In my time here, I have seen BS that would have done much better had they not listened to their WS even a little bit. EVERYTHING that spews from the mouth of a WS is open for doubt...every single word. There is nothing that I would trust a WS with...not my child, not my money, not anything...they are liars and cheats...to their very core...until their actions...not their suspect words, show otherwise.

I think too many BS's make the mistake of listening to too much the WS has to say. It is counter-productive to breaking up the affair at that point , because the BS first and foremost needs to break up the affair, and he can't do that if he is thrown into a sea of regret, self -flagulation, doubt, indecision.

Most of the BS's on here pay very close attention to the what the FWS has to say, and work very hard to become better spouses with a better marriage.

Lexxxy, is something going on with you? I just have never seen you post this way. And I'm not saying it's bad or anything. It's good to speak up. I'm glad you are offereing your perspective. It's good to see you posting, Lex, and many on here have been looking for that perspective...waiting for you to come back and continue.

Lexxy - I hope you will speak up and answer some of the questions I asked. I would like to hear your answers.

FWIW, I don't think all WS lie all the time. I consider myself to be fairly empathetic and try to understand where people our coming from.

For the most part I think most people jump to the simplest answers because a lot of times the simplest answer is the correct answer. I get frustrated with it as well. I've had many a thread end here because people just refuse to consider I may not be in the pain others are in, I'm not in denial, I'm not being fooled or tricked or manipulated. I don't mind people disagreeing with me, in fact I welcome other's opinions. What I usually don't like is when folks respond with the short "this is what this is", when it seems they haven't read anything I posted.

Like I said before, I've been told several times, I'm blind, or in denial, or crazy. When I ask people to provide me what evidence they have that supports that, I usually get no response.

I've also posted on here that I understand why people get blunt or agressive or what not. Many people do need to get shaken up, or motivated to act, etc. It just don't work with me. I realize that I got burned. I realize that for a time, I was in denial, didn't spot the BS, etc. But, I've learned from my mistakes.

Anyway, I would like to hear your comments. I believe much of what you said my WW has thought. So what am I to do? By the tone of your posts, it sounds as if I'm at a dead end. All the reasons why you didn't trust your BS seem to be going through my WS's mind. But she won't say any of that. No amount of reassuring her of my motivations seems to matter.

That's really the meat of the question, isn't it?

To us BS's, we're there for our WS. What our WS sees, OTOH, is our "selfish" desire to "hold on to them" and "keep them from being happy".

They CANNOT see our motivations for what they are, because they're irrelevant. EVERYTHING we do is evaluated by its impact on the affair.

The question should be, how do you do an end run around those defenses - showing them you ARE trustworthy, that you aren't selfish, that you are on THEIR side??

Well said LTF.



By a good Plan A? By being the "lighthouse"? By avoiding R talks unles they bring them up? By loving detachment?

Someone on here said he regained his WW's interest by talking as little as possible. By merely listening. He said the more he listened, the more she talked, and the more she talked (and he listened with his mouth shut) the more interested she became in him.

rprynne,

I know a former, well respected member of this board who left a couple of years ago and went on to establish a counseling practice using MB principles (as well as other approaches).

I asked this person why they don't post here anymore... and they told me it was because they found the board to be intollerant of the W/FW POV, and therefore limited as a tool to understand the thoughts/mindset of a W/FW.

If you really want insight and candid comments from other W/FW's, you might consider seeking out other sources of information.

Just a thought.

--SC

To a large extent, yes. But there are some other subtleties. Notably to me is that my WW can't seem to believe me when I say you/us is not the only thing on my mind. I mean I've had times when I talk to her and I say, I'm in a bad mood because I had a crappy day at work. Now if it any point during that conversation our M comes up, I get an aha, I knew you were really mad at me. But, I'm sorry, there is always an undercurrent of disappointment about my M, but that doesn't change the fact that I still was just mad about my day at work.


Which is really odd to me, because I don't want to be married to an unhappy person.


I always get 2x4's when I say this, but in my sitch this has very little to do with the A anymore. I can't say there is NC, but I can say with absolutely certainty, that this is not a case of classic "fence sitting". My WW is not sitting there with fantasies about her and OM running off and being together, but keeping me along as a safety net. A or no A, my WW was leaving me.



Did that for a very long time.


I fear that technique, would leave me listening to silence.


Hey, the board is pretty intollerant of BS's too. We got a pretty rigid decision tree going on here. "My S says they aren't in love with me." (They're cheating, plan A and demand a NC letter). "That didn't work" (Plan B, wait till them come back, demand counseling and a NC letter). "That didn't work" (Plan D and move on with your life).

For the most part, I'm okay with that. That's the path with the highest probability of success in the largest number of cases. Because of that, I'm also fine that when a poster says, yeah but, my sitch is unique, and that path isn't the best for me, that most people repeatedly challenge them. They should, because odds are, they are right.

What irks me is when people challenge that without backing up their assertion.

Finally, I would ask your friend to come back and post. I don't understand when people who have something to add, leave because others disagree with them, their advice, or their style. One of my favorite posters is MelodyLane (still waiting on my answer about my BS detector, BTW) and I disagree with her at least a third of the time. But she's in there slugging away, with what she believes is good advice. Her style is what it is, and to some in may sound harsh, but sometimes people need to hear it that way. The board begins to appear intolerent because people with different sytles or different advice stop posting.


I have. MC, MC with SH, IC, group therapy, books. Crap, I know more about relationships than I ever wanted to.

SC - OT, related to my paragraphs above, you too are one of my favorite posters. Why did you not respond to Mrs. W's questions on a thread a few weeks back? I wanted to hear your answers. I know you are doing a lot of introspection and discovery about your feelings. Either you said (or alluded that) you feel you never loved your H. I would advise a tremendous amount of caution when doing this. I have a deep concern that you have convinced yourself that you never loved your H and now are selectively processing actions, thoughts and emotions of the past in support of that position. This is a lot easier to do than most would imagine. I remeber once my WW saying to me, (in support of her arguement that she never loved me), was that she had doubts about going through with things on our wedding day. What struck me about that, is that I also had doubts about it. If I take the position that I never loved my WW, then those thoughts can clearly be considered proof that it is true. However, if I take the position that everyone has those doubts, then those thoughts can be considered proof of nothing. KWIM.

Have you ever considered just dropping the deliberations on whether you did love your H? Dropping the deliberations on whether you believe "fake it, till you make it" will actually work. Rather just set as your goal, I'm going to be happy and love my H, what do he and I have to do to make that happen? I'm not a rah, rah, power of positive thinking kind of person. But I do know having and expectation of failure versus faith in sucess, greatly reduces your odds.

Rprynne, the reason I did not follow up is because when I responded to THIS in your initial post:


You responded to my response that the above was a "classic smoke screen, which it is, with:


So the nature of the complaint changed quite dramatically from quote #1 to quote #2. And that’s ok, I just don't have the patience to go back and decipher your meaning to get us on the same page. The reason I said your BS detector was broken was because you seemed to not understand that not wanting your BS to go to the store with you is a classic smokescreen of a wayward.


So, that explains why I didn't answer. I just didn't feel like I could contribute anything if there was such a WIDE communication GAP to begin with and I don't have the patience to bridge that gap. I went NEVER MIND, instead. But, I still love ya, rprynne! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Kind of what I figured, but never hurts to check it out.

I'm sure I'll get another opportunity for a Texas size can of whup a** in the future. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Actually, the board is very "tolerant" of waywards, they are allowed to post here. Tolerance is required for OPPOSING VIEWS, after all, not views about which you already approve. Waywards do not have a special immunity to CHALLENGE, [no one does, not even their victims] though, and that is what bothers some of the more wayward minded. But that is not "intolerance."

If you want to see some real intolerance, I know of a board that actually PROTECTS the waywards and will not ALLOW others to CHALLENGE their waywardness. The WS's are actually given a little protected forum where they can discuss their waywardness freely without challenge - challenges are strictly forbidden. Another board has fascist speech codes that are strictly enforced; nothing negative or truthful can be said. Now, THAT is intolerance to the MAX.

Secondly, one does not need to understand the views of a wayward in order to recover; the wayward needs to do the understanding here in order to get better. The WW knows how to be wayward, they need to learn how to NOT be wayward. Besides, a monkey can "understand" fogbabble, there is no great secret there. Big deal.

I was also awaiting your answer to MrsW's question about your H. Hope you don't run from the challenge.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Intolerant may be the wrong descriptor. Perhaps impatient or authoritative. Heck, I don't know. Speaking for myself, I'm not very good at just being told the answer to the problem. I do better when someone helps me solve it. Then I get it.

there is no reason to be patient with waywards...justa s there is no reason to be patient with anyone that is actively destrying other people. Aggressive action should always be taken when people are being harmed.

I think the board tends to challenge FOG, whether it comes from a wayward or a BS. I have noticed that the problem with most here is that their minds have not been ruined yet by political correctness and they usually just say it how it is. They are not well indoctrinated in the art of double speak and weasel words.

rprynne,

Just to clarify: "intolerant" was not my word choice, it is the exact word this other person used to describe their perception of the board when it comes to W/FW's. Again, this is from someone who recovered a marriage from infidelity and went on to become a licensed counselor using MB in their practice.

You started this thread seeking to understand the mindset of your WW. I was simply suggesting that if you really want to understand, you might find more candid answers elsewhere. And since I knew (from past experience) that any suggestion to that effect from ME would be poo-pooed, I backed it up with a statement from someone who happens to agree... but who's a BS... in a recovered marriage... and working as licensed counselor.

In MY opinion... the board is warm and fuzzy for those WS's who toe the line, quickly fall back in love with their BS and recover their marriages. But it can be downright hostile to those who continue to struggle in their marriage.

you said:


Let me tell you how that decision tree has worked for me:

"I had an affair. I'm not in love with OM, but I don't love my H either. In fact, I'm not sure I ever did." (You have rewritten your history to justify your affair. Go NC and start meeting your H's EN's. Your memories will change and the feelings will return.)

"It isn't working." (Keep trying.)

"It still isn't working." (You still sound foggy. You must not be trying hard enough. It takes time. Keep at it. Are you back in contact with OM?)

"NC is intact. I AM trying. But it still isn't working. My recollections and feelings haven't changed" (Well then... something must be terribly wrong with YOU. You're either a fogged-out liar or a decietful, manipulative, horrible person. You don't know what love is. Never mind that we said your feelings for your BS would retrun, feelings don't matter. Love is a choice! In fact... you must be a troll... a shark who's only here to take nips out of vulnerable newbie BS's!!!!!)

Now there's a fine display of tolerance. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Okay, enough.

I never intended to get into a debate over whehter or not the board is intolerant of W/FW's. I think it is intolerant. And I'm not alone in that opinion. Therefore, rprynne, I don't think you'll get as much useful feedback on your question here as you might from other sources. If you think the responses you've gotten here have been helpful, fine. But you might note that almost all of the posts so far have been from BS's... conjecturing what goes on in the mind of a WS... not from FWS themselves.

I bet Lexxxy could have helped. That girl's got a lot of gumption and grit. IMO, she remembers the thoughts and feelings of a WS better than most... and is very good at articulating those thoughts and feelings. And she knows what it's like to end an affair but still have trouble in the marriage. I don't know why she didn't come back and elaborate on her posts. But if... by chance... it's b/c she grew weary of swimming against the tide... well... I know the feeling very well.


Mel,


Oh. That was supposed to be a CHALLENGE? It was presented as a sincere desire to understand and help. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But thanks for confirming what I suspected all along. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

--SC

Nice posts smartcookie.



Max

I am wading in carefully here, as I have become quite adept lately at avoiding the controversial threads on the forum, and I don't want to lose the skill. But this thread....

I really must agree w/SC. The numbers alone on this board tell the story. How many times I have seen a question directed to WS/FWSs and the vast majority of the answers are from BSs, speaking for their F/WS. That's just not going to tell the original poster what he wants to know, but it's much more palatable.

I'm not going to get into the specifics of my own situation, but I will say that the BS who ignores everything his WS/FWS says on the grounds that it must be "fog talk" or revisionist history does so at his own peril.

PK

My .02.

Why do waywards not trust BSs? Because what you want is different than what they want and they are aware that your agenda is to undermine the direction they have said they want to go.

The larger issue? Why ask someone who is in a wayward frame of mind anything you plan to hold them accountable for if you recognise that they ARE "not themselves", "the alien", etc and so on? What is the point of that? You may just as well take a tab of acid and trip out in the corner for awhile...A BS interrogating a WS is looking for answer in a place where there are no answers. They do not have the key and are lost in their own fog.

The solution?

Plan A. Address the issues that you are aware of in the relationship as well as you can. Which is probably not very well. At least in the short term. If the answer were not complex and easily fixed you wouldn't have the issue in the first place.

But relax...a wayward becomes wayward because of the wickedness in their OWN heart...not because of anything you have done or not done. You aren't responsible for it and you can't direct it with the force of your will and you can't "argue" it out of them or love it out of them or understand it out of them.

Expose. Bring reality and fantasy into a collision as completely and suddenly as possible.

Plan B.

Separate yourself from the person who is spinning the drain. You can't save them. You can't control this.

The Harley flaw.

Assumes that all people WERE in love at one time. This is not a fair assumption HOWEVER the question of consequences and personal histories can't be addressed with a "wayward" frame of mind. That requires emotional honesty, maturity, and personal responsibility.

Assuming that the wayward is no longer "wayward". They have accepted 100% responsibility, gone thorugh withdrawl, and been operating "fog free" for at least six months.

That is about the point at which I would take any issues seriously including the "I never loved you".

There will be a different answer for different people to that situation.

It would require a HUGE show of HUMILITY and REMORSE!

A big apology for the deceit and fraud involved in marrying someone that you knew you did not love. Robbing them even more than yourself because only YOU had the info and the choices.

See for me...as a Christian...that would be a life sentence because marriage is "for keeps" even if feelings change or were never there to begin with.


In that scenario I would have to make the best of it and I do think the Harley plan is the best odds plan to that effect. Whether that involved forgiving someone who pretended to love me or asking for forgiveness and accepting that I have chosen that relationship AND made it permanent of my own free will. I understand that I am not entitled to FEEL in love. And I am not entitled to have someone feel that way about me...though I would like it...and I would not have made the choices I did if I had known the truth.

For someone who does NOT share my beliefs...well there might be a different solution that they would accept or conclude. I can't agree with it but I can acknowledge that it would probably be the end of the marriage...again HUGE HUGE remorse and accepting consequences with an attitude of "I have completely screwed you and you are losing everything you invested in because of my dishonesty" which means that I would not seek out any gain or asset in the termination of the marriage. Not equity, not custody..nothing. I would deserve nothing and would not EVER be able to pay my debt...I literally CAN'T give back what I have taken. But that's all hypothetical because there is no reason to anticipate that someone who has behaved with complete selfishness and lack of ethics up to that point would be suddenly willing to embrace the notion of personal accountability and consequence. Probably they'd go for a divorce and get as much as the law said they could take. More selfishness. More short sightedness. Just because it hasn't made you happy yet doesn't mean it won't this time right?



So I guess that's sort of a long winded way of saying that I don't approach rebellion and selfishness with tender indulgence and I wouldn't encourage anyone else to either.

Did you know that Dr. Harley is a licensed psychologist - very successful too! - and he is happy with the board? Did you know that Steve Harley, a licensed therapist, is happy with his board? So if your little friend feels that MB is "intollerant" of waywards, she should go start her OWN board and run it the way she sees fit; JUST LIKE THE HARLEY'S HAVE.

Who knows, maybe the Harleys will feel she is a little too "tollerant" of waywards.


SC, and I suspected that was exactly WHY you did run, you view it as a challenge, for whatever reason. Still awaiting your answer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Or is it "intollerant" to ask you any questions at all?


Nice dramatization. You sound like such a victim! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> The made up dramatization you described - and it was cartoonish and very dramatic - was completely manufactured. Your characterization is a thinly veiled RUSE designed to NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION! [if I just act AGHAST and offended they ASKED the question, then maybe I won't have to ANSWER it!]

You really, really don't want to answer that question, do you? Why, SC?

See, tolerance is needed for OPPOSING views, did you know that? And as you can see, opposing views are allowed here. So it is not true that the board is not "tollerant" of waywards. THEY ARE. However, waywards are not entitled to be immune from CHALLENGES. [neither are their victims] This is just more of your apparent belief that hard questions should not be put to waywards. On the other hand, YOU are intolerant of OTHERS here using your own standard.

Maybe tolerance could work both ways? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Smartcookie -- just wanted to tell you that you are one of my favorite posters and I wish you were around more.

You hit the nail on the head on my reasons for not coming back to elaborate. Sometimes I have the energy for these board debates, and sometimes I don't. Right now I'm just too darn busy with work and life to feel like I can keep up with this thread.

Rprynne -- there were problems in my marriage. I had known for quite some time I was just marking time. I had an affair. I experienced all the WS mentality. However in the end, my affair ended, and a couple years later my marriage ended too. And ending BOTH of those relationships was the right decision.

But I will NEVER agree that while a WS, that I shouldn't have been listened to or that what I had to say wasn't valid. And I'm done fighting that battle with MEDC or anyone else that closed-minded. I won't convince them, and they won't convince me.

Noodle, good post. I have a strong belief in MB theories.
They work.

Rprynne -- asking your question of a board made up mainly of BS's is difficult. Because I for one got very frustrated and annoyed with the know-it-all answers you got from BS's who think they know what a WS is thinking or feeling.

I think this could have been a good discussion, but its deteriorated too far to be effective anymore.