Pot-kettle.

That is too bad Lexxy, I feel you were on the cusp of helping illuminate an issue I struggle with understanding. What you say is much like what my W was saying when she was wayward, and in some ways resembles what she says now when trying to explain what happened. So I'm going to jack this thread if I can because I want to hear what you have to say!

Its complicated because I don't even know really what I want to know! But really the gist is: she says she was unhappy for a long time but I don't know if I really believe that. I believe that she believes it, but she also believes (or believed) that she told me she was unhappy, but she never did. She has even said that she thought she was trying to tell me she was unhappy but that I wasn't picking up on it and that she never flat out came out and said "hey, I am unhappy here and our marriage is in trouble". The reason I disbelieve this is because I was there, she never ACTED unhappy before the A. Our close mutual friends don't believe she was unhappy and were as surprised by the A as I was.

I don't disbelieve that she was unhappy because I think she is lying, I disbelieve it because I don't think its true, I think its really a deeply rooted justification for the A that started when the A started and has been clung to afterwards as a reason for having the A. I'm certainly not saying this is the case for you at all.

Would you try to answer this for me? If you were unhappy in your M, what enabled you to make the decision to have an A presuming the fact that you see yourself as a generally honest person and recognize the moral quagmire that an A represents. How do the Wayward get from "I am unhappy" to "my unhappiness justifies my affair"? Its just that somewhere in that sequence I get lost. Do you know how you got from unhappy to infidelity?

I know this is clumsy, as I said, I don't really know what I want to know!

Sorry for the threadjack rprynne!

lol...touche'

Also, if there is a better place to get a reasonable Wayward perspective I would like to investigate it a bit (at my own peril, I know). Where is this place?

gloryb... the other woman.

Tyk -- want to start a new thread? I'll jump on it.
Your questions and issues are different than Rprynnes.

this beast does not exist.

Lexxy: meet me in my post d-day thread linked at the bottom of my post, I will repost my question there if you don't mind.

I'm not going to plug another website on this one, but I suggest that you do a google search on "surviving infidelity". You will get honest former wayward views. Currently wayward views are challenged, as they should be, in a moderated fashion.

Not sure why the gloryb site gets so much play here. They must enjoy that.

PK

Ok, so "reasonable post-wayward" viewpoint. Does that exist?

Lexxxy,

Thanks. And me too... about the "too busy to put in the time and energy here" thing. Demanding career. Two young children. Weird... how I devote so much time and attention to those two little critters when I'm nothing but a selfish, uncaring person with no morals and ethics, huh? Or maybe I'm just "using" them to "run" from the tough questions posed to me here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Rprynne... I'm so sorry about the colossal T/J. I wish I had some insight for you. I know it takes time for a WS to trust that the BS's plan-A changes are for real. But, if you've been consistent with all that, it seems to me that too much time has passed for it to be that.

It also seems to me that MT is in some sort of death-grip self protection/preservation mode. I don't know what she's afraid of... or protecting. But the fact that she seems to be so uncommunicative about what's going on inside her is puzzling to me.

Could it be that she really, desperately wants a divorce but can't... and I mean CAN NOT... out of some deep seeded fear... bring herself to be the bad guy and file? Do you think she could be... whether consciously or not... trying to push you to be the one to make that move? I’m out on a limb here… but I know you’re not too suggestible… and will be able to discern whether I’m onto something or not.

Good luck, rprynne.

--SC

P.S. Thanks so much for your thoughts on my sitch. I really do understand what you're suggesting, and in fact, it's exactly what I'm trying to do.

yes...right here on these boards...seek out Mrs.W for the best of the best.

tyk, you should also know that the board recommended by penaltykill has a protected section for waywards in which betrayed spouses/others are not allowed to challenge. Any "disrespect" or "judgmentalism" to waywardness expressed on the forum will result in being BANNED. It is the epitomy of INTOLERANCE. I have not gone there and read myself but I have heard the opinions of a licensed counselor and others, from this board, who were quite sickened by it.

Tyk, take it from a former wayward, you don't need to understand the fogged out mind of a wayward in order to recover. In fact, it is very easy to understand, a monkey could do it. But all they know is how to be wayward and all that emcompasses, which will get you nowhere.

Waywards have the same mentality as alcoholics, and believe me, AA is not successful because they sit around and try to understand the thinking of falling down drunks. They only know how to get drunk, they don't know how to sober up. Recovery comes from listening to RECOVERED people, not sick people.

I'm not really wanting to understand the wayward mind. I'm wanting to understand how a person that I know was honest, with a strong moral code who was repulsed by infidelity somehow engaged in an affair.

I don't even view the question as essential to our recovery or anything, its just that I do want to understand it, and I want my W to understand it because I think understanding it will help put me at ease and help her prevent it happening again.

See, I don't really view my wife as a dishonest person, even now. I do now know that she has that capability within her, and that is disturbing to say the least. I believe that she does not intend to cheat again, but the reality is that it happened and I struggle with how the moral code can fray like that. Lexxy was on the cusp of getting there but it got sidetracked!

You can discover this by empathy.

Have you ever told a lie?

I'll bet you have. Even though you don't like that behavior and would categorise it as "bad" you have still done it haven't you?

The either one of two things happened.

You confessed or you took it waaaaaay underground and built a life around it.

Waywardness is deliberate willfull rebellion and nothing more..nothing less.

Being in that frame of mind...where you reject your commitments and your promises and your responsibilities to gratify yourself and your impulses changes your feelings about EVERYTHING. Everything is viewed through a different lense...but you don't need to ask a wayward how it looks because have yourself BEEN wayward at one time or another in your life.

Remember being a teenager? Were you ever in conflict because your parents told you that you weren't allowed to do something that you really wanted to do anyway?

Did you ever do it? Remember how exciting it was? Remember feeling guilty but excited at the same time? Remember how you felt powerfull and justified and looked at your parents as adversaries rather than your protectors and people you were subordinate to?

Ever been a young parent and go through a period of resentment wishing you hadn't had kids yet? Looking at all the things you could do if you didn't? Placing no value on the lives of the children or your role as parent?

Everyone and I mean everyone has waywardness inside them. it is very easy to understand.

The problem with trying to dialogue with a wayward about waywardness is that you are forgetting the rebellion element involved.

Trying to reason with the actively rebellious or trying to find resolution which requires anything resembling personal responsibility is like looking for a sober drunk in a bar.

Pointless.

Tyk, do you have Surviving an Affair and His Needs, Her Needs? Dr. Harley does a brilliant job of explaining how this happens in both. In HNHN, he explains the HOW, and in SAA, he focuses on eliminating the conditions that led to the temptation in the first place. He makes the point that the MAIN FOCUS should be on removing those conditions in recovery.

You might find this article very helpful: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5059_qa.html

Well, like I said, I do not know what would be the proper descriptor. I don't have any issue with agressive action. But agressive action has many forms and can be executed in many different ways. It is my opinion that there are times when there are more efficient (while still being agressive) methods.

But really, style debates are a waste of time. I imagine that you, like most people, are giving what you believe to be the best advice in what you believe to be the most efficient manner. Done voluntarily as well. So, IMHO, its not my place to ask you or anyone to tailor your message or modify your style into what I think it should be, or worse, into what I may want to hear. It's my responsibility to say thanks for the advice, consider it, and make my choices.


Yep, I heard you and have looked elsewhere.


I asked this once before on another post, but I'll ask again. Do you think that is really the nature of all the responses you've recieved? I don't think I've ever posted anything like this.


That was not my intent either. But in a macro way, this is sort of an analog to my orginal question.


Agree


I'm not picking on you here, but this sums up the feeling I get from my WW. It sounds as if never for a moment you thought it actually was a sincere desire to understand and help. Your very words "it was presented as a...", suggests a lack of trust. The intrepretation of the word challenge as adversarial or malacious. Leading to confirmation of your suspicions. What convinces you that the person asking these questions was insincere. I've not seen anything from Mrs. W that suggests she has bad intentions.

This is the same dynamic that happens with my WW. My opinions, ideas or thoughts are a presentation to her. To her they lack any possibility of genuine care or concern. She believes she knows my "real" motives it is only a matter of time until they are proven.


Possibly, but is this purely a function of tolerance for BS versus tolerance for WS? One could argue that the low ratio of WS to BS is due to the WS position being unsupportable. It is hard to not make that conclusion. I say this because both WS/BS start many a debate with the general premise that the reader just doesn't understand. In most occassions the BS continues to explain their position, while WS generally do not. And, at least IME, while the BS may not have to fight through being told they are selfish, lying cheats, they do have to fight through being told they are weak, of low self esteem or courage. Neither is very appealing, but BS generally seem to keep making their case.


Agree, this is less than ideal. But as alluded to above, BS seem to be the only one talking.


I've never been an advocate of this. Personally, I don't believe in ever ignoring a WS. I believe people speak as part of strategy to achieve an objective. There are times when one should ignore the words and hear the strategy/objective. Other times you should listen to the words. It just takes a lot of discipline to decide which.


Yes, I get your point. Just curious to me that while the BS objective is different, that the WS views it as malacious


I don't know. I guess the better we know the "alien", the better we can handle the situation.


Perfectly understandable. Hopefully, at some point you will get the time.


I spoke to this earlier in the post.


Well, maybe it hasn't deteriorated too far. I guess we'll see.

I am a FWW. I think that there are different types of WS's just like there are different types of BS's.

Some BS's won't tolerate an A and would divorce immediately, not even giving the WS a chance.

Some BS's hang on for a long time trying thru d-day after d-day.

Some WS's have an A and decide it was a huge mistake and commit fully to recovering their marriage (if the BS is willing).

Some WS's throw their whole being into it (the A) and fully feel they need to leave the M. No matter what the BS says or does, there is NO convincing them. It's all manipulation and empty promises, in their mind at least.

I think your wife might be the latter.

After I told my H about my A he started wanting to go everywhere with me. It was actually kind of nice. I liked having his company and help at the grocery store. We made an effort to do more together, to go out on the weekends, etc. It only lasted for so long though, he grew tired of those "mundane" chores.

I knew part of the reason he started to go with me to the store was to watch me, but hey, I didn't mind. I figured that was part of recovery. My A was back in 2001. Nowadays we have two very young ones (under the age of 3) and it's harder to go out on the weekends. We do make it a point to spend as much time together as possible. We talk on the phone throughout the day. Nothing is "forced" about the time we spend together.

If someone really WANTS to be with you, they wouldn't mind if you wanted to go ANYWHERE with them.

From what you've written, I think it's possible she just wants to move on and any attempts by you to get back into her head or life are seen as an annoyance. Keep in mind, I'm only going off what you've written. I've also read a lot of boards for OP. I'm not sure how much insight you'd gain into your situation there.

I do think there is a slight intolerance for the opinion of WS's here. We are accused of having no morals, being foggy, being nothing but huge liars. ******edit****** Just look at this thread. So it is hard for us to post what we are honestly thinking here.

I also agree with the poster that said sometimes they just don't have the energy to keep up the debate on here. Working full time and taking care of little ones will do that to you!! I can attest to that...

And then having to defend your moral character because you are the one who had an A. I've been accused of having no family values on here... I'm still married, 11 yrs and counting, and I've added two adorable children to my broad. I don't go out partying, I spend most all my spare time tending to my kids, making sure they are fed and loved, and spending time with my H. How awful of me!!!

Speaking of this other board:
If you go there,
you may like it or you may not.

Some do, some don't.

For me:
I didn't enjoy the total PC slant of it all.
{I don't relish it (PC) in real life .......so I don't desire to cater to it, when I actually have a choice in the matter}.
Keep in mind that Over there,
Even if someone is doing something I'd consider wrong .......you are NOT allowed to "judge" them or otherwise criticize in any manner or fashion.

The last straw for me personally,
was a poster that was edited and reprimanded for Getting on Themself. (putting Themself down for an action or thought they had).
It was really odd. [at least for me]
The moderators told the lady "your not Allowed to talk about yourself in this manner".
I was like "are you kidding"?? The woman was unHappy with herself and was venting a bit about it.

"Sorry, not permitted to express that Here"! Weird.

In addition,
I don't agree with the waywards commiserating with other waywards either --
On a protected (private) board No Less.
[So if your a BS, you won't get to read there anyway].
Unless you Lie, to gain access .....but that's your call.

For my money its Just too dangerous to let Affairees remain in the dark together.
I've seen the evidence [here] of what happens when a group of waywards come on and have each others back.
{One that stands out in my mind, were at least 3 WW's coming on and pining away for their A's and OM with the old "yes dear, I KNOW how you feel and I understand" routine.

Caused quit a stir a few yrs back.

Two eventually left ......One had some type of real life meltdown, While another went on to get yet a 2nd OM....which lead to her D.
Tragic really. I thought her and her H were gonna make it.

And this was all WITH oversight.
Imagine what happens when left to their own devices.

So I might check in there every other month or so .........cause honestly it really is SLOW over there and you don't miss much even if you only check in occasionally.
{Yes, I still check in once in a while cause many of the dear friends I've made On Here tend to post there sometimes}.

edit -sp- of course <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

As to other issues brought up:

I'll have to agree that "the fog" is used far too liberally [non political] in explaining away most anything a WS either does or says.

Now its true that blaming EVERYTHING on "the fog" is easier for the BS to stomach,
and therefore makes it more palatable to bringing the WS back into relationship.

{Sure helps to diffuse some of that resentment to blame that darn old FOG!}

However,
[IMO] it has taken on far toooo wide of a net [on the board]
& as a result tends to encompass ALL negative actions or statements a WS takes / makes.
Sadly, just ain't that simple.

[I'll not get a good grade for this one, but]
Unfortunately,
some of what a WS does and says really *is* what they believe & who they are.