I have been through 3 divorces. My third marriage lasted under a year. We were together for a period of about 2 years or so. I have 3 children and she has 2 children. I accepted her children as my own and my children were very close to her and her children as well.

I did not engage in any form of abuse or affairs or otherwise. The marriage was ended abruptly and without explanation and we have not spoken since (at her refusal to communicate). I begged her to keep communications open, to at least let the kids stay talking and eventually I begged her just to tell me they were ok and she wouldn't.

After she ended the marriage, I was so hurt by the way that she did it and that I wasn't even allowed to tell the kids bye, etc. that I lashed out and blogged openly about what she was doing and what we were going through online (names, photos and all).

Here I am about a year later. I remain crushed that I have not been able to speak to or see my step children. Before we married, I explained how my children had been abandoned by their mother and their step mother and that I was hesitant to mix the children. She assured me that divorce wasn't an option and that even if we did she wouldn't do that to my children. Of course that's where we stand today.

I do have someone who has access to the children who sends me updates and an occassional picture of them so I know they are ok. She has offered to get a message to the boys for me, but I've asked her not to contact them now. I have preserved every text message, e-mail, etc. that I sent begging their mother not to shut me out, not to turn her back on my children, not to prevent the children from communicating with each other and eventually my request just to know how they are doing. I have journaled extensively and kept detailed records and accounts of how I'm feeling and how much I miss them. I will send them both a copy of this information after they turn 18. I want them to know that I didn't want to leave them and certainly didn't want to turn my back on them.

Their mother and I haven't really spoken since we separated and ultimately divorced. I have written repeatedly and gotten no replies.

I eventually retained an attorney to pursue property settlement and I also sued one of her family members because he did not pay my final pay check when I was working for him (I tried to resolve that directly first too and only upon his refusal to even respond or communicate did I eventually force the issue through court).

I even hired an attorney to determine whether or not we could pursue step parent rights. He thinks we can, but $8,000 later and almost a year into it, he says I have 20 - 25% chance of winning and it would like require appeals and take 3 - 5 years to work through. I have decided that too much harm would be done in that time frame and so decided not to pursue it.

At this point, I don't forsee my 3rd wife ever having a change of heart or letting me see the step children or even know how they are doing. I regret many of the ways I responded after she chose to end the marriage, but I cannot undo what has been done.

I feel like part of my life is completely missing (the children). I have always loved children and was very close to her children and accepted them as if they were my own. It's a year later and I still cry regularly over the situation despite throwing money at the best therapy and counselors money could buy.

I'm at a loss at this point as to whether the way I'm feeling is even reasonable. I have no legal rights to see the kids and as such I think it would be improper for me to allow my friend to even get a message to them no matter how badly I want to.

I simply don't know what to do anymore. I feel so broken. I'm completely okay with the marriage being over with. I do have fond memories of the woman I believed my 3rd wife to be and some of the great times we shared. I also have an intense anger and can't stand the person I realize she truly is. I cannot imagine any parent refusing to allow step brothers who are very close to even talk (and understand I've gone out of my way to offer and try to faciliate that in such a way that she wouldn't have to deal with me or speak with me or otherwise so as to eliminate any possibility she would believe that I was trying to get to her or manipulate the situation).

I simply don't know what to do anymore. I feel so broken. I wish I could just forget them or turn my back and give up but I simply can't. I pray all the time about it. I pray for changes. I pray for healing for me. I pray sometimes that I could just forget them. I pray sometimes that I would fall to sleep and not even wake up.

I cannot begin to describe how it feels to lose children. I have had more than one counselor now assess the situation by saying the grief that I was going through was the same or worse than the grief that parents go through when a child dies. One of them put it best when they said it would be harder on me because I had to not only deal with the loss but I had to know each day that it was done deliberately by someone at the expense of the children.

I just feel broken <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Any thoughts or advice would be truly appreciated.

The same thing happened to me - only it was my blood children she hatefully and vindictivelly turned against me.
Your stepchildren - depending on how close you were to them - will eventually seek you out.
My 2 boys searched for me about 6 years after my ex-wife cut all communication with them away from me. Now she can do nothing about it coz they're over 18 now.
I can only say that there is hope, but it's going to be a long road. Give it time. People who lie and are vindictive eventually have all their EVILs return and crash back on them... just takes time. Be patient.
and God bless,
Harold

thirddivorce,

Did she tell you WHY she was divorcing you? I have deep sympathy for you. My best friend abruptly quit talking to me - literally would just stare at me when I would ask her what is wrong. I know this isn't like a wife, but I do think I can relate to your pain. Ten years later I messaged her on classmates.com and she actually replied. I didn't have the nerve to ask - had figured it out myself by then. But, we met and there was this thing hanging over us and it was clear she didn't want to continue a friendship. Just to satisfy your curiosity, I got a job she thought she was going to get. I had seniority and was fully trained for it already. Can you imagine that she was so blind with jealousy that she would completely shut me out over it, ten years into a friendship? People do these things because they're ashamed to admit that they have these negative feelings - it acts like a reflection back to them that they are somehow deficient and they aren't equipped to deal with it.

Anyway, I wanted to share with you the feelings I'm having as I'm reading your post. I want you to know that I'm sharing this with you, because we all have parts of ourselves that we can't see. In my case, I couldn't see that my friend was terribly jealous that she had been the 'blonde bomb shell' in high school and afterward I blossomed into a beautiful, thin brunette, while she got pregnant and overweight out of wedlock. I had no idea the pain this caused her - that by doing nothing but blossoming I was causing her pain. I sensed it and did things to prove my love and loyalty to her and her beautiful son, but I couldn't change the way I made her feel. It really wasn't my problem. But, I loved her and that didn't matter.

The feeling I get when reading your post is that you may love so deeply, so largely that you consume the type of women you choose. It could just be a difference in temperament. You can get a temperament test done through the National Christian Counselor's Association - they can probably direct you to a member in your area. The feeling I get from you reminds me of this type of temperament that is very big on love and all the things that go along with it, whereas there are temperaments that don't need to express quite so much and are every bit as loving as you. Those types of temperaments would feel smothered by you and they wouldn't understand it, so they wouldn't know why they're feeling the way they are. I would say the remedy to your problem would be to find out what that temperament is (I think it's sanguine compulsive). Temperaments are the parts of ourselves that we can't change - it's who we are, it's what makes us different. All we can do is understand it so we can understand that others are different and we can make adjustments to promote peace and harmony.

I think what's happening to you is these women you meet are so bowled over by how wonderfully you naturally love and care for the women and children in your life that they are instantly and deeply attracted to you. But, their natural temperament isn't the same, so after a while they feel smothered and full and have to get away to rest. Since naturally you approach that situation to love more, more intensely, better, whatever, it's like you're feeding them a wonderful lobster dinner after they've just finished three full plates, every night of the week for two years. They can't possibly enjoy another, and actually have developed an aversion to the dish. So, the last thing in the world they want is another lobster dinner. Do you see what I mean?

There isn't anything wrong with you or them, it's just a mismatch or misunderstanding in temperament. We choose each other based on social elements, but when we marry, we live more in the area of decision and control and that part of the relationship isn't developed until after there's a commitment.

Another possibility could be that you are placing the women in your life on too high a pedestal. It's as though you are making them so very important in your life that you become so deeply enmeshed that your well-being is ultra-dependent on their well-being. Then when the woman is not feeling top notch, she feels an additional responsibility or burden to feel better for you, knowing she is bringing you down. Some people would say that you are putting your woman in the position that only God should hold. Dare I say that you are idolizing your women and children? Please don't be offended and do glean what you can from what I am saying.

I work with a man who waited until his late forties to marry and sadly, his divorce was final on the date of his first anniversary. He is very handsome, he's a really decent man, but when I'm around him, I feel responsible for the outcome of the exchange - I always feel I've done something wrong. I feel I talked too much, too little, not concise enough, not technical enough, not intelligent enough, not nice enough, and when I compliment him he doesn't believe me. He's the only man who's ever made me feel this thoroughly inadequate. And he's a great guy! He doesn't criticize, he's patient, he's helpful, he's smart - I just don't get it. Other than that I sense he subconsciously places WAY too much emphasis on the value of others in his life and not on an independent inherent value in himself. So, he keeps getting rejected. His wife did to him exactly what you've described.

I don't know if any of this helps you, but I hope it at least gives you some food for thought. I think you are just so comfortable loving, caring, giving, being affectionate - doing the love thing so masterfully that you may be arousing in others a sense of futility that they can't keep up. It might help you to explore the ways that love loves by letting live, letting free. Love thrives within the context of freedom - the freedom to love or to not love. Dr. Harley teaches this.

My humble opinion as you requested.

I wish you peace.

What would psychologists say about this subject I wonder? My ex lived with a woman who had two young girls. He left and never saw them again. I wondered how he could be so "cold" to not even talk about them or seem to care to see them. On the other hand I felt that it wasn't "proper" for him to contact them, he wasn't their dad, he was a father figure for a time in their lives, that's all. To me it wouldn't seem healthy for him to continue to play a role in their lives, especially since he was dating and then remarried. I'm not sure what the real impact is on children, what their ages are and if contact with you or other men in similar situations would be good or bad... certainly the best interested of the children are more important then your own. I'm sorry for children who go through split homes repeatedly as these children have. It must be very confusing for them and I wonder if in the future, as adults if they'll have trouble in their own relationships. Who knows what she's told them about you, has she bad mouthed you to them? They are her children, and I'm thinking I'd on one hand feel the same as her, I wouldn't want them to have contact after a divorce especially if there's no contact between the two of you. I can't imagine any attorney - other then one lying - would be able to grant you rights to her children. There are no rights, that's just how it is. Can you focus more on your own children and try to heal from this rather then hire attorneys and fight for something that likely isn't going to happen? The more you fight or threaten your ex, the more she's going to want to protect her children from you and want no contact. Sorry.

Hi 3D,

I don't have any advice. Just letting you know I feel for you and your situation.

Prayers,
Jo

Disabling the apparatus of unilateral divorce and the carnage it spread across this land is essential. Lowering the massive female filed unilateral divorce epidemic in the church is step one.
The church is complicit in the destruction of the family through supporting unilateral divorce by providing succor to a 2/3 to 3/4 female initialed no fault divorce rate in church.

I'm pretty sure Jesus would assess the situation on a case by case basis.

Are you a Pharisee?

Warrior,

That's a very interesting thought and not one that I've considered thouroughly.

In my third marriage, I was never given a reason. My initial reaction is that you are right about me but that it wasn't an issue in the 3rd marriage but I'd have to give it more thought. I have analyzed and over analyzed my third marriage to no end and the sad reality is I will probably never know.

I have my times when I think it wasn't her fault. She had a hysterectomy just prior to getting married and after we married the change in her was like night and day. I'm not sure if it was a reaction to me in some way or a harmone change. Her attitude towards her own children changed as well. I watched her scream at them in ways I had never seen before and that seemed out of character for her. It doesn't mean it wasn't there before and I just didn't see signs of it, but that's one theory I have.

Then there's the fact that we married and a few days later she wanted her name on all of my accounts, investments, etc. (things I had before we married). I tried to discuss my concerns and reluctance and it was immediately dismissed as though I didn't trust her. Then she quit her job a month later (something we discussed before marriage that she would work for a year and pay off her debts before she quit and went home to care for her kids, my income was sufficient to support us as a family but not also sufficient to pay down her pre-existing debts and support the family in a comfortable way). Within a few months, she would go weeks without speaking to me and no effort I made to try to turn that around produced any change. Then of all things in the single counseling appointment we had her first complaint was that I didnt' communicate with her. I spoke freely and told how burdened I felt by the silent treatment and the fact that I could go weeks without her speaking to me or offering a hug or anything. The counselor asked her if that was true and she admitted and then tried to talk with her about how poisoness that would be to the relationship. The only other complaint that she mentioned in that session was that I was "ambitious" when she met me.

I don't know what that meant. I had business dreams but as I tried to discuss them with her, she shot them down. I tried to work on business (internet programming/consulting) and she complained directly to me that I spent too much time on the computer (very early into the marriage) so I immediately abandoned that and reduced my computer use to a few hours per week. I talked about building a house for us and she didn't want to. I talked about buying land for us and her kids that was larger and would accommodate their 4 wheelers and had bayou frontage (she loves to boat) and she didn't want to. I talked about building an apartment unit (4 family housing unit) and she didn't want to. I was studying pre-law and talked about going to law school but when she complained that I wasn't home enough I discussed with her slowing down my schooling or stopping it altogether to be there with her and the kids.

After she shut down every dream I had and every ambition that I had, I tried to search for something we could do jointly and nothing happened. I'm not sure what she expected with regards to ambition. Everyone one of those things were things I discussed with her before we got married as things I wanted to do. she never objected then and after we married and she objected, she then said "I used to be ambitious" as a complaint about me.

She demanded a few weeks into our marriage that I reduce my retirement contributions so we could have more spending money. Now all of our bills were paid, we could buy things for the kids and had money to spend on extras, eat out, etc. I had told her several times before we got married about my retirement planning, my savings goals, my progress and my expectations.

So part of me thinks it was a money thing and nothing else, someone to support her and her kids and when she realized she wouldn't get her name on my meager savings and investments I held prior to being married there was no reason to keep me around anymore. Even the counselor noted that for the single session we went to, no matter where the counselor tried to bring us, everything kept going back to money.

Horsey,

As to the children, I expressed a great deal of caution when we started dating. I told her the hurt my children had been through. I told her I didn't want to mix them or even introduce them until we were sure because they had been through 2 divorces prior. I got one assurance after another that she wasn't like that and would never turn her back on the kids.

Later as we begin to mix the kids, I told her that I didn't marry lightly and that I was marrying her children as much as I was marrying her. She had them call me Dad from day 1. I had already expressed to her (because we talked about that before we married) that my opinion was that I would never replace their dad but that if they wanted to call me that I was okay with it. I explained to her that I didn't think they should be told or expected to call me dad and that Mr. Name was fine with me if that was more comfortable for them. I don't know that she forced them but I found it ironic from the moment we exchanged vows both of the children immediately referred to me as dad.

So the question is, if you don't want some man in your children's lives, why remarry at all? I know that this move was a deliberate and vindictive move that was directed at me specifically. When her ex husband broke up with his fiance she immediately extended the offer for her to stay in contact with the kids because the kids liked her. a week earlier when my wife was telling me she wanted me to leave, the boys were crying and begging her not to do that. The older boy even asked her if the counselor could help us (he has seen the counselor too and knows her by name). This should never have happened in front of the kids.

But remember, in the end, my final request was not even to be allowed to visit them but jsut for her to update me every so often a to how they are doing.

She went to the church I attend to complain about my blogged. the church asked me if I would take down the blog for peace and I agreed. They asked her if she would at least periodically update me on the status of the kids (not let me see them or talk to them), she refused and never showed up to church again after that.

My only response Horsey is that this impacts the kids far more than anyone can realize. I believe that a step father that has lived with the children full time and cared for them for any length of time should be given the same rights to visitation in the best interest of the children. When children call someone Dad for a period of time, it is equally emotionally damanging to the children to be deprived of that relationship as it would be to deprive them of the relationship to a biological dad. I would not object to providing support as well (I know this is a controversial topic, but I would not have gone into that marriage if I did not reach a point where I loved the kids as if they are my own). At the very least, anyone marrying into a family with existing kids should be required to opt in advance to be recognized with parental rights and responsibilities (visitation and support) with some limitations of course before getting into that marriage.

It is simply not fair that the courts recognize a right to visitation and relationship with children as a mere result of biological connection and do not recognie a right to visitation and relationship with the children based on the best interest of the children and an existing relationship and the likelihood to do damage and harm to the children if it is abruptly terminated.

Those kids who had 3 step brothers were very close to each other. they loved every minute that they got to spend together and got along very well. They asked about them repeatedly. In church one day after the split when she was still attending, her boys were trying to waive at my boys from across the church and she push their hands down and tried to stop them from waiving at them. These are children we're talking about. they don't understand what is going on.

It's a year later and my kids still ask about them and when and if they'll ever get to see them and talk about how much they miss them and how unfair they think it is. I try not to bring it up or show my pain as I want to facilitate my children towards healing, but its near impossible when they start talking about something they miss or wish would happen and despite my best efforts I have tears rolling down my cheaks because I feel the pain my children are going through.

I blame myself for the pain my children have endurred. But I can't undo it and I can't undo the way I feel about her children and the way I miss them.

Anyway, you've both given me some more things to think about. I wish I could stop thinking about it and analyzing it, but time isn't healing it, the wounds are getting worse and deeper as I watch my children struggle with it and as I cannot erase or ignore how I feel. I keep telling myself that time will heal, but it feels like time is moving backwards right now.

Your opinions, good and critical are appreciated.

Disabling the apparatus of unilateral divorce and the carnage it spread across this land is essential. Lowering the massive MALE filed unilateral divorce epidemic in the church is step one.

The church is complicit in the destruction of the family through supporting unilateral divorce by providing succor to a 2/3 to 3/4 MALE initialed no fault divorce rate in church.

Gander Goose thingie there, Divorce_Church. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

"She had them call me Dad from day 1.."

Wasn't this "strange" to you? As a good caring father wouldn't you have wondered about "her" as a mother? If she would tell her kids to call you "dad" from the start. A "normal" woman would be protective of her kids, you were divorced twice, she would have wanted to take it slow with you to make sure you were "ok" before sharing her kids with you. When did her "caring" start, that she was defensive about her children with you? When did she not like it when they called you daddy? This calling you daddy on day one should have been a serious red flag, don't you think?

You say you "expressed" that you wanted to "take it slow" but did you? Perhaps you were just "dreaming" in some magical world that you could fix your past with a new marriage, and all would be "ok." And you were happy to quickly slip into the world of playing daddy to someone else's children.

I haven't dated yet, not sure I ever will. But I know that no man will even come near by boy without some long term dating first. This isn't a world where we can quickly trust anyone that we meet in church or anywhere. And if someone's been divorced or has baggage the more wary we need to be - at the very least the more we need to take out time. Anyone that pushes their way into a "quick relationship" like this having children call someone "daddy" on day one likely has problems. You and her are both responsible for lacking boundaries from the start it appears from what you are saying. Healthy boundaries or not, she's putting them up saying that you can't see the kids. Sorry you hurt but it doesn't appear that there is anything you can do here other then move on and address your own issues rather then her's.

It's call codependency when we continue and continue to work on someone else's issues, especially when we aren't with them any longer don't you think? I can't be one to talk here... we know that. You say you "talked" about caution with her kids, but then you didn't stand behind those boundaries you set. We all hope for the best when we get married, especially with kids involved. Don't you think? However codependents rush into situations over and over with the same results. Thus my latest readings... codependency and boundaries. Sorry you feel that you are moving backwards. I hope you can find some way to explain to your children you are sorry about this, that it's over and you all need to get on with your lives. Perhaps there's a sentence you can repeat to them and yourself to "stop" the obsessive thoughts about her and her kids. There's a future for you, but not if you are stuck in the past.

Sorry, I don't think my response was clear...

Let me back up a little and fill in some blanks for you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My third wife and I worked together so we knew each other for a period of time before we were dating. When we started dating, I met her children pretty early on. But they knew me as Mr. Scott and as their mother's friend or boyfriend, not as Dad.

My third wife wanted to meet my children but I delayed that for several months. When she did meet them, it was just "this is Dad's friend, Ms. XXXX." It stayed that way for months. She was anxious to let the children meet each other but I did take that slow and held off for quite some time. It was not until after we had been seeing each other for a while and the topic of marriage came up before the kids met each other.

They hit it off right away.

The "from day one" should have read that when we got married, they began calling me Dad even before we left the reception hall. I found it odd that both of them suddenly and instantly started calling me Dad, but that was after we were married and it wasn't a big deal to me at that point, we were married.

We had already discussed the topic and I told her that my preference would be to allow the children to continue to call me Mr. Scott and at whatever point they wanted to call me Dad (if that time ever came) that they would by their own choice and free will. I don't think she insisted that they call me Dad, but I do believe she suggested it to them or told them that I would like it or in some other way put the idea in their head. I just found it ironic that it happened so instantly.

I told her that I WOULD NOT require my children to call her Mom. I told her that they were welcome to if they wanted or decided to but that I was okay with them referring to her as Ms. XXXX even after we were married. I explained that I expected them to be respectful but that I felt it was wrong to insist or force kids to call the step parent Mom or Dad. I've seen people do that and it just doesn't sit right with me.

We dated for just short of 2 years before we married. I didn't feel like it was quick or rushed. I do know it was slower than she wanted. At one point she broke up with me very briefly because she felt I was moving too slow. I didn't change my pace when we got back together. There were certain things I decided in advance and told her about and those were take it or leave it items (moving slower, not mixing the kids until we knew things were very serious, etc.).

Anyway, I appreciate the thoughts none the less, but I don't think I explained well some of the particulars.

As to dating, I have tried but I'm clearly not ready. Both my first ex and second ex expressed interest shortly after the marriage ended. I laid down ground rules right up front, essentially that we had to start over, get to know each other, no sex, and unlikely to remarry anytime soon. Both of them wanted to rush and remarry and lost interest very quick. That was fine because I wasn't ready at that point (it was very recent to my separation).

One of my third ex friends pursued me for a little bit but I just brushed that off from the start.

I then later felt I might be ready and met someone. She was nothing but wonderful to me, patient, etc. but I realized a month or two into that she was way further along than I was (dropping hints about marriage) and I wasn't to a point where I could see her as much more than a good friend. I ended it because I had already done too much harm and didn't want to hurt her more. While I knew it would be painful to her to lose me, I figured it would be more painful if I let it go and then later had to say I just wasn't ready. Everything we did together was a reminder of my third ex or reminding me of pain or whatever. It didn't take me long to realize I'm no where near ready.

See, I think that's my risk. As we've talked before about the rescuer role that I get myself into which has been nothing but trouble for me in the past. I am incredibly attracted to a woman who is willing to pursue the man she wants. And that puts me at major risk for falling right back into that trap again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So I am just single. I hurt so much in my little dating episode that I wonder in some ways if I will ever remarry or even seriously date for that matter. I've progressed in some ways since my marriage ended but emotionally I don't feel like I've progressed one inch.

I wonder about Pain and Suffering...

If somehow we remain "stuck" in the Pain of Life because we have lessons to learn? If there wasn't intense pain would God allow us to really learn and grow?

The pain of separation and divorce is the worst, it's like death but it doesn't go away because the person is still living, so are their kids. It's not the "answer" to anything.

It would be nice to "just move on" as friends will tell you. Just date again, meet someone new, it's not you...

I just read a book about how we can look at the past, decide what we were responsible for, what the other was, forgive, look at our own faults and work on them - work hard on what we can improve on so that we are moving forward...

It does seem helpful to outline what wife did wrong, what husband did wrong, then figure out your weaknesses and work hard on bettering yourself. After three divorces I'm not so sure the "answer" is to date or even worry about remarrying as much as it would be to REALLY work on your relationship with God, yourself and be the person God wants you to be BEFORE another relationship.

I'm starting to think that hurt - and even long term hurt - is for a reason. It's God telling us to really humble ourselves, to really listen, to really better ourselves - before just moving on if we've had mistakes in the past. Yes we are told to not stay stuck and that forgiveness is key - and until we can do that, and really mean it, and heal, then we are in limbo it seems...

Sorry I stated what I did, I forgot some details of what you'd said before. I wasn't being helpful. I'm sorry you are filled with so much hurt, and as you know that hurt until healed will fester and fester and you'll have a hard time with a new relationship. Are you still seeing your Christian counselor? How about the theme of forgiveness and moving on with him? And becoming a better man of God? And healing?

My impression is she indeed did marry you for someone to take care of the financial load for her and probably didn't love you, at least not in the true sense. She sounds like someone too self-absorbed for that (I know someone like that). So I wouldn't beat myself up too much over that part.

However, the fact that you're thrice-divorced sends up all kinds of red flags for me. Not that you're a bad person or anything, but that you likely have certain habits and needs and shortcomings that keep you coming back to the same trough. My brother did that; picked the exact 'same' girl every time and got torn to bits every time; he's just lucky he met the right kind of girl eventually, who was strong and smart enough to see past his problems and work with the rest of him.

If I were you, I wouldn't even entertain the thought of dating until you've worked everything out; you'll just make the same mistake. You definitely sound a little too invested in your emotions. I mean, it's good that you're in touch with your feelings, but a year later, you sound awfully heartsick over kids you knew only a few years. No offense, it just seems a little...too intense. I can see in that the previous poster's comment about probably suffocating the people you care about.

Do you read? I believe in educating oneself to avoid such errors - through counseling, too, but that's only so much. Also start reading, even stuff you think won't apply to you. Become a student of psychology, so to speak, until you start developing a keen sense of what makes people tick. Maybe you'll start unraveling all of your mysteries.

It'll also make you a better father for your own kids.

That's what my next "project" is in my path to person growth. To stop lying to myself, really analyze my flaws and work on them. Since I'm a business person I'm going to make a list of books and resources to go with this theme. I've spent a lot of time picking someone else apart rather then myself.

Boundaries is my start. Learning to read situations and people better. Learning how create boundaries. In doing that we'll feel less like "victims" even in the dating stages, long before marriage.

There's really good Christian books about personality types, there's even one by the same authors of Boundaries about Safe People, giving us insight and some skills into seeing others flaws that perhaps we don't want to see. Knowledge however is power.

And emotions. How do we gain emotional intelligence. Perhaps we really excell in business but emotions and relationships we can't handle? Then what are the books and resources, and counseling for that?

Healing/blaming/not forgiving? How to get beyond being "stuck" and move on? Resources, resources and counseling, and wisdom.

i again thirddivorce,

I'm so glad to hear more of your story. It sounds a bit like my recently destroyed marriage. I was so very careful in choosing my ex. He put pressure on me from the beginning and I resisted and told him I would continue to resist until he backed off. I wouldn't even let him hold my hand. I took a good deal of time getting to know him as well as a person can. I took even more care to be sure he understood who I was, flaws and all, my ambitions, my dreams, etc. He seemed to agree with everything and shared the same in return.

Then after we were married, I was pregnant very soon, I would do the normal loving healthy thing to move close to him and be intimate - the emotional kind that preceeds the deeper physical part and he would pick fights with me. The closer I tried to get, the more he would distract and evade. Months and years into our relationship it began to appear that I was to "put up and shut up", although I was never told this in words. He dragged me through life on his own unilateral decisions, leaving me to constantly have to deal with extreme emotions due to neglect and hurt.

I have since learned about personality disorders. I've also learned about shame-based personalities, which is what drives people to shut us out. He has a narcissistic personality disorder. Some are worse than others - I believe horsey2's ex is more extreme. I've also learned about bipolar disorder, psychotic disorders and other behavioral disorders. Your wife sounds bipolar to me - the manic swings can span years (she might have been manic when meeting and marrying you - the hysterectomy could have triggered the depressive swing), so the abrupt turnarounds seem to be based on something more biological or emotional. I am not trained to recognize things, but the counselor I see is - and it took me years of searching to find a counselor who can recognize these personality disorders. Because of this and the book he's written, I know much more than before. I found some journals I had written in year 6 of my marriage that showed these traits in my ex.

Anyway, I don't know - probably only a trained psychologist could diagnose your wife, but people with these disorders almost never let themselves be examined. But, if she is bipolar or a mixture of something, you will never reach the end of your analysis, but I think you will eventually grow tired of the obsessive thoughts you're having, as I did. There are a lot of good websites out there, one in particular I think might help you, even though you don't know exactly what you're dealing with in your ex... http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/healing_from_narcissistic_abuse.html

I think what might help you a lot is a book called "Changes That Heal" by Dr. Henry Cloud. He's also one of the authors of the Boundaries books that horsey2 mentioned. This book is very good for helping you understand why you're attracting certain types into your life, namely that you may not be a clearly enough defined person in and of yourself. When you began describing the things you and your wife talked about before marriage, it was so reminiscent of my own - I talked about EVERYTHING. I wanted no surprises and no stones left unturned. Then after the marriage, it's like it all fell by the wayside. My ex didn't know how to connect in a deep meaningful way - expected every big or little thing to be worked out in sex. It's like all the precautions I took, all the stone turning, all the transparency amounted to nothing. This is very typical with people with personality disorders, by the way - they want to rush, get frustrated when you don't go their pace, then once they've got what they wanted, they go their own way. Whether your wife just wanted your money is probably less significant to the fact that she seemed to disregard just about everything you had discussed. Practical things like support are just caught up with the rest of the mindset.

I do think you are a really good man. I do think you might be too flexible in your boundaries - because I see things in you that I see in myself and I know this about me. I used to think that my easygoing flexible nature was a strength - but how I found out what a weakness it can be! I think the only way to avoid these bad experiences is to really test (righteously) our relationships in the beginning. Don't be agreeable - do what pleases YOU (DON'T sacrifice - this is where Dr. Harley's "policy of joint agreement" will help you), find out what YOU want and expect your potential partner to react in whatever way they will to really see if you're compatible, too really see what they can and cannot live with. They'll go away if there's something wrong with them, either by your choice or theirs. The good ones will work with you and reveal their boundaries to you as well. This is not selfish, this is self-care. I really think Dr. Cloud's book will help you. You need to focus on yourself and this book will show you just what those things about you are good to focus on and which things are not.

I wanted to mention some things in relation to your children too... My dad died when I was 14. His wife, our step-mom continued to see us for about two more years after that. Then, we stopped seeing her and only a few years ago found out that it was because our own mother pretty much told her that she thought that was enough. We were broken-hearted. We loved her so much. But, she had no parental rights. I'm telling you this just to let you know that I know exactly how your children and step-children are feeling. They will learn (and maybe you can help teach them) that they can keep their love for the other children tucked away in their hearts and maybe contact the other children if they want when circumstances are better. Don't get them embroiled in adult thinking about this. It's really important that you keep it simple. That way they won't obsess and they probably won't feel the loss as much as just missing them. I still love my step-mom, but I haven't talked with her since I was a kid. We did hear from her a couple of times and she was open to communicate, but we just never took the step. We had different lives by then. Just know that it's the love and memories I carry with me and no one can take that away.

Many counselors will tell you that you should wait until your children are mostly grown before remarrying to avoid the things that your children are now experiencing and a lot of other troubles that come with mixed families. Even the healthiest of people have a hard time dealing with it. Of course, that leaves us single parents pretty much dying of loneliness for years. So, while it may be good advice, it may not be possible for a lot of us. I think we each have to decide how strong we are and do the best by our children and those decisions are not easy.

I know how hard these feelings are that you're dealing with - I think I told you about the 10 year Siberia my ex-best-friend sent me to. I struggled for years over that, simply because no explanation was given to me. I don't think you're going to find the answer to every question, but I do know that you will find peace eventually. The best things you can do for yourself are to take care of yourself physically (eat well and exercise and be especially careful not to let yourself get too tired - it's the best therapy for depression and/or hard feelings) and mentally, especially by developing good friendships and caring support. Read "Changes That Heal". It sounds just right for you. FYI- I've read about a hundred books during and since my divorce. I'm not an expert, but I do have a clue what's out there and how to apply it.

You seem like a great guy who just needs to learn to be more specific in your love for, as well as how you define yourself. I picked up on this from how many skills and career interests you have... not abnormal by the way, if you've ever done a Myers-Briggs personality assessment. Some people are jacks, or rather, masters of all trades and the real challenge with you might be to pick just one.

I would like to share with you more, definitely after you've dug into the book a bit to find out what you think. Or, sooner if you want.

WFL

(P.S. - What makes you feel good? Do those (healthy) things often. We get so caught up in the struggle to understand and even just survival that we forget to allow ourselves be led to greener pastures. That will really help lift the cloud you're under.)

warrior, very good advice, I agree. I only had one comment:

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find out what YOU want and expect your potential partner to react in whatever way they will to really see if you're compatible, too really see what they can and cannot live with. They'll go away if there's something wrong with them, either by your choice or theirs. The good ones will work with you and reveal their boundaries to you as well.

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The only caveat I have to this is that, if the person is dishonest, with you or with themself, they may not leave. If the woman described was indeed looking for a sugar daddy, she would pretend whatever she needed to pretend, to get that wedding ring.

Thanks Horsey, Cat, Warrior and all...

I read lots, so much in fact that I just bought a furniture collection for my home office and I had to buy 4 book shelf units to fit all of my books. I will pick up the Changes that Heal book and read it after I finish my current book (the new one by Joel Olsteen, Become a Better You).

The 3 divorces thing scares me to death. But I think what makes it horrible is that I know where I screwed up in my first marriage and I know what went wrong in my second marriage but I just can't convince myself on the 3rd. One day I want to blame it on her medical changes/harmones, the next I think it was a con job from the start and the next day I think it was all my fault and she can do no wrong.

I know its irrational but I wish she'd of just screamed and yelled at me and called me names and said all kinds of horrible things about me and said what she couldn't stand about me. Even if it was all lies and made up just to try to get rid of me, I think I'd be better able to handle it.

I try to evaluate self esteem. In some ways and things I'm so successful and so smart and do so well its hard for me to not walk around with my head high and almost have to keep myself in check to make sure that I've not gotten too egotistical. And yet in areas of relationship, I can be so insecure because of my history, etc.

In either case I've been focusing on improving myself. My spiritual life has grown. In so many other ways I am doing well and in fact far better than I've ever done before. And yet I stay so torn and so broken over this.

Oh well, I don't know if I'll ever truly find an answer. I just have to take things one day at a time. And again I very much appreciate the feedback, thoughts, opinions, criticism, etc.

TD, you'll be fine. You're doing more than 90% of people - you're looking for solutions. Hang in there.

Don't forget the Emotional IQ books in your bookshelf, Emotional Intelligence and Achieving Emotional Literacy. We with high IQ's, and I put you in that category can LACK in emotional skills. Even analyzing our emotions from day to day. You wsay one day it's this, then it's that.... ME TOO. But I can run a successful company, out read, out write, and out study everyone!

I'm admitting I'm emotionally not all there, and as far as managing relationships... not there either. I focused on my business to make me "feel good" about myself. Did you do that too? Worked, knew you were smart? Didn't understand why your ex didn't "get it" as for what you were "doing" but missed out on really "being there"?

I think you are a good man. I agree with the last poster.

Very few people MEAN to go through life with three marriages and repeated "failures".... why do Bad Things Happen to Good Peoople? But that's anotheer book for your shelf. As well as why Good Things Happen to Good People.

And the Secret to it all? And Joel Osteen? All good books.

I'd say do some self counseling perhapss. What are yout problems? Do you Rescue? Women who need help? Who feel victimized when you "do too much?" For example, women with children NEEDS husband and provider, you are "superman" and it makes you feel great about yourself?

But do you see that someone this "needy" has issues of their own? And then codependency? By the way, Codependent No More is the Next book? And then you might as well join a Christian Recovery program and admit you are an addict, not alcohol but of others... and that's not correct according to the owner of this site.

Not sure what to say... honestly I hope you can find some peace. I'm so sorry about what you've been through. Today I got my nails done by someone divorced three times. I wanted advice, as you do learn from other's mistakes, and at 50 something she was SAD. She saw trends, the same "stuff" repeating over and over again. Finally she was seeing that some of it was "her" and that she wasted years and relationships.

But is it better to love and lose then never have loved at all? I admired her for trying and trying, like you, like my ex. Three divorces. Anyone with three would know something. More then the rest of us. BUT if the KNOWING makes one unable to move forward, that's the problem. Also KNOWING TOO MUCH, being afraid. Feeling bad. Shame.

Read Joel Osteen again. Good stuff. We aren't the past, the future is there... we will move on. Look at how you can share, the nail lady can share, hurt and pain, stuff we don't know..... share, love, learn and try to find some peace in the crisis you are in.... best wishes

Hi. Very difficult situation. This line struck a chord in me:


First, your ex wife CAN have a change of heart. But SHE probably won't change her heart, nor can you. God made her, and God can change her heart. Through PRAYER her heart can and WILL be changed. If you have tried everything else, try God now. Ask him once, then leave it on his doorstep and walk away. Stop trying to communicate with her and others. Watch what happens.

Second, you regret the way you acted when you learned of the divorce. I know how you feel. Been through that. But you're right, what's done is done. You can't worry about last year's harvest. All you have is THIS year's harvest. What's important is that you focus on YOU, YOUR growth, your spiritual maturity. God can and WILL absolve your guilt, shame, remorse, sorrow, and animosity.. IF you give him a chance.

When we work, he rests. When we rest, he works

Have you read The Purpose Driven Life? You might if you haven't. Another great book for men is Complete Personalized Promise Bible for Men. Words to live every day by

God bless you and I wish you the best in growing your relationship with God.

OWF