Is her not moving home what you want?

Or do you want her to move home and put effort into the marriage?

Why tell her something misleading or allow her to misinterpret? Why NOT tell her what you really want?

If you tell her you don't want her to come home, then she won't but she'll think its because you've quit. Then its your fault.

If you tell her what you really want, then at least she's making her own decision based on the truth and you can't feel bad about that.

No, I want her to move home. But I want her to move home because she wants to work on the M. 6 months of a true effort, with no secret contact with OM, and no BS about her job, and most of all, openess and honesty.

I just don't think she can do that, at least based on what she's said. From my own experience, I think you need 4 things to even attempt recovery. 1) No contact with OP. 2) No drug or alcohol addiction. 3) No unaddressed personality disorders. 4) A desire to try and reconcile.

Drugs or alcohol are not a problem.

I'm only about 75% sure of no contact.

Personality disorders may sound harsh, but she has to at least be to a point where she can ask for what she wants and be able to honor commitments, and I don't think she's there yet.

On the last point, this doesn't sound like a desire to try and reconcile and sounds like a desire to proove to me that it won't work out.

All that said, I have pretty checkered past in terms of telling her what I want. I used to be very critical of things. So it was not enough if she did something for me, it had to be done the proper way. I've since addressed my problem in this regard. But, I'm a little gun shy in this situation. I don't really want to say its okay for you to come home if its done in the proper way.

Additionally, there is the little problem of her tendency to tell me what she thinks I want to hear. Try as I might, I can't tell the difference when she says things, all I can do is wait and see her actions. So, if I say here's all the things I want, she may say "well I can't do that". She also may say "sure no problem", but be totally BS'ing me. If she does the latter, I think it would be a DJ to say, I think your BS'ing me.

So I don't have a plan other than just to be honest. While I would like her to come home, I'm not sure she's ready. Where it goes from there, I don't know.

All you can do is be honest and act in good faith rprynne.

You are also in the habit of predicated your behavior on your assumptions of her response.

****** it man. Why not just flat out tell her, "I want you to come be my wife again, I want a chance to be your husband again. If you don't want to do that, that's fine, but if you don't, I'm tired of messing with it and don't feel like working with you towards any other goal."

And if she shows up, great. If not, well, there's your answer.

Simple, overly simple I know, and I know she doesn't work that way and it wouldn't work and until you find the best way to make it work its best not to poke the hornets nest and so on.

Tell her what you want, if she wants it too, then tell her what you need to make it happen. If she won't do it, then it won't work, 'nuff said.

I'm sorry man, I just hate to see you putting yourself through this. I don't have a clue why it frustrates ME, but it does!

Well, yeah. But this is what I'm really trying to quit doing.


Essentially what I'm planning on doing. Like I said, the whole her brining up wanting to move back was a curveball.


I do tend to frustrate people here. No need to apologize. I always appreciate the feedback.

This is a respect issue, self-respect, respect for others. We try to be as honest as we can with others because we value the truth, both for them and because we view ourselves as honest people. And on a deeper level, because untruths serve no purpose in advancement.

Does she have some kind of personality disorder other than what you stated above?

Let her do all the work of repairing this marriage and gain self-repect. Let her do the necessary work of winning back your trust and willingness enough to attempt to be with her again.

I don't know Rprynne, you talk about her like she is not able to figure it out. I don't think she is evil by any stretch, but self-centered to be sure, and very selfish. This could stem from immaturity, and that may stem from having you try to take care of her and accepting that she is incapable, even to the point of thinking she can't do what she needs to do...or even figure out on her own after you have been through it so many times.

She possibly is very lost and it is sad, so give her a chance to find her way. Tough love.

"WW, I would love for you to come home so we can remain married, but you have done nothing to make me feel like it is safe for me to try even one more time. I am not willing to put off the divorce so you can work on your intimacy issues at possibly my expense. I'm sorry"

That's all you need to say. Let her come to you and start asking questions after that.

It's good that you worked on your problem of having to have everything done your way. That would be very destructive.

Step back even more now, and see how she figures this out on her own. She'll gain self-respect if she has to work to fix what she has broken.

You ignored most of my previous post, so I assume you do not agree with it, and that's okay. I'm still going to keep throwing my 2 cents in, because, well I don't know why. Mouthy, I guess.






Why, after 3 1/2 attempted recoveries does she not know what it would take for you to want to reconcile with her?

On the contrary, I actually agreed with most of it. I agree - she knows what has to be done.


Well, that's a tough question. First, I'd swear she had been abused at some point in her life. She denies that she was, when I've asked. I was never physically abusive, but probably emotionally abusive at times. I don't think I can give an unbiased opinion on that, but FWIW, I consider my past behavior to be mostly a lot of DJ's.

As far as disorders, what I would say is that they are over developed defense mechanisms. Too passive agressive, too much conflict avoidance, too much escapism, etc. Low self esteem. She was this way all along, but it got progressively worse over the years, then really worse after we lost the baby, then worse more during the A.

This obviously didn't help things in terms of my behavior, cause I just kept thrashing around trying to figure out what the heck is going on.

Well it's easy to feel sorry for her, given what you have just said, but she has got to take responsibility for fixing herself, as you are also saying.

I just have some hope that if you are able to allow her to do that, she will do just that. Losing you may be the leverage she needs to do it.

It's a gamble and I know it is very scary. We get that you love her and want to protect her and see her happy.

I just don't see how you have any other choice because you cannot continue your life this way, or at least I don't think you want to, and I can't see how it is helping her at all.

If she had even said she was willing to do whatever it takes, to work with the Harleys...anything.

Rprynne,
Nothing helpful to add. Just want you to know that I'm reading... and hoping....
--SC

P.S. When will you give her your response? Will you wait for her to bring it up again? I, like you, am somewhat skeptical that she will even follow through.

I'm able. Will just have to see what happens.


Thanks SC.

Don't know. I've got my birthday, anniversary, then Christmas all coming in the next few weeks. I expect she'll come into town for one of those and we can talk then.

Well, I had my 16th wedding anniversary on Friday. WW and I talked, and I guess I'm going to give this moving back in together thing a try. Can't help but feel a little like Charlie Brown with Lucy holding the football and me going to kick it. But, overall I just got the feeling she means it this time.

If recovery is our goal, what would be better? Her moving into my apartment or her moving into the house?

Well in the same post, you said that you think she really means it this time, and that you feel like Luci's Charlie Brown. LOL

I think if you are both serious about recovery, you should live together.

I noticed something this weekend about my husband. I can be pretty skiddish about giving up my independence, about getting hurt again... but my husband won't have anything to do with my fears. I mentioned something about me staying up here until my house sells, and rescinding my resignation at work (I gave a three months ntice) until his business down south gets going...

he said "no way" absolutely not. We are living together and that is final. As a woman, and kind of a scarred one, it made me feel confident about our marriage, and about him. Hard to explain, but I think it is important for you to lead.

So with that said, which place is the more cozy? Which one is more conducive to creating new memories and leaving behind the hurtful ones?

You need to be strong in this recovery Rprynne, and partly because of your WW being the way she is. Intimacy issues and all. Don't let her pull her stuff this time.

Yeah. Charlie always felt Lucy "really meant it this time" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The reason why I say overall, is just because I said to her I did not think her moving home was a good idea, and she actually fought for it. I said to her, I did not want to do this just so three months from now we can say we tried. Finally, I said to her it isn't going to work out if she doesn't want it to. She said she wants our M to work. Said she would do whatever it takes to make me feel safe. Said she would go to MC.

So I guess I'm cautiously optimistic.


I agree, I was just trying to get input on whether folks think it would be better to go slow and have her stay at the house for a while and whether I should care one way or the other.

It would be more cozy at my apartment. Plus its downtown, so there is lots more to do.

I hear what you are saying about leading, I just don't know if I'm up for that. I'll have to see.

According to Harley's rules of a great marriage, living together, as well as doing lots of things together(recreational companionship, sharing/creating memories) is right up there at the top.

Starting slowly, while living separately, somehow just doesn't seem like a good idea for recovery to me.

Hopefully you'll get some more perspectives.

That is good to hear rprynne! I hope she really means it and is committed to trying. Did she agree to NC with OM? How did the conversations with her go?

I don't know that it matters where you live, but I think living together gives you the best chance. Live wherever the two of you mutually agree on, it would be a good time to try out the POJA eh?

Keep us posted, I'll be here rootin for ya!

Well, she has always agreed to NC with OM. I don't think I'm going to ask for another NC letter, but I imagine if I did, she would agree to it.

The conversation went fairly well. I think she was a little surprised by it.

It's encouraging, but I'm still cautious. I don't really know what to do about feeling cautious. Part of me says its the smart thing to do, but part of me says if I'm too cautious it may cause problems.

Be true to yourself. If you feel cautious, its for good reason. If she isn't willing to accomodate your uneasiness, if she can't deal with your pain (presented in a reasonable and unthreatening way), then she is not serious about "doing whatever it takes". She has done much damage, and she is responsible for helping to repair it. If she won't take that responsibility, then it isn't real.

If you do not allow her to fight, then you will build resentment, and you will never recover, instead allowing a wound to fester within yourself, always doubting, always wondering if she would really be there if she knew the "real" you.

There's just no reason to proceed if she can't handle it. I understand not wanting to drive her off with a rage of powerful negative emotions, but those are real, and she is going to have to be able to face reality. Perhaps not RIGHT NOW, but sometime.

There is a medium ground, and you will find it. Just don't deny yourself, or her, the opportunity to prove herself. Doing so at this point would be the height of foolishness.

I agree, Tyk.

Rprynne,

Why don't you call Steve Harley? I realise your WW doesn't want to council with him, but I strongly feel that you should at least call for one or two sessions with him. He will have a good idea of how you should proceed. I am sure he has seen many situations where there has been several false recoveries, and with spouses who have intimacy, commitment issues. Also where there has been grief such as what you and your wife dealt with in losing your baby.

Please consider it.

I think that's a very good idea at this point too rprynne.

Get a good solid plan together and see what happens!

JJ and Tyk,

Thanks for the advice.


Yeah, I know. I'm just trying to find my footing.


I might.

Hows it going rprynne? (just a Monday morning update request!)