I can grasp it...but it just seems like a waste of time. To each his own.

I can't say whether my WW feels this way or not. But to the best of my knowledge, I've never given her that impression. I've never been real concerned about appearences


Can you say more. Did you get over this? Yes, No, why?

Don't you want to be in a good, solid, happy marriage? Isn't that what you came here for? I know that is why I came here.

Do you love her so much that you are willing to risk never having a loving, caring marriage?

I can understand if it is for the children or for religious beliefs, but I can't understand it if it is just because this is the only woman in the whole world you can even imagine loving.

And if marriage to her is really truly what you want, I think the way you are going about it just might get you divorced.

Do you believe she is still in an affair? I know she is still waywad, but an active affair?

Exactly. Couldn't agree more. And I'll probably get hit by a bus on my way home for saying this, but time I got.

I completely realize others don't have time.

Just for me, I've spent the better part of 38 years, efficiently working hard towards certain objectives and making sure I don't waste time. It may be time for me to try something different.

Which is hard to post on these forums, because a lot of times people quit giving any advice once you say, hey that plan is not right for me. You get beat down for either having no backbone, brains or both.

I won't beat you down for not working the plans. I have never been one to fight for every marriage on here. But I will tell you that I think you could use some mental health intervention as I do believe you live in complete denial about your life and life in general.
This is not a trial run...you don't get a do over.

Either way, I will wish you luck and wonder why if you are not doing anything to help your situation...other than not doing anything...why are you here? To ask questions of people for philosophical reasons??? I just don't see the point.

Actually I know someone on this forum who didn't follow the plans per se. I happen to repect him a great deal. Believe in yourself.

Most of us won't agree with it, but so what. I'll still give you my perspective and support and so will many others. My perspective will be totally slanted, but you gotta expect that here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

It helps if you say that right out. "I don't want to follow this plan, but I'd like some perspectives on the plan I have chosen for myself."

How timely, as we've recently begun to cover this in MC.

In our instance, a fundamental lack of trust in anyone by H is a factor. Due to issues with his FOO and subsequent experiences, the most he says he can trust anyone is about 70%. I'm the person he trusts the most.

Instead of being a symptom of an affair, his unwillingness or inability to trust is one of the factors that led up to them. He keeps a bit of distance from everyone so nobody can hurt him too badly.

He's working on it, but it's one of those things that must be hard to learn if you never had it before.

After reading that again, I wanted to clarify that it's not that he thinks I'll have an affair. It's more of an expectation that I just won't be there for him some day.

I think that old saying "the guilty dog barks the loudest" applies here.

Yes.


Nope.


I don't have children and its not about my religious beliefs. There's probably a part of me that keeps fighting because I take vows pretty seriously and I'm loyal to a fault. Its not that my WW is the only woman I can ever imagine loving.


To be brutally honest, I can't say if marriage to her is what I truly want. I don't know if its years at the type of work I do, or how I was raised or what, but what I want is to proove it out, so to speak. Had I known then, what I know now, I don't believe we would be in this mess. What I want is the opportunity to test it out. 4 things for her to do, stop cheating, stop lying, move home, give it a try. If she still loves me but is not in love with me at that point, then go our merry way.

But, again, I've told her that and she believes she knows better.


Is this a trap question? She is not seeing him anymore, but she allows contact. He makes a point to have some sort of contact with her about every other month or so, she doesn't tell me about it, and won't tell him to knock it off.

No. I just need all the details. Rprynne I understand a little better when you say you need "proove".

Scientific types are frustrating though.

May I ask what I posted that makes you think I'm in denial? I think I'm seeing things pretty clearly.


Fully aware of that.


I did not mean to imply I'm not doing anything. I'm just not doing plan A, plan B or Plan D at this time. I've been through a lot in the last 2.5 years. Damn near lost my job, I've been to IC, twice, worked on myself, fixed a lot of things. I've protected myself as best I can. I have a decision point coming up. I ask the questions for practical reasons. In the coming months, either my WW is going to come home or I'm going to be filing for a D. And I have my reasons for why I'm waiting.

MEDC, One other thing, I'm always a little leery about what I post here because one of the biggest mistakes I made was asking my WW to come here. She sure did use my posts to help in going underground.

Sort of like if you were against something that is obviously so good for me, then you must be against me.

And I get that when the BS is suggesting something that goes against what the WS wants to do.

What puzzles me is when they still don't trust you when something you suggest is neutral or in line with what they want to do.

Which I guess may be different causes for the same action. Projection on one guilt on the other.

Well, they have to rebel against SOMETHING.

Overgrown adolescents.

That's fine. I just didn't want to give the impression that I think an A can be over if contact continues.

rprynne,


Because they cannot trust themselves.

-LE

Stop wondering why she doesn't trust you. If you gave her a Plan B letter spelling out what SHE has to do to earn your trust, then just go to Plan B and stay there.

Lexxxy, I remember my WXH saying things like: "you'll never change", "you just want me to lose the OW", or "it's too late" as excuses to discount any improvements I made during Plan A. But IMHO he didn't really doubt that I was willing to do my best to save our marriage and to keep up the effort forever, I had always been the one wanting to work on our marriage, making improvements, scheduling mc appointments, trying to compete with the latest OW... I have read though that it is important that the BS be sincere and not making temporary improvements just until the WS comes home.

However, I do think the WS has to accept the fact that the BS is entirely justified in giving up all those efforts and going to Plan B or D after a reasonable amount of time. I can also understand a WS worrying that the improvements are not permanent but that can be dealt with in mc. If the BS goes back to taking the WS for advantage the WS ALWAYS still has the option of telling the BS they are not satisfied and filing for divorce if the BS refuses to work on the marriage. Adultery is never a valid response to whatever is lacking in a spouse or marriage. I guess if the WS senses that the BS will take them back but the OP won't (if they end the adulteyr and give their marriage a fighting chance) then the WS won't be willing to end it with the OP without a guarantee from the BS that the improvements are permanent? I just wonder why the WS doesn't realize that the charm and excitement of the adultery is never permanent, that it will surely fade, and THAT is a much greater likelihood and risk.

In a way it's the BS's devotion, and the OP's lack of committment, that empowers the WS to demand the BS compete unfairly with the OP. The WS is basically admitting that the OP won't wait for them if they go back to their BS, therefore the WS wants a guarantee before they leave the OP?
I think the WS should be more careful not to take the BS for granted. The WS can get too used to the cake-eating, having the upper hand, and bullying their scared BS into competing and concessions. I can imagine what an ego trip that must give! So in that sense the BS should NOT try to convince the WS that the improvements are permanent. Plan A should not be too short OR too long before Plan B is switched to and then indeed the improvements come to a screechign halt unless the adultery ending and marriage recovery terms are met. And THEN it is the WS who has some proving to do...

I believe it is this simple. You believe about others what you project to others. Projecting lies, mistrust and deceit knowingly would pretty much force them to expect the same in response or at least that would be their greatest fear.