Let's stick with those affairs that occur after the WS has moved out. Are those thought of the same as the original affair?

I am just going to ramble, but maybe this can be a jumping off point for a dialouge. I guess my question is, if reconciliation happens, does the BS's affair have to be treated the same as the WS's affair. (WS being the one that was sneaking around, BS being the one that messed around after WS left).

I know when my Ex and I first seperated due to my affair, I did not see his dating as "affairs". Yes, we were married, but he wasn't doing anything behind my back. When we reconciled, we didn't have to dissect the relationships he had while we were seperated, but we did dissect my affair. Of course, our reconciliation didn't stick, so maybe we did that wrong.

I have always wondered why it is so slow here on weekends. If all the BS's are really being celibate, working that strong MB plan, why aren't the weekends here packed with lonely people staying home alone?

Some people have expressed different views, a few admitted ONS, a few people that say that you don't have to wait for the ink to dry on the divorce papers. I know that the message is to wait since most marriages are recoverable up to two years after D-Day. I believe that it is breaking the marital vows if you are dating before the divorce.

But does it have to be dealt with the same way as the first affair?

I agree that it certaintly complicates things, involving a fourth party to an already crowded marriage. I believe that is makes it harder to stick to the restore marriage plan if you know you have alternatives.

I believe that it can be damaging to the BS, I don't believe that "if you can't beat them, join them", is the healthiest attitude.

Like I said, I am just rambling, I just wanted to hear opinions on the post D-Day affair.

Can we do an anonymous poll in addition to comments?

Post D-Day single choice
	I stayed true blue, no EA, no PA, no nothing
	I had a PA (ONS,revenge A, etc)
	I had an EA
	I got involved in a full blown relationship
Votes accepted starting: 11/02/07 09:55 AM
View Results

"I have always wondered why it is so slow here on weekends. If all the BS's are really being celibate, working that strong MB plan, why aren't the weekends here packed with lonely people staying home alone?"

LOL, Jean. While most are staying home taking doing family things, there have always been a number that have moved on to a 4th party in the marriage. I don't think most people come here and announce it, because we know that it is against MB suggestions. But there have been many, many BS's that comment that they met someone (before the divorce), and then they taper off on their posting. So I'm assuming they chucked the marriage recovery and started with someone new.

After a couple years of trying to save my marriage, I did have a ONS and regretted it immediately. I DO think that it is the same as the original affair in that it is a betrayal of your own marriage vows.

I also think it makes saving the marriage more difficult.

I found myself becoming a bit too attached to a particular male friend of mine, and stopped it when I recognized what was happening. I stopped calling and emailing. I no longer associate with him. He did nothing wrong, crossed no boundaries, but in my mind, I could forsee something COMING of it, so I stopped it.

At the time, I felt like it was not being true to ME, and trying to WIN my WH back, I felt like I was spending time focusing on some other person's problems and becoming enmeshed (this was before MB--after Dday#1 and while I was separated).

I do feel like it is an affair to carry on with anyone outside of your M, separated or not. Why not just be alone, and work on yourself? Why the need for an outside party in such a tumultuous time? It's not healthy to begin a new relationship, when you haven't taken any real time to get over your current one. It seems that, even those who are DONE, still experience grief when their divorce is final, like mourning the finality.

I used to feel that it was absolutely wrong to date or get involved with anyone prior to when the divorce was final. Now that I am separated and the divorce is going through full steam ahead, my views have changed somewhat.

I have been separated since mid-July and have not dated anyone or done anything else. I even wore my wedding band until the end of Sept. I have spent this time greiving the loss of my M and working on myself. During the separation, my STBXWW and I have not had any moments of closeness or togetherness. In fact, she has withdrawn further and pushed harder for a quick D.

I would guess that she has been dating the whole time, and I found out that she registered herself on eharmony at the beginning of Sept. Her atty has told my atty that she just wants out as quickly as possible.

So where does that leave me? Now that I have been in this situation, I realize that I don't need to have someone else in my life to make me feel good about myself and I will not go looking for a relationship or someone to fulfill something for me. But given my current situation, if I happen to meet someone where there is a mutual attraction, I no longer feel the need to avoid the situation.

LoBoy

Maybe I am old fashioned but until the paperwork was signed I still viewed a relationship as infidelity. This in spite of the fact that the courts literally said at the April hearing that we were in essence divorced at that time less final signatures and to go “do whatever you want.” Weird.

I removed my ring for a couple weeks after the court hearing in April, but soon put it back on and only took it off immediately after receiving word from her attorney that the paperwork was signed.

I am proud of that.

I do NOT view a relationship while awaiting the final divorce papers as wrong....never have, never will. Now, that assumes that the BS has ABSOLUTELY NO DESIRE TO EVER RETURN TO THE M...and never does. To me it is merely a formality that has been dragged out by a very inefficient legal system.
In the Bible, it is said that the H is to deliver into the hand of the wife a writ of divorce...this could be accomplished immediately. Just because the lawyers in our country have so complicated every issue...and made it virtually impossible for the common man to handle his own affairs, does not mean that, IMO, there is anything wrong.

If I were a WS that had a spouse that was divorcing me due to infidelity, I would never feel betrayed by her just because she didn't wait until the judge found time in his schedule to sign our paperwork.

Just my 2 cents.

When I got my separation agreement, it stated that we could carry on as if we were 'no longer married'. At THAT point, in the laws eyes, we were free to do whatever. I didn't agree, but PWC ran with it; he even mentioned it when I had him served, that it said we were legally separated and he didn't feel like he was 'cheating'. Most people viewed his second A, with Aimless, to be 'legal', as we were legally separated, and maybe they are 'right'. It didn't FEEL so nice, but I guess LEGALLY that didn't matter.

I didn't like that part of the document, but I cared more about being financially stable in such an unstable time. I also assumed, after coming home and leaving again, we were done. We'll see...

Actually, I've always assumed that on weekdays most people are posting from work! At weekends they actually have something interesting to do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Or, if they have school-age children, lots of running around and catching up with chores. And some, I know, have no home internet access, so they have to wait for Monday.

I wouldn't want to get involved with anyone until I was in a balanced place in my own mind. I believe that it would take a long time, with the marriage firmly in the past and no further contact, before I'd reach that balanced place. I've seen too many people snatch at a new relationship while their emotional focus is still really with the spouse; they haven't got enough clarity to properly assess the new partner. Until the divorce is done and dusted, I don't think the emotional focus can detach.

Of course, that leaves a long period of being alone, anxious and lonely, which is hard for most of us, especially those whose self-esteem has been trashed by infidelity.

TA

When I was seperated I didn't have alot of time on the weekends because I was busy with a bunch of men, I didn't have alot of time because I am busy period, busy on the week days too, and worse on the weekends from friends that want me to do something with them.

I seperated with the intention of divorcing, I agree with MEDC, although, my H was working hard to get me back home. I told him to run, go, be free, H would not. If he had dated it probably would of broken my heart, but that wouldn't of been the first time.

Well now, MEDC surprises me. Being a straight arrow and black/white kind of guy I would have thought he would say married means married.

Believer,

His qualifier was that the BS was the one who was driving the divorce and had decided that their was not to be any chance of reconciliation.

I think that is different that a BS holding out hope for a return of the WS and yet allowing themselves to become involved in a relationship of their own, either as a form of revenge or because they don't want to be alone or feels that their need for SF is something they don't want to live without.

All,
I am of the opinion that many a BS simply doesn't decide to divorce but assumes it will happen because the WS says he/she wants one. Then when the WS asks to return to the marriage, they are surprised and by then may have started a relationship of their own.

Jean,
Dr Harley actually says that a window of opportunity to recover the marriage exists for up to two years, not after D-day, but after a divorce is final. This is why Plan A must be precise and short and Plan B must be thought of as the last chance to restore the marriage rather than the first salvo in the process of divorce.

While I can't say what I might have felt if I had ended up in a long Plan B, I can say that at no time did I ever think that I should be allowed to date anyone else as long as we were still married. At this point I can't speculate because we are still married and likely will be for years to come. OTOH, I can also tell you that there will be no more recoveries from affairs. Not another one...Not gonna happen...


MEDC, I agree with your qualified response.




If the BS has decided it is over and there is no chance for reconciliation (this means no Plan A, no Plan B just Plan D, Gang) then the marriage is pretty much a moot point. It means you're done and don't want the marriage anymore under any circumstances. But if that is NOT the way you feel by an act of will (decision) then don't get involved with anyone else. If you are still holding out hope, don't get involved with anyone else. If you are still longing for the marriage to survive, then don't get involved with anyone else.

And don't blame your own bad choices on your wayward spouse's bad choices...That's what led to the problem in the first place. It's called self justification...

Mark

I am not one for bureaucracy. Too many things get fouled up by the courts...divorce and child custody/welfare are two of them. So, there stamp of approval on a divorce means nothing to me. Frankly, I don't really give a hoot what their stamp says since I don't respect much of what they do.
I am a black/white guy...I, as a BS, would have the final say as to when I was no longer interested in marriage and only waiting on paperwork.
But again...please understand, I am talking about a situation where a BS has made their final decision to never live with or remain married to their ex partner.

The problem with MEDC's view on this is that you can never be sure about that.

I have spoken with a number of BS's, male, who even after divorce have been thrown a total loop by their WW's making moves to reconcilliation. Now even NOW they are considering it despite all the hurt and angst.

IF their wives did this instead of pressing for the divorce, they would still be married even when it appeared the marriage was definitely over and the BS was not open to reconcilliation.

Married MEANS married.

Adultery is having sex with someone else while married.

BK, there are plenty of people that when confronted with adultery call and end to their marriage...no questions asked.

I know people that have been betrayed and their WS have been willing to do every and anything to make things right...and their stance is never, not no how. It is what is best for them.

Married does mean married...but it doesn't mean that divorced has to be the state or local governments definition of it. Read the Bible BK, it is very clear as to the responsibility of the BS. They...not judges or lawyers are to provide the divorce into the hand of the WS.

And I never mentioned having sex....but since you are being exact about this...do you know that in many, many locals in the US that a woman can give out all the BJ's she wants to and in the eyes of the law has not committed adultery. Intercourse is required to satisfy that definition in many, many places. Stupid huh? Yet, we rely on these same fools...the ones that drafted that drivel, to decide for us when we are divorced. Sorry...not me.

My only point MEDC is that you never ever know for 100% sure if reconcilliation is possible before the decree is signed.

no, you never know. I wouldn't either...but some people absolutely do...no doubt about it.


here's a New Jersey case...crazy stuff!

For example, the court in the New Jersey case of W. v. W., 94 N.J. Super. 121, 226 A.2d 860 (Ch. Div. 1967) adhered to this strict definition of adultery. In that case, the husband filed a complaint for divorce solely on the ground of adultery. The wife submitted expert testimony from her gynecologist and hospital records, however, that at the time of the alleged adultery, she was physically incapable of engaging in sexual intercourse. Rather, as a result of x-ray treatments for carcinoma of the cervix, her vagina was completely occluded and obliterated. The husband argued that “adultery” should be construed by the court to include “lascivious conduct, or ... the performance of unnatural sex acts . . .” 226 A.2d at 861. The court disagreed with the husband’s position, holding, “Even actual proof of sexual conduct with a third person other than intercourse is not tantamount to adultery.” 226 A.2d at 862. See also Anonymous v. Anonymous, 283 Ala. 374, 217 So.2d 240 (1968) (holding that testimony of female witness in action for divorce that she had “sexual relations” with husband but that such term as used by her did not encompass sexual intercourse was not sufficient to prove adultery on part of husband).


Look....some people just KNOW they will divorce...or never turn back from divorce. We see those that feel differently here on MB the vast majority of the time...but I wouldn't need the type of fools that decided the above case to let me know when it was okay to date again...by their definition.

I hope things are well down under BK.

even more recent cases involving homosexual acts were flat out excluded as adultery.

okay...enough of my threadjack! This stuff just ticks me off.

Yes, having an affair while waiting for divorce papers is still adultery. Those who think it's not, be very careful; that's the same kind of thinking that says "We don't need a paper to say we are married, we can just say our own little vows and shack up."
If we start saying the marriage is over before it legally is, we can by the same token call something a marriage that legally is not; can't have it both ways.
I guess I just don't understand. Why the big rush to go out and have sex? Sex is a wonderful thing in context, but it's not oxygen or water. Why not just wait for the divorce, take your time dating, and save yourself for a future spouse?
It seems like a betrayed spouse who sees the devastation of sex outside of marriage, would be the person who would see this most clearly!

MEDC - I agree with you about the other forms of adultery - you are arguing about questions not even being asked - we are totally on the same page there.

I'm well mate and I hope you are as well.

It seems to me that saying "The marriage is over as far as I'm concerned, and I'm absolutely sure about that. It's therefore OK for me to date." is what most WS's tell themselves.

We know how often that 'certainty' weakens with time and circumstance.

So why should it be OK for the BS to say and do the same? An argument based on "I'm quite sure of my own mind" is just as fragile for the BS as for the WS. Divorce is often filed from a place of pain and emotional imbalance, although the decision appear rational and cool to the person filing.

It seems to me that the BS is likely to be in a much less stable and composed place than he/she thinks they're in as they approach relationship possibilities. I think it would be wise to assume that you're not as OK with things as you feel you are, and give yourself time.

The fact that the divorce process has idiosyncracies and occasional injustice is not a reason to ignore it as the delimiter of the marriage. It's a reason to campaign for change in the legal process.

TA