So I've been searching this site since I found it a week ago, hoping to find something for my situation. I can't, so if someone can point me to something appropriate, I'd appreciate it. If there isn't anything, advice is welcome.

Married 27 years, 17 year old daughter, both products of two very dysfunctional families. I was taught to be quiet and make sure everyone else is taken care of; that I'm no better than anyone else; that it's my job to get married and be a good wife to someone; to not make waves. My husband was from an extremely poor family, with a schizophrenic mother and alcoholic father; MrCat basically raised his whole family, including his mother, since he was about 9.

I went from an abusive fiance straight to MrCat, never spent a week on my own, had my father telling me what to do, then my older brother after dad left when I was 12, then fiance at 16, then MrCat at 20. First 10 years of marriage, I just did whatever MrCat wanted and everything was fine; I did all housework, lost my friends because MrCat always raised an issue whenever I spent time with them (it was easier just to not see them any more). Then D17 was born, and I found myself having to split my time between the two of them.

MrCat is a nice person, loves to help people, very honest, bends over backwards for other people - but not his family. Family always comes last, and I spent 20+ years apologizing for him. I've done a lot of research, and he fits the bill of the "Right Man Syndrome" to a T. Always right, only sees black and white, everyone else is always to blame for everything, everyone else is stupid, and if you question anything he does, he goes ballistic. He will NOT admit he has done anything wrong. He is manipulative without realizing he is manipulating, if that makes any sense. Example: if he comes home and I'm helping D17 with homework, and then we work on something else that doesn't include him, his favorite comment is "I should have just stayed at work" (meaning he's not getting enough attention). He's always angry about someone or something.

Because I have such low self-esteem, I've rarely made it clear that I'm unhappy. I have such an innate fear of confrontation and desire not to be noticed that I literally get sick in my stomach and vomit if I have to tell anyone something controversial. If I see a store that has no other customers in it, I won't go in because I don't want the owner looking at me and expecting me to buy something. The one time I went to counseling, it soon became clear that MrCat was the cause of my distress, so she set up marriage counseling. I had to tell him that they had requested him to show up as a help to me, to help ME get better. He lasted 3 visits, until the therapist started asking him specific questions about his part in everything. At which point he stormed out, called her a witch, and never spoke of it again. (He also has a thing against women, although when I've stated that to him, he denies it.) The one time during all this that I was able to explain to him that his shouting scared his daughter, he immediately stopped, and has rarely shouted again.

I have brought up things that I'd like to get out of the marriage, but he pretty much ignores what I say, pretends I never said it. If I ask him to do something, like hang up a picture, he doesn't respond; instead, he suddenly finds something else to do, like going in the back and digging a fake river he says he's doing for me; it's a power play to say "I'm taking care of you, but on my terms." But if I said that to him, he'd get angry and deny he's done anything wrong. As long as he's getting to do what he wants, he's fine and we have a quasi-normal household.

So my question is, if you've got a woman who would literally rather die than create a major confrontation, and a man who thinks everything is fine because everything always goes his way and his wife never says anything (knows she's depressed but hasn't got a clue it's about him) and even if he knew why, he would never be willing to consider he's done anything wrong, how do you get to the point where they can even carry out all the steps and tools listed here? They're great tools, but they all seem to require conversation, if not full out desire to change. I'm very aware it will take me to get some cajones to be able to force a change because he's totally unwilling to accept any blame, but how do I get there? I went to counseling for 3 years, took anti-depressants, and never got anywhere. How do you make up for 49 years of no self-esteem?

Welcome. Just wanted you to know someone is reading your post. Weekends are slow. But the folks on the emotional needs board are GREAT and they will be able to help you. They've seen it all. I mainly read on this board, and have seen wonders happen with difficult cases.

Do you work outside the home? I noticed your daughter is 17 and will be on her own in a few years. So at least you don't have little ones depending on your choices.

Hello and welcome. Did your counseling focus on self-esteem building? Conversational skills? Or...? What did you learn while in counseling? Why do you believe it was ineffective?

First, we traced back my issues to childhood, for some reason I'm blocking a lot of memories, my dad (who's just like my husband, of course - as long as you're agreeing with him, everything's fine), my dad leaving and trading me in for his wife's son, that kind of stuff. After that, she tried to get MrCat to come in and work with me, but that lasted one month. At the same time, I went to the psychiatrist for meds. I was so low that if the therapist would tell me I was pretty, I would burst into tears. I guess because I want to believe it so much but can't. I've worked since I was 16, the longest break I've had was when D17 was born, 2 months.

We are both horrible, horrible with money, so we've been in debt my whole adult life. Therapist tried to help me get hold of that, and it worked for awhile, but when I left that job, which provided the free therapy, to get one that earned more money, the progress all kind of dwindled away. But I'm back in the position of trying to pay my bills off so when D17 moves away I'll be financially free to move out if I need to; but I refuse to do it with her here, because I've seen what people like him do when they are faced with a leaving.

I discuss everything with her; she's even thinking of going into psychology because it's so fascinating to her; so I try really hard to make sure she doesn't take any of the blame for this or doubt herself. I also started taking her to a counselor so she'll have someone to bounce thoughts off of. FYI, I did call another psychiatrist recently and had a bad encounter with her, so I'm looking for another one. With depression, it's hard to get things done in a normal speed, but it's in my mind every day, so I think I'll get it done this week.

While I was at the first therapist, she tried to get me to acknowledge my worth. She had me make little signs about what I'd like to believe (people like you) (people want to be around you), and paste them on my mirror, and repeat them to myself (fake it til you make it). She gave me the simple small task of telling my husband on a Saturday morning that I feel like, or simply I want, to go to the mall by myself. I never did, still haven't. That probably sounds strange, but the way he operates is, I say that; he says, 'wait a minute, I'll go too' and if I say no I want to go alone he says 'Fine! Just go! It doesn't matter if I go, what difference does it make? Nobody cares if I'm in this house anyway. I'm just here to pay the bills! I might as well just stay at work!" And then I cave. The few times earlier in the marriage I'd go somewhere, when I get back he'd have some sort of catastrophe happen that he can blame on me not being there; and then he'd bring that up, any time I next wanted to do anything on my own.

I have to keep saying that he doesn't realize he's doing that. In his mind we have a perfect family. He simply has no idea how unhappy I am, because I've spent my whole life being numb and putting on a good face. Amazingly enough, I've said about 6 times the last 2 days that all I want to do this weekend while D17 is out of town is get something accomplished around the house; when I got up this morning, he actually got up too, and is working on something downstairs, that I've been asking him to do for 4 years. Of course, I met his EN (sex) Friday night, which I rarely do above normal sex, so maybe he feels a little more generous. And because I said how much I wanted to accomplish something this weekend, so many times, in a non-threatening, non-blaming way.

ETA, 7 hours later, that he's outside working on his 'river' again, because I commented again today about how much I want to work on the house, get it organized. Although he did go with me to take some books to church for a sale and then try to find a place where we could get massages. See, he's a contradiction. If it's 'his' idea, he loves to spoil me, but if it's something that truly makes me happy (an organized house) he can't do it, because that would be giving in, i.e., letting me nag him like his mother did.

It is possible that your DH has OCPD (Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder) which is not the same as OCD. Some of the characteristics of OCPD are:

Preoccupation with details, rules, lists, order, organization, bodily functions, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost

Showing perfectionism that interferes with task completion (e.g., is unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict standards are not met)

Excessive devotion to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity)

Being overconscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or religious identification)

Inability to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when they have no sentimental value

Reluctance to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they submit to exactly his or her way of doing things

Adopting a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes

Showing rigidity and stubbornness

Urge to perfect every little thing


Look at the message board at this link and see if it sounds like your DH:
**EDIT**

Thanks for answering. I've never really attributed that to him before, so I took one of the tests and he scored:
"46-55. Mildly O-C. Your compulsiveness is working for you, and you are successfully adaptive."

He's extremely sloppy, to the point that I'm constantly embarrassed to have anyone at our house. The only time he ever helps around the house is if we're having a party, and then he deep cleans like crazy, so he can impress.

He's only a perfectionist as far as it has to be done his way, and no one else's.

He spends all day on one computer task, I think, because it allows him to sit in front of the tv with a 'purpose' so he can't be asked to do any work around the house. He also said that he finds it relaxing to tweak a document and its graphics nonstop for 15 hours. I asked him Friday, since D17 was out of town, if we could clean out the garage (entire garage stacked 6 ft high, only enough space to move the lawnmower in and out); so instead, we end up driving around on 15 different errands all day til we get home at 7; Sunday, he did set up a VCR and TV in the exercise room, which I've been asking for for 4 years. But then we go on another 4 or 5 errands, and he ends up mowing the yard and going back to his 'river' in the back for the rest of the day. Oh, and he comes in all sweaty and out of breath and accusingly asks why I can't be out helping him finish, so that he could come in and help with the house stuff when we're done. So I do, and he doesn't (help me, that is). This is our pattern.

I think he keeps everything because he came from such a poor family - he literally dug around in trash bins behind restaurants to get food for his mom, cos his dad wasn't providing them any food.

So I guess it doesn't fit him too much. Someone did tell him once not long ago that he has ADD. It was just an observation, but it kind of fits, at least in terms of things he doesn't want to deal with, like finances or making plans for vacation. Or anything I want.

But really, this description fits him to a T:
Right Man Syndrome

He wants me to be happy. He just doesn't want to do it at the risk of admitting he's done anything wrong. And I've been battered down too long mentally to be able to make any sort of ultimatum. Heck, I can't even bring up the subject.

Cat, I know this isn't the answer to most of your problems but like any large set of problems you have to pick one and work on it and slowly knock them off the list.

To some extent, what you've described in the quote, is what I'm like. I like to do what I want to do when I want to do it. I don't get a big thrill out of doing what my W has asked me to do. I'd rather do what I know she wants done but isn't asking me to do.

For instance she's gone most Saturdays riding and that is when I'll try to do a lot of the housecleaning. I'm kind of stuck home with the kids anyways so I get them involved and we pick a floor and we clean it till it shines.

The reason I DO THIS is because I'm an admiration hound and I want her to be thrilled for what I've done. Doing the mundane where I get no thank you doesn't turn me on and provides little motivation for me. And yes I'm aware that I'm a big part of that being a little dysfunctional.

Anyways here's what I would suggest. Make yourself a big old "What I want to get done" list. Leave it somewhere where he's bound to see it. When my W does that I usually peruse the list and will try to knock an item or two off of there for her.

Maybe then he'd do them becase he'd feel he's doing it because it's his idea and he wants to do it for you ... not because you're asking but because he wants the extra credit that comes with doing things that are a surprise for you.

Just a thought that seems to work around our home.

You've got some hard work to do if you're going to change this. You can't expect him to change unless you change the dynamic of yourself that has put you in this place.

I'd love to see you get your courage up and start doing things you want to do. Don't allow yourself to be pent up like you are. You've allowed this to happen to yourself. I understand why 'because keeping the peace is easier than working through the confrontation'. But you've allowed yourself to be manipulated quite a bit. You've got a pretty big hole to climb out of. Try taking some really small baby steps. Hopefully that will allow you to build up some momentum.

Good luck.

Good luck.

Thanks, Alias. When he hooked up the VCR and TV in the exercise room, I came in and kissed him and thanked him. Later, when he was back on his computer again, I thanked him again for doing it. If I got any more demonstrative than that, he wouldn't believe I was sincere (I'm extremely non-demonstrative). I will try to find things that he does and make sure he knows how much I appreciate it.

The problem is, he does so little. He occasionally will cook dinner, maybe once a month, and I always thank him and tell him how good it is. Aside from that, he drops his clothes where he takes them off; he leaves towels on the floor. He opens his mail and leaves the trash whereever he happened to be. He stacks up his mail everywhere and never returns to it until he has created an emergency of having to find a particular bill; then I'm expected to drop everything and dig through all his piles everywhere to help him find it.

I've tried tidying up his piles and I get yelled at. I've asked him to pick up his trash and I get yelled at. I've moved some of his stuff so people coming over won't see it; I get yelled at. And yet he won't take the step to do it himself. It's like a big cat and mouse game, and he's determined not to give in. The only concessions I've been brave enough to do are when I do the laundry, I leave his hung clothes in the laundry room, and I've started leaving his folded clothes on his side of the bed to put away. Usually it will sit there for 4 or 5 days, until he blows up at me for not putting it away. Then I say, well, I've put away all the other laundry, along with all the other chores, I just assumed you wouldn't mind helping this one little bit. Every once in a while if he's sitting in bed watching tv, I'll dump a pile of towels on the bed and he'll fold them (he really has no excuse not to, and he knows it); but he won't put them away.

I've tried the list. I've asked him to help me write a list; "I don't need a stupid list." I've written a list and handed it to him, asking him to please help me out because I'm so stressed out that I need him to help with anything he'd like to help with; he never touches it again. I've written a list and left it on the counter for him to see; it sits there so long that it eventually gets covered with spaghetti sauce or whatever, over a week or two. I've even asked him point blank just to pick something that needs done, whatever he wants to do, and just do it; he disappears to a neighbor's house, sits down with his computer, or goes back to the 'river' in the back yard and works on it. (This river is something he supposedly built for me, because 20 years ago I bought a bridge kit to use in our back yard; I wanted a dry river bed; he told me not to put it together, that he would do it; it has never been unboxed; so last year he created this river bed, and BUILT a NEW bridge - not mine - to go over it.)

I know I just need to get the nerve to talk to him, but I just turn to jelly when I even think about it. I started my daughter with a therapist last week; I'm going to see how I feel about her and maybe I'll start going to see her, too, which should help. And I will find something to do outside the house, you're right. Thanks for the advice.

I guess I'm scaring people away by writing too much, huh?

So I'll just ask a quick question. MrCat gave D17 his prized camera to take to Louisiana for the weekend; she had already lost one of the exact same cameras about 3 years ago, and he had just this year found another one. She also had a camera and a phone stolen at school last year, seperate occasions (and this is the good school!).

He asked me if I thought he should loan it to her Friday, and I said if you do, don't blow up if it gets lost. Well, guess what? She swears she packed it, but it didn't come home. We tried calling her friend's mother 3 times last night and once this morning, and the lady won't answer the phone. But MrCat is going to California tomorrow, so I expect him to be asking for the camera tonight. I'm so wound up I'm nauseous, knowing the backlash we're going to deal with tonight I can't stop thinking about it. He's not physically abusive, but he can be very 'biting' when he's mad. And I understand why he would be, this time.

I know MB isn't meant to deal with abusive personalities, but I could use some help. How do I deal with this today?

Oh no please keep writing. It helps to get as much info as possible ... whether its facts or your feelings and thoughts. It all helps.

I really didn't know where to go with your sich. It is always difficult when dealing with someone who is so unwilling to change.

I will state this:

Just because he won't change doesn't mean you have to continue with the status quo. You should do what you feel you want to do and know will make you feel happy, healthy and whole.

As far as the camera why aren't you teaching your D about personal responsibility? I understand the camera might be expensive and all the more reason why 'swearing she packed it' isn't an acceptable response in of itself.

Don't you think she needs to be responsible and replace what was lost?

Hopefully if you teach her that then it will squash some of the fury you'll be exposed to from your volatile H.

And if he does become 'biting' you don't have to sit there and take it. I'm sure your D feels bad enough and if she accepts responsibility for her actions then there is no need to be 'biting'. I'd suggest you and her leave the room/home if he gets out of control.

You can't change what's happened nor can your D. All she can do is apologize and explain what she plans to do to make it right and maybe outline what she would do if she were ever given the chance again.

I have to ask ... what is going on with your D? It seems odd that she'd lose 3 cameras in in 3 years. The cynical side of me wants to suggest that she is giving these things away knowing all she has to put up with is more of the usual from her Dad (Mr. Biting). Sorry I know that is horribly presumptious seeing I know nothing about your D. The alternative is that she isn't very responsible when it comes to things that aren't hers.

The phone was stolen right in front of her while she was reaching in her locker on the first day of school last year(she had set it on her books on the floor next to her while she reached for something); it's an overcrowded school (3200 students) and stealing is a rampant issue there, has been since the day it opened, so I'm a little less stressed about that one. The first camera was lost at a restaurant amid a big group of people, and MrCat and I were there; we didn't think to look for it until we needed it a few days later. The second one was in her purse at school when she was in a dance recital, buried under her clothes in the changing room, a room that was supposed to be being supervised and locked (it wasn't, and we saw boys walking out of it but the school wouldn't do anything and of course the kids wouldn't say anything). She paid for it over a period of a few months, and got a new one for Christmas. This one is her father's, because we couldn't find an SD card for her camera Friday, so she took his.

I admit she's terrible about stuff, just like her father. He had his laptop in a grocery cart the other day, forgot it was there (!) and slammed the cart into the holder, and broke his computer. It's kind of a symbol of our life, I guess. I've been in depression so long I have a hard time staying on top of her to keep her stuff cleaned up, he refuses to clean up his stuff, and I fluctuate between getting mad at them for not being responsible and going around behind them and doing it myself because I can't stand the mess.

And before you say it, I know I need to go back and get on the AD meds; I called a month ago, and have been playing phone tag with the psychiatrist to get an appointment.

D is going to apologize to MrCat when they both get home tonight, unless I can get her friend's mother to ever answer the phone and she says it's still over there. Well, she's going to apologize anyway, but hopefully the news will be it's at her friend's house in Louisiana, and not that it's missing. I'm more concerned than usual because the camera/DVD/player/etc. is no longer made, and MrCat just found one, unsold, by accident at a company he does business with; so it's pretty special to him. But then, he shouldn't have loaned it to her in the first place, knowing that.

I'm just so tired of being upset over something every day. Anyway, thanks for the advice.

What's another alternative to these two. Neither of these is good for you or does anything to protect yourself. So what could you do differently ...

I have a suggestion but first I need more input. Where are these messes? Are they strewn all over the home?

Cat,

Does he really yell at you? Or is shouting different to you? You said he stopped shouting at D17...does that mean he continues to yell at you, as you stated repeatedly, in your post?

Have you read up on DJs here on MB? What I perceive in your posts is that he is the cause of your depression, which is impossible; if your IC says this, please get another IC right away. Very dangerous.

Each assumption you make about him (like working on the river instead of doing what you want him to do, when you want him to do it, in the way you want him to help you) is kicking your own butt, IMO.

He's has equal pain and fear as you do, I believe. His fear is failing you, experiencing being parented by you, not partnered, fearing you controlling him, trapping him into a no-win corner. My filter is that my DH was very much like this, though, without the spoiling freely part.

His pain and fear are valid...so are yours. To mitigate his, make assumptions and discount is to do so to your own. Which is the depressive cycle eating itself. Full of frustration, helplessness, resentment and sadness.

You say you are not demonstrative. Are you working on that? Is his EN for affection one of his top ones? How about admiration? Acceptance? How about your own?

Your DJ about being more demonstrative would mean not being believed...would you consider that has been your previous pattern? To act based on possible (predicted) response, not to your own code? This is a normal part of enmeshment. Not bad or wrong...just you enslaving yourself to another human being, predicating your actions on their past response...so neither of you are experiencing being whole, complete, equal partners...and can both be resentment factories because of this one choice...to manipulate the others' possible responses, including feelings, thoughts, beliefs and perceptions.

If he makes you, then you make him. This two-way street doesn't stop...doesn't go one way. Sounds to me like you're experiencing your marriage as if it does.

I strongly advise you choosing to not DJ anymore...not in your thoughts, beliefs, words or deeds. That's not who you really are...that's learned behavior from your own FOO...and as you said, there was dysfunction on both sides...may have been a high attraction when you met and fell in love. Changing from what was can be scary, foreign routines and patterns begin...can even feel like you'll lose loving feelings. Know you won't. You'll have more.

Have you found your own abusive behaviors yet?

You parented your H. You told him that if he chose to let her take it, he lost the right to complain if she lost it. I can see saying that to my child, not my equal partner.

I don't see you respecting your H...he knows. He's in a pattern...not in your control. Did you want to really say, "I don't want to give it to her. I want her to buy a disposable camera for this trip. I love her as much as always--I don't want to get in the way of her consequences anymore. What do you think?"

You make the request and let the outcome go.

His pain and suffering is as real as yours. Not in your control, either.

Your inner turmoil for the coming explosion...one you know well from each and every previous choice he's made which didn't turn out as he wanted...what's different in you? Do you have predetermined, progressive boundary enforcements for when he yells? What are your steps you hold YOURSELF to doing?

Your stomach won't ache, you won't tremble, when you can build trust in yourself to enforce your boundaries around yourself. When you don't want to live in I'm right/He's wrongville anymore...when you want to know your own power, respect your limits and live in real freedom and love.

Your choice. Not his. Not him doing to you. You are not a victim. You're a volunteer. Doesn't mean you remove yourself permanently, not all or nothing. Progressive...predetermined...and you will not be able to enforce if you are crossing these boundaries yourself.

Cross the boundary of respect, you won't be able to respectfully enforce. Part of that unyielding, unchangeable two-way street.

I believe you're here on MB because you're at the changing point in your life when you really, really want to stop betraying yourself and change your life experience. I believe you crave most what you're least giving. Great news...because you have control of your half. You can experience a thriving marriage. Because you're here, you're brave, and you're sharing your stuff.

Which is what we do in our marriage, too.

Welcome again...and thank you for making your own thread...and for helping others right off the bat.

LA

P.S. Long posts? What long posts? LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Let's see Olympic size, 'k? You're worth reading...long, short, and every size in between.

I think that right man syndrome and OCPD are basically the same thing.

Only he gets to decide what is RIGHT...the right thing to be working on at the moment...also making sure the document and graphics is just RIGHT. The other issue they have is they don't like to be told what to do...so you asking him to clean out the garage or giving him a list won't work. You have to sort of suggest, see if he is open, but not demand. Also use his characteristics as a tool against him...."Honey, one of the neighbors were walking by and they saw our garage and how full it is!" Appeal to his image to others.

MrAlias: I have tried asking him to pick up. I have tried putting everything he drops into a box, out of the way; it just overflows. I've tried stacking his piles and putting them off to the side; they just stay there, sometimes for years. I've tried going through his stuff; he yells. I've tried asking if we could do it together, even just one pile; he changes the subject or pretends I didn't say anything and if I repeat, he yells. I've tried asking him if we can organize his office and I offer to make hanging folders for his stuff; he ignores. Mind you, this is over a period of years, so it only gets brought up maybe once every 6 months.

He has stuffed papers, magazine, past work, old mail, etc. in hanging baskets I had on the wall; in several kitchen cabinets, behind the glasses and plates; covering two of the countertops in the kitchen at any given time; in about 6 of the drawers in the bedroom dresser; in two piles in the bedroom, size of each about 3 ft wide by 3 ft wide by 2 ft tall; under the dresser and the bedside table; under the coffee table; next to the fireplace; I can't even walk in his office without tiptoeing so as not to upset anything. We have a 2 car garage and another 1 car garage; all is filled with his boxes, stuff he won't get rid of, things he hasn't gotten around to doing anything with, boxes full of his sales receipts from a job he had 30 years ago that he won't get rid of...does that give a better picture of the mess?

He never ever goes back and attends to any of his piles. He likes to be forward thinking, working on the next day's work/success, not remembering yesterday's. I know that that is one of the real issues, that he doesn't want to 'deal,' and that it is quite possibly tied into being married to me and us feeding off of each other. And his hatred of/need for his mother's love, which she never gave. And his assuming I'm taking her place by trying to get things done. He's actually told me that if he's feeling down, he has to go and accomplish something to feel better, like the yard project - but he doesn't agree that accomplishing control over his messes would make him feel better. I think he's just overwhelmed.

A little more info, he talks to me all.the.time. My phone bill is 95% calls from him. I'm his only friend. He tells me everything, constantly, every day, about his work, which is how he identifies himself. He values my advice, he has me proof all his work (usually at midnight, as he's a night person), and he takes my advice, except when I tell him I disagree with him, like not paying off our bills when we sold our last house; then he gets defensive and yells at me. So as long as I'm his great supporter, everything's fine.

LA, I'm going to have to get back to you later; have to get back to work.

So in a nutshell you feel controlled by this man because he yells, raises his voice and says unpleasant things to you?

LA: Wow, lots of stuff! Yes, he yells at me; if I get mad enough I yell back, which D17 hates. This may happen once every 2 weeks or so. He almost never does with D17; he typically is just more angry with her than yelling; angry and...always expecting her to be wrong. Like he generalizes that he has to wait for her every morning; while she tells me that she has to help him get ready most mornings because he can never find his stuff (big surprise in our house). He says things that make him look like a victim; I'm sure he feels like a victim in our marriage, since neither of us has been able to take positive steps.

My depression: What I feel is that, because I have no self esteem, and have lost any confidence to weather his outbursts over 30 years, I have centered my life around not being the cause of any outbursts. I plan my day to be available to him so as not to be chided on NOT being available, based on 30 years of him saying "why couldn't you have done that at lunch; why do you have to go now, when I'm home?". If I hear him come home, I get off the computer before he can see that I'm on it, based on 30 years of him saying "What have you been doing all day?". If I sense one of his frustrating days coming on, where he's going to be touchy about something, I warn my daughter not to talk back to him; and then hate myself for perpetuating the abusive cycle in front of her and for not being a better role model. If I have to tell him something he doesn't want to hear, like how I really want to pay off our credit cards from the money when we sold our house instead of him investing it in a retirement fund, I try to say that someone else thinks we should pay them off, an authority, because if an idea comes from me, it's wrong (that one didn't work, though, he just started yelling at me about the accountant who I said told me the same thing; although I DID tell him he didn't have the right to yell at me about her).

So, yeah, I do believe that he is the center of my depression. I fully realize that the REAL center is my own inabilities, but I also can't imagine how I'd be in this fix if I hadn't married him.

Like I said when I first posted, I know it's on my shoulders and it's my job to change me, but I've been deflated for so long - and had no courage in the first place - that I'm practically paralyzed in terms of taking any steps. The times that I have tried to take steps, like calmly telling him I feel overwhelmed and would like him to take one of the chores off my shoulders, he flat out refused.

Demonstrative: I initiated SF for him Friday night, I sat on the couch beside him instead of in my chair Saturday, I held hands with him in the mall Saturday, I kissed him and thanked him twice for setting up a VCR Sunday, and I kissed him goodbye today. I've been trying. But most days he comes home and sits straightaway on the couch, turns on the tv, and starts working on his computer. All night. Usually til midnight, if not all night. It's his buffer, I suppose. But if he has a focus, like the computer, he snaps or ignores or reacts sarcastically if one of us interrupts him. Frankly, it's hard to be more demonstrative than that to someone I don't like any more.

After the one month that he went to counseling with me and realized she was saying that he should share ownership of some of the issues, and he left in a huff, he refuses to discuss any emotional issues, so I have no idea what his ENs are. If I had to guess, it would be sex, devotion to him, and affection. Any time I talk about anything about me, he changes the subject. Seriously. We tried to fix that a few years ago, when I pointed out that I was feeling underappreciated when every time I started speaking he would fidget, look around instead of at me, cut me off and start talking about something he was thinking about. That lasted about 2 months, him noticing how I got upset when he overrode the conversation, and he would stop and ask me about my day or whatever. Then he started forgetting to notice, and I didn't step up and keep up my side. So I'm back to not talking about myself any more.

I actually was giving her money to buy a disposable camera, when he said, no, no, she should take mine. I said, are you sure? If she loses it, you're going to get mad. Maybe that was the wrong approach, but it was a self-defense measure for someone in my shoes, so that I could say later, 'please don't include me in your anger when you find out the camera is missing; I tried to point out the danger of giving it to her.' Which is where I'll be tonight, I guess.

The boundaries I'm trying to come to grips with is to not get caught up in the yelling, which is actually a safety vehicle for me; when I yell back to 'defend myself' I'm able to say things I would never say face to face. I know I'm supposed to say, it makes me feel XYZ when you raise your voice, etc. So I'm actively trying to work on that.

I know full well I have terrible coping strategy and that we feed off each other and that I don't give him much of anything any more. But 10-20 years ago, when I was working my tail off to be proactive in the marriage, it wasn't any better, because it was basically me just giving up any identity and going along with the way he wanted things; which doesn't help him become happier, either. It's only because I've been educating myself that I'm even here.

I'm trying to bring what I learn into it, since he won't participate knowingly. I know I have to take the steps. I recognize that the more depressed I get, the less he's getting from me, frankly because I resent him so much. And I know I'm making excuses. It's just hard to be the kind of person that steps up when I've never in my life even liked myself and considered myself worthy of doing it. Lots of father abandoning me, brother criticizing me (still), mother expecting me to fail. Lots of times of getting rid of my stuff (god! the stuff I've thrown away in fits of despair) and thinking of a way to just end it all that wouldn't impact my daughter and mother as severely, rather than just deal with it.

That's why I asked at the beginning for some advice on getting 'me' fixed. Thanks for the ideas. Lots to think on.

No, I feel controlled by my fear of confrontation. It drives most everything I do, this fear of experiencing a bad encounter, encounters that have repeated themselves over the last 30 years so often that I recognize the patterns. And I hate myself for it. Yet I'm afraid.

No one likes confrontation. Why does there have to be confrontation? If there is confrontation, chances are that you are not protecting your boundaries in a respectful way.

Can you point me to some helpful information on boundaries?