toprope, I just don't understand why someone who has such hostility for the supposed "intolerance" of this board keeps coming back? To express THEIR own "intolerance" of the board, perhaps? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I don't know, if I don't like being some place, I LEAVE! REAL SIMPLE! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Not a problem. I like threadjacks


My sitch has many similaraties.


This may be a bit weird, but in my case I don't think its just justification for the A. I can't really describe it. Its a sort of unexpressed anger.


MT sure hates when I psycho-analyze her, but her goes. This is totally just my opinion and I could be completely wrong as MT won't talk much about it. I'll try to be brief and maybe you can share some insight. MT has never been authentic with anyone. She desires everyone's approval to such an extent that she will subordinate her on needs and wants completely. Go along to get along. However, this is not sustainable. The more she gives, the more expectations increase. This becomes too stressful. As the stress increases her taker comes out. When her taker comes out, she begins to be unable to maintain everyone's approval. Then she feels it is only a matter of time until she is exposed. She is terrified of the real MT being exposed. Rather than have the real MT exposed, she dissassociates with anyone she knows and starts over. Aside from her family, I am far and away the only person she has stayed in contact with for more than about 5 years. No friends from high school, none from college, she does not talk to anyone she use to work with from her old job. Even with her family, it is very much this way. She left home the minute she could and she tries to keep every visit with them very short.


Believe me, I've thought of that. It may in fact be true, but I doubt it simply because I've asked several times, "do you want me to file for a divorce". In fact, I've asked her if what she wants is exactly what you describe. She says no. But then, what do I do. Is she giving me the real answer, or is she telling me what she thinks I want to hear.

Either she doesn't know what she wants, or she does know it, but feels if she expresses it, she will be exposed.


No problem. Really am just trying to help.

it is the actions of WS that define them...not my words. Liars lie, cheaters cheat....are you saying that WS are not liars? Are you saying they are being moral? Do you believe that WS are not foggy?

There is no accusation..it is merely a statement of fact.

IMO,

The problem with WS "fog" is that there is no way to determine what is fog and what is not.

You really have to see someone acting in sound mind before you can allow yourself to be influenced by their probably very sophisticated defense mechanisms if you want to maintain ANY form of "reasonableness" or equitable..heck..not even equitable..PROPER distribution of responsibility.

Let's use MT as an example.

She is acting like a wayward...she is being immature, shirking accountability/personal ownership, and using passive resistance rather than saying..."I don't want this...I'll take my consequences now please."

So what..if anything...that comes out of her mouth is trustworthy or contextually accurate?

Nothing because she HERSELF doesn't know. She's saying yes and doing no..doing yes and saying no...uncooperative while proffessing to be "trying".

This is very revealing that whatever HER issues are with recovery...she hasn't owned them yet...so there isn't really anything you CAN do except kindly keep shoving them back onto her property when she hikes them over the fence.

If you say you want to come to the store..it means you want to come to the store. Maybe you want something..maybe you want her company..maybe you DO want to check up on her. All of these desires are on your side of the fence. She doesn't need to AGREE with you for your desires to be valid. Resisting them by suggesting that there is something wrong with verifying accountability is the reaction of a guilty person or one who is hanging onto independent behavior [an LB and not negotiable] with both fists and front teeth.

Neither of those attitudes are helpfull to recovery...they demonstrate an anti-recovery expectation and mindset.

Instead of trying to explain yourself [..you have only tripped over your own feet doing that for all of the years I have "known" you...this is looking for external validation..your vulnerable area] just assert that you WANT to go and don't discuss her DJs at all except to point them out when she makes an accusation based on one.

So that would look like...

"I want to go to the store with you"

"Why?! You just want to check up on me!"

"I want to go to the store with you, it is a disrespectfull judgement for you to assume you know what my motives are or what is going on in my head. I could just as easily assume that you DON'T want me to go with you because you plan to do something you know I'd object to behind my back. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to be on the level with you and say what I mean. Exactly what I mean."

Doing things in this way [while not conflict avoidant and not "nice"] WILL bring the REAL issues out into the open very quickly.

****edit**********8

Maybe your wife fears ************edit***********and she'll never be able to live up to your expectations now, so why bother?

when everything is blamed on the fog or dismissed as WS babble...the BS gets a pass on self reflection

my experience of these boards is that this is a popular position for many and i believe also why so many marriages do not recover

No WS wants to go back for more of the same.

Possibly.


FWIW, I haven't been trying to get back.


Very true.


Its a good point. I guess this basically goes back to what I said when I did a brief recap. Whatever the reason (for the lack of trust) may be, there isn't much I can do about it, nor did anyone suggest anything that says I may be "causing" it. I would have liked to hear from some of the FWS who said, "I didn't trust my BS", any ideas on what if anything could have be done.

I do find it somewhat ironic that this thread seemed to mimic in many ways the reason for my question. A lot of folks questioning the motives of others.


Sorry, with the edit I can't really follow this one.

****************Edit********

Questions or problems? Email me or Admin
JustUss2@aol.com

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Best of luck to you.

What's with the word challenge? Is the MB forum a venue for dueling? On the board I alluded to, there's plenty of criticism of wayward thinking, particularly in the wayward forum - which is for those who have earned or are earning their F. What there isn't, anywhere on the board, is long threads filled with ad hominem attacks. Refreshing.

And BSs are more than welcome to post and ask questions, which they do.


Hmm. I suspect that we differ in our terms. That's fine.


Oh! Hearsay. I suspect it's simply a case of to each his own. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Threads full of vitriol sicken me. Infidelity is bad enough without adding fuel to the fire.


Actually....I think they do try very hard to understand the thinking of the falling down drunk. The active addict wants more. AA/NA teaches that one is too many and a thousand is not enough, so abstinence is the answer - just for today. If the programs didn't attempt to understand how the mind of the addict worked, they wouldn't be successful.

PK

Actually, they don't. They already understand the mind of a drunk so there is nothing NEW or novel to be gained there; if you have heard one drunk, you have heard them all. Rather, they tell the drunk to take the cotton out of his ears and put it in his mouth. He does not know HOW to recover, he only knows how to get drunk. Listening is the key to recovery, not yapping his mouth. The blind can't lead the blind, after all.


Perhaps, I am just going by the posted WARNING that any "disrespect" to waywards will be a cause for banning. Others from this forum were quite revolted by the rampant waywardness on that forum.

I would also add that if a DRUNK doesn't shut up at AA meetings, he is escorted off the premises. He is not allowed to disrupt the meeting with incoherent ramblings.

Rprynne,

You still around? I've been thinking (always dangerous, of course) about this:


Let's assume your assessment of MT is on target. Can't you see how the fears, mindset and patterns you describe might lead her to marry you, even if she she wasn't in love with you? Subordinating her own needs and desires to meet others' expectations? But then she can't dissasociate from this relationship... because staying married is now a big part of others' expectations.

And here's the real catch-22 for her. Becoming emotionally healthy will require her to learn how to be authentic. But staying in/trying to recover her marriage will require her to behave in ways counter to her true feelings. So she sits on the fence... stuck between a rock and a hard place... seeing no positive resolution... just stuck... biding her time.

Thoughts?

--SC

Yep, still around, just been trying to stay out of a few threads that seem particularly volatile

Thinking is a good thing.


Yes, I've thought about this possibility.


Truthfully, my thoughts are that there isn't much I can do about this. You know, my offer to her is pretty straightforward. I'm not looking for recovery. I'm looking for a resolution.

I believe my WW wants to leave me, but still be friends and have my respect. That isn't going to happen without her doing 4 things. Stop lying, stop contact with OM, move home for some period of time and give M recovery a try. If she does those four things and still isn't in love with me, then off we go. I think if she does those 4 things, she will be better off.

This is kind of why I ask the trust question. I can say the above till I'm blue in the face, she doesn't believe me.

Most of what your saying probably has some applicability to my WW's sitch. But here's what I think keeps her on the fence, more than anything else. She is waiting to feel like doing it. But, she is never going to feel like doing it. I don't think anybody does. I read the thread about why did FWS return to the M, and the paradox I saw has how few of the people responded by saying I felt like doing it. The vast majority said, while I didn't feel like doing it, I did it based on principles.

IMHO, being authentic is not about acting on feelings. Being authentic is saying what you are feeling.

I don't know. I feel like I'm the one person on the planet who has said, you don't need to lie to me and I won't lie to you, yet I seem to be the person she lies to the most and trust the least.

Perplexing.

If you do think MT feels as you described, what would you suggest I do to break the log jam. Like I said, in other posts. I just go about doing the best I can, either it will happen or it won't. If it doesn't at some point I'll just move on.

"FWIW, I haven't been trying to get back."

You said this in your reply to me in regards to your wife.

What are you trying to do then?

I meant it in two ways, the first was that I'm not the one actively trying to engage my WW in conversation or talk of reconciliation. You had mentioned that may be an annoyance to her.

As an example, out of the blue about a week ago, she told me she was "thinking of moving back home". I didn't ask or bring it up.

The second way I meant it is that I am not actively doing anything i.e. a plan A or B or what not.

You may have missed my previous posts, but I listed that I was looking for a resolution.

I guess I would just like her to say what she wants. I'm indifferent to what the answer is, just want to hear it. Probably I'm just being stubborn and just feel a little like, "hey we got here, all by your demanding this and that via take it or leave it offers, why bring us to the brink and wait for me to push us over".

If you really don't care, then isn't that your answer?

I mean, if you are indifferent, then why bother entertaining the notion of putting yourself through the work of recovery should she even choose to agree to do so?

If you are indifferent, then why aren't you moving on? Even if you don't care to meet someone else right now, wouldn't it be in your best interests to put yourself in a position to where if you did, you'd be unencumbered by marriage to a woman you didn't care about? A woman who cheated on you and drove you to the point of indifference?

I just don't get the logic and suspect that perhaps you DO care, and that's ok, but if that is the case, then I don't understand why you would feign indifference.

Ah, fair point.

First off, I wouldn't feign one thing or another. Kind of shoots the whole get advice thing in the foot.

I posted in a bit of a rush last night, since I had a meeting.

The word indifferent was a poor choice. As I sit here, I can't think of a better one, so I'll try to explain.

I certainly have a preference. My preference would be to make an attempt at marital recovery. I used the word indifferent in meaning that I'm not afraid of concerned about a plan D.

I wish I could help you in a concrete way (like providing concrete examples of what you can do) but all I can do is offer insight from the FWW point of view. My situation is different in that there has never been discovery by my BS. The affair is over, no contact, NO FOG, recovering on my own and my marriage, and trying to make my marriage what it wasn’t before so I will never, ever stray again.

So, the reason your post strikes me is because I don’t trust H either and I find myself second guessing or reading into his motivations for doing or saying things, as you have said MT does with you. The big difference is that I know he hasn’t changed the way he interacts with me because he doesn’t even know about the affair. It is all me and my perceptions!

I did this to some extent (reading motivations into H’s actiona) before the affair and definitely more often and more intense after my affair. A lot of what Lexxy and SC say, explains exactly how I felt about why I do this. And I still don’t know if it is just me or if H really does have ulterior motives sometimes that even he won’t admit or recognize in himself.

Learning2Fly said of WS’s…


In my case, nothing H does is evaluated by its impact on the affair because my H doesn’t even know of the affairs existence. Yet I still doubt H’s intentions sometimes. No good answer or response accept that maybe it is a valid observation or concern of MT’s that you haven’t yet been able to see inside yourself. This is the only thread I have read of yours, and it looks like you have done a lot of introspection and work on yourself, but maybe – just maybe there could be more.

Tyk said


To Tyk, just because she never “ACTED” unhappy doesn’t mean it wasn’t so or that that wasn’t the truth. I never, ever “acted” unhappy and my H thought we had the best marriage ever, but I was extremely unhappy! I am a good actor and I have lead everyone – even those closest to me and especially H - to believe we have an awesome marriage unparalleled by any, when my reality is that I was so unhappy I was planning a D and remarriage and life with OM!!

I also recognize that I use extreme conflict avoidance and I would do almost anything to hide or avoid any conflict or even let any hint of unhappiness show through because then, I believed I was the bad wife. I was unappreciative of what I had. I was the one causing problems in the relationship. I was the bad one! So, I became an excellent pretender.

Rprynne:

Your psychoanalysis of your wife sounds like you are writing about me! Kind of scary - but in response, my desire for approval and my inauthenticity applies to H as well. I want H (and everyone else) to think I am a great wife, great mother, great, loving person when I know better (at least that is what I have told myself for so long). I think you hit the nail on the head when you say that subordinating one’s own needs for the desire to please and seek approval is not sustainable forever.

Now, I am looking inward and I see a lot of things I have to change, but until your MT looks inward, I don’t see that there is a lot that you can do about it. Probably just continue to let her know that it is safe for her to be authentic with you. I am not saying that will spur any change in her, but at least she knows she will have a safe place to work on herself. She needs to do it from within.

Your comment about asking MT if she wants a divorce and then her answering “no” but you not really knowing if she is giving the real answer. I would guess that if she really meant no, she would do the four things you have asked of her. I would also venture to say that there is a strong possibility she is saying “no” because she knows that is exactly what you want to hear and then she is still not the “bad guy” because she is saying she doesn’t want a divorce. This is exactly what I would do if my H asked me if I wanted a divorce. I would convince him I didn’t want a divorce and tell him everything I thought he wanted to hear, just so I could continue my appearance of the “dedicated, committed wife” even if that isn’t how I really felt.

And then the catch-22 that SC describes as being stuck between wanting to stay in the marriage/recover the marriage but also wanting to become healthy by learning how to be authentic seem to contradict each other and can’t coexist at the same time. My response is the same as yours,
And to your last question:


I don’t know what you can do to break the log jam. I learned the hard way and had to break the log jam myself because I realized I couldn’t continue to live like I had been for the previous 32 years of my life. It took me having an affair to realize I had a lot of work to do on me before I could accurately interpret and perceive H’s perspective without throwing my whole warped viewpoint on everything he did or said.

Sorry I took so long to say something I think you know. It isn’t you, it is her and pretty much anything you do can’t change her perceived reality. Only she can do that.

So, when are you going to be honest with your H, Norcal?

No honesty in your M = no hope for a true recovery!

The longer you choose to be honest = the more hurtful it will be to your H when he DOES find out!

You can only contribute 50% to your M - the other 50% needs to come from your H. If he doesn't know the REAL you, and doesn't know what needs of yours went unmet, then he will not know what he needs to do to fill his 50%. And the longer you wait to tell him, the more he will feel like you stole time from his life and his right to choose who to live it with from him.

Thanks for the response, do you mind if I cross-examine a bit? You say you were unhappy, yet you would never let on that you were unhappy, and you were a good enough actor to decieve everyone about it. How did you ever expect to become happy if you refused to tell your H what was wrong? What I am reading is that you were unhappy and wouldn't do what was necessary to give your husband a chance to make you happy by telling him. Its understandable that maintaining such a facade would generat a ton of resentment, but do you see how that resentment isn't caused by your H?

And that is kind of what I mean when I say that WS create thier own reality, and in doing so they create the conditions which justify (in thier minds) an affair.

And my W could feel exactly like you do/did. I appreciate the insight, I like poking into the mind of WS, its kinda like watching interviews with serial killers! (I'm joking! (kinda)):P .

I think you should tell your H the truth too. What is the point of pretending to build a good strong marriage when you have to fear that deep down inside that if your H really knew you he might not want to be with you? Give him a chance to prove you wrong, give both of you the chance to live a life based on the truth. If you love him, why would you want him to spend the rest of his life with a person that he doesn't even know? If he loves you, he will forgive you.

Lexxy responded to me further in my Post D-Day thread if you want to read what she had to say.