I'm just curious, what do you think her objectives are? I know its useless to speculate on the motives of a WS, but what do you think?

Just to follow up on the no contact requirement: I don't think a NC letter is enough, if she'll write one, great, but she has shown that she does not value her word. What you need is to be able to verify it in whatever manner you wish. Cell phones records, all email accounts, GPS, whatever YOU need to know that you aren't competing with someone else you need to be able to access. Her comments about trusting her are laughable given the situation.

I struggle with the links. Wasn't really much more to it than that. After it happened I took a break.


I agree with this and I am going to do this. I don't think I'll ask for a NC letter. Sending a fourth just gets absurd, IMHO. But I know the drill on verifying NC.


Power may not be the correct word, but I agree. See my comment above. She wants something. Again, related to my questions about trust. It would sure be a lot simpler if she would just tell me what that is.


Well, you can call it a plan B/D. Once I initiate contact with a lawyer, it will take six weeks to be divorced. I plan on being pretty dark during that six weeks.

As I read these posts, I'm struck by the fact that this is similar to what she already did for OM. I mean she quit her job, found a new job where he lived and moved in with him. She did this causing a lot of people a lot of hurt. It was risky, but she convinced herself to do it.

IMHO, it says a lot about sacrifice vs. investment. Going in, a difference between these two is not so much related to whether it actually gives you a return, but whether you expect it to give you a return.

She viewed leaving me as an investment and she views returning as a sacrifice.

What she wants from you could be the brain chemicals, or the feelings that make you feel inspiration to act.

When you first start dating someone that you really like, you are taken outside of yourself and catapulted into actions that you normally would not do.

For instance I get terrible panic attacks driving in traffic caused by past trauma. I never drove outside of the rural area I live in for years. I met my husband who lives in a city 5 hours away, and in order to keep dating him I had to start driving outside of this three hour area I had been limited to by the panic attacks.

I was compelled by the brain chemicals, by the desire, by the FEELINGS I got from dating him to get ourside of myself and get over the panic attacks.

Your WW is waiting for FEELINGS to take her outside of herself. She is looking outward and not inward. This is why everytime she thinks you are going to divorce her she puts the brakes on it, but then once the brakes are on she doesn't have ENOUGH of the feelings she needs to actually catapult her into real action.

You can give her these feelings by following the plan I laid out, because it will become a challenge for her to see you and this will illicit the equivelent of the brain chemicals one gets in a new romance (or affair).


However, it is not sustainable unless you make the the necessary changes that REQUIRE her to put your marriage first. Then maybe it will become a way of life for her again, or maybe for the first time, I don't know.

The other way of course would be Divorce and then perhaps providence will do the rest, and she will learn the lessons she needs to learn to be in a succesful marriage.

As a side note: The way to get someone to talk to you is to shut up. Do not judge, do not offer solutions, just listen. If it's interesting, you can add an "Wow, that is interesting" "I never knew that about you" "Yes, now I think I understand more of what you have gone through", etc.

Being a buyer requires that you not accept/agree to actions from her that are a sacrifice for her.


I would not advise agreeing with her sacrificing o come back to you...I would tell her straight up tha isn't good enough for me. ell her you'll resent the first step she takes in the door and every step afer that.

Rprnne..it is TOO MUCH to ask and somewhere inside she knows this. She knows it is too much to ask to use you as her lab rat, like a cheap and disposable tool.

If you want a recovery your best odds chance lies with a very dark plan B.

You are right..she WANTS something from you...she has an agenda...now the other part of the equation for her to intigrate is learning to also ask what YOU want and negotiate rather than selfishly demand or use.

Allowing her to be denied what she wants of you..because she wans it free of cost..allows her to realise what it means to her.

If it means very little she will let go of it rather than pay...if it means more to her she will become willing to accept the cost.

See, what MT does is HOLD OUT and wait for your resolve to fail like a little girl with her fingers in her ears and her lips pursed holding her breath. She waits for YOU to allow her to have without cost. She doesn't pay, work, own, investt, try, be responsible for..and then whines...but my life is so dissatisfying!

Those of us on the outside can see the "duh" factor quite easily but to HER and probably to YOU [after all you fit together in your patterns and habits] in the moment to moment decisions and choices I would imagine it is very counterintuitive for her to dangle a crumb and for you to refuse it utterly.

Nevertheless it is THE solution for her choice to reinvest or let go...see if she can keep both choices CLOSE she can stradle that line very confortably.

You need to be walking AWAY...making it increasingly uncomfortable to hang onto not commiting to leave or to stay..she can't continue to hang onto both indefinitely if they keep geting further apart..that's just the way it is..I didn't invent physics.

Allowing her to continue to use you like this most certainly feels more COMFORTABLE to you as evidenced by your desire to rationalize doing more of the same which has only brought you destruction and heartbreak.

If you want hings to BE different you will have to be willing to be uncomfortable.

So you will have to decide which means more to you..catch 22...because you have also been looking for the answer that doesn't cost you anyhting and will I htink discover that nothing comes without a price.

I'll answer a little bit philosophically.

Her objective - probably the same as everybody else. "Spontaneously occuring risk free happiness." I think that is what she is searching for. But that doesn't exist. Maybe it should, but it doesn't.

Her objective is to have me contribute to her happiness without her doing any work or taking any risks. I think she believes I can contribute to her happiness in one of two ways. The first, is to let her go with my approval and blessings. Most likely, she believes this objective is achievable and can be done with very little work and no risk. The second, is to provide her a good M. Most likely she believes this is not achievable, but to even try would require a lot of work and involve lots of risk.

Yes, I agree. I would assume that being okay with her moving home would make this more of a possibility.


And, yes, I agree. I am considering this very much. I often think the best thing is to just say, "look, this plan of yours sounds a whole lot like you doing something because you think I want you to, not because you want to, and that isn't going to work."

Here are my concerns.

First, if I say that to MT, she will flat refuse that is the case. She will say up and down, "no, I'm doing this because I want to". Now, if I refuse to accept that, aren't I crossing into the whole DJ territory. If I push the issue further, then she will say I'm not coming home because you don't want me to. I don't see how I get her to actually act on her own if I say anything at all.

The second, is if this is a case of getting her to "feel" like doing something, aren't my odds better with more interaction.

BTW - I really appreciate the advice. You all are making some good points

Well, YOU know it isn't possible without her being willing to take the risk.

I get the sense that the machine (you) is faltering. You admit that your feelings about reconciliation are becoming more ambivalent, that you are withdrawing. I think this is what Harley is talking about regarding the transition from Plan A to Plan B, you have to make that transition while there is still enough love for her within you to give recovery a chance should Plan B work.

Going dark will force her to make a decision, take the risk, or not. If she chooses to, you'll still have enough gas in the tank to give it a shot. If she doesn't, well, it sounds to me like you're running out of gas and you'll soon enough just file for divorce anyhow.

So really then, logically, what are the choices? Continue the same, take crumbs and let her whittle away all the love you have left for her at which point she pretty much gets the "easy" divorce because you just don't care anymore. Or do something radically different than what you've ever done, go completely dark, and force her to make the decision you've allowed her to avoid making for so long.

No, as soon as she get's you into her "he's not leaving" comfort zone her brain chemicals ease up.

You increase them by being MORE unreachable..by her having to come further and do more to get to you.

You must understand tha you aren't going to win M over with flowers and considerae household chores.

She. Has. Intimacy. Issues.

The more intimacy she has the less desire she has.

Now here is the important thing for you to recognise.

Right now she has enough desire for the marriage to come towards it but not invest..as former weaver says she's waiting to FEEL like doing it naturally..she's hoping for that hit of crack to compell her to accept tha risk and sacrifice.

If she gains intimacy with you right now she will not have enough desire to pursue her intimacy issues.

You understand what I am saying to you?

What you are perceiving as a step toward recovery is instead almost certain to stifle any possibility of it...that's why I am SO adamant in advising you to move AWAY in response to her reluctant sacrificing "I guess I'll try it but not really" step towards you.

Move OUT of her grasp..it is THIS which stimulates that brain chemical reaction..those FEELINGS she is looking for.

Now we know this isn't sustainable..but here's how you use it to your benefit.

Allow her to marinate in her chemical bath and BECOME the person she is willing to risk for.

By disallowing her to use you in this fashion you GAIN appeal [even if you can't see it..even if she looks sulking and mad..I promise promise that being something she can't have free of cost gives you value].

Then comes the clincher..she either will or will not be willing to deal with her issues.

If not it is GOOD that are are already removed and she can go chase her bliss and her brain chemicals in serial affair after serial affair.

If she IS willing after accepting that in order to obtain your cooperation she must then you have the first REAL starting point to potential recovery..just REMEMBER that with a person like MT..distance = pursuit and pursuit = withdrawl.

You can use this to help yourself if you will overocme your fear and your OWN habit to setle for crumbs.

PS Tyk is correct that she is wearing you down to give her tha costless divorce with your approval and blessing [or at least apathy which is close enough for her to shirk responsibility].

Aren't you people supposed to form a consensus? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Well, it wasn't yesterday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I get what you are saying. I understand the big picture you are painting. I'm not sure MT is wired that way, but maybe you're right. I just have serious doubts that the path your describing is the best one.

You are making a good arguement. You are talking about raising my value in her eyes to make it worth the cost. But for raising my value by raising the cost to work, the former has to grow faster than the latter. I just don't know if that's possible since MT seems to be more motivated by avoiding costs rather than getting value.

I'm just not so sure that it doesn't work better in the short term to lower her costs, even if that means a decrease in my value. Which based on how I understand what you're saying, is essentially what happens if I'm okay with her moving home.

Does that make sense?

I understand what you are saying and frankly I think it's the crux of plan A..which doesn't work with M because if she can have it she doesn't want it and if she has to work for it she doesn't want it..lol.

What you described above which I quoted is basically a plan doomed to failure structurally. In which case what you should do is STILL pursue the path I described and let her choose to go if she's unwilling to stay and work.

That's not approval or condonement just acceptance of reality...you can't MAKE the free lunch she is hoping for a reality...it doesn't exist outside of infatuation stage nonintimate romance.

And THAT is the only thing she'd be motivated to work for.

WEll..do the math..she will either have to change what she wants or go pursue her lust..no other options..you DEvaluing yourself will not help in EITHER case.

What happens if you are OK with her moving home means that she is free to use you until she finds a better option and lacking that infatuation she WILL be looking for a better option.

We have formed a consensus. We are all basically saying the same thing.

MT is not adverse to paying a high cost if the prize is what she wants. She paid a very high cost to go to OM, but because it was such a cost, she paid it.

When I go to a store and everything is really cheap, I don't normally want any of it. I'll go to an expensive store, site an item that is high dollar and of high value and go home and figure out how I am going to get it. It may even be the same as the item at the discount store, but because it was so affordable to me, I didn't want it.



Lowering the price of admission is the absolute WORST mistake you could make right now.

She is not unique to any other commitment phobic, to any other wayward, or to any other distancer/pursuer...

She will fight for what she wants, provided it is invoking the right kinds of feelings in her.

She is operating by feelings. If you don't recognize that and try to handle this with your operation of logic, it will not illicit the feelings she needs to have in order to want to fight for your marriage.

She has to be the one to fight now. And if you don't allow her to struggle to win you back, then you are not changing your dance steps.

Yes! JJ...

Especially this

Thanks everyone for the advice. I've basically decided that I am going to have to make some additional requirements before agreeing to my WW moving home, which will probably mean she won't be doing it.

Aside from all the other good reasons, for me, it just comes down to my opinion that working on marital recovery is not a way to address her intimacy issues. She needs to fix that first. Until she does, we'd just be spinning our wheels.

Not really sure yet how I'm going to go about doing this, so any tips are greatly appreciated.

The other thing I have decided is to drop my demand that she make an attempt at marital recovery in order for us to part as friends. As I've thought more about this, I've realized that what I want, in order for us to part as friends is for her to just "own" what she did. While that would certainly be a part of marital recovery, she can do that without attempting marital recovery. I guess I just can't forgive someone if they won't acknowledge what they did.

Do you have any intention of even being her friend if you get divorced? Why? I mean, the tolerance of poor behavior amongst friends is even less than that tolerated between spouses, simply because there's less at stake. Would you associate with any person other than MT that had put you through this pain? I suspect the whole "friends" thing on her part is really just the product of a wayward mindset, its allowed her to NOT file for divorce herself.

Working on her intimacy issues within the framework of working toward marital recovery makes sense, outside of attempting to work on the marriage it doesn't make sense for you to involve yourself further in her intimacy issues, which you are pretty well schooled in by now, so yes I agree.

I would work on preparing a Plan B letter for her, expressing that you still hope to recover the marriage and what you need from her in order to be willing to attempt it. So, what would you need? Verifiable no contact, moving home, IC and MC? A committment to honesty? Really, the first two is probably what's absolutely essential in order for you to be willing to put out any more effort. Until she agrees to meet your needs, there's not much to talk about as you have determined that without those basic things there is no chance of success.

I really don't know either way. What I do know, is that I wouldn't have anything to do with her if it ended like it is now. What I mean is, its not that my WW is what I will call a classic "unrepentent" WS. She says it was her choice, she agrees the A was wrong, she agrees she shouldn't have done it, etc. But, she more less also says that the A didn't matter. Didn't affect the way she treated me, didn't affect whether she wanted a divorce, didn't take any effort on her part, etc. She more less acts like both are lives would be exactly the same as they are now if she had not had an A. That's just not true. Maybe for her, but not for me. I don't know why this bothers me, but it does. Its like someone stabbing you in the chest, and saying yeah I stabbed you, but I don't see why it would hurt.


Possibly, but you would have to say more. I don't really follow you here. The simplest way I can describe what I think she means by the "friends" thing is that she doesn't want me to hate her and doesn't want their to be no contact between us ever again.


I doubt I'll do it in a letter, and I don't plan on doing a plan B. All the things you listed would be requirements. However, I would rank the committment to honesty as the most important.

What do you plan on doing?

What I mean about the friends thing is that she seems to be somehow using it as a barrier to divorce. "I would get a divorce if I knew we would be friends", and you have denied her this, rightfully so imo as I wouldn't agree to be friends with her either. It would be interesting to hear what she thinks the key components of friendship are.

See, she's not treating you in any way that should make you want to be her friend, even now. Friendship carries with it some responsibilities and obligations too. How many friends do you have that lie to you about important things? How many friends does SHE have that she lies to all the time, or that lie to her?

You two can't be friends because there's nothing friendly about the way she treats you. If she treated you as a friend, there might be more hope for the marriage.

And ya, the stuff about the A not impacting the marriage, amazing to imagine the world she inhabits isn't it?

Rprynne, without knowing her or ever talking to her, everything you have just described is the epitamy of selfishness.

She is not able to even to put herself in your shoes long enough to imagine the pain she has caused.

And to expect you to sit there waiting for her is the most unloving thing I can think of. She doesn't even love you enough to want you to move on and find a woman who will live with you and love you.

She is most definitely a classic wayward mentality.

I'm sorry, I know it upsets you to have people here speak ill of her, but my gosh. Can't you see how wrong what she is doing is?

I don't know how to make someone care enough about another that they would at the very least, let them go.

IF I were you I'd tell her that she is free to live where ever she wants, but you are not even close to being interested.

And then let her do ALL the work, make all the offers and do some serious chasing.


You don't really even need to tell her what is needed to accept her back. She was on MB long enough and you have been through this with her before.

She is not a helpless child.

She knows the drill. She knows the drill. Believe me, she knows the drill. Give her a few months to think about it and I bet she comes up with exactly what you need to consider another recovery attempt.

You said she needed something from you, but you didn't know what, that even she probably didn't know what.

We said it was the chemical high from the challange of winning you back...

And what if, what if Rprynne, what she needs from you is to expect more from her?

Men tend to marry and stay with women who expect them to be good men.

Maybe she needs you to expect more from her.

Telling her I don't think its a good idea for her to move home. That while I can't stop her, its not what I want. Where I go from there, I'll have to figure out.


Yes you are correct. The part I was confused about was the friends thing being part of the wayward mindset. I don't think I've seen a lot on that before.


Consciously, I think she gets the classic components. Sub-conciously, its very clouded with a bunch of conflict avoidance, passive agressive, stuff. I've posted about this earlier in this thread.


I posted about this earlier, too. She lies all the time to all her friends and family. It is about saying what they want to hear. I don't know why, but she does not feel she has the right to say what she wants, so she says what people want to hear.


Yes, I see what she is doing is wrong. I feel great sadness for her. She is not an evil person. She has lost her way. I just want her to find her way and be happy. I'm not a martyr (sp?) nor trying to be a white knight. I'll probably get a 2x4, but I have been through harder things. I just feel like keeping up the effort a little longer.