I'm so confused and need some help. I found out in July that my H has been having an affair for 1.5 years, mainly EA with occasional kissing. H moved out to "think" in August, had sex with OW once and started saying ILY. H came home in Sept (like a week after having sex with OW). H says he truly wanted to be with me and really thought we would work it all out.

He's been doing everything you would want a WS to do - quit his 2nd job where he ran into OW, wanted to go to MC, phone calls and lots of other reassurances to me. I was trying to fulfill his needs & avoid LBs and we seemed to be doing well. Then I find out it's all a lie and the A has never ended (basically phone calls - no more sex). Even our MC was shocked.

Now H is back to not knowing who he wants and says he loves us equally and he doesn't regret any of the A because he loves OW. He's being a major fence sitter right now.

H says that he really did want to be with me and work on M when he came home in Sept. So I've been trying to figure out why he's suddenly changed his mind. He says that he's not really sure what he feels, but thinks he wants to be with OW based on his actions. (my H is terribly out of touch with his feelings and seems to have great difficulty talking about them or even processing them if that's possible. plus he's incredibly hard on himself over the littlest things - I never realized how badly he viewed himself until recently). He had started NC with OW when he came home, but it only lasted a few days because she sent an email (this is how I learned they had sex), so he was worried about how she was doing & called her. And because he's had trouble cutting off all contact with OW, he assumes that means he really loves her and wants to be with her.

I can't decide if he's just in the "fog" or if he is just too scared to get divorced.

I feel maybe he's just in the "fog" based on the fact that even after having sex with OW for the 1st time, when you'd think emotions and feelings of love between them would be the highest, he came home almost immediately afterwards (maybe it's just due to guilt?). And now because he's having such trouble with NC, he's telling himself that must mean he wants OW. He truly gets upset when I tell him I'm going to divorce him soon if he doesn't make a decision.

I guess I'm just trying to find some hope for my M...my MC doesn't seem to have much hope - she says H is giving me his decision by his indecision - by refusing to choose, he's really trying to tell me that he's choosing OW and is waiting for me to leave.

Is this just fog? Or should his false NC with OW tell me something? I guess I'm not sure how common it is for NC to be false. Based on all my H's positive actions like MC and quitting his job, I thought he was sincere about M but maybe he was just going through the motions and not really feeling it? I don't want to be convincing myself that he's just in a fog if it's not true....if it is fog, how does he get past it? Does Plan A really work and how long does it take? I guess I've just been getting conflicting advice - some is to Plan A so you don't drive WS away further, and other advice is to give WS a wakeup call by showing you're serious about moving on without them....

Skater...

You gotta keep to one thread. Make this one that one...or one of your others. Too hard to keep up with where you are at...you can change your thread title again and again as necessary by editing your first post of the thread...no need to start new ones, abandon them (not respond to great advice) and begin again.

I wrote out a long post to you and it then noticed the above was your 7th post...so I strolled back...and read just what I'd said and asked in others' posts.

We all know this is a heart-tearing time...confusing, full of pain and fear. And you're brave, you're here, you're asking and reading...learning. Stick to one thread out of respect for yourself and others, please.

Did you expose?

Did you re-expose after you found out 9.26.07 that the A continued?

Did you install a keylogger on the computer to verify he's not emailing OW? Have you continued to verify whereabouts?

Your WH seemed to choose you...you chose to believe that going to MC (please get a new one, btw)...feeling guilt...was the beginning of recover.

Can't recover without transparency, going through withdrawal...and NC for him AND you with OW for LIFE.

Now...bigger question...are YOU really choosing your marriage? You don't have to recover...you haven't mentioned how long married, ages, 1st, 2nd marriage, or if you guys have kids. Haven't said much of anything about your own beliefs...what you choose to live by...and if this is a real popularity contest you got going on or you choosing to save your marriage.

If you are basing your choices on his honesty, I gotta say...choose again. Because he most likely doesn't know the truth...fog does that...so him sleeping with her for over a year is a possibility. You basing your choice on number of times, like individual infidelities of sexual contact...is that reasonable, rational? That he focused on her in his EA, attacked the marriage, felt entitled from creating and maintaining his resentment to break his vows to HIMSELF...by putting another person ahead of the marriage...it's all infidelity and it's all from choice.

I don't want you to hurt more...I want you to choose from clarity. Study your own beliefs...what resonates...because if you believe you earned his fidelity, whether your marriage makes it or not, you will be betrayed again, in other relationships. I really don't want that for you.

And an update on you comparing yourself to OW...which is comparing a real person to a fantasy...no comparison...would be appreciated.

Are you avoiding LBs for you, your marriage or to get your WH to choose you, again?

Do you want to manipulate your WH into being H again...or be true to yourself?

LA

Sorry I didn't realize I could stick to one thread, and I have been jumping around with no updates in between. Thanks for your patience with me, I'm such a mess lately. Sorry this is long, I'll try to fill in all the blanks of what's been happening lately.

I exposed to WH's parents a few weeks ago. They were very disappointed and his Mom has talked to him in length about it. A few of WH's coworkers also know, but I don't think they care too much since they're friends with OW and barely know me. I have considered exposing to WH's brother & possibly OW's parents (OW is single).

I did get a keylogger and there was one email and a few text messages a few weeks ago. Due to this, I learned WH stopped by OW's house a few weeks ago for 5 mins for a quick kiss (WH knew I would notice if he was gone longer). OW can't respond to emails because she knows I have access to his email account.

WH has also been very good at checking in so I have been aware of his whereabouts.

In looking back at my post about how much WH & OW have had sex, I don't believe that really matters. You're right, any infidelity is all the same & just as hurtful. I think at that time, I was feeling like I just needed to know the TRUTH already & was analyzing everything. For recovery, I need to feel that WH has been transparent, which he still hasn't been. Hopefully that makes more sense, or is a better way of thinking on my part. I have considered a polygraph as a way to deal with those nagging questions.

Since discovering WH stopped by OW's house a few weeks ago, we've basically been in a holding pattern & WH's fence sitting started. I've firmly told WH that I want to work on M, but he has to want it too. We cannot begin recovery until NC. I have been trying to avoid LBs (something I want to personally work on anyways) but I haven't been trying to meet ENs.

There's been NC to OW lately (from home), but WH told MC that the only reason he hasn't been doing it is because I'm watching the phone/computer but he still WANTS to (WH doesn't realize I have spy equipment - just that I catch him based on caller ID and such). So WH just calls OW from work now.

This is our 1st marriage, together 11 years, married 6 years. We have a 1 year old daughter and are both 29 years old.

I truly do want to save my marriage. We've had a really good relationship and I don't want to split up our family. I believe that you should really try to fix things in a M before walking away, cause that's just the easy way out and you take your baggage with you anyways. I have identified a lot of things about myself that I'm trying to work on and that I want to change.

I believe WH does love me. And we have problems to fix in M which helped lead to A, I recognize that. MC has also shown how the A was partly a result of WH's personal issues like self esteem. So there's a lot of issues to deal with, both me & WH recently started IC.

WH & I have talked about the fantasy vs. reality with OW, how WH needs to go through withdrawal, what we want to fix in M, etc. WH has done some reading & is trying to decide if the love he feels for OW is real or only the illusion of love. WH seems to understand all of this (about the fantasy) but is still not willing to give it up.

My struggle now is where do I go from here? My MC feels I either need to make a decision or be willing to give it some more time to see if WH makes a decision to end A. If I give it more time, should I be trying Plan A again? I've been hesitant to do it the last few weeks because I don't want to feel like I'm competing against OW to try to "win" my WH - this isn't a popularity contest and I don't want it to feel like one. I recognize that's a negative way to view Plan A and usually I don't, but the thought/feeling creeps in sometimes.

I can really see the benefit of Plan A and I believe it was working for us previously. Finding out false NC just feels like so many steps backwards again and now WH won't commit to working on M. WH says he had been cutting down on the amount of calls with OW as things were improving between us. WH believes he will "slowly cut it off" with OW as we continue to improve, but I don't believe that logic. Our M cannot recover properly while OW is still in the picture...plus it's just a way for WH to have his cake & eat it too.

WH says he hasn't talked to OW since Saturday and won't have an opportunity to call OW until Monday. WH says he's taking a break from OW to help make his decision. I hope he's being honest about NC for the last few days, but we'll see. Plus the MC pointed out to WH his "decision by indecision" yesterday so I hope he stops fence sitting soon - I don't think WH had looked at it like that before.

I hope this helps answer previous questions. And now I know to stick to a post <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks!

skater,

Thank you for responding here. And for not taking my advice as chastisement...reasonable when you feel all over the place (a mess), well to be all over the place.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Won't get you where your heart wants to really be, though, eh?

Withdrawal is like a holding pattern...you can experience it as this held breath...or you can use it as the time to really change yourself, your patterns, the previous dance that is your marriage.

Sounds like you've got your route to The Truth down pretty well. You know how to find out the truth and not rely on your foggy WH to tell you what it is...and you're open to knowing what it WAS when the withdrawal peters out.

And that's what it does, I believe.

What I see you doing, though, is depriving yourself of meeting his ENs. You won't get those loving feelings as a result of loving actions if you withhold yourself, will you?

Notice, he wasn't in that question.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Just like eliminaing LBs because they aren't who we really are, meeting ENs are choices we make because that IS who we really are, as well. Not about getting him to feel loving feelings (he can block every deposit). About us owning our half, and getting our own love bank filled a bit through our own actions.

Changes the giving to get/tit for tat dynamic and begins the new one, believing love is a verb...under our control, our choices and so are the rewards.

Helps to change us from acting based on possible response to acting from our own code.

This was where my focus was, to form new patterns, so that after withdrawal, I could take the truth, his truth, and know my own. Used the withdrawal period to practice, fail, practice, practice some more.

No holding pattern there...lots of activity, learning and growing.

My DH felt the same way...knew I'd find out so he didn't contact, and two years later, he felt GRATEFUL for me checking, seeking the truth outside of him. He wanted desperately to cake-eat. Wanted the fantasy to continue and to not lose me. Big part of the fog. I brought reality instead. Know you are reality, 'k?

The pain I felt when he would mourn his OW during withdrawal helped me to realize my own stuff clearer. I not only wanted DH to be back in our relationship, I wanted to control his feelings, too...for him to want to be back in it. This lead me to see my pattern of not only wanting something (desire), but wanting it when I wanted it and in the way I wanted it.

Was key in changing our marriage...because my DH knew this really well...he often felt like nothing he did to meet my ENs was enough...because the EN wasn't the thing...had a lot of conditions on it, which he couldn't help but fail to meet...so why try at all?

I could better see my traps during the withdrawal...keeping my focus on me...and sharing what I found with DH.

Your MC nailed the part of WH and self-esteem. I believe that's the reason that giving up the fantasy is so hard...it's a short-cut to feeling great without really doing great. It's the mirrors he lives by, avoiding himself as real, he's caught in.

So you can see why any effort you expend to educate or fix his stuff only reinforces that others define him. Using the listen and repeat was CRUCIAL to get through withdrawal for me. Hands back my DH's battles...and I use it to this day. Acknowledge, not fix. That's partnering. Fixing, soothing, changing his stuff...even educating...is parenting.

Was great to finally learn that difference, Skater. Lots of blessings and freedom are there for you in this process.

Because you came here and posted...I got a new view on something. In my experience, A's begin in our heads...as fantasies about others...before they become actions...and to end them, we go no contact...which doesn't end the fantasy in our heads...only NC for a long time does that.

It's like the beginning is the same at the end...which I didn't realize (I fought my DH's thoughts about OW for a really long time)...and now I see how necessary it is for it to end as it began...so we can see the beginnings of them better...enforce our marital boundaries around ourselves, even in our thoughts...where A's really begin.

At one point during withdrawal, my DH said, "But if I don't think of her, I won't want to be with her if I decide to end it with you!" That was a huge moment...me, sitting there, reeling from my own fear of abandonment and withholding...and I thank myself for not saying a word...because the second half of that came flying through him to me...he knew his thoughts determined his actions...and his feelings. It was a first.

Today, he knows this...and keeps me in his thoughts...when we disconnect, he knows he's kept me out of them...and he shares these with me. Can be work, distractions...events. Not OW's...he revoked his own permission to fantasize a couple of years ago and he is delighted with relief over not doing it. He freed himself.

We can't go into our partners' minds and reorganize...we can certainly do so in our own. Changes the dance because it changes our own choice of steps...doesn't change our partners.

They do change.

Not for us...for them. He chose to work on our marriage, in the end, because he chose to believe it was the only way for his ultimate happiness. That was about him. Just like the shortcut of the A (which is why those relationships end, btw...shortcuts cut out lessons). I'm half of his happiness...our marriage is the whole of it...and he's the other half.

You can get here from there, Skater. I know you can.

Where are you now? You're in Plan A. You have more exposure to do...OW's parents. If you believe your WH is in contact from his work phone, then you expose to his work, his boss. You don't tell him first, you just do. You do it from your commitment to yourself to live from honesty so you will have an honest life experience.

Respect he chooses...share how you choose your own thoughts...how you've discovered you have choice over your thoughts, beliefs, how you perceive and view...and those are what result in your own feelings, not him doing it to you, or others.

Know that your recovery is your choice...and listen to your MC about your choice being equally important as WH's choices.

Choose to commit to recovering your marriage...don't waffle back and forth based on his choices. Choose yours. Predetermine your progressive boundary enforcements around NC. I think I relate very much to your situation right now because I waited on my WH's decision for three months.

Our MC asked us in the first session what my goal was for counseling. My answer was to save my marriage. That was my goal...I chose it and aligned my actions to it.

My WH answered his goal was to make a decision...to either leave the marriage and go with OW, to leave the marriage, or to stay and work on the marriage.

MC asked him what time frame he had in mind for coming to this decision. WH said by the first of the new year (it was October).

It was okay to have different goals. MC said, "I respect your goal" to my WH, "and because you want to make this decision, you'll have to end all contact with OW. Her influence is what is stopping you from making this decision about your life about your life."

My WH didn't end it that first session...he did after the next one (a week later), right after the session.

They still worked together, so there was contact. What he ended was the personal influence he allowed...the personal calls and visits, talks, etc. So contact continued for another two months. My WH decided to put in for a transfer, though, because he was wrestling the fantasy/feelings from working with her three days a week. His transfer came through after he'd recommitted to the marriage (for the reason I shared above). He's been in total NC ever since.

Didn't take me making him do anything...every one was his choice. When he called her from the house on his cell phone and I checked, I said the boundary was that he not contact her or receive her calls in our family home. He held himself to that...and once when she called and I was at work, he went out to his car in the 20 degree day.

And he reported the contact that night.

I drew my lines...and I didn't base my actions on his stuff. I embraced Plan A all the way...and it was scary. One night he called because he was working late due to all sorts of crap from work, I got my sons to come with me and we brought him flowers...and my youngest went in first to see if OW was there (she wasn't)...and we went in, gave him the flowers, and sat there, had dinner, while he worked...in support of him, as a family.

I got to hear out of my 14-year-old's mouth something I didn't know...another customer asked him why the flowers...was it a birthday...and he said, "No, Dad was going to divorce us and now he's not. We're here for him." And continued eating.

I had to clear my intent...and not talk myself out of encroaching on him. Doing my half...not being afraid to ask the boys to accompany me...and take action. Not to change his stuff...to be O&H.

Years later, that was pivotal. DH had come to see me as his enemy, not his teammate. Same for the kids.

You can think of ways to act from your choice to love...dropping off a favorite treat to him at his work...flowers...something you know he likes that you would feel love in giving...so you are known at his work...you're real...not a concept.

I welcomed him home with a hug and a kiss...a commitment from me I had not done before...and we agreed to kiss good morning, good night and good bye. Had to do it from our heads, even when our hearts didn't want to...each are acts from our own choice...not because the other did or didn't.

I had to set my mind off of competing with OW to competing with my old self...all the damage I'd done with my LB's...to myself and to him. Made my Plan A about newness...clean slate...for myself and WH...because of MY deepest desire to be the wife I really was...not who'd I had become or the patterns I brought with me into our marriage.

My Plan A was to hold to new boundaries...to not act if I would resent...to do O&H drivebys and to limit R talk to 20 minutes a week, only on Thursday nights. To focus on new RC time and make sure, even with kids, we got that as our 15 hours of UA each week...to play again with my partner, my best friend...from my choices, not his.

Skater, you sound like you have all the ingredients it takes...your posts sing with your self-honesty...where you disclose what you feel and how you perceive...and question the choice of your perception...even as you own it.

Doesn't sound like you're beating yourself up for what is yours...I don't hear much self-punishing going on...I believe you may still be fighting yourself on your own choice to recover your marriage or not. Once you're clear on that, I think you'll begin thriving right away.

Can you really see the benefit of Plan A to yourself? What you won't allow yourself to do to others, you won't do to yourself. You will know and grow from owning your own power and embracing your limits...you'll feel incredible freedom, the experience of it...from not acting based on possible response.

And you can come here and share your fears, worries, see where you step over your boundary of respect so that you can choose to act from it, therefore experience, in your life right now, as is.

Your boundary of NC...his calls are attacking your marriage. State the boundary..."Contact continues your A. We both know this. You know you're continuing your adultery and attacking our marriage."

Not angry or mean...stating the truth. Contact continues the A...why Harley says NC is for life.

Find your boundary in his continued contact...ask in your next MC session what his goal is for MC...state yours. Get a time deadline for his decision. To make that decision, he'd have to have NC with OW for three months, maybe...find out with MC right there...sounds to me like he knows he controls the door to OW's influence...and shutting it for him to get clear on what he desires, long-term, is really scary. Was for my WH. Living through others...heck, you sure don't shut doors on them...that's cutting off your own reflected self, isn't it?

Ask your MC for what you need...and if you are craving WH's decision the most, flip it over and see if you're not giving it...if you're waffling, too...back and forth...based on his choices. Make your own. Commit to saving your marriage and to healthy boundaries. Or you can choose to not decide...or choose to file for divorce right now. Your decisions are yours...they are valid. Only you can decide. I decided to wait on my WH's...had he recommitted and continued the A through contact, I would have filed for legal separation. I had to determine that ahead of time. I also chose to discuss what he or I would do if OW made contact...by phone, in person, accidental or otherwise...predetermine and commit to our own responses...and that hurt like crazy...from fear. Held my fear and discussed, committed to, anyway.

Didn't know at the time...that's teambuilding actions...choices. Us against the attacker...determining our best defense for our marriage. Together. After recommitting, my DH said, "I know this is tough...it's tough for me. I also know we're in this together."

That's been our marital phrase since...what brings us back to our own goals...we're in this together. Not him fighting off the dragon...you both do...you, him, and the marriage.

That's what was missing pre-A the most...me against him, him against me...and no idea there was The Marriage. What I wouldn't do (act of love) because of my feelings for him at the time, I committed to doing for The Marriage...my half. I could honor it even when I was raging inside at my partner. Helped to finally see marital boundaries and my own boundaries. Both.

If I had looked at the withdrawal/decision period as my sacrifice, we'd be divorced now. I have no doubt. My resentment, created from my choice of perspective, would have had my DH "paying back" which is endless...and we wouldn't have made it. By seeing it as my growth time, my change time, my amends to myself and my marriage...made all the difference.

Btw, what do you guys call OW when he says stuff about her? First name? Change that for yourself. Call her by her last name (different from your marital name) or as the two letters...OW...aloud. She's not in your marriage, she has no standing, isn't real...don't make her part of it by affording her any respect or inclusion, 'k?

Last night, DH triggered to something on tv and said, "That was OM's (we have an obscenity name for him) favorite." I said, "I didn't know that...guess I don't remember. Hey, I had an OM (using same obscene name) experience two nights ago...(I related it)." Then we hugged. Still real after three years...what we didn't experience was pain or fear...remembrance without the emotional sock to it. Acknowledged and led to something I'd forgotten to share. Good for our marriage. Good to know.

And I admire you for not taking WH's logic as your own. Big kudos. Knowing what you choose to believe, or in the way you believe, is solely yours. His is his. Which is why listen and repeat is huge...separates those. Breaks enmeshment.

I admire you very much for your choices. I believe they are healthy and self-loving. Thank you for being here and making MB part of your marriage.

LA