go file for divorce, leaving everyone with as much dignity as possible?

I was wayward in college in a way. I know I was lying and I was definitely in pain. I couldn't bring myself to break up with either one of them. Trouble was my pain was all self-inflicted. I was coward and had some stupid misguided notion I was protecting them. I didn't want to hurt them.

How arrogant of me. How blind. How self-riteous.

In retrospect the truth was I didn't want to make a decision. I didn't want to suffer. I wanted to end up in first place.

Do you see my point, Lexxxy. Why don't they just leave. Why cheat?

I thought we did give some good reasons why they don't trust. Also, you can only speak for yourself, not for all waywards.

I hear something totally different from the other FWW's I know. So perhaps there are many reasons why a wayward may not trust their BS.

no, Lexy, I can't acknowledge that because YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN A LIAR IS LYING.

I do think there are many reasons Weaver.
But according to many here, none of them matter.

So, why ask the question? Apparently its simple.
Don't pay attention to anything they have to say...

Good luck with that.

In my time here, I have seen BS that would have done much better had they not listened to their WS even a little bit. EVERYTHING that spews from the mouth of a WS is open for doubt...every single word. There is nothing that I would trust a WS with...not my child, not my money, not anything...they are liars and cheats...to their very core...until their actions...not their suspect words, show otherwise.

I think too many BS's make the mistake of listening to too much the WS has to say. It is counter-productive to breaking up the affair at that point , because the BS first and foremost needs to break up the affair, and he can't do that if he is thrown into a sea of regret, self -flagulation, doubt, indecision.

Most of the BS's on here pay very close attention to the what the FWS has to say, and work very hard to become better spouses with a better marriage.

Lexxxy, is something going on with you? I just have never seen you post this way. And I'm not saying it's bad or anything. It's good to speak up. I'm glad you are offereing your perspective. It's good to see you posting, Lex, and many on here have been looking for that perspective...waiting for you to come back and continue.

Lexxy - I hope you will speak up and answer some of the questions I asked. I would like to hear your answers.

FWIW, I don't think all WS lie all the time. I consider myself to be fairly empathetic and try to understand where people our coming from.

For the most part I think most people jump to the simplest answers because a lot of times the simplest answer is the correct answer. I get frustrated with it as well. I've had many a thread end here because people just refuse to consider I may not be in the pain others are in, I'm not in denial, I'm not being fooled or tricked or manipulated. I don't mind people disagreeing with me, in fact I welcome other's opinions. What I usually don't like is when folks respond with the short "this is what this is", when it seems they haven't read anything I posted.

Like I said before, I've been told several times, I'm blind, or in denial, or crazy. When I ask people to provide me what evidence they have that supports that, I usually get no response.

I've also posted on here that I understand why people get blunt or agressive or what not. Many people do need to get shaken up, or motivated to act, etc. It just don't work with me. I realize that I got burned. I realize that for a time, I was in denial, didn't spot the BS, etc. But, I've learned from my mistakes.

Anyway, I would like to hear your comments. I believe much of what you said my WW has thought. So what am I to do? By the tone of your posts, it sounds as if I'm at a dead end. All the reasons why you didn't trust your BS seem to be going through my WS's mind. But she won't say any of that. No amount of reassuring her of my motivations seems to matter.

That's really the meat of the question, isn't it?

To us BS's, we're there for our WS. What our WS sees, OTOH, is our "selfish" desire to "hold on to them" and "keep them from being happy".

They CANNOT see our motivations for what they are, because they're irrelevant. EVERYTHING we do is evaluated by its impact on the affair.

The question should be, how do you do an end run around those defenses - showing them you ARE trustworthy, that you aren't selfish, that you are on THEIR side??

Well said LTF.



By a good Plan A? By being the "lighthouse"? By avoiding R talks unles they bring them up? By loving detachment?

Someone on here said he regained his WW's interest by talking as little as possible. By merely listening. He said the more he listened, the more she talked, and the more she talked (and he listened with his mouth shut) the more interested she became in him.

rprynne,

I know a former, well respected member of this board who left a couple of years ago and went on to establish a counseling practice using MB principles (as well as other approaches).

I asked this person why they don't post here anymore... and they told me it was because they found the board to be intollerant of the W/FW POV, and therefore limited as a tool to understand the thoughts/mindset of a W/FW.

If you really want insight and candid comments from other W/FW's, you might consider seeking out other sources of information.

Just a thought.

--SC

To a large extent, yes. But there are some other subtleties. Notably to me is that my WW can't seem to believe me when I say you/us is not the only thing on my mind. I mean I've had times when I talk to her and I say, I'm in a bad mood because I had a crappy day at work. Now if it any point during that conversation our M comes up, I get an aha, I knew you were really mad at me. But, I'm sorry, there is always an undercurrent of disappointment about my M, but that doesn't change the fact that I still was just mad about my day at work.


Which is really odd to me, because I don't want to be married to an unhappy person.


I always get 2x4's when I say this, but in my sitch this has very little to do with the A anymore. I can't say there is NC, but I can say with absolutely certainty, that this is not a case of classic "fence sitting". My WW is not sitting there with fantasies about her and OM running off and being together, but keeping me along as a safety net. A or no A, my WW was leaving me.



Did that for a very long time.


I fear that technique, would leave me listening to silence.


Hey, the board is pretty intollerant of BS's too. We got a pretty rigid decision tree going on here. "My S says they aren't in love with me." (They're cheating, plan A and demand a NC letter). "That didn't work" (Plan B, wait till them come back, demand counseling and a NC letter). "That didn't work" (Plan D and move on with your life).

For the most part, I'm okay with that. That's the path with the highest probability of success in the largest number of cases. Because of that, I'm also fine that when a poster says, yeah but, my sitch is unique, and that path isn't the best for me, that most people repeatedly challenge them. They should, because odds are, they are right.

What irks me is when people challenge that without backing up their assertion.

Finally, I would ask your friend to come back and post. I don't understand when people who have something to add, leave because others disagree with them, their advice, or their style. One of my favorite posters is MelodyLane (still waiting on my answer about my BS detector, BTW) and I disagree with her at least a third of the time. But she's in there slugging away, with what she believes is good advice. Her style is what it is, and to some in may sound harsh, but sometimes people need to hear it that way. The board begins to appear intolerent because people with different sytles or different advice stop posting.


I have. MC, MC with SH, IC, group therapy, books. Crap, I know more about relationships than I ever wanted to.

SC - OT, related to my paragraphs above, you too are one of my favorite posters. Why did you not respond to Mrs. W's questions on a thread a few weeks back? I wanted to hear your answers. I know you are doing a lot of introspection and discovery about your feelings. Either you said (or alluded that) you feel you never loved your H. I would advise a tremendous amount of caution when doing this. I have a deep concern that you have convinced yourself that you never loved your H and now are selectively processing actions, thoughts and emotions of the past in support of that position. This is a lot easier to do than most would imagine. I remeber once my WW saying to me, (in support of her arguement that she never loved me), was that she had doubts about going through with things on our wedding day. What struck me about that, is that I also had doubts about it. If I take the position that I never loved my WW, then those thoughts can clearly be considered proof that it is true. However, if I take the position that everyone has those doubts, then those thoughts can be considered proof of nothing. KWIM.

Have you ever considered just dropping the deliberations on whether you did love your H? Dropping the deliberations on whether you believe "fake it, till you make it" will actually work. Rather just set as your goal, I'm going to be happy and love my H, what do he and I have to do to make that happen? I'm not a rah, rah, power of positive thinking kind of person. But I do know having and expectation of failure versus faith in sucess, greatly reduces your odds.

Rprynne, the reason I did not follow up is because when I responded to THIS in your initial post:


You responded to my response that the above was a "classic smoke screen, which it is, with:


So the nature of the complaint changed quite dramatically from quote #1 to quote #2. And that’s ok, I just don't have the patience to go back and decipher your meaning to get us on the same page. The reason I said your BS detector was broken was because you seemed to not understand that not wanting your BS to go to the store with you is a classic smokescreen of a wayward.


So, that explains why I didn't answer. I just didn't feel like I could contribute anything if there was such a WIDE communication GAP to begin with and I don't have the patience to bridge that gap. I went NEVER MIND, instead. But, I still love ya, rprynne! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Kind of what I figured, but never hurts to check it out.

I'm sure I'll get another opportunity for a Texas size can of whup a** in the future. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Actually, the board is very "tolerant" of waywards, they are allowed to post here. Tolerance is required for OPPOSING VIEWS, after all, not views about which you already approve. Waywards do not have a special immunity to CHALLENGE, [no one does, not even their victims] though, and that is what bothers some of the more wayward minded. But that is not "intolerance."

If you want to see some real intolerance, I know of a board that actually PROTECTS the waywards and will not ALLOW others to CHALLENGE their waywardness. The WS's are actually given a little protected forum where they can discuss their waywardness freely without challenge - challenges are strictly forbidden. Another board has fascist speech codes that are strictly enforced; nothing negative or truthful can be said. Now, THAT is intolerance to the MAX.

Secondly, one does not need to understand the views of a wayward in order to recover; the wayward needs to do the understanding here in order to get better. The WW knows how to be wayward, they need to learn how to NOT be wayward. Besides, a monkey can "understand" fogbabble, there is no great secret there. Big deal.

I was also awaiting your answer to MrsW's question about your H. Hope you don't run from the challenge.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Intolerant may be the wrong descriptor. Perhaps impatient or authoritative. Heck, I don't know. Speaking for myself, I'm not very good at just being told the answer to the problem. I do better when someone helps me solve it. Then I get it.

there is no reason to be patient with waywards...justa s there is no reason to be patient with anyone that is actively destrying other people. Aggressive action should always be taken when people are being harmed.

I think the board tends to challenge FOG, whether it comes from a wayward or a BS. I have noticed that the problem with most here is that their minds have not been ruined yet by political correctness and they usually just say it how it is. They are not well indoctrinated in the art of double speak and weasel words.

rprynne,

Just to clarify: "intolerant" was not my word choice, it is the exact word this other person used to describe their perception of the board when it comes to W/FW's. Again, this is from someone who recovered a marriage from infidelity and went on to become a licensed counselor using MB in their practice.

You started this thread seeking to understand the mindset of your WW. I was simply suggesting that if you really want to understand, you might find more candid answers elsewhere. And since I knew (from past experience) that any suggestion to that effect from ME would be poo-pooed, I backed it up with a statement from someone who happens to agree... but who's a BS... in a recovered marriage... and working as licensed counselor.

In MY opinion... the board is warm and fuzzy for those WS's who toe the line, quickly fall back in love with their BS and recover their marriages. But it can be downright hostile to those who continue to struggle in their marriage.

you said:


Let me tell you how that decision tree has worked for me:

"I had an affair. I'm not in love with OM, but I don't love my H either. In fact, I'm not sure I ever did." (You have rewritten your history to justify your affair. Go NC and start meeting your H's EN's. Your memories will change and the feelings will return.)

"It isn't working." (Keep trying.)

"It still isn't working." (You still sound foggy. You must not be trying hard enough. It takes time. Keep at it. Are you back in contact with OM?)

"NC is intact. I AM trying. But it still isn't working. My recollections and feelings haven't changed" (Well then... something must be terribly wrong with YOU. You're either a fogged-out liar or a decietful, manipulative, horrible person. You don't know what love is. Never mind that we said your feelings for your BS would retrun, feelings don't matter. Love is a choice! In fact... you must be a troll... a shark who's only here to take nips out of vulnerable newbie BS's!!!!!)

Now there's a fine display of tolerance. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Okay, enough.

I never intended to get into a debate over whehter or not the board is intolerant of W/FW's. I think it is intolerant. And I'm not alone in that opinion. Therefore, rprynne, I don't think you'll get as much useful feedback on your question here as you might from other sources. If you think the responses you've gotten here have been helpful, fine. But you might note that almost all of the posts so far have been from BS's... conjecturing what goes on in the mind of a WS... not from FWS themselves.

I bet Lexxxy could have helped. That girl's got a lot of gumption and grit. IMO, she remembers the thoughts and feelings of a WS better than most... and is very good at articulating those thoughts and feelings. And she knows what it's like to end an affair but still have trouble in the marriage. I don't know why she didn't come back and elaborate on her posts. But if... by chance... it's b/c she grew weary of swimming against the tide... well... I know the feeling very well.


Mel,


Oh. That was supposed to be a CHALLENGE? It was presented as a sincere desire to understand and help. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But thanks for confirming what I suspected all along. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

--SC

Nice posts smartcookie.



Max

I am wading in carefully here, as I have become quite adept lately at avoiding the controversial threads on the forum, and I don't want to lose the skill. But this thread....

I really must agree w/SC. The numbers alone on this board tell the story. How many times I have seen a question directed to WS/FWSs and the vast majority of the answers are from BSs, speaking for their F/WS. That's just not going to tell the original poster what he wants to know, but it's much more palatable.

I'm not going to get into the specifics of my own situation, but I will say that the BS who ignores everything his WS/FWS says on the grounds that it must be "fog talk" or revisionist history does so at his own peril.

PK

My .02.

Why do waywards not trust BSs? Because what you want is different than what they want and they are aware that your agenda is to undermine the direction they have said they want to go.

The larger issue? Why ask someone who is in a wayward frame of mind anything you plan to hold them accountable for if you recognise that they ARE "not themselves", "the alien", etc and so on? What is the point of that? You may just as well take a tab of acid and trip out in the corner for awhile...A BS interrogating a WS is looking for answer in a place where there are no answers. They do not have the key and are lost in their own fog.

The solution?

Plan A. Address the issues that you are aware of in the relationship as well as you can. Which is probably not very well. At least in the short term. If the answer were not complex and easily fixed you wouldn't have the issue in the first place.

But relax...a wayward becomes wayward because of the wickedness in their OWN heart...not because of anything you have done or not done. You aren't responsible for it and you can't direct it with the force of your will and you can't "argue" it out of them or love it out of them or understand it out of them.

Expose. Bring reality and fantasy into a collision as completely and suddenly as possible.

Plan B.

Separate yourself from the person who is spinning the drain. You can't save them. You can't control this.

The Harley flaw.

Assumes that all people WERE in love at one time. This is not a fair assumption HOWEVER the question of consequences and personal histories can't be addressed with a "wayward" frame of mind. That requires emotional honesty, maturity, and personal responsibility.

Assuming that the wayward is no longer "wayward". They have accepted 100% responsibility, gone thorugh withdrawl, and been operating "fog free" for at least six months.

That is about the point at which I would take any issues seriously including the "I never loved you".

There will be a different answer for different people to that situation.

It would require a HUGE show of HUMILITY and REMORSE!

A big apology for the deceit and fraud involved in marrying someone that you knew you did not love. Robbing them even more than yourself because only YOU had the info and the choices.

See for me...as a Christian...that would be a life sentence because marriage is "for keeps" even if feelings change or were never there to begin with.


In that scenario I would have to make the best of it and I do think the Harley plan is the best odds plan to that effect. Whether that involved forgiving someone who pretended to love me or asking for forgiveness and accepting that I have chosen that relationship AND made it permanent of my own free will. I understand that I am not entitled to FEEL in love. And I am not entitled to have someone feel that way about me...though I would like it...and I would not have made the choices I did if I had known the truth.

For someone who does NOT share my beliefs...well there might be a different solution that they would accept or conclude. I can't agree with it but I can acknowledge that it would probably be the end of the marriage...again HUGE HUGE remorse and accepting consequences with an attitude of "I have completely screwed you and you are losing everything you invested in because of my dishonesty" which means that I would not seek out any gain or asset in the termination of the marriage. Not equity, not custody..nothing. I would deserve nothing and would not EVER be able to pay my debt...I literally CAN'T give back what I have taken. But that's all hypothetical because there is no reason to anticipate that someone who has behaved with complete selfishness and lack of ethics up to that point would be suddenly willing to embrace the notion of personal accountability and consequence. Probably they'd go for a divorce and get as much as the law said they could take. More selfishness. More short sightedness. Just because it hasn't made you happy yet doesn't mean it won't this time right?



So I guess that's sort of a long winded way of saying that I don't approach rebellion and selfishness with tender indulgence and I wouldn't encourage anyone else to either.

Did you know that Dr. Harley is a licensed psychologist - very successful too! - and he is happy with the board? Did you know that Steve Harley, a licensed therapist, is happy with his board? So if your little friend feels that MB is "intollerant" of waywards, she should go start her OWN board and run it the way she sees fit; JUST LIKE THE HARLEY'S HAVE.

Who knows, maybe the Harleys will feel she is a little too "tollerant" of waywards.


SC, and I suspected that was exactly WHY you did run, you view it as a challenge, for whatever reason. Still awaiting your answer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Or is it "intollerant" to ask you any questions at all?


Nice dramatization. You sound like such a victim! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> The made up dramatization you described - and it was cartoonish and very dramatic - was completely manufactured. Your characterization is a thinly veiled RUSE designed to NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION! [if I just act AGHAST and offended they ASKED the question, then maybe I won't have to ANSWER it!]

You really, really don't want to answer that question, do you? Why, SC?

See, tolerance is needed for OPPOSING views, did you know that? And as you can see, opposing views are allowed here. So it is not true that the board is not "tollerant" of waywards. THEY ARE. However, waywards are not entitled to be immune from CHALLENGES. [neither are their victims] This is just more of your apparent belief that hard questions should not be put to waywards. On the other hand, YOU are intolerant of OTHERS here using your own standard.

Maybe tolerance could work both ways? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Smartcookie -- just wanted to tell you that you are one of my favorite posters and I wish you were around more.

You hit the nail on the head on my reasons for not coming back to elaborate. Sometimes I have the energy for these board debates, and sometimes I don't. Right now I'm just too darn busy with work and life to feel like I can keep up with this thread.

Rprynne -- there were problems in my marriage. I had known for quite some time I was just marking time. I had an affair. I experienced all the WS mentality. However in the end, my affair ended, and a couple years later my marriage ended too. And ending BOTH of those relationships was the right decision.

But I will NEVER agree that while a WS, that I shouldn't have been listened to or that what I had to say wasn't valid. And I'm done fighting that battle with MEDC or anyone else that closed-minded. I won't convince them, and they won't convince me.

Noodle, good post. I have a strong belief in MB theories.
They work.

Rprynne -- asking your question of a board made up mainly of BS's is difficult. Because I for one got very frustrated and annoyed with the know-it-all answers you got from BS's who think they know what a WS is thinking or feeling.

I think this could have been a good discussion, but its deteriorated too far to be effective anymore.

Pot-kettle.

That is too bad Lexxy, I feel you were on the cusp of helping illuminate an issue I struggle with understanding. What you say is much like what my W was saying when she was wayward, and in some ways resembles what she says now when trying to explain what happened. So I'm going to jack this thread if I can because I want to hear what you have to say!

Its complicated because I don't even know really what I want to know! But really the gist is: she says she was unhappy for a long time but I don't know if I really believe that. I believe that she believes it, but she also believes (or believed) that she told me she was unhappy, but she never did. She has even said that she thought she was trying to tell me she was unhappy but that I wasn't picking up on it and that she never flat out came out and said "hey, I am unhappy here and our marriage is in trouble". The reason I disbelieve this is because I was there, she never ACTED unhappy before the A. Our close mutual friends don't believe she was unhappy and were as surprised by the A as I was.

I don't disbelieve that she was unhappy because I think she is lying, I disbelieve it because I don't think its true, I think its really a deeply rooted justification for the A that started when the A started and has been clung to afterwards as a reason for having the A. I'm certainly not saying this is the case for you at all.

Would you try to answer this for me? If you were unhappy in your M, what enabled you to make the decision to have an A presuming the fact that you see yourself as a generally honest person and recognize the moral quagmire that an A represents. How do the Wayward get from "I am unhappy" to "my unhappiness justifies my affair"? Its just that somewhere in that sequence I get lost. Do you know how you got from unhappy to infidelity?

I know this is clumsy, as I said, I don't really know what I want to know!

Sorry for the threadjack rprynne!

lol...touche'

Also, if there is a better place to get a reasonable Wayward perspective I would like to investigate it a bit (at my own peril, I know). Where is this place?

gloryb... the other woman.

Tyk -- want to start a new thread? I'll jump on it.
Your questions and issues are different than Rprynnes.

this beast does not exist.

Lexxy: meet me in my post d-day thread linked at the bottom of my post, I will repost my question there if you don't mind.

I'm not going to plug another website on this one, but I suggest that you do a google search on "surviving infidelity". You will get honest former wayward views. Currently wayward views are challenged, as they should be, in a moderated fashion.

Not sure why the gloryb site gets so much play here. They must enjoy that.

PK

Ok, so "reasonable post-wayward" viewpoint. Does that exist?

Lexxxy,

Thanks. And me too... about the "too busy to put in the time and energy here" thing. Demanding career. Two young children. Weird... how I devote so much time and attention to those two little critters when I'm nothing but a selfish, uncaring person with no morals and ethics, huh? Or maybe I'm just "using" them to "run" from the tough questions posed to me here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Rprynne... I'm so sorry about the colossal T/J. I wish I had some insight for you. I know it takes time for a WS to trust that the BS's plan-A changes are for real. But, if you've been consistent with all that, it seems to me that too much time has passed for it to be that.

It also seems to me that MT is in some sort of death-grip self protection/preservation mode. I don't know what she's afraid of... or protecting. But the fact that she seems to be so uncommunicative about what's going on inside her is puzzling to me.

Could it be that she really, desperately wants a divorce but can't... and I mean CAN NOT... out of some deep seeded fear... bring herself to be the bad guy and file? Do you think she could be... whether consciously or not... trying to push you to be the one to make that move? I’m out on a limb here… but I know you’re not too suggestible… and will be able to discern whether I’m onto something or not.

Good luck, rprynne.

--SC

P.S. Thanks so much for your thoughts on my sitch. I really do understand what you're suggesting, and in fact, it's exactly what I'm trying to do.

yes...right here on these boards...seek out Mrs.W for the best of the best.

tyk, you should also know that the board recommended by penaltykill has a protected section for waywards in which betrayed spouses/others are not allowed to challenge. Any "disrespect" or "judgmentalism" to waywardness expressed on the forum will result in being BANNED. It is the epitomy of INTOLERANCE. I have not gone there and read myself but I have heard the opinions of a licensed counselor and others, from this board, who were quite sickened by it.

Tyk, take it from a former wayward, you don't need to understand the fogged out mind of a wayward in order to recover. In fact, it is very easy to understand, a monkey could do it. But all they know is how to be wayward and all that emcompasses, which will get you nowhere.

Waywards have the same mentality as alcoholics, and believe me, AA is not successful because they sit around and try to understand the thinking of falling down drunks. They only know how to get drunk, they don't know how to sober up. Recovery comes from listening to RECOVERED people, not sick people.

I'm not really wanting to understand the wayward mind. I'm wanting to understand how a person that I know was honest, with a strong moral code who was repulsed by infidelity somehow engaged in an affair.

I don't even view the question as essential to our recovery or anything, its just that I do want to understand it, and I want my W to understand it because I think understanding it will help put me at ease and help her prevent it happening again.

See, I don't really view my wife as a dishonest person, even now. I do now know that she has that capability within her, and that is disturbing to say the least. I believe that she does not intend to cheat again, but the reality is that it happened and I struggle with how the moral code can fray like that. Lexxy was on the cusp of getting there but it got sidetracked!

You can discover this by empathy.

Have you ever told a lie?

I'll bet you have. Even though you don't like that behavior and would categorise it as "bad" you have still done it haven't you?

The either one of two things happened.

You confessed or you took it waaaaaay underground and built a life around it.

Waywardness is deliberate willfull rebellion and nothing more..nothing less.

Being in that frame of mind...where you reject your commitments and your promises and your responsibilities to gratify yourself and your impulses changes your feelings about EVERYTHING. Everything is viewed through a different lense...but you don't need to ask a wayward how it looks because have yourself BEEN wayward at one time or another in your life.

Remember being a teenager? Were you ever in conflict because your parents told you that you weren't allowed to do something that you really wanted to do anyway?

Did you ever do it? Remember how exciting it was? Remember feeling guilty but excited at the same time? Remember how you felt powerfull and justified and looked at your parents as adversaries rather than your protectors and people you were subordinate to?

Ever been a young parent and go through a period of resentment wishing you hadn't had kids yet? Looking at all the things you could do if you didn't? Placing no value on the lives of the children or your role as parent?

Everyone and I mean everyone has waywardness inside them. it is very easy to understand.

The problem with trying to dialogue with a wayward about waywardness is that you are forgetting the rebellion element involved.

Trying to reason with the actively rebellious or trying to find resolution which requires anything resembling personal responsibility is like looking for a sober drunk in a bar.

Pointless.

Tyk, do you have Surviving an Affair and His Needs, Her Needs? Dr. Harley does a brilliant job of explaining how this happens in both. In HNHN, he explains the HOW, and in SAA, he focuses on eliminating the conditions that led to the temptation in the first place. He makes the point that the MAIN FOCUS should be on removing those conditions in recovery.

You might find this article very helpful: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5059_qa.html

Well, like I said, I do not know what would be the proper descriptor. I don't have any issue with agressive action. But agressive action has many forms and can be executed in many different ways. It is my opinion that there are times when there are more efficient (while still being agressive) methods.

But really, style debates are a waste of time. I imagine that you, like most people, are giving what you believe to be the best advice in what you believe to be the most efficient manner. Done voluntarily as well. So, IMHO, its not my place to ask you or anyone to tailor your message or modify your style into what I think it should be, or worse, into what I may want to hear. It's my responsibility to say thanks for the advice, consider it, and make my choices.


Yep, I heard you and have looked elsewhere.


I asked this once before on another post, but I'll ask again. Do you think that is really the nature of all the responses you've recieved? I don't think I've ever posted anything like this.


That was not my intent either. But in a macro way, this is sort of an analog to my orginal question.


Agree


I'm not picking on you here, but this sums up the feeling I get from my WW. It sounds as if never for a moment you thought it actually was a sincere desire to understand and help. Your very words "it was presented as a...", suggests a lack of trust. The intrepretation of the word challenge as adversarial or malacious. Leading to confirmation of your suspicions. What convinces you that the person asking these questions was insincere. I've not seen anything from Mrs. W that suggests she has bad intentions.

This is the same dynamic that happens with my WW. My opinions, ideas or thoughts are a presentation to her. To her they lack any possibility of genuine care or concern. She believes she knows my "real" motives it is only a matter of time until they are proven.


Possibly, but is this purely a function of tolerance for BS versus tolerance for WS? One could argue that the low ratio of WS to BS is due to the WS position being unsupportable. It is hard to not make that conclusion. I say this because both WS/BS start many a debate with the general premise that the reader just doesn't understand. In most occassions the BS continues to explain their position, while WS generally do not. And, at least IME, while the BS may not have to fight through being told they are selfish, lying cheats, they do have to fight through being told they are weak, of low self esteem or courage. Neither is very appealing, but BS generally seem to keep making their case.


Agree, this is less than ideal. But as alluded to above, BS seem to be the only one talking.


I've never been an advocate of this. Personally, I don't believe in ever ignoring a WS. I believe people speak as part of strategy to achieve an objective. There are times when one should ignore the words and hear the strategy/objective. Other times you should listen to the words. It just takes a lot of discipline to decide which.


Yes, I get your point. Just curious to me that while the BS objective is different, that the WS views it as malacious


I don't know. I guess the better we know the "alien", the better we can handle the situation.


Perfectly understandable. Hopefully, at some point you will get the time.


I spoke to this earlier in the post.


Well, maybe it hasn't deteriorated too far. I guess we'll see.

I am a FWW. I think that there are different types of WS's just like there are different types of BS's.

Some BS's won't tolerate an A and would divorce immediately, not even giving the WS a chance.

Some BS's hang on for a long time trying thru d-day after d-day.

Some WS's have an A and decide it was a huge mistake and commit fully to recovering their marriage (if the BS is willing).

Some WS's throw their whole being into it (the A) and fully feel they need to leave the M. No matter what the BS says or does, there is NO convincing them. It's all manipulation and empty promises, in their mind at least.

I think your wife might be the latter.

After I told my H about my A he started wanting to go everywhere with me. It was actually kind of nice. I liked having his company and help at the grocery store. We made an effort to do more together, to go out on the weekends, etc. It only lasted for so long though, he grew tired of those "mundane" chores.

I knew part of the reason he started to go with me to the store was to watch me, but hey, I didn't mind. I figured that was part of recovery. My A was back in 2001. Nowadays we have two very young ones (under the age of 3) and it's harder to go out on the weekends. We do make it a point to spend as much time together as possible. We talk on the phone throughout the day. Nothing is "forced" about the time we spend together.

If someone really WANTS to be with you, they wouldn't mind if you wanted to go ANYWHERE with them.

From what you've written, I think it's possible she just wants to move on and any attempts by you to get back into her head or life are seen as an annoyance. Keep in mind, I'm only going off what you've written. I've also read a lot of boards for OP. I'm not sure how much insight you'd gain into your situation there.

I do think there is a slight intolerance for the opinion of WS's here. We are accused of having no morals, being foggy, being nothing but huge liars. ******edit****** Just look at this thread. So it is hard for us to post what we are honestly thinking here.

I also agree with the poster that said sometimes they just don't have the energy to keep up the debate on here. Working full time and taking care of little ones will do that to you!! I can attest to that...

And then having to defend your moral character because you are the one who had an A. I've been accused of having no family values on here... I'm still married, 11 yrs and counting, and I've added two adorable children to my broad. I don't go out partying, I spend most all my spare time tending to my kids, making sure they are fed and loved, and spending time with my H. How awful of me!!!

Speaking of this other board:
If you go there,
you may like it or you may not.

Some do, some don't.

For me:
I didn't enjoy the total PC slant of it all.
{I don't relish it (PC) in real life .......so I don't desire to cater to it, when I actually have a choice in the matter}.
Keep in mind that Over there,
Even if someone is doing something I'd consider wrong .......you are NOT allowed to "judge" them or otherwise criticize in any manner or fashion.

The last straw for me personally,
was a poster that was edited and reprimanded for Getting on Themself. (putting Themself down for an action or thought they had).
It was really odd. [at least for me]
The moderators told the lady "your not Allowed to talk about yourself in this manner".
I was like "are you kidding"?? The woman was unHappy with herself and was venting a bit about it.

"Sorry, not permitted to express that Here"! Weird.

In addition,
I don't agree with the waywards commiserating with other waywards either --
On a protected (private) board No Less.
[So if your a BS, you won't get to read there anyway].
Unless you Lie, to gain access .....but that's your call.

For my money its Just too dangerous to let Affairees remain in the dark together.
I've seen the evidence [here] of what happens when a group of waywards come on and have each others back.
{One that stands out in my mind, were at least 3 WW's coming on and pining away for their A's and OM with the old "yes dear, I KNOW how you feel and I understand" routine.

Caused quit a stir a few yrs back.

Two eventually left ......One had some type of real life meltdown, While another went on to get yet a 2nd OM....which lead to her D.
Tragic really. I thought her and her H were gonna make it.

And this was all WITH oversight.
Imagine what happens when left to their own devices.

So I might check in there every other month or so .........cause honestly it really is SLOW over there and you don't miss much even if you only check in occasionally.
{Yes, I still check in once in a while cause many of the dear friends I've made On Here tend to post there sometimes}.

edit -sp- of course <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

As to other issues brought up:

I'll have to agree that "the fog" is used far too liberally [non political] in explaining away most anything a WS either does or says.

Now its true that blaming EVERYTHING on "the fog" is easier for the BS to stomach,
and therefore makes it more palatable to bringing the WS back into relationship.

{Sure helps to diffuse some of that resentment to blame that darn old FOG!}

However,
[IMO] it has taken on far toooo wide of a net [on the board]
& as a result tends to encompass ALL negative actions or statements a WS takes / makes.
Sadly, just ain't that simple.

[I'll not get a good grade for this one, but]
Unfortunately,
some of what a WS does and says really *is* what they believe & who they are.

toprope, I just don't understand why someone who has such hostility for the supposed "intolerance" of this board keeps coming back? To express THEIR own "intolerance" of the board, perhaps? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I don't know, if I don't like being some place, I LEAVE! REAL SIMPLE! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Not a problem. I like threadjacks


My sitch has many similaraties.


This may be a bit weird, but in my case I don't think its just justification for the A. I can't really describe it. Its a sort of unexpressed anger.


MT sure hates when I psycho-analyze her, but her goes. This is totally just my opinion and I could be completely wrong as MT won't talk much about it. I'll try to be brief and maybe you can share some insight. MT has never been authentic with anyone. She desires everyone's approval to such an extent that she will subordinate her on needs and wants completely. Go along to get along. However, this is not sustainable. The more she gives, the more expectations increase. This becomes too stressful. As the stress increases her taker comes out. When her taker comes out, she begins to be unable to maintain everyone's approval. Then she feels it is only a matter of time until she is exposed. She is terrified of the real MT being exposed. Rather than have the real MT exposed, she dissassociates with anyone she knows and starts over. Aside from her family, I am far and away the only person she has stayed in contact with for more than about 5 years. No friends from high school, none from college, she does not talk to anyone she use to work with from her old job. Even with her family, it is very much this way. She left home the minute she could and she tries to keep every visit with them very short.


Believe me, I've thought of that. It may in fact be true, but I doubt it simply because I've asked several times, "do you want me to file for a divorce". In fact, I've asked her if what she wants is exactly what you describe. She says no. But then, what do I do. Is she giving me the real answer, or is she telling me what she thinks I want to hear.

Either she doesn't know what she wants, or she does know it, but feels if she expresses it, she will be exposed.


No problem. Really am just trying to help.

it is the actions of WS that define them...not my words. Liars lie, cheaters cheat....are you saying that WS are not liars? Are you saying they are being moral? Do you believe that WS are not foggy?

There is no accusation..it is merely a statement of fact.

IMO,

The problem with WS "fog" is that there is no way to determine what is fog and what is not.

You really have to see someone acting in sound mind before you can allow yourself to be influenced by their probably very sophisticated defense mechanisms if you want to maintain ANY form of "reasonableness" or equitable..heck..not even equitable..PROPER distribution of responsibility.

Let's use MT as an example.

She is acting like a wayward...she is being immature, shirking accountability/personal ownership, and using passive resistance rather than saying..."I don't want this...I'll take my consequences now please."

So what..if anything...that comes out of her mouth is trustworthy or contextually accurate?

Nothing because she HERSELF doesn't know. She's saying yes and doing no..doing yes and saying no...uncooperative while proffessing to be "trying".

This is very revealing that whatever HER issues are with recovery...she hasn't owned them yet...so there isn't really anything you CAN do except kindly keep shoving them back onto her property when she hikes them over the fence.

If you say you want to come to the store..it means you want to come to the store. Maybe you want something..maybe you want her company..maybe you DO want to check up on her. All of these desires are on your side of the fence. She doesn't need to AGREE with you for your desires to be valid. Resisting them by suggesting that there is something wrong with verifying accountability is the reaction of a guilty person or one who is hanging onto independent behavior [an LB and not negotiable] with both fists and front teeth.

Neither of those attitudes are helpfull to recovery...they demonstrate an anti-recovery expectation and mindset.

Instead of trying to explain yourself [..you have only tripped over your own feet doing that for all of the years I have "known" you...this is looking for external validation..your vulnerable area] just assert that you WANT to go and don't discuss her DJs at all except to point them out when she makes an accusation based on one.

So that would look like...

"I want to go to the store with you"

"Why?! You just want to check up on me!"

"I want to go to the store with you, it is a disrespectfull judgement for you to assume you know what my motives are or what is going on in my head. I could just as easily assume that you DON'T want me to go with you because you plan to do something you know I'd object to behind my back. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to be on the level with you and say what I mean. Exactly what I mean."

Doing things in this way [while not conflict avoidant and not "nice"] WILL bring the REAL issues out into the open very quickly.

****edit**********8

Maybe your wife fears ************edit***********and she'll never be able to live up to your expectations now, so why bother?

when everything is blamed on the fog or dismissed as WS babble...the BS gets a pass on self reflection

my experience of these boards is that this is a popular position for many and i believe also why so many marriages do not recover

No WS wants to go back for more of the same.

Possibly.


FWIW, I haven't been trying to get back.


Very true.


Its a good point. I guess this basically goes back to what I said when I did a brief recap. Whatever the reason (for the lack of trust) may be, there isn't much I can do about it, nor did anyone suggest anything that says I may be "causing" it. I would have liked to hear from some of the FWS who said, "I didn't trust my BS", any ideas on what if anything could have be done.

I do find it somewhat ironic that this thread seemed to mimic in many ways the reason for my question. A lot of folks questioning the motives of others.


Sorry, with the edit I can't really follow this one.

****************Edit********

Questions or problems? Email me or Admin
JustUss2@aol.com

**************************************************


Best of luck to you.

What's with the word challenge? Is the MB forum a venue for dueling? On the board I alluded to, there's plenty of criticism of wayward thinking, particularly in the wayward forum - which is for those who have earned or are earning their F. What there isn't, anywhere on the board, is long threads filled with ad hominem attacks. Refreshing.

And BSs are more than welcome to post and ask questions, which they do.


Hmm. I suspect that we differ in our terms. That's fine.


Oh! Hearsay. I suspect it's simply a case of to each his own. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Threads full of vitriol sicken me. Infidelity is bad enough without adding fuel to the fire.


Actually....I think they do try very hard to understand the thinking of the falling down drunk. The active addict wants more. AA/NA teaches that one is too many and a thousand is not enough, so abstinence is the answer - just for today. If the programs didn't attempt to understand how the mind of the addict worked, they wouldn't be successful.

PK

Actually, they don't. They already understand the mind of a drunk so there is nothing NEW or novel to be gained there; if you have heard one drunk, you have heard them all. Rather, they tell the drunk to take the cotton out of his ears and put it in his mouth. He does not know HOW to recover, he only knows how to get drunk. Listening is the key to recovery, not yapping his mouth. The blind can't lead the blind, after all.


Perhaps, I am just going by the posted WARNING that any "disrespect" to waywards will be a cause for banning. Others from this forum were quite revolted by the rampant waywardness on that forum.

I would also add that if a DRUNK doesn't shut up at AA meetings, he is escorted off the premises. He is not allowed to disrupt the meeting with incoherent ramblings.

Rprynne,

You still around? I've been thinking (always dangerous, of course) about this:


Let's assume your assessment of MT is on target. Can't you see how the fears, mindset and patterns you describe might lead her to marry you, even if she she wasn't in love with you? Subordinating her own needs and desires to meet others' expectations? But then she can't dissasociate from this relationship... because staying married is now a big part of others' expectations.

And here's the real catch-22 for her. Becoming emotionally healthy will require her to learn how to be authentic. But staying in/trying to recover her marriage will require her to behave in ways counter to her true feelings. So she sits on the fence... stuck between a rock and a hard place... seeing no positive resolution... just stuck... biding her time.

Thoughts?

--SC

Yep, still around, just been trying to stay out of a few threads that seem particularly volatile

Thinking is a good thing.


Yes, I've thought about this possibility.


Truthfully, my thoughts are that there isn't much I can do about this. You know, my offer to her is pretty straightforward. I'm not looking for recovery. I'm looking for a resolution.

I believe my WW wants to leave me, but still be friends and have my respect. That isn't going to happen without her doing 4 things. Stop lying, stop contact with OM, move home for some period of time and give M recovery a try. If she does those four things and still isn't in love with me, then off we go. I think if she does those 4 things, she will be better off.

This is kind of why I ask the trust question. I can say the above till I'm blue in the face, she doesn't believe me.

Most of what your saying probably has some applicability to my WW's sitch. But here's what I think keeps her on the fence, more than anything else. She is waiting to feel like doing it. But, she is never going to feel like doing it. I don't think anybody does. I read the thread about why did FWS return to the M, and the paradox I saw has how few of the people responded by saying I felt like doing it. The vast majority said, while I didn't feel like doing it, I did it based on principles.

IMHO, being authentic is not about acting on feelings. Being authentic is saying what you are feeling.

I don't know. I feel like I'm the one person on the planet who has said, you don't need to lie to me and I won't lie to you, yet I seem to be the person she lies to the most and trust the least.

Perplexing.

If you do think MT feels as you described, what would you suggest I do to break the log jam. Like I said, in other posts. I just go about doing the best I can, either it will happen or it won't. If it doesn't at some point I'll just move on.

"FWIW, I haven't been trying to get back."

You said this in your reply to me in regards to your wife.

What are you trying to do then?

I meant it in two ways, the first was that I'm not the one actively trying to engage my WW in conversation or talk of reconciliation. You had mentioned that may be an annoyance to her.

As an example, out of the blue about a week ago, she told me she was "thinking of moving back home". I didn't ask or bring it up.

The second way I meant it is that I am not actively doing anything i.e. a plan A or B or what not.

You may have missed my previous posts, but I listed that I was looking for a resolution.

I guess I would just like her to say what she wants. I'm indifferent to what the answer is, just want to hear it. Probably I'm just being stubborn and just feel a little like, "hey we got here, all by your demanding this and that via take it or leave it offers, why bring us to the brink and wait for me to push us over".

If you really don't care, then isn't that your answer?

I mean, if you are indifferent, then why bother entertaining the notion of putting yourself through the work of recovery should she even choose to agree to do so?

If you are indifferent, then why aren't you moving on? Even if you don't care to meet someone else right now, wouldn't it be in your best interests to put yourself in a position to where if you did, you'd be unencumbered by marriage to a woman you didn't care about? A woman who cheated on you and drove you to the point of indifference?

I just don't get the logic and suspect that perhaps you DO care, and that's ok, but if that is the case, then I don't understand why you would feign indifference.

Ah, fair point.

First off, I wouldn't feign one thing or another. Kind of shoots the whole get advice thing in the foot.

I posted in a bit of a rush last night, since I had a meeting.

The word indifferent was a poor choice. As I sit here, I can't think of a better one, so I'll try to explain.

I certainly have a preference. My preference would be to make an attempt at marital recovery. I used the word indifferent in meaning that I'm not afraid of concerned about a plan D.

I wish I could help you in a concrete way (like providing concrete examples of what you can do) but all I can do is offer insight from the FWW point of view. My situation is different in that there has never been discovery by my BS. The affair is over, no contact, NO FOG, recovering on my own and my marriage, and trying to make my marriage what it wasn’t before so I will never, ever stray again.

So, the reason your post strikes me is because I don’t trust H either and I find myself second guessing or reading into his motivations for doing or saying things, as you have said MT does with you. The big difference is that I know he hasn’t changed the way he interacts with me because he doesn’t even know about the affair. It is all me and my perceptions!

I did this to some extent (reading motivations into H’s actiona) before the affair and definitely more often and more intense after my affair. A lot of what Lexxy and SC say, explains exactly how I felt about why I do this. And I still don’t know if it is just me or if H really does have ulterior motives sometimes that even he won’t admit or recognize in himself.

Learning2Fly said of WS’s…


In my case, nothing H does is evaluated by its impact on the affair because my H doesn’t even know of the affairs existence. Yet I still doubt H’s intentions sometimes. No good answer or response accept that maybe it is a valid observation or concern of MT’s that you haven’t yet been able to see inside yourself. This is the only thread I have read of yours, and it looks like you have done a lot of introspection and work on yourself, but maybe – just maybe there could be more.

Tyk said


To Tyk, just because she never “ACTED” unhappy doesn’t mean it wasn’t so or that that wasn’t the truth. I never, ever “acted” unhappy and my H thought we had the best marriage ever, but I was extremely unhappy! I am a good actor and I have lead everyone – even those closest to me and especially H - to believe we have an awesome marriage unparalleled by any, when my reality is that I was so unhappy I was planning a D and remarriage and life with OM!!

I also recognize that I use extreme conflict avoidance and I would do almost anything to hide or avoid any conflict or even let any hint of unhappiness show through because then, I believed I was the bad wife. I was unappreciative of what I had. I was the one causing problems in the relationship. I was the bad one! So, I became an excellent pretender.

Rprynne:

Your psychoanalysis of your wife sounds like you are writing about me! Kind of scary - but in response, my desire for approval and my inauthenticity applies to H as well. I want H (and everyone else) to think I am a great wife, great mother, great, loving person when I know better (at least that is what I have told myself for so long). I think you hit the nail on the head when you say that subordinating one’s own needs for the desire to please and seek approval is not sustainable forever.

Now, I am looking inward and I see a lot of things I have to change, but until your MT looks inward, I don’t see that there is a lot that you can do about it. Probably just continue to let her know that it is safe for her to be authentic with you. I am not saying that will spur any change in her, but at least she knows she will have a safe place to work on herself. She needs to do it from within.

Your comment about asking MT if she wants a divorce and then her answering “no” but you not really knowing if she is giving the real answer. I would guess that if she really meant no, she would do the four things you have asked of her. I would also venture to say that there is a strong possibility she is saying “no” because she knows that is exactly what you want to hear and then she is still not the “bad guy” because she is saying she doesn’t want a divorce. This is exactly what I would do if my H asked me if I wanted a divorce. I would convince him I didn’t want a divorce and tell him everything I thought he wanted to hear, just so I could continue my appearance of the “dedicated, committed wife” even if that isn’t how I really felt.

And then the catch-22 that SC describes as being stuck between wanting to stay in the marriage/recover the marriage but also wanting to become healthy by learning how to be authentic seem to contradict each other and can’t coexist at the same time. My response is the same as yours,
And to your last question:


I don’t know what you can do to break the log jam. I learned the hard way and had to break the log jam myself because I realized I couldn’t continue to live like I had been for the previous 32 years of my life. It took me having an affair to realize I had a lot of work to do on me before I could accurately interpret and perceive H’s perspective without throwing my whole warped viewpoint on everything he did or said.

Sorry I took so long to say something I think you know. It isn’t you, it is her and pretty much anything you do can’t change her perceived reality. Only she can do that.

So, when are you going to be honest with your H, Norcal?

No honesty in your M = no hope for a true recovery!

The longer you choose to be honest = the more hurtful it will be to your H when he DOES find out!

You can only contribute 50% to your M - the other 50% needs to come from your H. If he doesn't know the REAL you, and doesn't know what needs of yours went unmet, then he will not know what he needs to do to fill his 50%. And the longer you wait to tell him, the more he will feel like you stole time from his life and his right to choose who to live it with from him.

Thanks for the response, do you mind if I cross-examine a bit? You say you were unhappy, yet you would never let on that you were unhappy, and you were a good enough actor to decieve everyone about it. How did you ever expect to become happy if you refused to tell your H what was wrong? What I am reading is that you were unhappy and wouldn't do what was necessary to give your husband a chance to make you happy by telling him. Its understandable that maintaining such a facade would generat a ton of resentment, but do you see how that resentment isn't caused by your H?

And that is kind of what I mean when I say that WS create thier own reality, and in doing so they create the conditions which justify (in thier minds) an affair.

And my W could feel exactly like you do/did. I appreciate the insight, I like poking into the mind of WS, its kinda like watching interviews with serial killers! (I'm joking! (kinda)):P .

I think you should tell your H the truth too. What is the point of pretending to build a good strong marriage when you have to fear that deep down inside that if your H really knew you he might not want to be with you? Give him a chance to prove you wrong, give both of you the chance to live a life based on the truth. If you love him, why would you want him to spend the rest of his life with a person that he doesn't even know? If he loves you, he will forgive you.

Lexxy responded to me further in my Post D-Day thread if you want to read what she had to say.

MIM - good question. Don't know yet. Probably when I spend so much time and effort and finally believe that I can't fix it by myself. I can't predict how long that will take me though.

Tyk - I was operating off the premise that if you behave a certain way for long enough you will eventually feel it. Kind of like choosing to love or be happy. As long as I was acting like I loved unselfishly and acted happy my emotions would change to match the behavior. Obviously that didn't work out as nicely as I had envisioned. I can't remember the saying exactly but something like "if you act happy, you will be happy." I see now that the notion of act happy, be happy is total nonsense to me and doesn't work.

And yes, I do see how the facade of pretending to be happy and not giving H a chance to prove me wrong did build a ton of resentment on my part. And you are 110% accurate in that I caused the resentment, not H. Working on that now too.

What you just said is the crux of my entire marriage - I didnt trust that H would love me before the affair if he ever knew the real me (thus my pretending). Now that I had my affair, that mistrust in his ability to love me is magnified because I proved what a bad person I really am. And if there was ever a chance of him loving the real me, he won't now for sure because I just proved what a horrible person I really am.

But you see that you are continuing in the exact same way, doing the exact same thing that led to the A in the first place? Only now you aren't just pretending to be happy, now you're pretending to be happy and faithful.

I just don't see how that is sustainable in the long run. What's to keep you from falling back into the same self generated resentment trap? Why do you have so little faith in your husband that you think he can't handle the truth? Will it be easy? No. Has it been easy? Is it easy now? It sounds like you've done some work trying to understand yourself, but you're still in many ways doing the same things.

Then the correct time to do it is NOW.



The answer to your dilemma is to simply tell him and stop stealing from him the choice to choose who he wants to spend the rest of his life with. Quite likely he will surprise you and want to continue the M. And if he doesn't, at the very least you no longer have to fear how he really feels about you and what that might mean for your relationship.

We all make bad choices at some point in our lives Norcal, (though I must admit, deciding to have an A ranks right up there amongst the worst things we can choose to do). However, by continuing to lie to your H, you are choosing to continue to do him wrong - do you see this?

Oh, I hate that! I just spent 20 minutes on my reply, hit "continue", then I get an error message and everything disappears.

Answer was:

I know the self generated resentment trap isn't sustainable. We are working on stuff together and I am working on how I do things. We are both doing things differently because we both want to change the results.

Right now I can only come up with one reason as to why I have so little faith in my husband to think he can't handle the truth. And that is me projecting my feelings on him. If I can't stand myself for having the affair, how can I expect that he would still love me?

I am doing many things the same, but many things differently and am learning more and more together with H.

Don't want to TJ rprynne's thread and original question on why WS wouldn't trust his motives as a BS. I just wanted to offer my persepctive that maybe his WS didn't trust him before so she trusts even less after even though it is her issue. As in my case, me not trusting in H's love is my stuff, not H's lack of love.

MIM - I know all the right reasons to disclose. I still read through my own thread on whether to tell or not for more clarity. So yes, I do see I am continuing to wrong H. Again, I don't know how long it will take me to see the futility in what I am currently doing.

rprynne likes thread jacks, he said so the last time I jacked his thread!

Next time you lose a post, if you just click "back" when you get the error message, you can copy the text of your message, then go back to the thread and hit reply again and paste it. Happens to me all the time, I think its when someone posts a reply in between when you click "reply" and "post".

Norcal: I would say that the BS here should be evidence enough for you that your H could be capable of forgiving you, especially since you are apparently repentant and are learning from your mistakes.

I hope you gain the courage to do so and I hope your H is able to forgive you. Thanks for the replies to my questions as well.

Rprynne,

Okay. And…? What…? Dismissed it? Think it’s likely? Just not sure? Believe it doesn’t really matter?




First of all, I wholeheartedly agree that she would be better off if she did those things. However, it’s not your responsibility to be her emotional health care provider. (I know you know that. Just reminding you, okay?) I believe you will BOTH be better off if she does what you propose… But you can only control/take care of… you.

Have you clearly defined what “give M recovery a try” means? Have you decided how long you will wait for her to get on board before you cut bait? And if she agrees to those four things… and follows through for a set amount of time… and still isn’t in love with you… will you really be able to let her go w/ your respect and friendship? Really? Are you sure?

I’m not questioning your sincerity, R. I hope it doesn’t seem that way. I’m just asking you to do a gut check on this point. Here’s why…

Unless I have misinterpreted some of your posts, you seem to be of the belief that anyone who follows MB can be “in love” with anyone else. And that a person can just “decide” to love her spouse. I have done in my own marriage, what you have asked MT to do in yours. And your advice to me continues to be along the lines of – forget about the past, focus on today, and decide to love him. I appreciate that advice b/c as far as I can see, it’s my ONLY hope at this point.

But it also makes me wonder… when it comes time for your “resolution”… and MT says, “I tried. It didn’t work.”… if you will believe her. Or will you think, “You obviously didn’t try hard enough. Why can’t you just decide to love me?”.


I would certainly fall into that category, as well. I definitely didn’t feel like doing it. At all. My 2005 affair had a lot of the hallmarks of an exit affair. I WANTED out! I stayed in… based on principles. And I would agree that that’s the way it BEGINS for a lot of W’s. You grit your teeth and take those first few steps because you believe you should. But from what I have observed… most of those who go on to succeed at R their M’s… move from forcing themselves to do it… to wanting to do it in pretty short order.

Again, though, I do agree with you… you have to be willing to take those first few steps… pushing against your own feelings.




Interesting statement, rprynne. I hardly know where to begin with that one. Are you up for a lengthy discussion on the role of feelings/emotions in our lives and what it means to be authentic?



When she tells you the truth… and it’s not what you want to hear… or it doesn’t mesh with your perception of things… how do you respond? (hint: think back to your conversations about her lack of feelings for you when you got married.)



I don’t have any bright ideas beyond what you’ve already done. You can set the stage… which you have done... but you can not force her to “perform”. The only thing I can think of is to once again reflect on whether or not you’ve really created a safe environment for her to bare her soul.

--SC

Wow. Lots of responses. I'll try to comment on the ones that struck me.



My first question, is this really about trusting your H's motivations or is it about trusting his abilities? People lose faith in other people's abilities to "get the job done". In M's, we do it because we have observed our partner's failures. Usually painfully so. But here's the catch if one is not being authentic. They have set their partner up to fail. And even worse, that data is then used to proove that they can not be successful. It's a bit of rigged experiment.

This is sort of like filling out an ENq and then lying about it because you don't won't to hurt your spouses feelings. It can appear that the spouse is incapable of meeting your most important EN's, but the reality is unknown, because they have never tried.


Agree, I try to make it safe.


No need to be sorry. I think you provided some useful insights.



Your statement suggests that your premise was if I fill my day with small units of happiness (derived by avoiding conflict, avoiding potential blows to your self esteem, avoiding fears), that they will have cumulative effect that leads to a large amount of happiness.

I mean when I see that, two things come to mind. The first is perhaps your premise is correct. Small units may add up to a big item. But the execution seems flawed. Sort of trapped (i get these confused sometimes) in a cycle of self imposed negative punishment (the removal of something painful). Would a better strategy be to seek out positive reinforcement (the addition of something pleasant). Im no expert, but negative punishment seems to lead on a downward spiral, but positive reinforcement is an upward thing. KWIM.

The second, is the premise that small units will eventually lead to large cumulative effect. Certainly this is part of the premise of the love bank. But, IMHO, deposits in the love bank are a decaying asset. Time erodes the negative and positive balances. Or at least their is an element of reversion to the mean or reversion to neutrality. Anyway, my point is I don't know that small units (even if provided on a daily basis) ever add up to a large balance that crosses the threshold required for "romantic" love. If not, then one needs some big deposits in the love bank. Which would make a greater deposit in your love bank. When a person professes their love and admiration for a person you are pretending to be, or when a person professes their love and admiration for the person you really are?


Similar to my point above. This would be a big deposit.


But, my oh my, what if he did? Risk vs. return. I sympathize with how hard it is, but IMHO, its a matter of risk tolerance. In my observations many WS's overstate the return from the A and understate the risk. They completely reverse their position on risk tolerance when it comes to their BS. Understate the returns and overstate the risks.


I don't know. Its probably likely. I don't dismiss it, but its on her side of the line, so to speak. I could create 1,000 scenarios about this or that. Kind of why I had the follow up question of if this is the case, what can I do, except wait to see if she works through it or move on. Its a shame. MT once said to me, "that's you. You decide what has to be done and you do it, you're built that way" To some that may be a compliment, but to me it was disrespectful. It says, your personal demons are easy to deal with. They aren't, I just deal with them. So, I don't discount MT's personal demons, I just wish she would see that dealing with them is not a matter of measuring their severity.


No, I have not defined it. I have said that the definition of that could be POJA'd.

Yes, I have a time line. It is essentially the same one I had at my first d-day, with one extension.

Yes, I could let her go. I know sometimes this may be hard to believe, but I don't want MT to be unhappy. Yes, just like any other BS, my first reactions on d-day were tinged with fear and uncertainty and a general desire to have her just stay in the M. But those feelings quickly change. It doesn't take long to realize that I am not going to be happy if MT is not happy. Very few BS's wants their WS to be unhappy. What they want is them to test it out. They want the chance to see what would happen if we created an environment that gave the M, and each others love, the best opportunity. I/we never got that chance.


No, I do not believe in all cases that if you follow MB you can be "in love". What I believe is that it can not be predicted. The only way to know for sure with a particular person is to perform a "clean" experiment. My advice to people is usually directed towards "cleaning" up the experiment. I think BS and WS owe it to themselves to truly test it out.

SC - I admire you for going back to your M. I admire the fact that you are making an effort. It is possible you never loved your H. It is possible that you married for the wrong reasons. But, IMHO, those are sunk costs and you can't change the past. My advice to you is centered around one thing. Whatever happens, whatever the outcome, you will be happier if you know you made a true effort. I think you know this, and its why you seek out advice. Now, I don't believe you have to follow every bit of advice to pass the test of did you make a true effort. You are the only one who gets to keep the score on that. What I have tried to say is that thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are linked and interrelated. Based on your posts, it sounds to me (and I may be wrong) that you are constraining your feelings via your thoughts and behaviors. This is not a power of positive thinking speech, its merely a statement that, based on what you've posted, it sounds like you have introduced bias into your experiment. You seem to express that you do not think "fake it till you make it" will work, and I think this this influences whether it will. It sounds as if you have not adopted PORH, in as much as it does not sound like you have told your H what you are feeling. These factors can introduce bias into your experiment. So what to do. Well, you can conclude that my premise is wrong (i.e. thoughts, feelings, behaviors are not related). You can conclude that I'm incorrectly reading the data (i.e. you really do think "fake it till you make it" will work). You can modify the experiment (i.e. open up to your H about your feelings). Finally, you can can all the MB principles and try something different. What really matters, IMHO, is whatever you do, will you believe you made a true effort.


I could give you an answer as to what I think, but the reality is, I don't know. But, similar to some of my points above, this is a risk vs return analysis for MT, and my opinion as to whether she tried hard enough is irrelevent. What does she gain by trying and succeding vs. not trying vs. trying and failing. IMHO, if you rank those in order trying and succeding would be best, followed by trying and failing, followed by not trying. Its impossible to predict success or failure, so you remove those from the decision criteria and your left with try or don't try, with try ranked ahead. Of course her analysis may be different.


And let me ask, how many of your sucesses have been preceded by doing something you didn't feel like doing?


Any time. I have some fairly lengthy insights on the human experience. I believe in a "transactional" relationship model, with a "experiential" development model.


In the past, I responded poorly. I won't lie. I took advantage of MT's nature. I was manipulative. Now when I say that, most people will think "ah, you must be a cruel person". But I think this is the mistake people make when someone says your WS is manipulating you. You don't have to be evil or consciously aware that you are doing it in order to be manipulative. You learn, you pick it up over time, it comes innately after multple interactions with a person. This is sort of the death spiral of my M. Who knows when it first happened, but my WW told me something I didn't want to hear which made me unhappy and I responded negatively, and she changed her tune (which was being inauthentic), which made me happy. Repeat, repeat, repeat. So yes, after I few years she's miserable and I think everything is AOK. What can I say, I grew up in a family were conflict avoidance was not a problem. We fought. Regularly. MT grew up in a family where conflict avoidance was the rule. They never fight. Bad mix, wish we had spotted it sooner.

How do I respond now? As best I can, with a poker face. But, and this goes back to the trust thing, my response has now become irrelevent. MT has already decided how I will feel about something she tells me, and if I don't express that feeling, she assumes I'm lying.

You know, I realized after d-day, that I did not "know" MT. What I knew was a presentation of herself. That presentation of herself influenced who I was. Because of that, MT does not "know" me. I wish all the folks who are not being open and honest with their spouse would realize this dynamic. If you are acting, your spouse will respond to your performance. Stop acting and you would be surprised at what you learn about them. You might just connect.


As best I can.

I had a great Thanksgiving. I called my WW on Thanksgiving, to wish her a Happy Thanksgiving and that her and her sister have a great time together. She didn't wish me a Happy Thanksgiving she just asked, "I thought we were going to talk when you got, back. I don't understand why you are checking on me." She is very paranoid that everything I do is to check on her. If I ask about her friends, or how her day was, or if she went shopping it is all to check on her. She seems very paranoid, that everything I do has an ulterior motive. I sent her parents an Email to wish them a Happy Thanksgiving and she was pissed that I did it so that they would pressure her to get back together with me. Is there a reason all of my PLAN A efforts are being misconstrued? I am really trying to be a better man, and she is telling me everything I do to be better is wrong? Is this a fairly normal thing? Is it because she is trying to protect her affair. I guess I should just do the right things and let her figure out for herself that I am sincere.

Ryan.

FYI for those that are intersted. My WW says she wants to move back home and give things a try. She said she was willing to do MC, but not with the Harley's anymore. I don't know if I understand that.

Back to my point about trust, she also said she was worried that if we tried to work things out and it didn't work, that I would hate her. I asked why she would think that and she said because that's "what I told her". I just don't get this. Its exactly opposite of what I told her.

Anyway, she said she was going to try to get a leave of absence from work and move back, and if her company wouldn't agree to that, she would quit her job.

I asked why she was moving back and she said because her IC told her that she would never be able to fix her intimacy issues if she didn't address our M.

RP,

What are your requirements, other than MC, for her moving back in?

LA

I am happy for you though discouraged that she wants to come back for the wrong reasons.

She's not coming back because it's the right thing to do or to make amends and repent for her deceipt rather because her IC thinks she needs to address HER intimacy issues.

Doesn't mean it won't work. It's a typically foggy reason to try and better than not getting any shot.

I truly hope your perseverence is rewarded.

Use MB principles yourself and see whomever she wants. Try to find a guy/girl counselor that uses MB principles but advise them NOT to address them as such.

Best of luck,

Mr. Wondering

What does it mean to "address" your marriage EXACTLY? Does it mean she is committed to fixing the problem in her MARRIAGE? Or does that mean she wants to come home to perform some experiment to fix something inside HER? Perhaps to say goodbye?

I would be asking her this: are you committed to coming home and fixing our marriage?

If she can't answer in the affirmative, I would fear she planned to come home for other reasons, such as a) alleviating her guilt by assuring herself she "did everything," b) lonliness at the holidays, c) some quest for personal growth that is no way related to fixing your marriage.

None of those reasons would be to your benefit and would instead cause you great harm.

The thing about IC is that they are focused on only PERSONAL pursuits at the expense of the marriage, so I would keep that in mind.

I am very concerned about her refusal to counsel with the Harleys. Did she give a reason? Because the usual reason for avoiding Steve Harley is because he cannot be snowed. He has a GREAT BS detector.

rprynne, does she have a case of wayward holiday lonliness? It is not uncommon that a wayward will try and come back for the holidays to "try things out" only to leave 3 days after Christmas.

I think that's good news no matter what her reasons are for coming home. It will give her the opportunity to witness the work you've done on yourself, and give you the opportunity to see first hand where she's at.

I hope it goes well.

Tyk, he has been through this before, though.

Yeah. I'm not setting off any fireworks. I've been down this path before.


Kind of what I thought.


Well, I don't really know. She was the one that brought up MC and I don't think she plans to move in with me, just back to our house. I moved into an apartment closer to work.

For lack of a better way to say it, I'm not at the negotiating table anymore. The last false recovery sort of ended that. About 4 months ago she asked if I would wait six months before doing anything. I said I would. Now she said she wants to do this. I said fine. Probably less than an ideal approach to recovery, but their just doesn't seem to be any POJA or anything like that. All I get is take it or leave it offers. Some I take, some I leave. This is one where it seemed to be okay to take the offer. If anyone disagrees, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.


I don't know. MT does not share much about her IC. If I had to guess, I would say that her IC has told her something to the effect of she is running away from her problems and that isn't going to work, etc.


She did not give a reason. I think this has more to do with the fact that she never bought in to the MB approach, coupled with the fact that she probably feels she let SH down.


Well, first I'll say I won't believe she is coming home till I see it. Second, I'm not really sure of her reasons. Most likely, her reasons are less than ideal. But I don't think she is ever going to get to the ideal reasons. She isn't going to commit to it until she's sure it will make her happy, and she can't be sure it will make her happy unless she commits to it. Bit of a catch 22.


Its not this. Nothing she has said has changed my holiday plans or was presented in a way to get me to change my plans.

Thats an impossible standard, though. She can't be happy unless and until she commits to it and works hard on the marriage. Even then, there are no guarantees she will be successful. But her happiness is contingent on herself, not on some unknown element. If that is her standard, then I would agree that this is doomed from the start.

The most important question for you, IMO, is what will she do to ensure that you won't be hurt again in a false recovery? I don't know about you, rprynne, but I would not be willing to take that risk again unless she had a very convincing and compelling selling story. And her selling story, thus far, does not contain any benefit FOR YOU.

She only talks about what SHE WANTS. Well, customers buy things based on what they want, not what the seller wants. Where are your benefits? I don't know any VP's who would buy anything from me just because it benefited me. They would take a pass, and I think you should too unless and until she produces a darn good reason for you to buy.


Not yet, you mean. But she knows they will change if she comes back, right?

I absolutely think you should leave it, Rprynne.

Unless you hear the words and see the actions of "I will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to repair this marriage", tell her thanks but no thanks.

For all the reasons Mel states, and because you are worth more and so is your marriage.

And because, as a woman, I know that taking what ever she happens to throw your way, for her own purposes entirely, will not gain her respect. And if she does not respect you, she will not submit wholly to your marriage.

Do not feed her selfish, entitlement Rprynne.

My gosh, coming home because her IC said she needs to work on her intimacy issues, without a care to how it will effect you....well it is just so selfish. Pisses me off, really.

However, since it is her house still, too, I suppose she can go stay in it if she wants. But I would tell her that unless she is 100% committed to you and the marriage to stay away from you while she is in town.

Tell her you changed your mind, based on her reasons, or better yet her lack of reasons... not enough to keep you interested in rebuilding. More insulting than anything else.

agreed

Agreed,

Rprynne this is a BAD idea...so much so and so obviously so that I am really and truly shocked [as in jaw dragging on the floor] that you are even considering it.

It is a bad idea from every possible position. MT has intimacy issues, character issues, maturity issues..not EN issues.

If she is unwilling to commit to the things that would allow her ENs to be satisfied or even to recognise that it is not YOUR unwillingness to meet her ENs but her own marital sadism which will not allow her satisfaction in a healthy mature and intimate relationship with ANYONE then what exactly is the point?

She has walked this cycle before...selfishly...same as always.

I would ask her 1 what's different this time and 2 why should I WANT her to come home. What's in it for ME?

If the answer is nothing..pass on it. Seriously.

rprynne, what do you WANT to happen? What more are you willing to take?

It just seems to me that this M is running out of options. Rprynne seems to be entering into a truly apathetic mindset regarding his WW, and you can't get much further from love than apathy.

If you don't allow her to come home and use that time to Plan A and observe your wife, give her a chance to be around you and see what she is missing, then how are you going to ever really know? If you deny her the chance to come home in all likelihood she is going to simply believe and accept that it is over. If you don't want her to come home, perhaps it IS over?

No, she might not be coming home for the right reasons, but Harley in his books says that this is often the case with wayward spouses. They'll come home for the kids, for the family, for the financial security, whatever. Its not great, but its a chance to really see where she's at and what she's capable of.

I have alot of respect for all the posters with a different opinion rprynne and they may in fact be right. But I don't agree and I just wanted you to know that.

Tyk,

Probably the reason you do not agree is because you are not aware of the scope of time and the Plan As that have ALREADY occurred.

Had you been along for the ride I would bet that you would agree..my .02.

In another wayward we would have the same position that you do..the beginning place [I call it]. The opportunity to make deposits. Even if they are there for the wrong reasons the are still physically present.

Right, we get it...we know why and how you feel the way you do.

MT is different. She has intimacy and character problems that go deeper than your average wayward.

PS..in FALSE recovery Harley tells the BS to RAISE THE BAR and require MORE to be willing to cooperate with a desire to come home.

That applies here precisely.

I agree - and I feel I am well protected. I mean, I've gone to great lengths to separate everything. I live on my own, no joint credit cards, no joint checking, etc. Heck we've even split up the cats. I have one she has the other. The last false recovery really hurt. I'm just not going to get invested emotionally, so I think I'm well protected.


No, this is pretty solid. Nothing will change.


I agree that respect is an issue, although MT claims it is not. FWIW, I don't take whatever she happens to throw my way.


Yeah, I wasn't real pumped up about this answer either


Its a question I will ask.

Okay, for all those that say you shouldn't agree to this, here's my thinking. My WW was already moved out, had a new job and living with OM before I knew about the A. Really, she was hardly at home for the 1.5 years before she left. I've always viewed the living apart as the second biggest problem (obviously contact with OM being the biggest), in terms of even moving in the right direction.

The two of us living in the same town has to produce some positive benefit, even if she does it for the wrong reasons. Right? At a minimum she won't be living in OM's town.

I just don't see my WW ever agreeing to "whatever it takes" while we are separated. To her, reconciliation already has too much downside, too poor of a return. If I raise the price of admission..., I don't know.

If someone can connect the dots for me, maybe I'll understand better. I just don't see how saying to her, "don't bother moving home, if your going to have that attitude" moves us closer to an attempt at recovery. Just seems to me, that doing that leaves me in the same place.

Agreeing to let her come home without any committment leaves you in the same place.

What you are not acknowledging is that nothing moves "us" closer to recovery without her cooperation.

She is part of "us" 50% in fact and 100% of her end of the deal.


You know..her IC is likely on the right path but incompletely or MT is understanding it incompletely.

MT is [as ever] looking for the magic pill..it doesn't exist. Moving home while making no preparations and no committments has nothing to do with learning how to invest in her life which was likely the whole point of the suggestion.

After all..no guru would say..climb that mountain..you'll learn about yourself and become strong wihout assuming that the person climbing would bring food, water, and shelter.

In order for the excercise to work she has to lay the foundations.

But MT is used to leaving that to someone else and having them drag her reluctantly up the mountain resenting them the whole way. She doesn't contribute anything to the climb and she doesn't get anything from it. She then determines it was pointless and futile...and for HER it was because she rejected the central objective and instead focussed on the fact that she has been physically up and then down the mountain.

Make sense?

By refusing to carry her bag FOR her she has to take responsibility for her own unwillingness and the consequences of that unwillingness. By refusing to drag her up the mountain [the old dance] she has to decide if she wants to go up it or not and HOW badly she wants to do it or not do it.

She receives the gift of self awareness by your REFUSAL to cooperate with the old dance steps.

She has chanted the mantra "I don't know what I want..I don't know what I want" for so long..the reason she doesn't know what she wants is because she hasn't had to LEARN what matters to her in order to make decisions for herself that she will bleed for and mean it.

She doesn't know who she is because her entire personality exists in fantasy...she doesn't choose and own...then she resents that loss of identity when others choose FOR her.

So don't choose for her. Leave her right where she is standing until she moves her own feet.

She needs to earn her way back into your life. It is the only way she will respect you, your marriage or herself. There has to be some struggle for her to repair what SHE has broken... for her to appreciate you as well as herself. This is basic human psychology.

It doesn't take a psychologist to figure that out. Her intimacy issues are self-induced because she puts herself first and her husband and marriage last.

When you continually look without, instead of within, you end up valuing nothing. And you are not pulling out the safety net, so she has to look within. You keep your safety net underneath her, thus preventing her from being FORCED to look within herself.

If you want a marriage with a wife who has self-respect, and who respects and values you, then stop settling for so little from her. Demand more.

Rprynne, if my daughter trashes the house, I demand that she be the one to put it back together... to clean it. She learns respect for our home, for me and for herself as she repairs what she has damaged. If I simply threw a fit and then cleaned it up myself, she would have very little respect for herself, for me, and for our home.

Doesn't that make sense to you?

I would make her earn her way into my life again, if I were you Rprynne.

The gift of self-awarness. I love that. Well said.

PS..it is not a coincidence that the WSs who have such big problems knowing who they are and what they want as long term personality traits also have BS who will accept crumbs. No coincidence at all.

Well, I took the time to read your whole story rprynne (ya, slow day at work for me! :P) Your whole situation is baffling to me. I don't understand how or really why you have allowed this to continue for so long. I guess it really has to be simply because it just doesn't bother you all that much, if it did, you wouldn't, right?

I still think that having her there is preferrable to having her gone, it gives the marriage the best chance. However, I don't think its a good chance.

Maybe, just maybe, she's coming home because she wants to, and using her counselor's advice as an excuse? It seems a pretty flimsy excuse to come home, coming from someone who has not seemed to have much interest in working on herself in the past. Who can know? I don't really see much reason for her to come home other than her wanting to, for whatever reason. Its not like you've been able to do something to make her want to in the past, I don't think anything you do or don't do has much influence on her at this point does it? So logically one must assume that she's coming home because she wants to. She doesn't have to, she doesn't need to, it isn't the easiest path for her seemingly, so for whatever reason, she wants to come and be around you. If she wants to come home to be with you, well, it could very well be just more of the same. It could be that she's trying to make the decision to come home and work on the marriage but won't allow you to be the one to set the terms?

The situation that you've had isn't sustainable, I don't know how much longer you would endure it, but at some point it isn't going to work for one of you. So what is there to lose by her coming home? You want her to come home for the right reasons, you want her to come home to commit to working on the marriage on YOUR terms, in that she wants to come and commit and really try. That's entirely reasonable for you to want that. It hasn't happened and seems unlikely to happen. Insisting that it happen that way won't make it happen, and you won't insist to the point where its either that way or no way.

So you accept crumbs. Maybe it doesn't bother you that you're accepting crumbs, I don't understand it, but its what its been. Maybe you feel you deserve crumbs for what you've done in the marriage in the past? It doesn't matter, just call it what it is and has been.
She's caching her return as casting more crumbs, a bigger crumb than you've had from her in a while, granted. If she returns, and it doesn't go well, well, she never told you she was going to commit to making it work did she? She's there to work on intimacy issues, which is fine if she means intimacy in the sense that she is trying to build an intimate relationship with you. There's a lot of work to be done before true intimacy can even be sniffed isn't there? Intimacy is a lofty goal, its really what you want to achieve too, right? If you can achieve intimacy, really, you're on the road to recovery, if not recovered. It seems doubful that all that work is what she has in mind, but, maybe?

Basically, what do you have to lose? Insisting that she return on your terms is likely to cause her not to return, right? Which is good for you in a way, for you sticking to your principles, setting boundaries, and protecting yourself, but bad for the end goal of marital recovery if doing those things right now won't give your M the best chance to recover. I understand the idea of setting the bar higher and all, but what really are the chances of her jumping higher? Less I would say than the chance of her coming home with the goal of working on intimacy issues resulting in something more.

I believe that you present a good argument for not stopping her from coming home, but in reality he can't stop her from coming home anyway. And it is this reality that may work in his favor, IF he plays it right. And that is by not dancing as he has in the past (using Noodles symbolism).

For instance she is free to come back to the town where she owns a home. Rprynne has no say in that matter, he does however have a say in how willing he is to let her back into his life, based on her unwillingness to offer him any protection whatsoever to his heart, should he (let her back in).

I would tell her she is free to live where ever she wants, but I am not willing to be her IC intimacy guiney pig.

I'd play it very, very cool until she actually had the eye opening, light bulb experience of realization that she and she alone determines her own happiness, and that her marriage is worth fighting for.

We can help Rprynne do this. But just saying, "yes, I want you to come home and work on your intimacy problems and I will be here to practice on"...well I think that will only get Rprynne more of the same as what he has been getting. It's the same dance they have been dancing, basically.

She will earn her way out of the marriage alright, which is what it sounds like the IC has in mind to me.

You and Rpynne are saying that maybe this will get her back into the marriage in sort of a back door sort of way, because of her close proximity, I think.

I personally would tell her not to call me until she plans on committing, but if this is the way you want to go with this Rprynne -


WW's rely on feelings (generated from outside sources and feelings alone. So, if you use this to your advantage Rpyrnne, by playing the game of romance (mystery, hard to get, etc)...then, perhaps.

People relying on feelings of romance to catapult them into actions mimicking intimacy (this is what governs waywards)...respond to the same. Do you see where I am giong with this? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And you may say it sounds too much like manipulation...and I say yes, yes it is.

And it just might be enough of a jolt and shock to her to get her attention.

If you go down this path, I would make her work her @rse off just to see me one time. The three time rule works for distancers and chasers (I forget the R term for this particular dynamic).

Act like you are not that excited about her coming back to town and then make her call you three times for every time you answer, and ask three times to every time you see her. (varied somewhat).

In other word, at least change YOUR steps until she has to change hers to stay in the dance with you.

Don't get me wrong weaver, I agree, rprynne should have set up and enforced some serious boundaries long ago. I also agree with him (and apparently Harley as well) that doing so likely would have had him divorced a long time ago. I don't personally think that would have been such a bad thing. However, that isn't (or hasn't been up to now) what rprynne wants or is willing to do.

What many of you are speaking of is essentially Plan B. Having rprynne state that he is willing to work to recover the M or interact with MT only when certain stipulations are met, those stipulations being that she commit to attempting recovery based primarily around MB principles. Harley has said and rprynne believes that Plan B in this case will likely lead to divorce. Perhaps that advice and feeling has changed? I don't know. All I know is that in the past rpynne has been unwilling to really roll the dice on his marriage and risk divorce. I suspect that it may be the only thing that might actually work, but he has to be ready for it, and since he isn't, I didn't see the point in pushing him in a direction he doesn't seem to want to go.

Yes, or at the very least an unwillingness to play this stupid game any longer.

I remember a year (maybe 2?), she was keeping Ryprnne on the line by telling him she couldn't come home until after March or something, when she got her company bonus.

Now he told her he would file for divorce in six months, and she comes up with a half-baked reason to keep him from it, it would seem.

Has it been six months on the clock, yet Rprynne.

In lieu of a Plan B, I would follow the plan I laid out in my last post Tyk. Did you see it?

Operating out of fear of divorce is not a way to save a marriage when dealing with someone like R's WW. IMO

Yeah, I know. Just trying to brain storm with you.

yes, I did. I think it has merit.

I will wait for the man himself to respond to our thoughts though!

Which is really why I'm not trying to drag her up the mountain. She brought up moving home. She brought up MC. I had just assumed that she would stall and I would end up filing for a D. She still may, and I still might.

This is a hard situation for me.


I know. Usually when I try and speak positively of my WW on these boards I get bashed, but here goes. Its never been about me or her M being last. Its just that its not tied for first. There is much that she has changed and been better about. But it is always limited in scope. Its always on the edges and not the big items. The big items put her at risk and she isn't going to do that.


Wow, read the whole thing? Must be a slow day. Its not that it doesn't bother me, its a matter of relativity. Our M was very dysfunctional for a long time. The current dysfunction is really not a lot more than it ever was.


Yes, this is basically my point. A fairly simple decision true. Three choices of response from me. Accept, reject or counter. Countering equals reject, so that limits it to two choices. Reject has a 100% certainty I'll be filing for a D. Accept has less than 100% certainty I'll be filing for a D. While all respones may end in me filing for a D, only one leaves any room for an alternative outcome.


Kind of, but more like close proximity is better than no proximity.


Good, I can always use the help. And I agree, the "dance" needs to be changed.


Ah, the catch with that advice from SH was keep going as long as you can. I set up my own time line, cause I just don't think I'll get to a point where I can't take it.


It was a little less than a year ago. She did in fact move home. She told me she quit her job. But a few weeks after, I was up late one night and noticed her cell phone had a message on it. I asked her to play it for me and it was message from OM. By the nature of the message, I knew it had all been a big con. She had also not quit her job, but just asked for some time off.

Anyway, at that point I knew we were getting a divorce. It was hard on me. I took some time off work, went to IC, I moved out, separated all the finances and told her to do what she wants (she still doesn't believe that, thus my orginal question). After I got moved out I told her I was going to file for divorce. She asked me for six more months, I said fine, but I'm done with the whole figuring out how we can reconcile. If she wants it, she has to figure it out.

That's where I am now.

What I have done in the interim is treat our interactions on a case by case basis. No real plan to it. If she wants to talk, and I want to talk, I talk. If she wants to see me, and I want to see her, we see each other. I said it earlier in the post, but basically I just do what I want to do. And like I said, I fully expected this six months to be the same as the last and at the end of it, she would give me some reason why she needed six more months and I would say no and file for a D.

Now, she says she's been to IC and realizes all these problems, etc. and wants to move back home. I asked her a few questions and got some of the reponses I posted about the why and no MC with SH, etc. I pointed out to her that this basically sounded like the same thing we've done before and I didn't really hear anything that changed my plans because I had serious doubts that she was actually going to do it.

As far as having a plan, I'm open to ideas. I get what your saying, sort of a modified 180, and if you have further suggesstions, I'll listen. When I think about it, what I think needs to happen (aside from the obvious) is to get MT to the negotiating table. I don't really view the latest developments as progress towards this, just not a step away from it.

Deleted after closer reading of your last post.

Are you saying that you haven't been pursuing, and you haven't really been trying to talk her into coming home, or working on the marriage?

Do you think your ambivelance or lack of pursuit may be what is prompting her to want to move home and work on her intimacy issues? Was this last six months different than the previous six months in this way?

Do you think this is a distancing/pursuit dynamic? When you distance, she pursues?

Somehow I missed this part of your story, rprynne, perhaps you could put links to your threads in your signature? I did a "search all posts" but I must have thought some were responses or something.

I was thinking about your sitution. Really, I do think you need to make one demand upon her before agreeing to interact with her re: her "intimacy issues plan", and that is to demand verifiable NC with OM. There's no point in you wasting your time and energy if she's still involved with him.

I supsect that you have more power in this marriage than you believe. The fact that she keeps coming back, even the fact that she bothers with extravagent lies, all indicates that she values you (twisted, most definitely). Really, I think MT is not that much different than any other WS, she's just taken it much further than most, and you have tolerated much more than most.

If you were willing to lay it all on the line and accept the probability of divorce, I think a really dark plan B combined with filing for D might be the most effective plan.

I would set some pretty firm deadlines for any plan you choose to implement. If it comes clear that whatever you choose to do isn't working, then change.

I disagree. Negotiating is what you do when the playing fields are even. There is nothing fair or even in this situation.

She does the work of staying your wife now. You set the demands she must meet to do that.

Continue with your plan to file for divorce in the time line you have already set. I agree with Tyk about doing a dark Plan B at that time. It probably will be the only thing that will be effective in waking her up, but more than that it will give you a chance to get over her and move on with your life.

I like Tyk's idea of proof of no contact (a no contact letter approved and mailed by you) before you will agree to see her at all when she comes to town, but even if that is met I would definitely not be very available at all to her. The three to one rule, as well as doing mostly only listening when she talks. Just listen, nodding and encouraging more talk from her, while you remain practically silent. You have no idea the power of listening in fostering positive feelings in someone else. It's highly theraputic to be able to talk in a safe environment, and she will really want to keep seeing you to talk more. The three to one rule, and keeping your mouth closed while she talks and continuing with your plans to file at the end of this six months.

If she is reading here, Rprynne, I think you might want to have us delete our posts regarding any plans you plan to follow.

While I don't think I'm the biggest threat, I'm definately in withdrawal. At least, what I can say is that while I used to mostly think I'd like to try and reconcile, now most of the time I think why bother.

This really just comes from the false recoveries.


That is my plan, unless something dramatic happens.


Not my WW. Or at least not with me. There is a part of me that thinks she is afraid to talk to me. But I don't really know how to make her feel safe.


Its hard to determine what is opposite of what I've been doing, because over the years I've tried just about everything.


She posted briefly, for a while, but that was during our first false recovery. I don't know if she reads here or not. She never mentions it. I don't think there's any reason to delete posts. In an odd way, it would probably be better if she read the suggestions.


Yes. But it comes up in more subtle ways. I sort of manage my interactions by exception. Basically, she asks for things and I either accept or reject. If she mentions doing something together next summer, I don't agree to it, because I can't. I mean I'm just trying to be honest. So I can't agree to summer plans based on the way things are now. As another example, I said I have told her I don't trust her. Occassionally she gets upset about this and wants me to trust her. So I say, you know what it would take for me to trust you and you don't want to do it.

So I don't pursue or ask her to do this or that. I just refuse to do things that aren't okay with me. But one could assume that she could translate that into me pursuing her. I don't know.

The weird thing is, I don't think she even noticed the difference. Again, sort of related to my question about trust. What I do seems to be irrelevant to her perception of what I'm doing.


Possibly. I just don't think its as simple as that. She has an objective. She may not realize what it is but she has one. She wants something from me to achieve that objective, but doesn't have to have that something from me. She may not even realize that. KWIM. I'm not saying I'm a mind reader, I'm just saying this based on her actions.

I'm just curious, what do you think her objectives are? I know its useless to speculate on the motives of a WS, but what do you think?

Just to follow up on the no contact requirement: I don't think a NC letter is enough, if she'll write one, great, but she has shown that she does not value her word. What you need is to be able to verify it in whatever manner you wish. Cell phones records, all email accounts, GPS, whatever YOU need to know that you aren't competing with someone else you need to be able to access. Her comments about trusting her are laughable given the situation.

I struggle with the links. Wasn't really much more to it than that. After it happened I took a break.


I agree with this and I am going to do this. I don't think I'll ask for a NC letter. Sending a fourth just gets absurd, IMHO. But I know the drill on verifying NC.


Power may not be the correct word, but I agree. See my comment above. She wants something. Again, related to my questions about trust. It would sure be a lot simpler if she would just tell me what that is.


Well, you can call it a plan B/D. Once I initiate contact with a lawyer, it will take six weeks to be divorced. I plan on being pretty dark during that six weeks.

As I read these posts, I'm struck by the fact that this is similar to what she already did for OM. I mean she quit her job, found a new job where he lived and moved in with him. She did this causing a lot of people a lot of hurt. It was risky, but she convinced herself to do it.

IMHO, it says a lot about sacrifice vs. investment. Going in, a difference between these two is not so much related to whether it actually gives you a return, but whether you expect it to give you a return.

She viewed leaving me as an investment and she views returning as a sacrifice.

What she wants from you could be the brain chemicals, or the feelings that make you feel inspiration to act.

When you first start dating someone that you really like, you are taken outside of yourself and catapulted into actions that you normally would not do.

For instance I get terrible panic attacks driving in traffic caused by past trauma. I never drove outside of the rural area I live in for years. I met my husband who lives in a city 5 hours away, and in order to keep dating him I had to start driving outside of this three hour area I had been limited to by the panic attacks.

I was compelled by the brain chemicals, by the desire, by the FEELINGS I got from dating him to get ourside of myself and get over the panic attacks.

Your WW is waiting for FEELINGS to take her outside of herself. She is looking outward and not inward. This is why everytime she thinks you are going to divorce her she puts the brakes on it, but then once the brakes are on she doesn't have ENOUGH of the feelings she needs to actually catapult her into real action.

You can give her these feelings by following the plan I laid out, because it will become a challenge for her to see you and this will illicit the equivelent of the brain chemicals one gets in a new romance (or affair).


However, it is not sustainable unless you make the the necessary changes that REQUIRE her to put your marriage first. Then maybe it will become a way of life for her again, or maybe for the first time, I don't know.

The other way of course would be Divorce and then perhaps providence will do the rest, and she will learn the lessons she needs to learn to be in a succesful marriage.

As a side note: The way to get someone to talk to you is to shut up. Do not judge, do not offer solutions, just listen. If it's interesting, you can add an "Wow, that is interesting" "I never knew that about you" "Yes, now I think I understand more of what you have gone through", etc.

Being a buyer requires that you not accept/agree to actions from her that are a sacrifice for her.


I would not advise agreeing with her sacrificing o come back to you...I would tell her straight up tha isn't good enough for me. ell her you'll resent the first step she takes in the door and every step afer that.

Rprnne..it is TOO MUCH to ask and somewhere inside she knows this. She knows it is too much to ask to use you as her lab rat, like a cheap and disposable tool.

If you want a recovery your best odds chance lies with a very dark plan B.

You are right..she WANTS something from you...she has an agenda...now the other part of the equation for her to intigrate is learning to also ask what YOU want and negotiate rather than selfishly demand or use.

Allowing her to be denied what she wants of you..because she wans it free of cost..allows her to realise what it means to her.

If it means very little she will let go of it rather than pay...if it means more to her she will become willing to accept the cost.

See, what MT does is HOLD OUT and wait for your resolve to fail like a little girl with her fingers in her ears and her lips pursed holding her breath. She waits for YOU to allow her to have without cost. She doesn't pay, work, own, investt, try, be responsible for..and then whines...but my life is so dissatisfying!

Those of us on the outside can see the "duh" factor quite easily but to HER and probably to YOU [after all you fit together in your patterns and habits] in the moment to moment decisions and choices I would imagine it is very counterintuitive for her to dangle a crumb and for you to refuse it utterly.

Nevertheless it is THE solution for her choice to reinvest or let go...see if she can keep both choices CLOSE she can stradle that line very confortably.

You need to be walking AWAY...making it increasingly uncomfortable to hang onto not commiting to leave or to stay..she can't continue to hang onto both indefinitely if they keep geting further apart..that's just the way it is..I didn't invent physics.

Allowing her to continue to use you like this most certainly feels more COMFORTABLE to you as evidenced by your desire to rationalize doing more of the same which has only brought you destruction and heartbreak.

If you want hings to BE different you will have to be willing to be uncomfortable.

So you will have to decide which means more to you..catch 22...because you have also been looking for the answer that doesn't cost you anyhting and will I htink discover that nothing comes without a price.

I'll answer a little bit philosophically.

Her objective - probably the same as everybody else. "Spontaneously occuring risk free happiness." I think that is what she is searching for. But that doesn't exist. Maybe it should, but it doesn't.

Her objective is to have me contribute to her happiness without her doing any work or taking any risks. I think she believes I can contribute to her happiness in one of two ways. The first, is to let her go with my approval and blessings. Most likely, she believes this objective is achievable and can be done with very little work and no risk. The second, is to provide her a good M. Most likely she believes this is not achievable, but to even try would require a lot of work and involve lots of risk.

Yes, I agree. I would assume that being okay with her moving home would make this more of a possibility.


And, yes, I agree. I am considering this very much. I often think the best thing is to just say, "look, this plan of yours sounds a whole lot like you doing something because you think I want you to, not because you want to, and that isn't going to work."

Here are my concerns.

First, if I say that to MT, she will flat refuse that is the case. She will say up and down, "no, I'm doing this because I want to". Now, if I refuse to accept that, aren't I crossing into the whole DJ territory. If I push the issue further, then she will say I'm not coming home because you don't want me to. I don't see how I get her to actually act on her own if I say anything at all.

The second, is if this is a case of getting her to "feel" like doing something, aren't my odds better with more interaction.

BTW - I really appreciate the advice. You all are making some good points

Well, YOU know it isn't possible without her being willing to take the risk.

I get the sense that the machine (you) is faltering. You admit that your feelings about reconciliation are becoming more ambivalent, that you are withdrawing. I think this is what Harley is talking about regarding the transition from Plan A to Plan B, you have to make that transition while there is still enough love for her within you to give recovery a chance should Plan B work.

Going dark will force her to make a decision, take the risk, or not. If she chooses to, you'll still have enough gas in the tank to give it a shot. If she doesn't, well, it sounds to me like you're running out of gas and you'll soon enough just file for divorce anyhow.

So really then, logically, what are the choices? Continue the same, take crumbs and let her whittle away all the love you have left for her at which point she pretty much gets the "easy" divorce because you just don't care anymore. Or do something radically different than what you've ever done, go completely dark, and force her to make the decision you've allowed her to avoid making for so long.

No, as soon as she get's you into her "he's not leaving" comfort zone her brain chemicals ease up.

You increase them by being MORE unreachable..by her having to come further and do more to get to you.

You must understand tha you aren't going to win M over with flowers and considerae household chores.

She. Has. Intimacy. Issues.

The more intimacy she has the less desire she has.

Now here is the important thing for you to recognise.

Right now she has enough desire for the marriage to come towards it but not invest..as former weaver says she's waiting to FEEL like doing it naturally..she's hoping for that hit of crack to compell her to accept tha risk and sacrifice.

If she gains intimacy with you right now she will not have enough desire to pursue her intimacy issues.

You understand what I am saying to you?

What you are perceiving as a step toward recovery is instead almost certain to stifle any possibility of it...that's why I am SO adamant in advising you to move AWAY in response to her reluctant sacrificing "I guess I'll try it but not really" step towards you.

Move OUT of her grasp..it is THIS which stimulates that brain chemical reaction..those FEELINGS she is looking for.

Now we know this isn't sustainable..but here's how you use it to your benefit.

Allow her to marinate in her chemical bath and BECOME the person she is willing to risk for.

By disallowing her to use you in this fashion you GAIN appeal [even if you can't see it..even if she looks sulking and mad..I promise promise that being something she can't have free of cost gives you value].

Then comes the clincher..she either will or will not be willing to deal with her issues.

If not it is GOOD that are are already removed and she can go chase her bliss and her brain chemicals in serial affair after serial affair.

If she IS willing after accepting that in order to obtain your cooperation she must then you have the first REAL starting point to potential recovery..just REMEMBER that with a person like MT..distance = pursuit and pursuit = withdrawl.

You can use this to help yourself if you will overocme your fear and your OWN habit to setle for crumbs.

PS Tyk is correct that she is wearing you down to give her tha costless divorce with your approval and blessing [or at least apathy which is close enough for her to shirk responsibility].

Aren't you people supposed to form a consensus? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Well, it wasn't yesterday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I get what you are saying. I understand the big picture you are painting. I'm not sure MT is wired that way, but maybe you're right. I just have serious doubts that the path your describing is the best one.

You are making a good arguement. You are talking about raising my value in her eyes to make it worth the cost. But for raising my value by raising the cost to work, the former has to grow faster than the latter. I just don't know if that's possible since MT seems to be more motivated by avoiding costs rather than getting value.

I'm just not so sure that it doesn't work better in the short term to lower her costs, even if that means a decrease in my value. Which based on how I understand what you're saying, is essentially what happens if I'm okay with her moving home.

Does that make sense?

I understand what you are saying and frankly I think it's the crux of plan A..which doesn't work with M because if she can have it she doesn't want it and if she has to work for it she doesn't want it..lol.

What you described above which I quoted is basically a plan doomed to failure structurally. In which case what you should do is STILL pursue the path I described and let her choose to go if she's unwilling to stay and work.

That's not approval or condonement just acceptance of reality...you can't MAKE the free lunch she is hoping for a reality...it doesn't exist outside of infatuation stage nonintimate romance.

And THAT is the only thing she'd be motivated to work for.

WEll..do the math..she will either have to change what she wants or go pursue her lust..no other options..you DEvaluing yourself will not help in EITHER case.

What happens if you are OK with her moving home means that she is free to use you until she finds a better option and lacking that infatuation she WILL be looking for a better option.

We have formed a consensus. We are all basically saying the same thing.

MT is not adverse to paying a high cost if the prize is what she wants. She paid a very high cost to go to OM, but because it was such a cost, she paid it.

When I go to a store and everything is really cheap, I don't normally want any of it. I'll go to an expensive store, site an item that is high dollar and of high value and go home and figure out how I am going to get it. It may even be the same as the item at the discount store, but because it was so affordable to me, I didn't want it.



Lowering the price of admission is the absolute WORST mistake you could make right now.

She is not unique to any other commitment phobic, to any other wayward, or to any other distancer/pursuer...

She will fight for what she wants, provided it is invoking the right kinds of feelings in her.

She is operating by feelings. If you don't recognize that and try to handle this with your operation of logic, it will not illicit the feelings she needs to have in order to want to fight for your marriage.

She has to be the one to fight now. And if you don't allow her to struggle to win you back, then you are not changing your dance steps.

Yes! JJ...

Especially this

Thanks everyone for the advice. I've basically decided that I am going to have to make some additional requirements before agreeing to my WW moving home, which will probably mean she won't be doing it.

Aside from all the other good reasons, for me, it just comes down to my opinion that working on marital recovery is not a way to address her intimacy issues. She needs to fix that first. Until she does, we'd just be spinning our wheels.

Not really sure yet how I'm going to go about doing this, so any tips are greatly appreciated.

The other thing I have decided is to drop my demand that she make an attempt at marital recovery in order for us to part as friends. As I've thought more about this, I've realized that what I want, in order for us to part as friends is for her to just "own" what she did. While that would certainly be a part of marital recovery, she can do that without attempting marital recovery. I guess I just can't forgive someone if they won't acknowledge what they did.

Do you have any intention of even being her friend if you get divorced? Why? I mean, the tolerance of poor behavior amongst friends is even less than that tolerated between spouses, simply because there's less at stake. Would you associate with any person other than MT that had put you through this pain? I suspect the whole "friends" thing on her part is really just the product of a wayward mindset, its allowed her to NOT file for divorce herself.

Working on her intimacy issues within the framework of working toward marital recovery makes sense, outside of attempting to work on the marriage it doesn't make sense for you to involve yourself further in her intimacy issues, which you are pretty well schooled in by now, so yes I agree.

I would work on preparing a Plan B letter for her, expressing that you still hope to recover the marriage and what you need from her in order to be willing to attempt it. So, what would you need? Verifiable no contact, moving home, IC and MC? A committment to honesty? Really, the first two is probably what's absolutely essential in order for you to be willing to put out any more effort. Until she agrees to meet your needs, there's not much to talk about as you have determined that without those basic things there is no chance of success.

I really don't know either way. What I do know, is that I wouldn't have anything to do with her if it ended like it is now. What I mean is, its not that my WW is what I will call a classic "unrepentent" WS. She says it was her choice, she agrees the A was wrong, she agrees she shouldn't have done it, etc. But, she more less also says that the A didn't matter. Didn't affect the way she treated me, didn't affect whether she wanted a divorce, didn't take any effort on her part, etc. She more less acts like both are lives would be exactly the same as they are now if she had not had an A. That's just not true. Maybe for her, but not for me. I don't know why this bothers me, but it does. Its like someone stabbing you in the chest, and saying yeah I stabbed you, but I don't see why it would hurt.


Possibly, but you would have to say more. I don't really follow you here. The simplest way I can describe what I think she means by the "friends" thing is that she doesn't want me to hate her and doesn't want their to be no contact between us ever again.


I doubt I'll do it in a letter, and I don't plan on doing a plan B. All the things you listed would be requirements. However, I would rank the committment to honesty as the most important.

What do you plan on doing?

What I mean about the friends thing is that she seems to be somehow using it as a barrier to divorce. "I would get a divorce if I knew we would be friends", and you have denied her this, rightfully so imo as I wouldn't agree to be friends with her either. It would be interesting to hear what she thinks the key components of friendship are.

See, she's not treating you in any way that should make you want to be her friend, even now. Friendship carries with it some responsibilities and obligations too. How many friends do you have that lie to you about important things? How many friends does SHE have that she lies to all the time, or that lie to her?

You two can't be friends because there's nothing friendly about the way she treats you. If she treated you as a friend, there might be more hope for the marriage.

And ya, the stuff about the A not impacting the marriage, amazing to imagine the world she inhabits isn't it?

Rprynne, without knowing her or ever talking to her, everything you have just described is the epitamy of selfishness.

She is not able to even to put herself in your shoes long enough to imagine the pain she has caused.

And to expect you to sit there waiting for her is the most unloving thing I can think of. She doesn't even love you enough to want you to move on and find a woman who will live with you and love you.

She is most definitely a classic wayward mentality.

I'm sorry, I know it upsets you to have people here speak ill of her, but my gosh. Can't you see how wrong what she is doing is?

I don't know how to make someone care enough about another that they would at the very least, let them go.

IF I were you I'd tell her that she is free to live where ever she wants, but you are not even close to being interested.

And then let her do ALL the work, make all the offers and do some serious chasing.


You don't really even need to tell her what is needed to accept her back. She was on MB long enough and you have been through this with her before.

She is not a helpless child.

She knows the drill. She knows the drill. Believe me, she knows the drill. Give her a few months to think about it and I bet she comes up with exactly what you need to consider another recovery attempt.

You said she needed something from you, but you didn't know what, that even she probably didn't know what.

We said it was the chemical high from the challange of winning you back...

And what if, what if Rprynne, what she needs from you is to expect more from her?

Men tend to marry and stay with women who expect them to be good men.

Maybe she needs you to expect more from her.

Telling her I don't think its a good idea for her to move home. That while I can't stop her, its not what I want. Where I go from there, I'll have to figure out.


Yes you are correct. The part I was confused about was the friends thing being part of the wayward mindset. I don't think I've seen a lot on that before.


Consciously, I think she gets the classic components. Sub-conciously, its very clouded with a bunch of conflict avoidance, passive agressive, stuff. I've posted about this earlier in this thread.


I posted about this earlier, too. She lies all the time to all her friends and family. It is about saying what they want to hear. I don't know why, but she does not feel she has the right to say what she wants, so she says what people want to hear.


Yes, I see what she is doing is wrong. I feel great sadness for her. She is not an evil person. She has lost her way. I just want her to find her way and be happy. I'm not a martyr (sp?) nor trying to be a white knight. I'll probably get a 2x4, but I have been through harder things. I just feel like keeping up the effort a little longer.

Is her not moving home what you want?

Or do you want her to move home and put effort into the marriage?

Why tell her something misleading or allow her to misinterpret? Why NOT tell her what you really want?

If you tell her you don't want her to come home, then she won't but she'll think its because you've quit. Then its your fault.

If you tell her what you really want, then at least she's making her own decision based on the truth and you can't feel bad about that.

No, I want her to move home. But I want her to move home because she wants to work on the M. 6 months of a true effort, with no secret contact with OM, and no BS about her job, and most of all, openess and honesty.

I just don't think she can do that, at least based on what she's said. From my own experience, I think you need 4 things to even attempt recovery. 1) No contact with OP. 2) No drug or alcohol addiction. 3) No unaddressed personality disorders. 4) A desire to try and reconcile.

Drugs or alcohol are not a problem.

I'm only about 75% sure of no contact.

Personality disorders may sound harsh, but she has to at least be to a point where she can ask for what she wants and be able to honor commitments, and I don't think she's there yet.

On the last point, this doesn't sound like a desire to try and reconcile and sounds like a desire to proove to me that it won't work out.

All that said, I have pretty checkered past in terms of telling her what I want. I used to be very critical of things. So it was not enough if she did something for me, it had to be done the proper way. I've since addressed my problem in this regard. But, I'm a little gun shy in this situation. I don't really want to say its okay for you to come home if its done in the proper way.

Additionally, there is the little problem of her tendency to tell me what she thinks I want to hear. Try as I might, I can't tell the difference when she says things, all I can do is wait and see her actions. So, if I say here's all the things I want, she may say "well I can't do that". She also may say "sure no problem", but be totally BS'ing me. If she does the latter, I think it would be a DJ to say, I think your BS'ing me.

So I don't have a plan other than just to be honest. While I would like her to come home, I'm not sure she's ready. Where it goes from there, I don't know.

All you can do is be honest and act in good faith rprynne.

You are also in the habit of predicated your behavior on your assumptions of her response.

****** it man. Why not just flat out tell her, "I want you to come be my wife again, I want a chance to be your husband again. If you don't want to do that, that's fine, but if you don't, I'm tired of messing with it and don't feel like working with you towards any other goal."

And if she shows up, great. If not, well, there's your answer.

Simple, overly simple I know, and I know she doesn't work that way and it wouldn't work and until you find the best way to make it work its best not to poke the hornets nest and so on.

Tell her what you want, if she wants it too, then tell her what you need to make it happen. If she won't do it, then it won't work, 'nuff said.

I'm sorry man, I just hate to see you putting yourself through this. I don't have a clue why it frustrates ME, but it does!

Well, yeah. But this is what I'm really trying to quit doing.


Essentially what I'm planning on doing. Like I said, the whole her brining up wanting to move back was a curveball.


I do tend to frustrate people here. No need to apologize. I always appreciate the feedback.

This is a respect issue, self-respect, respect for others. We try to be as honest as we can with others because we value the truth, both for them and because we view ourselves as honest people. And on a deeper level, because untruths serve no purpose in advancement.

Does she have some kind of personality disorder other than what you stated above?

Let her do all the work of repairing this marriage and gain self-repect. Let her do the necessary work of winning back your trust and willingness enough to attempt to be with her again.

I don't know Rprynne, you talk about her like she is not able to figure it out. I don't think she is evil by any stretch, but self-centered to be sure, and very selfish. This could stem from immaturity, and that may stem from having you try to take care of her and accepting that she is incapable, even to the point of thinking she can't do what she needs to do...or even figure out on her own after you have been through it so many times.

She possibly is very lost and it is sad, so give her a chance to find her way. Tough love.

"WW, I would love for you to come home so we can remain married, but you have done nothing to make me feel like it is safe for me to try even one more time. I am not willing to put off the divorce so you can work on your intimacy issues at possibly my expense. I'm sorry"

That's all you need to say. Let her come to you and start asking questions after that.

It's good that you worked on your problem of having to have everything done your way. That would be very destructive.

Step back even more now, and see how she figures this out on her own. She'll gain self-respect if she has to work to fix what she has broken.

You ignored most of my previous post, so I assume you do not agree with it, and that's okay. I'm still going to keep throwing my 2 cents in, because, well I don't know why. Mouthy, I guess.






Why, after 3 1/2 attempted recoveries does she not know what it would take for you to want to reconcile with her?

On the contrary, I actually agreed with most of it. I agree - she knows what has to be done.


Well, that's a tough question. First, I'd swear she had been abused at some point in her life. She denies that she was, when I've asked. I was never physically abusive, but probably emotionally abusive at times. I don't think I can give an unbiased opinion on that, but FWIW, I consider my past behavior to be mostly a lot of DJ's.

As far as disorders, what I would say is that they are over developed defense mechanisms. Too passive agressive, too much conflict avoidance, too much escapism, etc. Low self esteem. She was this way all along, but it got progressively worse over the years, then really worse after we lost the baby, then worse more during the A.

This obviously didn't help things in terms of my behavior, cause I just kept thrashing around trying to figure out what the heck is going on.

Well it's easy to feel sorry for her, given what you have just said, but she has got to take responsibility for fixing herself, as you are also saying.

I just have some hope that if you are able to allow her to do that, she will do just that. Losing you may be the leverage she needs to do it.

It's a gamble and I know it is very scary. We get that you love her and want to protect her and see her happy.

I just don't see how you have any other choice because you cannot continue your life this way, or at least I don't think you want to, and I can't see how it is helping her at all.

If she had even said she was willing to do whatever it takes, to work with the Harleys...anything.

Rprynne,
Nothing helpful to add. Just want you to know that I'm reading... and hoping....
--SC

P.S. When will you give her your response? Will you wait for her to bring it up again? I, like you, am somewhat skeptical that she will even follow through.

I'm able. Will just have to see what happens.


Thanks SC.

Don't know. I've got my birthday, anniversary, then Christmas all coming in the next few weeks. I expect she'll come into town for one of those and we can talk then.

Well, I had my 16th wedding anniversary on Friday. WW and I talked, and I guess I'm going to give this moving back in together thing a try. Can't help but feel a little like Charlie Brown with Lucy holding the football and me going to kick it. But, overall I just got the feeling she means it this time.

If recovery is our goal, what would be better? Her moving into my apartment or her moving into the house?

Well in the same post, you said that you think she really means it this time, and that you feel like Luci's Charlie Brown. LOL

I think if you are both serious about recovery, you should live together.

I noticed something this weekend about my husband. I can be pretty skiddish about giving up my independence, about getting hurt again... but my husband won't have anything to do with my fears. I mentioned something about me staying up here until my house sells, and rescinding my resignation at work (I gave a three months ntice) until his business down south gets going...

he said "no way" absolutely not. We are living together and that is final. As a woman, and kind of a scarred one, it made me feel confident about our marriage, and about him. Hard to explain, but I think it is important for you to lead.

So with that said, which place is the more cozy? Which one is more conducive to creating new memories and leaving behind the hurtful ones?

You need to be strong in this recovery Rprynne, and partly because of your WW being the way she is. Intimacy issues and all. Don't let her pull her stuff this time.

Yeah. Charlie always felt Lucy "really meant it this time" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The reason why I say overall, is just because I said to her I did not think her moving home was a good idea, and she actually fought for it. I said to her, I did not want to do this just so three months from now we can say we tried. Finally, I said to her it isn't going to work out if she doesn't want it to. She said she wants our M to work. Said she would do whatever it takes to make me feel safe. Said she would go to MC.

So I guess I'm cautiously optimistic.


I agree, I was just trying to get input on whether folks think it would be better to go slow and have her stay at the house for a while and whether I should care one way or the other.

It would be more cozy at my apartment. Plus its downtown, so there is lots more to do.

I hear what you are saying about leading, I just don't know if I'm up for that. I'll have to see.

According to Harley's rules of a great marriage, living together, as well as doing lots of things together(recreational companionship, sharing/creating memories) is right up there at the top.

Starting slowly, while living separately, somehow just doesn't seem like a good idea for recovery to me.

Hopefully you'll get some more perspectives.

That is good to hear rprynne! I hope she really means it and is committed to trying. Did she agree to NC with OM? How did the conversations with her go?

I don't know that it matters where you live, but I think living together gives you the best chance. Live wherever the two of you mutually agree on, it would be a good time to try out the POJA eh?

Keep us posted, I'll be here rootin for ya!

Well, she has always agreed to NC with OM. I don't think I'm going to ask for another NC letter, but I imagine if I did, she would agree to it.

The conversation went fairly well. I think she was a little surprised by it.

It's encouraging, but I'm still cautious. I don't really know what to do about feeling cautious. Part of me says its the smart thing to do, but part of me says if I'm too cautious it may cause problems.

Be true to yourself. If you feel cautious, its for good reason. If she isn't willing to accomodate your uneasiness, if she can't deal with your pain (presented in a reasonable and unthreatening way), then she is not serious about "doing whatever it takes". She has done much damage, and she is responsible for helping to repair it. If she won't take that responsibility, then it isn't real.

If you do not allow her to fight, then you will build resentment, and you will never recover, instead allowing a wound to fester within yourself, always doubting, always wondering if she would really be there if she knew the "real" you.

There's just no reason to proceed if she can't handle it. I understand not wanting to drive her off with a rage of powerful negative emotions, but those are real, and she is going to have to be able to face reality. Perhaps not RIGHT NOW, but sometime.

There is a medium ground, and you will find it. Just don't deny yourself, or her, the opportunity to prove herself. Doing so at this point would be the height of foolishness.

I agree, Tyk.

Rprynne,

Why don't you call Steve Harley? I realise your WW doesn't want to council with him, but I strongly feel that you should at least call for one or two sessions with him. He will have a good idea of how you should proceed. I am sure he has seen many situations where there has been several false recoveries, and with spouses who have intimacy, commitment issues. Also where there has been grief such as what you and your wife dealt with in losing your baby.

Please consider it.

I think that's a very good idea at this point too rprynne.

Get a good solid plan together and see what happens!

JJ and Tyk,

Thanks for the advice.


Yeah, I know. I'm just trying to find my footing.


I might.

Hows it going rprynne? (just a Monday morning update request!)

Going okay. I was out of town for the holidays, so I haven't kept up with the board.

WW still planning on moving home in the next week or so, but.....

Just found out this morning that while I was away on vacation, my heating went out, my pipes froze and burst and as my real estate agent put it, my house is basically totaled.

Had a follow up to your thread I will post shortly.

For an update. My WW still plans on moving home. She says it will be next week, but that may slip a week due to my house being destroyed. I have pressed her about this several times, and she seems sincere. Most recently saying that she realizes she loves me very much and can't see herself ever being happy if we don't try everything possible to work it out.

So, with the house destroyed I think she is going to have to move into my apartment. As I've had some time to think about it, I think that it would be better if we were in the same place.

I'm hoping some people can offer some advice on a problem I have been dealing with. I don't think I can go all in on this recovery attempt. I don't want to sound too touchy feely, but I'm pretty walled off right now, and it feels fairly safe and secure. I don't think I want to let those walls down. So my question is; do I have to for recovery to be successful?

I think given your story that you would be a fool to feel otherwise. I think that you owe it to yourself to be open to the possibility of your W being sincere in her intentions. I also think you owe it to yourself to recognize the past and the patterns she has followed and be somewhat cautious in your expectations.

Hope for the best, be prepared for the worst. Either way, I think you're in for a positive change in your life.

So Rprynne...

Your house is trashed, forcing MT to move into your cozy little apartment eh? Hmmmm. A little divine intervention perhaps? (Not to make light of the situation. I can't imagine what a headache it must be.)

I agree with Tyk. Baby steps.

--SC

Thanks for the encouragement.

The destruction is pretty complete. Out of the 15 rooms in my house I would say that 13 of them will have to be completely gutted and rebuilt. All from one pipe fitting busting in the upstairs bathroom.

Divine intervention? I don't know about that. I think the closeness when she moves back may be a benefit. And it does eliminate a need for a conversation on the topic, and I can certainly use less conversations.

I think my reaction to the whole thing, had more of an impact on my WW, than I would have thought. I think my WW had all these negative ideas about what I would think or do, that would have matched with the way I was 3 years ago. But none of them happened. Its one of the few times I think my WW actually looked at who I am, rather than who she has made me out to be.

I think if my WW would quit avoiding me all the time, she might find out she actually likes me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Counting down to WW's return. Supposed to be 1/29. The plane tickets have been purchased and her car is scheduled to be shipped back. WW brought up that we should start looking for a MC and offered to do "all the things" she needs to do to regain my trust.

My skepticism about her actually returning is eroding, which is risky and painful, and my thoughts are turning to what the heck do we do now, which is also painful.

Has anyone else been separated for so long and then recovered? Anything different you should do?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Hi rprynne! Good to "see" ya!

I think you should develop a plan, together. You need to not be afraid to ask for EXACTLY what you need right off the bat. Its more difficult to come back later and say "oh, ya, I'm kinda uncomfortable with not being able to see your credit card statements" two months later, and it sounds like she is ready to agree to some concessions right now, so you should take advantage of that.

That being said, you need to make it a plan that suits both of you. Look at it as an implementation of the Policy of Joint Agreement and a chance to practice your new negotiation skills!

Hopefully you'll get some better (or at least more thorough) advice from others!

I'm glad to hear that your marriage is getting another chance rprynne! I hope you two both make the most of it!

Good to "see" you. Haven't seen any updates on your sitch. Things going okay?


Maybe so. Not really sure what I would include in a plan.

I guess I feel this site and its principles encompass a pretty good plan. If you're asking me to come up with something original its going to be a while!

I've been considering posting an update, things have been pretty smooth here lately, some minor dips in the rollercoaster but not nearly as many and definitely less severe. Me not posting about myself is a GOOD thing, as it means things are relatively peaceful!

You should definitely try to find a therapist that is familiar with MB concepts. There is a new "Local Help" feature up top of the page, still nothing there in my area, but maybe you'll get lucky and have your leg work done for you?

Nah, that's not neccessary. What I mean is I did MC with the Harley's for a while and have a pretty good idea of how they work and what they would tell me to do. But I've already been basically doing what they recomend. So I guess my anxiety is more around having this big change, but there really not seeming to be anything different I should be doing.

Anyway, glad to hear things are more peaceful for you.

just wanted to say Hi and that I'm praying for you guys rprynne.

my 2cents on a plan. have it include FUN!!! what do you two like to do together that is just fun? decide together and then make sure you do it every week.

for DH and me it was raquetball which we did religious every week even when we didn't feel like it. it made a big difference to me, even on days when things between us were tough, especially on those days. no matter what every friday at 1:30 we met at the courts.

these days, we no longer go ever friday but we try to fit in a time at least once a month. our fun time is no longer scheduled. mostly now it is sitting down together and playing a game or two of backgammon. it's very meaningful to me.

I think you are WISE to keep those walls up until she demonstrates she is SINCERE about recovery. You have no evidence of that at this point. Talk is CHEAP with a wayward.

Let her do all the work right now and give her an opportunity to PROVE to you she is sincere and has a PLAN. WHAT IS HER PLAN? You have no reason to believe it will be different this time.

This is likely to be False Recovery #14, so please be careful, rprynne.

Hi. And thanks.


Agree.


Not quite 14, but point taken.


Overall, I think your right. I don't think she has a plan. But that leads back to my original question. What do I do in the meantime? Do I go along with whatever "plan" she develops or do I get involved with it? I mean, I don't feel all that optimistic about things. Do I try to be optimistic, do I act optimistic. I don't feel all that close to her. Do I act like I do?

We advise WS to "fake it till you make it" all the time. I'm just asking if that is something I need to or should do.