Agreed,

Rprynne this is a BAD idea...so much so and so obviously so that I am really and truly shocked [as in jaw dragging on the floor] that you are even considering it.

It is a bad idea from every possible position. MT has intimacy issues, character issues, maturity issues..not EN issues.

If she is unwilling to commit to the things that would allow her ENs to be satisfied or even to recognise that it is not YOUR unwillingness to meet her ENs but her own marital sadism which will not allow her satisfaction in a healthy mature and intimate relationship with ANYONE then what exactly is the point?

She has walked this cycle before...selfishly...same as always.

I would ask her 1 what's different this time and 2 why should I WANT her to come home. What's in it for ME?

If the answer is nothing..pass on it. Seriously.

rprynne, what do you WANT to happen? What more are you willing to take?

It just seems to me that this M is running out of options. Rprynne seems to be entering into a truly apathetic mindset regarding his WW, and you can't get much further from love than apathy.

If you don't allow her to come home and use that time to Plan A and observe your wife, give her a chance to be around you and see what she is missing, then how are you going to ever really know? If you deny her the chance to come home in all likelihood she is going to simply believe and accept that it is over. If you don't want her to come home, perhaps it IS over?

No, she might not be coming home for the right reasons, but Harley in his books says that this is often the case with wayward spouses. They'll come home for the kids, for the family, for the financial security, whatever. Its not great, but its a chance to really see where she's at and what she's capable of.

I have alot of respect for all the posters with a different opinion rprynne and they may in fact be right. But I don't agree and I just wanted you to know that.

Tyk,

Probably the reason you do not agree is because you are not aware of the scope of time and the Plan As that have ALREADY occurred.

Had you been along for the ride I would bet that you would agree..my .02.

In another wayward we would have the same position that you do..the beginning place [I call it]. The opportunity to make deposits. Even if they are there for the wrong reasons the are still physically present.

Right, we get it...we know why and how you feel the way you do.

MT is different. She has intimacy and character problems that go deeper than your average wayward.

PS..in FALSE recovery Harley tells the BS to RAISE THE BAR and require MORE to be willing to cooperate with a desire to come home.

That applies here precisely.

I agree - and I feel I am well protected. I mean, I've gone to great lengths to separate everything. I live on my own, no joint credit cards, no joint checking, etc. Heck we've even split up the cats. I have one she has the other. The last false recovery really hurt. I'm just not going to get invested emotionally, so I think I'm well protected.


No, this is pretty solid. Nothing will change.


I agree that respect is an issue, although MT claims it is not. FWIW, I don't take whatever she happens to throw my way.


Yeah, I wasn't real pumped up about this answer either


Its a question I will ask.

Okay, for all those that say you shouldn't agree to this, here's my thinking. My WW was already moved out, had a new job and living with OM before I knew about the A. Really, she was hardly at home for the 1.5 years before she left. I've always viewed the living apart as the second biggest problem (obviously contact with OM being the biggest), in terms of even moving in the right direction.

The two of us living in the same town has to produce some positive benefit, even if she does it for the wrong reasons. Right? At a minimum she won't be living in OM's town.

I just don't see my WW ever agreeing to "whatever it takes" while we are separated. To her, reconciliation already has too much downside, too poor of a return. If I raise the price of admission..., I don't know.

If someone can connect the dots for me, maybe I'll understand better. I just don't see how saying to her, "don't bother moving home, if your going to have that attitude" moves us closer to an attempt at recovery. Just seems to me, that doing that leaves me in the same place.

Agreeing to let her come home without any committment leaves you in the same place.

What you are not acknowledging is that nothing moves "us" closer to recovery without her cooperation.

She is part of "us" 50% in fact and 100% of her end of the deal.


You know..her IC is likely on the right path but incompletely or MT is understanding it incompletely.

MT is [as ever] looking for the magic pill..it doesn't exist. Moving home while making no preparations and no committments has nothing to do with learning how to invest in her life which was likely the whole point of the suggestion.

After all..no guru would say..climb that mountain..you'll learn about yourself and become strong wihout assuming that the person climbing would bring food, water, and shelter.

In order for the excercise to work she has to lay the foundations.

But MT is used to leaving that to someone else and having them drag her reluctantly up the mountain resenting them the whole way. She doesn't contribute anything to the climb and she doesn't get anything from it. She then determines it was pointless and futile...and for HER it was because she rejected the central objective and instead focussed on the fact that she has been physically up and then down the mountain.

Make sense?

By refusing to carry her bag FOR her she has to take responsibility for her own unwillingness and the consequences of that unwillingness. By refusing to drag her up the mountain [the old dance] she has to decide if she wants to go up it or not and HOW badly she wants to do it or not do it.

She receives the gift of self awareness by your REFUSAL to cooperate with the old dance steps.

She has chanted the mantra "I don't know what I want..I don't know what I want" for so long..the reason she doesn't know what she wants is because she hasn't had to LEARN what matters to her in order to make decisions for herself that she will bleed for and mean it.

She doesn't know who she is because her entire personality exists in fantasy...she doesn't choose and own...then she resents that loss of identity when others choose FOR her.

So don't choose for her. Leave her right where she is standing until she moves her own feet.

She needs to earn her way back into your life. It is the only way she will respect you, your marriage or herself. There has to be some struggle for her to repair what SHE has broken... for her to appreciate you as well as herself. This is basic human psychology.

It doesn't take a psychologist to figure that out. Her intimacy issues are self-induced because she puts herself first and her husband and marriage last.

When you continually look without, instead of within, you end up valuing nothing. And you are not pulling out the safety net, so she has to look within. You keep your safety net underneath her, thus preventing her from being FORCED to look within herself.

If you want a marriage with a wife who has self-respect, and who respects and values you, then stop settling for so little from her. Demand more.

Rprynne, if my daughter trashes the house, I demand that she be the one to put it back together... to clean it. She learns respect for our home, for me and for herself as she repairs what she has damaged. If I simply threw a fit and then cleaned it up myself, she would have very little respect for herself, for me, and for our home.

Doesn't that make sense to you?

I would make her earn her way into my life again, if I were you Rprynne.

The gift of self-awarness. I love that. Well said.

PS..it is not a coincidence that the WSs who have such big problems knowing who they are and what they want as long term personality traits also have BS who will accept crumbs. No coincidence at all.

Well, I took the time to read your whole story rprynne (ya, slow day at work for me! :P) Your whole situation is baffling to me. I don't understand how or really why you have allowed this to continue for so long. I guess it really has to be simply because it just doesn't bother you all that much, if it did, you wouldn't, right?

I still think that having her there is preferrable to having her gone, it gives the marriage the best chance. However, I don't think its a good chance.

Maybe, just maybe, she's coming home because she wants to, and using her counselor's advice as an excuse? It seems a pretty flimsy excuse to come home, coming from someone who has not seemed to have much interest in working on herself in the past. Who can know? I don't really see much reason for her to come home other than her wanting to, for whatever reason. Its not like you've been able to do something to make her want to in the past, I don't think anything you do or don't do has much influence on her at this point does it? So logically one must assume that she's coming home because she wants to. She doesn't have to, she doesn't need to, it isn't the easiest path for her seemingly, so for whatever reason, she wants to come and be around you. If she wants to come home to be with you, well, it could very well be just more of the same. It could be that she's trying to make the decision to come home and work on the marriage but won't allow you to be the one to set the terms?

The situation that you've had isn't sustainable, I don't know how much longer you would endure it, but at some point it isn't going to work for one of you. So what is there to lose by her coming home? You want her to come home for the right reasons, you want her to come home to commit to working on the marriage on YOUR terms, in that she wants to come and commit and really try. That's entirely reasonable for you to want that. It hasn't happened and seems unlikely to happen. Insisting that it happen that way won't make it happen, and you won't insist to the point where its either that way or no way.

So you accept crumbs. Maybe it doesn't bother you that you're accepting crumbs, I don't understand it, but its what its been. Maybe you feel you deserve crumbs for what you've done in the marriage in the past? It doesn't matter, just call it what it is and has been.
She's caching her return as casting more crumbs, a bigger crumb than you've had from her in a while, granted. If she returns, and it doesn't go well, well, she never told you she was going to commit to making it work did she? She's there to work on intimacy issues, which is fine if she means intimacy in the sense that she is trying to build an intimate relationship with you. There's a lot of work to be done before true intimacy can even be sniffed isn't there? Intimacy is a lofty goal, its really what you want to achieve too, right? If you can achieve intimacy, really, you're on the road to recovery, if not recovered. It seems doubful that all that work is what she has in mind, but, maybe?

Basically, what do you have to lose? Insisting that she return on your terms is likely to cause her not to return, right? Which is good for you in a way, for you sticking to your principles, setting boundaries, and protecting yourself, but bad for the end goal of marital recovery if doing those things right now won't give your M the best chance to recover. I understand the idea of setting the bar higher and all, but what really are the chances of her jumping higher? Less I would say than the chance of her coming home with the goal of working on intimacy issues resulting in something more.

I believe that you present a good argument for not stopping her from coming home, but in reality he can't stop her from coming home anyway. And it is this reality that may work in his favor, IF he plays it right. And that is by not dancing as he has in the past (using Noodles symbolism).

For instance she is free to come back to the town where she owns a home. Rprynne has no say in that matter, he does however have a say in how willing he is to let her back into his life, based on her unwillingness to offer him any protection whatsoever to his heart, should he (let her back in).

I would tell her she is free to live where ever she wants, but I am not willing to be her IC intimacy guiney pig.

I'd play it very, very cool until she actually had the eye opening, light bulb experience of realization that she and she alone determines her own happiness, and that her marriage is worth fighting for.

We can help Rprynne do this. But just saying, "yes, I want you to come home and work on your intimacy problems and I will be here to practice on"...well I think that will only get Rprynne more of the same as what he has been getting. It's the same dance they have been dancing, basically.

She will earn her way out of the marriage alright, which is what it sounds like the IC has in mind to me.

You and Rpynne are saying that maybe this will get her back into the marriage in sort of a back door sort of way, because of her close proximity, I think.

I personally would tell her not to call me until she plans on committing, but if this is the way you want to go with this Rprynne -


WW's rely on feelings (generated from outside sources and feelings alone. So, if you use this to your advantage Rpyrnne, by playing the game of romance (mystery, hard to get, etc)...then, perhaps.

People relying on feelings of romance to catapult them into actions mimicking intimacy (this is what governs waywards)...respond to the same. Do you see where I am giong with this? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And you may say it sounds too much like manipulation...and I say yes, yes it is.

And it just might be enough of a jolt and shock to her to get her attention.

If you go down this path, I would make her work her @rse off just to see me one time. The three time rule works for distancers and chasers (I forget the R term for this particular dynamic).

Act like you are not that excited about her coming back to town and then make her call you three times for every time you answer, and ask three times to every time you see her. (varied somewhat).

In other word, at least change YOUR steps until she has to change hers to stay in the dance with you.

Don't get me wrong weaver, I agree, rprynne should have set up and enforced some serious boundaries long ago. I also agree with him (and apparently Harley as well) that doing so likely would have had him divorced a long time ago. I don't personally think that would have been such a bad thing. However, that isn't (or hasn't been up to now) what rprynne wants or is willing to do.

What many of you are speaking of is essentially Plan B. Having rprynne state that he is willing to work to recover the M or interact with MT only when certain stipulations are met, those stipulations being that she commit to attempting recovery based primarily around MB principles. Harley has said and rprynne believes that Plan B in this case will likely lead to divorce. Perhaps that advice and feeling has changed? I don't know. All I know is that in the past rpynne has been unwilling to really roll the dice on his marriage and risk divorce. I suspect that it may be the only thing that might actually work, but he has to be ready for it, and since he isn't, I didn't see the point in pushing him in a direction he doesn't seem to want to go.

Yes, or at the very least an unwillingness to play this stupid game any longer.

I remember a year (maybe 2?), she was keeping Ryprnne on the line by telling him she couldn't come home until after March or something, when she got her company bonus.

Now he told her he would file for divorce in six months, and she comes up with a half-baked reason to keep him from it, it would seem.

Has it been six months on the clock, yet Rprynne.

In lieu of a Plan B, I would follow the plan I laid out in my last post Tyk. Did you see it?

Operating out of fear of divorce is not a way to save a marriage when dealing with someone like R's WW. IMO

Yeah, I know. Just trying to brain storm with you.

yes, I did. I think it has merit.

I will wait for the man himself to respond to our thoughts though!

Which is really why I'm not trying to drag her up the mountain. She brought up moving home. She brought up MC. I had just assumed that she would stall and I would end up filing for a D. She still may, and I still might.

This is a hard situation for me.


I know. Usually when I try and speak positively of my WW on these boards I get bashed, but here goes. Its never been about me or her M being last. Its just that its not tied for first. There is much that she has changed and been better about. But it is always limited in scope. Its always on the edges and not the big items. The big items put her at risk and she isn't going to do that.


Wow, read the whole thing? Must be a slow day. Its not that it doesn't bother me, its a matter of relativity. Our M was very dysfunctional for a long time. The current dysfunction is really not a lot more than it ever was.


Yes, this is basically my point. A fairly simple decision true. Three choices of response from me. Accept, reject or counter. Countering equals reject, so that limits it to two choices. Reject has a 100% certainty I'll be filing for a D. Accept has less than 100% certainty I'll be filing for a D. While all respones may end in me filing for a D, only one leaves any room for an alternative outcome.


Kind of, but more like close proximity is better than no proximity.


Good, I can always use the help. And I agree, the "dance" needs to be changed.


Ah, the catch with that advice from SH was keep going as long as you can. I set up my own time line, cause I just don't think I'll get to a point where I can't take it.


It was a little less than a year ago. She did in fact move home. She told me she quit her job. But a few weeks after, I was up late one night and noticed her cell phone had a message on it. I asked her to play it for me and it was message from OM. By the nature of the message, I knew it had all been a big con. She had also not quit her job, but just asked for some time off.

Anyway, at that point I knew we were getting a divorce. It was hard on me. I took some time off work, went to IC, I moved out, separated all the finances and told her to do what she wants (she still doesn't believe that, thus my orginal question). After I got moved out I told her I was going to file for divorce. She asked me for six more months, I said fine, but I'm done with the whole figuring out how we can reconcile. If she wants it, she has to figure it out.

That's where I am now.

What I have done in the interim is treat our interactions on a case by case basis. No real plan to it. If she wants to talk, and I want to talk, I talk. If she wants to see me, and I want to see her, we see each other. I said it earlier in the post, but basically I just do what I want to do. And like I said, I fully expected this six months to be the same as the last and at the end of it, she would give me some reason why she needed six more months and I would say no and file for a D.

Now, she says she's been to IC and realizes all these problems, etc. and wants to move back home. I asked her a few questions and got some of the reponses I posted about the why and no MC with SH, etc. I pointed out to her that this basically sounded like the same thing we've done before and I didn't really hear anything that changed my plans because I had serious doubts that she was actually going to do it.

As far as having a plan, I'm open to ideas. I get what your saying, sort of a modified 180, and if you have further suggesstions, I'll listen. When I think about it, what I think needs to happen (aside from the obvious) is to get MT to the negotiating table. I don't really view the latest developments as progress towards this, just not a step away from it.

Deleted after closer reading of your last post.

Are you saying that you haven't been pursuing, and you haven't really been trying to talk her into coming home, or working on the marriage?

Do you think your ambivelance or lack of pursuit may be what is prompting her to want to move home and work on her intimacy issues? Was this last six months different than the previous six months in this way?

Do you think this is a distancing/pursuit dynamic? When you distance, she pursues?

Somehow I missed this part of your story, rprynne, perhaps you could put links to your threads in your signature? I did a "search all posts" but I must have thought some were responses or something.

I was thinking about your sitution. Really, I do think you need to make one demand upon her before agreeing to interact with her re: her "intimacy issues plan", and that is to demand verifiable NC with OM. There's no point in you wasting your time and energy if she's still involved with him.

I supsect that you have more power in this marriage than you believe. The fact that she keeps coming back, even the fact that she bothers with extravagent lies, all indicates that she values you (twisted, most definitely). Really, I think MT is not that much different than any other WS, she's just taken it much further than most, and you have tolerated much more than most.

If you were willing to lay it all on the line and accept the probability of divorce, I think a really dark plan B combined with filing for D might be the most effective plan.

I would set some pretty firm deadlines for any plan you choose to implement. If it comes clear that whatever you choose to do isn't working, then change.

I disagree. Negotiating is what you do when the playing fields are even. There is nothing fair or even in this situation.

She does the work of staying your wife now. You set the demands she must meet to do that.

Continue with your plan to file for divorce in the time line you have already set. I agree with Tyk about doing a dark Plan B at that time. It probably will be the only thing that will be effective in waking her up, but more than that it will give you a chance to get over her and move on with your life.

I like Tyk's idea of proof of no contact (a no contact letter approved and mailed by you) before you will agree to see her at all when she comes to town, but even if that is met I would definitely not be very available at all to her. The three to one rule, as well as doing mostly only listening when she talks. Just listen, nodding and encouraging more talk from her, while you remain practically silent. You have no idea the power of listening in fostering positive feelings in someone else. It's highly theraputic to be able to talk in a safe environment, and she will really want to keep seeing you to talk more. The three to one rule, and keeping your mouth closed while she talks and continuing with your plans to file at the end of this six months.

If she is reading here, Rprynne, I think you might want to have us delete our posts regarding any plans you plan to follow.

While I don't think I'm the biggest threat, I'm definately in withdrawal. At least, what I can say is that while I used to mostly think I'd like to try and reconcile, now most of the time I think why bother.

This really just comes from the false recoveries.


That is my plan, unless something dramatic happens.


Not my WW. Or at least not with me. There is a part of me that thinks she is afraid to talk to me. But I don't really know how to make her feel safe.


Its hard to determine what is opposite of what I've been doing, because over the years I've tried just about everything.


She posted briefly, for a while, but that was during our first false recovery. I don't know if she reads here or not. She never mentions it. I don't think there's any reason to delete posts. In an odd way, it would probably be better if she read the suggestions.


Yes. But it comes up in more subtle ways. I sort of manage my interactions by exception. Basically, she asks for things and I either accept or reject. If she mentions doing something together next summer, I don't agree to it, because I can't. I mean I'm just trying to be honest. So I can't agree to summer plans based on the way things are now. As another example, I said I have told her I don't trust her. Occassionally she gets upset about this and wants me to trust her. So I say, you know what it would take for me to trust you and you don't want to do it.

So I don't pursue or ask her to do this or that. I just refuse to do things that aren't okay with me. But one could assume that she could translate that into me pursuing her. I don't know.

The weird thing is, I don't think she even noticed the difference. Again, sort of related to my question about trust. What I do seems to be irrelevant to her perception of what I'm doing.


Possibly. I just don't think its as simple as that. She has an objective. She may not realize what it is but she has one. She wants something from me to achieve that objective, but doesn't have to have that something from me. She may not even realize that. KWIM. I'm not saying I'm a mind reader, I'm just saying this based on her actions.