I have a lot to say about this subject, but unfortunately not much time in which to do it.

I'm at work, and leaving to go out of town shortly, but I would like to address quite a lot of things when I come back.

If you really want to understand the WW mindset, you need to stop assuming that you know what its all about. Those of you that say its deceitful, or selfish, or rebelling, or projection -- you just don't get it.

I'll start with this:
It took a LONG time for my marriage to deteriorate. Years. Years of unmet needs, neglect and selfish independent behavior on the part of my BH. Years.

But then SUDDENLY...yeah SUDDENLY he was willing to change all of that. And after a few weeks/months of displaying different choices and behavior I was supposed to TRUST that it would last forever. C'mon.

And I was supposed to believe that he was doing this for ME.
Huh? He was doing it for HIMSELF. So that he wouldn't lose me. These changes weren't for MY benefit; they were for HIS benefit. It was so he could keep the comfort, security, and benefits I brought to the marriage.

So everything he did was looked at with suspicion and mistrust. Because I did believe he was manipulating me, saying things, doing things to get what HE wanted.

You can all say that Plan A is altuistic and the right thing to do and for the greater good of the family. (I get that now) But you have to admit that there is a selfish element of achieving what YOU want, the marriage intact.

Ok...gotta go. And for all of you out there unhappy with my comments, please understand I am representing my FORMER mindset. I just think I understand these issues better than a betrayed spouse who want to chalk it up to being a cheater or selfish or projecting.

Wandering spouses feel real pain too. Its not a party.
Having been BOTH, I can tell you I experienced far more pain as a WW than as a BW.

Exactly. You said it more clearly than I did.



I don't know that they realize it is neutral or in line with what they want to do - I think they are afraid it is a trap because we are out to "get" them or ruin their happiness.

I can't remember the specifics, but I offered WH something in mediation that I didn't want to give, but was hoping a little "good faith" gesture would help show that I'm not out for his blood. He flat out refused - and it was REALLY good for him. Both lawyers looked at him like he was nuts for not accepting. He just flat out refused and his lawyer could not change his mind. Mediation was a bust because he couldn't negotiate.

He bit off his own nose to spite his face.

Lexxxy....looking forward to your thoughts.

Fox

Yes, I think my WW hates this about me.

Just a recap of what I've heard so far. Then I'll respond to a few others.

Okay, so we've got a lot of votes for projection. The general theme being the WS concludes "I'm untrustworthy so everyone else is."

We've got few votes for observed behavior obscured by fog. The general theme being "I used to trust the BS, but now since they don't support my wayward ways, the WS must have misjudged them and they are untrustworthy."

A few for the WS thinks the BS is incompetent or of very low self esteem. The general theme being "Why should I trust someone who clearly can't see how badly I treat them or doesn't care about it"

One (or two) for genuinely not trusting the BS motives.

A few for this is not a lack of trust at all, this is a manipulative tactic.

And a few for, the question is moot, you're crazy, blind and should dump your lying manipulative WW.

Finally, some have suggested that its a combination of the above, a sort of situational mistrust.

I'm not really wondering. Most of the responses were as I suspected they would be. And most of them leave me with the opinion that there is really nothing I can do about it.


This made me think of an interesting point. Completely agree with the statement above, but also add that it seems many WS take it for granted that they know the mind of the BS. Maybe this is not the same as trusting, but at times a I feel my WW thinks she knows me so well that if my words don't match her image of me, she believes her image of me.


I hope you do say more. I'm going to poke at a couple things you said. Hopefully, that won't run you off.


You don't think any of that plays a part in it? If so, I would have to disagree. I often get frustrated when I seek advice here, since most advice is generally kept simple and blunt. Now, I can understand that in some circumstances. But in others, it comes across as an easy out statement. A fear of complexity. I understand Occam's razor (All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one), but IME, people and their relationships seldom have all things being equal and seldom are the solutions simple. That being said, I would theorize that that the above may not be incorrect, but rather incomplete.


Yes, my WW has said the same things. I think she said she's hated me for years.


Well I guess this is part of my question. I can't say for your situation, but in mine, there was a lack of feedback from my WW. She's convinced she told me our M had problems. I'm convinced that its the one thing she didn't tell me had problems. I honestly don't know who is right. But if I tell her the apparent suddeness of my changes aren't because their insincere, its because I didn't know the changes were needed, she doesn't believe that.


Again, I have a similar dilemma. That may be what my WW thinks, but it is incorrect.


IMHO, methods, motivations and objectives all too often get confused. Plan A is a method. Keeping the M intact may be an objective. But I don't think one could infer that because one uses plan A in an attempt to keep a M intact, that their motives are selfish. Yet my WW seems to.

Anyway, hope to hear yours and others thoughts.

I too am curious to hear much more from you Lexxxy.

I'm sure you're not surprised we BS's tend to get that "mob mentality" and pile on against anything and everything we think a WS might use to "justify" an affair.

Sometimes here we get so much validation for our "self-righteous" POV that we lose sight of the fact that in relationships, there is what IS, not always what SHOULD BE.

I'm thinking it's pretty well established that everyone has their own experience of life, and there's a continuum of "reality" from complete and total emotional detachment on the one side to utter delusion on the other...most of us live somewhere in the middle.

Those in affairs, and my WW is no different, are living "their" reality, and the fact that it doesn't mesh with our own is just another example of why relationships aren't easy.

If you want to have someone agree with everything you say and think like you do a person should marry themselves. For whatever reason, we're often attracted to someone very much different from ourselves and therein lies the cornerstone of conflict.

Most of the things Lexxxy has said echo those of my wife...

Lexxy, how did YOU find your way back?

Where to start?

So many of these posts incensed me. There is just no compassion for a WS. Just chalk it up to being a lousy no good liar. Don't any of you realize that WS feel PAIN?

How can you possibly hope to restore a marriage with this mindset? So many of these posts resonate with the "holier than thou" attitude. If you really feel like your WS are such scum, why are you here?

ws are scum...and liars by their very nature.
fws are not...it's all about choices and actions.

Unfortunately,
Infidelity Changes People. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Sadly,
mostly NOT in the best of ways.
You can't dance with the devil .......and not expect to come away with some Dirt [changes].

The skill sets a WS learns/uses during adultery,
well,
lets just say they are not all that positive from the BS point of view.
Naturally,
Some of this is carried onward back into the relationship.

Infidelity the gift that just keeps on giving. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

ok...so Rprynne's wife is still a "ww" by title.
How does that help him?

He wants to understand why she doesn't trust him.
Are there no valid, understandable reasons for that?

I don't agree with what seems to be your position medc.
That the WS is bad, and the BS is good. Its not that simple.

I didn't say anything about the BS...BUT...every single WS is by their very acts, a liar and a no good cheat. Their acts define them...liars lie...cheaters cheat.....
Show me a WS that is open and honest about what they are doing...honest with everyone right from the get go, and I would remove the liar label.

And to you it isn't that simple...to me, nothing could be more simple.

medc;

To you everything is black and white. Thats fine. That's your view and I respect it. I just don't see how your view is helping Rprynne. His question cannot be anwered with the simple "ws is bad" answer.

The fact is; even a WS can be right about some things.

yes, a WS can be right about some things...but their opinion is not to be respected or considered until they are no longer wayward. Hitler had a great handle on Scripture...but there was no reason to consider his views.

As far as why I have posted what I posted...I was responding to you. And I don't see how your views would be helpful.

and no, not everything is balck and white...but when it comes to good/evil...yes, there is a clear line of demarcation for me.

wow -- so a BS should not consider anything a WS has to say?
even about the state of the marriage....wow.

"And I don't see how your views would be helpful."

really? you don't?

And for the record...I don't think WS behavior is "good".
But I also believe that a BS has their share of "bad".

No, so long as they are wayward...nothing they say should be given any significant weight. Not a single word...liars lie.

not about everything medc. Can't you acknowlege that?
Not everything they say is a lie.

Come on Lexxxy. If a WS isn't a liar then why are they lying? If they are not a cheater, then why are they cheating?

Why not just go file for divorce, leaving everyone with as much dignity as possible?

I was wayward in college in a way. I know I was lying and I was definitely in pain. I couldn't bring myself to break up with either one of them. Trouble was my pain was all self-inflicted. I was coward and had some stupid misguided notion I was protecting them. I didn't want to hurt them.

How arrogant of me. How blind. How self-riteous.

In retrospect the truth was I didn't want to make a decision. I didn't want to suffer. I wanted to end up in first place.

Do you see my point, Lexxxy. Why don't they just leave. Why cheat?

I thought we did give some good reasons why they don't trust. Also, you can only speak for yourself, not for all waywards.

I hear something totally different from the other FWW's I know. So perhaps there are many reasons why a wayward may not trust their BS.

no, Lexy, I can't acknowledge that because YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN A LIAR IS LYING.

I do think there are many reasons Weaver.
But according to many here, none of them matter.

So, why ask the question? Apparently its simple.
Don't pay attention to anything they have to say...

Good luck with that.