So I've been searching this site since I found it a week ago, hoping to find something for my situation. I can't, so if someone can point me to something appropriate, I'd appreciate it. If there isn't anything, advice is welcome.

Married 27 years, 17 year old daughter, both products of two very dysfunctional families. I was taught to be quiet and make sure everyone else is taken care of; that I'm no better than anyone else; that it's my job to get married and be a good wife to someone; to not make waves. My husband was from an extremely poor family, with a schizophrenic mother and alcoholic father; MrCat basically raised his whole family, including his mother, since he was about 9.

I went from an abusive fiance straight to MrCat, never spent a week on my own, had my father telling me what to do, then my older brother after dad left when I was 12, then fiance at 16, then MrCat at 20. First 10 years of marriage, I just did whatever MrCat wanted and everything was fine; I did all housework, lost my friends because MrCat always raised an issue whenever I spent time with them (it was easier just to not see them any more). Then D17 was born, and I found myself having to split my time between the two of them.

MrCat is a nice person, loves to help people, very honest, bends over backwards for other people - but not his family. Family always comes last, and I spent 20+ years apologizing for him. I've done a lot of research, and he fits the bill of the "Right Man Syndrome" to a T. Always right, only sees black and white, everyone else is always to blame for everything, everyone else is stupid, and if you question anything he does, he goes ballistic. He will NOT admit he has done anything wrong. He is manipulative without realizing he is manipulating, if that makes any sense. Example: if he comes home and I'm helping D17 with homework, and then we work on something else that doesn't include him, his favorite comment is "I should have just stayed at work" (meaning he's not getting enough attention). He's always angry about someone or something.

Because I have such low self-esteem, I've rarely made it clear that I'm unhappy. I have such an innate fear of confrontation and desire not to be noticed that I literally get sick in my stomach and vomit if I have to tell anyone something controversial. If I see a store that has no other customers in it, I won't go in because I don't want the owner looking at me and expecting me to buy something. The one time I went to counseling, it soon became clear that MrCat was the cause of my distress, so she set up marriage counseling. I had to tell him that they had requested him to show up as a help to me, to help ME get better. He lasted 3 visits, until the therapist started asking him specific questions about his part in everything. At which point he stormed out, called her a witch, and never spoke of it again. (He also has a thing against women, although when I've stated that to him, he denies it.) The one time during all this that I was able to explain to him that his shouting scared his daughter, he immediately stopped, and has rarely shouted again.

I have brought up things that I'd like to get out of the marriage, but he pretty much ignores what I say, pretends I never said it. If I ask him to do something, like hang up a picture, he doesn't respond; instead, he suddenly finds something else to do, like going in the back and digging a fake river he says he's doing for me; it's a power play to say "I'm taking care of you, but on my terms." But if I said that to him, he'd get angry and deny he's done anything wrong. As long as he's getting to do what he wants, he's fine and we have a quasi-normal household.

So my question is, if you've got a woman who would literally rather die than create a major confrontation, and a man who thinks everything is fine because everything always goes his way and his wife never says anything (knows she's depressed but hasn't got a clue it's about him) and even if he knew why, he would never be willing to consider he's done anything wrong, how do you get to the point where they can even carry out all the steps and tools listed here? They're great tools, but they all seem to require conversation, if not full out desire to change. I'm very aware it will take me to get some cajones to be able to force a change because he's totally unwilling to accept any blame, but how do I get there? I went to counseling for 3 years, took anti-depressants, and never got anywhere. How do you make up for 49 years of no self-esteem?

Welcome. Just wanted you to know someone is reading your post. Weekends are slow. But the folks on the emotional needs board are GREAT and they will be able to help you. They've seen it all. I mainly read on this board, and have seen wonders happen with difficult cases.

Do you work outside the home? I noticed your daughter is 17 and will be on her own in a few years. So at least you don't have little ones depending on your choices.

Hello and welcome. Did your counseling focus on self-esteem building? Conversational skills? Or...? What did you learn while in counseling? Why do you believe it was ineffective?

First, we traced back my issues to childhood, for some reason I'm blocking a lot of memories, my dad (who's just like my husband, of course - as long as you're agreeing with him, everything's fine), my dad leaving and trading me in for his wife's son, that kind of stuff. After that, she tried to get MrCat to come in and work with me, but that lasted one month. At the same time, I went to the psychiatrist for meds. I was so low that if the therapist would tell me I was pretty, I would burst into tears. I guess because I want to believe it so much but can't. I've worked since I was 16, the longest break I've had was when D17 was born, 2 months.

We are both horrible, horrible with money, so we've been in debt my whole adult life. Therapist tried to help me get hold of that, and it worked for awhile, but when I left that job, which provided the free therapy, to get one that earned more money, the progress all kind of dwindled away. But I'm back in the position of trying to pay my bills off so when D17 moves away I'll be financially free to move out if I need to; but I refuse to do it with her here, because I've seen what people like him do when they are faced with a leaving.

I discuss everything with her; she's even thinking of going into psychology because it's so fascinating to her; so I try really hard to make sure she doesn't take any of the blame for this or doubt herself. I also started taking her to a counselor so she'll have someone to bounce thoughts off of. FYI, I did call another psychiatrist recently and had a bad encounter with her, so I'm looking for another one. With depression, it's hard to get things done in a normal speed, but it's in my mind every day, so I think I'll get it done this week.

While I was at the first therapist, she tried to get me to acknowledge my worth. She had me make little signs about what I'd like to believe (people like you) (people want to be around you), and paste them on my mirror, and repeat them to myself (fake it til you make it). She gave me the simple small task of telling my husband on a Saturday morning that I feel like, or simply I want, to go to the mall by myself. I never did, still haven't. That probably sounds strange, but the way he operates is, I say that; he says, 'wait a minute, I'll go too' and if I say no I want to go alone he says 'Fine! Just go! It doesn't matter if I go, what difference does it make? Nobody cares if I'm in this house anyway. I'm just here to pay the bills! I might as well just stay at work!" And then I cave. The few times earlier in the marriage I'd go somewhere, when I get back he'd have some sort of catastrophe happen that he can blame on me not being there; and then he'd bring that up, any time I next wanted to do anything on my own.

I have to keep saying that he doesn't realize he's doing that. In his mind we have a perfect family. He simply has no idea how unhappy I am, because I've spent my whole life being numb and putting on a good face. Amazingly enough, I've said about 6 times the last 2 days that all I want to do this weekend while D17 is out of town is get something accomplished around the house; when I got up this morning, he actually got up too, and is working on something downstairs, that I've been asking him to do for 4 years. Of course, I met his EN (sex) Friday night, which I rarely do above normal sex, so maybe he feels a little more generous. And because I said how much I wanted to accomplish something this weekend, so many times, in a non-threatening, non-blaming way.

ETA, 7 hours later, that he's outside working on his 'river' again, because I commented again today about how much I want to work on the house, get it organized. Although he did go with me to take some books to church for a sale and then try to find a place where we could get massages. See, he's a contradiction. If it's 'his' idea, he loves to spoil me, but if it's something that truly makes me happy (an organized house) he can't do it, because that would be giving in, i.e., letting me nag him like his mother did.

It is possible that your DH has OCPD (Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder) which is not the same as OCD. Some of the characteristics of OCPD are:

Preoccupation with details, rules, lists, order, organization, bodily functions, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost

Showing perfectionism that interferes with task completion (e.g., is unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict standards are not met)

Excessive devotion to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity)

Being overconscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or religious identification)

Inability to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when they have no sentimental value

Reluctance to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they submit to exactly his or her way of doing things

Adopting a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes

Showing rigidity and stubbornness

Urge to perfect every little thing


Look at the message board at this link and see if it sounds like your DH:
**EDIT**

Thanks for answering. I've never really attributed that to him before, so I took one of the tests and he scored:
"46-55. Mildly O-C. Your compulsiveness is working for you, and you are successfully adaptive."

He's extremely sloppy, to the point that I'm constantly embarrassed to have anyone at our house. The only time he ever helps around the house is if we're having a party, and then he deep cleans like crazy, so he can impress.

He's only a perfectionist as far as it has to be done his way, and no one else's.

He spends all day on one computer task, I think, because it allows him to sit in front of the tv with a 'purpose' so he can't be asked to do any work around the house. He also said that he finds it relaxing to tweak a document and its graphics nonstop for 15 hours. I asked him Friday, since D17 was out of town, if we could clean out the garage (entire garage stacked 6 ft high, only enough space to move the lawnmower in and out); so instead, we end up driving around on 15 different errands all day til we get home at 7; Sunday, he did set up a VCR and TV in the exercise room, which I've been asking for for 4 years. But then we go on another 4 or 5 errands, and he ends up mowing the yard and going back to his 'river' in the back for the rest of the day. Oh, and he comes in all sweaty and out of breath and accusingly asks why I can't be out helping him finish, so that he could come in and help with the house stuff when we're done. So I do, and he doesn't (help me, that is). This is our pattern.

I think he keeps everything because he came from such a poor family - he literally dug around in trash bins behind restaurants to get food for his mom, cos his dad wasn't providing them any food.

So I guess it doesn't fit him too much. Someone did tell him once not long ago that he has ADD. It was just an observation, but it kind of fits, at least in terms of things he doesn't want to deal with, like finances or making plans for vacation. Or anything I want.

But really, this description fits him to a T:
Right Man Syndrome

He wants me to be happy. He just doesn't want to do it at the risk of admitting he's done anything wrong. And I've been battered down too long mentally to be able to make any sort of ultimatum. Heck, I can't even bring up the subject.

Cat, I know this isn't the answer to most of your problems but like any large set of problems you have to pick one and work on it and slowly knock them off the list.

To some extent, what you've described in the quote, is what I'm like. I like to do what I want to do when I want to do it. I don't get a big thrill out of doing what my W has asked me to do. I'd rather do what I know she wants done but isn't asking me to do.

For instance she's gone most Saturdays riding and that is when I'll try to do a lot of the housecleaning. I'm kind of stuck home with the kids anyways so I get them involved and we pick a floor and we clean it till it shines.

The reason I DO THIS is because I'm an admiration hound and I want her to be thrilled for what I've done. Doing the mundane where I get no thank you doesn't turn me on and provides little motivation for me. And yes I'm aware that I'm a big part of that being a little dysfunctional.

Anyways here's what I would suggest. Make yourself a big old "What I want to get done" list. Leave it somewhere where he's bound to see it. When my W does that I usually peruse the list and will try to knock an item or two off of there for her.

Maybe then he'd do them becase he'd feel he's doing it because it's his idea and he wants to do it for you ... not because you're asking but because he wants the extra credit that comes with doing things that are a surprise for you.

Just a thought that seems to work around our home.

You've got some hard work to do if you're going to change this. You can't expect him to change unless you change the dynamic of yourself that has put you in this place.

I'd love to see you get your courage up and start doing things you want to do. Don't allow yourself to be pent up like you are. You've allowed this to happen to yourself. I understand why 'because keeping the peace is easier than working through the confrontation'. But you've allowed yourself to be manipulated quite a bit. You've got a pretty big hole to climb out of. Try taking some really small baby steps. Hopefully that will allow you to build up some momentum.

Good luck.

Good luck.

Thanks, Alias. When he hooked up the VCR and TV in the exercise room, I came in and kissed him and thanked him. Later, when he was back on his computer again, I thanked him again for doing it. If I got any more demonstrative than that, he wouldn't believe I was sincere (I'm extremely non-demonstrative). I will try to find things that he does and make sure he knows how much I appreciate it.

The problem is, he does so little. He occasionally will cook dinner, maybe once a month, and I always thank him and tell him how good it is. Aside from that, he drops his clothes where he takes them off; he leaves towels on the floor. He opens his mail and leaves the trash whereever he happened to be. He stacks up his mail everywhere and never returns to it until he has created an emergency of having to find a particular bill; then I'm expected to drop everything and dig through all his piles everywhere to help him find it.

I've tried tidying up his piles and I get yelled at. I've asked him to pick up his trash and I get yelled at. I've moved some of his stuff so people coming over won't see it; I get yelled at. And yet he won't take the step to do it himself. It's like a big cat and mouse game, and he's determined not to give in. The only concessions I've been brave enough to do are when I do the laundry, I leave his hung clothes in the laundry room, and I've started leaving his folded clothes on his side of the bed to put away. Usually it will sit there for 4 or 5 days, until he blows up at me for not putting it away. Then I say, well, I've put away all the other laundry, along with all the other chores, I just assumed you wouldn't mind helping this one little bit. Every once in a while if he's sitting in bed watching tv, I'll dump a pile of towels on the bed and he'll fold them (he really has no excuse not to, and he knows it); but he won't put them away.

I've tried the list. I've asked him to help me write a list; "I don't need a stupid list." I've written a list and handed it to him, asking him to please help me out because I'm so stressed out that I need him to help with anything he'd like to help with; he never touches it again. I've written a list and left it on the counter for him to see; it sits there so long that it eventually gets covered with spaghetti sauce or whatever, over a week or two. I've even asked him point blank just to pick something that needs done, whatever he wants to do, and just do it; he disappears to a neighbor's house, sits down with his computer, or goes back to the 'river' in the back yard and works on it. (This river is something he supposedly built for me, because 20 years ago I bought a bridge kit to use in our back yard; I wanted a dry river bed; he told me not to put it together, that he would do it; it has never been unboxed; so last year he created this river bed, and BUILT a NEW bridge - not mine - to go over it.)

I know I just need to get the nerve to talk to him, but I just turn to jelly when I even think about it. I started my daughter with a therapist last week; I'm going to see how I feel about her and maybe I'll start going to see her, too, which should help. And I will find something to do outside the house, you're right. Thanks for the advice.

I guess I'm scaring people away by writing too much, huh?

So I'll just ask a quick question. MrCat gave D17 his prized camera to take to Louisiana for the weekend; she had already lost one of the exact same cameras about 3 years ago, and he had just this year found another one. She also had a camera and a phone stolen at school last year, seperate occasions (and this is the good school!).

He asked me if I thought he should loan it to her Friday, and I said if you do, don't blow up if it gets lost. Well, guess what? She swears she packed it, but it didn't come home. We tried calling her friend's mother 3 times last night and once this morning, and the lady won't answer the phone. But MrCat is going to California tomorrow, so I expect him to be asking for the camera tonight. I'm so wound up I'm nauseous, knowing the backlash we're going to deal with tonight I can't stop thinking about it. He's not physically abusive, but he can be very 'biting' when he's mad. And I understand why he would be, this time.

I know MB isn't meant to deal with abusive personalities, but I could use some help. How do I deal with this today?

Oh no please keep writing. It helps to get as much info as possible ... whether its facts or your feelings and thoughts. It all helps.

I really didn't know where to go with your sich. It is always difficult when dealing with someone who is so unwilling to change.

I will state this:

Just because he won't change doesn't mean you have to continue with the status quo. You should do what you feel you want to do and know will make you feel happy, healthy and whole.

As far as the camera why aren't you teaching your D about personal responsibility? I understand the camera might be expensive and all the more reason why 'swearing she packed it' isn't an acceptable response in of itself.

Don't you think she needs to be responsible and replace what was lost?

Hopefully if you teach her that then it will squash some of the fury you'll be exposed to from your volatile H.

And if he does become 'biting' you don't have to sit there and take it. I'm sure your D feels bad enough and if she accepts responsibility for her actions then there is no need to be 'biting'. I'd suggest you and her leave the room/home if he gets out of control.

You can't change what's happened nor can your D. All she can do is apologize and explain what she plans to do to make it right and maybe outline what she would do if she were ever given the chance again.

I have to ask ... what is going on with your D? It seems odd that she'd lose 3 cameras in in 3 years. The cynical side of me wants to suggest that she is giving these things away knowing all she has to put up with is more of the usual from her Dad (Mr. Biting). Sorry I know that is horribly presumptious seeing I know nothing about your D. The alternative is that she isn't very responsible when it comes to things that aren't hers.

The phone was stolen right in front of her while she was reaching in her locker on the first day of school last year(she had set it on her books on the floor next to her while she reached for something); it's an overcrowded school (3200 students) and stealing is a rampant issue there, has been since the day it opened, so I'm a little less stressed about that one. The first camera was lost at a restaurant amid a big group of people, and MrCat and I were there; we didn't think to look for it until we needed it a few days later. The second one was in her purse at school when she was in a dance recital, buried under her clothes in the changing room, a room that was supposed to be being supervised and locked (it wasn't, and we saw boys walking out of it but the school wouldn't do anything and of course the kids wouldn't say anything). She paid for it over a period of a few months, and got a new one for Christmas. This one is her father's, because we couldn't find an SD card for her camera Friday, so she took his.

I admit she's terrible about stuff, just like her father. He had his laptop in a grocery cart the other day, forgot it was there (!) and slammed the cart into the holder, and broke his computer. It's kind of a symbol of our life, I guess. I've been in depression so long I have a hard time staying on top of her to keep her stuff cleaned up, he refuses to clean up his stuff, and I fluctuate between getting mad at them for not being responsible and going around behind them and doing it myself because I can't stand the mess.

And before you say it, I know I need to go back and get on the AD meds; I called a month ago, and have been playing phone tag with the psychiatrist to get an appointment.

D is going to apologize to MrCat when they both get home tonight, unless I can get her friend's mother to ever answer the phone and she says it's still over there. Well, she's going to apologize anyway, but hopefully the news will be it's at her friend's house in Louisiana, and not that it's missing. I'm more concerned than usual because the camera/DVD/player/etc. is no longer made, and MrCat just found one, unsold, by accident at a company he does business with; so it's pretty special to him. But then, he shouldn't have loaned it to her in the first place, knowing that.

I'm just so tired of being upset over something every day. Anyway, thanks for the advice.

What's another alternative to these two. Neither of these is good for you or does anything to protect yourself. So what could you do differently ...

I have a suggestion but first I need more input. Where are these messes? Are they strewn all over the home?

Cat,

Does he really yell at you? Or is shouting different to you? You said he stopped shouting at D17...does that mean he continues to yell at you, as you stated repeatedly, in your post?

Have you read up on DJs here on MB? What I perceive in your posts is that he is the cause of your depression, which is impossible; if your IC says this, please get another IC right away. Very dangerous.

Each assumption you make about him (like working on the river instead of doing what you want him to do, when you want him to do it, in the way you want him to help you) is kicking your own butt, IMO.

He's has equal pain and fear as you do, I believe. His fear is failing you, experiencing being parented by you, not partnered, fearing you controlling him, trapping him into a no-win corner. My filter is that my DH was very much like this, though, without the spoiling freely part.

His pain and fear are valid...so are yours. To mitigate his, make assumptions and discount is to do so to your own. Which is the depressive cycle eating itself. Full of frustration, helplessness, resentment and sadness.

You say you are not demonstrative. Are you working on that? Is his EN for affection one of his top ones? How about admiration? Acceptance? How about your own?

Your DJ about being more demonstrative would mean not being believed...would you consider that has been your previous pattern? To act based on possible (predicted) response, not to your own code? This is a normal part of enmeshment. Not bad or wrong...just you enslaving yourself to another human being, predicating your actions on their past response...so neither of you are experiencing being whole, complete, equal partners...and can both be resentment factories because of this one choice...to manipulate the others' possible responses, including feelings, thoughts, beliefs and perceptions.

If he makes you, then you make him. This two-way street doesn't stop...doesn't go one way. Sounds to me like you're experiencing your marriage as if it does.

I strongly advise you choosing to not DJ anymore...not in your thoughts, beliefs, words or deeds. That's not who you really are...that's learned behavior from your own FOO...and as you said, there was dysfunction on both sides...may have been a high attraction when you met and fell in love. Changing from what was can be scary, foreign routines and patterns begin...can even feel like you'll lose loving feelings. Know you won't. You'll have more.

Have you found your own abusive behaviors yet?

You parented your H. You told him that if he chose to let her take it, he lost the right to complain if she lost it. I can see saying that to my child, not my equal partner.

I don't see you respecting your H...he knows. He's in a pattern...not in your control. Did you want to really say, "I don't want to give it to her. I want her to buy a disposable camera for this trip. I love her as much as always--I don't want to get in the way of her consequences anymore. What do you think?"

You make the request and let the outcome go.

His pain and suffering is as real as yours. Not in your control, either.

Your inner turmoil for the coming explosion...one you know well from each and every previous choice he's made which didn't turn out as he wanted...what's different in you? Do you have predetermined, progressive boundary enforcements for when he yells? What are your steps you hold YOURSELF to doing?

Your stomach won't ache, you won't tremble, when you can build trust in yourself to enforce your boundaries around yourself. When you don't want to live in I'm right/He's wrongville anymore...when you want to know your own power, respect your limits and live in real freedom and love.

Your choice. Not his. Not him doing to you. You are not a victim. You're a volunteer. Doesn't mean you remove yourself permanently, not all or nothing. Progressive...predetermined...and you will not be able to enforce if you are crossing these boundaries yourself.

Cross the boundary of respect, you won't be able to respectfully enforce. Part of that unyielding, unchangeable two-way street.

I believe you're here on MB because you're at the changing point in your life when you really, really want to stop betraying yourself and change your life experience. I believe you crave most what you're least giving. Great news...because you have control of your half. You can experience a thriving marriage. Because you're here, you're brave, and you're sharing your stuff.

Which is what we do in our marriage, too.

Welcome again...and thank you for making your own thread...and for helping others right off the bat.

LA

P.S. Long posts? What long posts? LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Let's see Olympic size, 'k? You're worth reading...long, short, and every size in between.

I think that right man syndrome and OCPD are basically the same thing.

Only he gets to decide what is RIGHT...the right thing to be working on at the moment...also making sure the document and graphics is just RIGHT. The other issue they have is they don't like to be told what to do...so you asking him to clean out the garage or giving him a list won't work. You have to sort of suggest, see if he is open, but not demand. Also use his characteristics as a tool against him...."Honey, one of the neighbors were walking by and they saw our garage and how full it is!" Appeal to his image to others.

MrAlias: I have tried asking him to pick up. I have tried putting everything he drops into a box, out of the way; it just overflows. I've tried stacking his piles and putting them off to the side; they just stay there, sometimes for years. I've tried going through his stuff; he yells. I've tried asking if we could do it together, even just one pile; he changes the subject or pretends I didn't say anything and if I repeat, he yells. I've tried asking him if we can organize his office and I offer to make hanging folders for his stuff; he ignores. Mind you, this is over a period of years, so it only gets brought up maybe once every 6 months.

He has stuffed papers, magazine, past work, old mail, etc. in hanging baskets I had on the wall; in several kitchen cabinets, behind the glasses and plates; covering two of the countertops in the kitchen at any given time; in about 6 of the drawers in the bedroom dresser; in two piles in the bedroom, size of each about 3 ft wide by 3 ft wide by 2 ft tall; under the dresser and the bedside table; under the coffee table; next to the fireplace; I can't even walk in his office without tiptoeing so as not to upset anything. We have a 2 car garage and another 1 car garage; all is filled with his boxes, stuff he won't get rid of, things he hasn't gotten around to doing anything with, boxes full of his sales receipts from a job he had 30 years ago that he won't get rid of...does that give a better picture of the mess?

He never ever goes back and attends to any of his piles. He likes to be forward thinking, working on the next day's work/success, not remembering yesterday's. I know that that is one of the real issues, that he doesn't want to 'deal,' and that it is quite possibly tied into being married to me and us feeding off of each other. And his hatred of/need for his mother's love, which she never gave. And his assuming I'm taking her place by trying to get things done. He's actually told me that if he's feeling down, he has to go and accomplish something to feel better, like the yard project - but he doesn't agree that accomplishing control over his messes would make him feel better. I think he's just overwhelmed.

A little more info, he talks to me all.the.time. My phone bill is 95% calls from him. I'm his only friend. He tells me everything, constantly, every day, about his work, which is how he identifies himself. He values my advice, he has me proof all his work (usually at midnight, as he's a night person), and he takes my advice, except when I tell him I disagree with him, like not paying off our bills when we sold our last house; then he gets defensive and yells at me. So as long as I'm his great supporter, everything's fine.

LA, I'm going to have to get back to you later; have to get back to work.

So in a nutshell you feel controlled by this man because he yells, raises his voice and says unpleasant things to you?

LA: Wow, lots of stuff! Yes, he yells at me; if I get mad enough I yell back, which D17 hates. This may happen once every 2 weeks or so. He almost never does with D17; he typically is just more angry with her than yelling; angry and...always expecting her to be wrong. Like he generalizes that he has to wait for her every morning; while she tells me that she has to help him get ready most mornings because he can never find his stuff (big surprise in our house). He says things that make him look like a victim; I'm sure he feels like a victim in our marriage, since neither of us has been able to take positive steps.

My depression: What I feel is that, because I have no self esteem, and have lost any confidence to weather his outbursts over 30 years, I have centered my life around not being the cause of any outbursts. I plan my day to be available to him so as not to be chided on NOT being available, based on 30 years of him saying "why couldn't you have done that at lunch; why do you have to go now, when I'm home?". If I hear him come home, I get off the computer before he can see that I'm on it, based on 30 years of him saying "What have you been doing all day?". If I sense one of his frustrating days coming on, where he's going to be touchy about something, I warn my daughter not to talk back to him; and then hate myself for perpetuating the abusive cycle in front of her and for not being a better role model. If I have to tell him something he doesn't want to hear, like how I really want to pay off our credit cards from the money when we sold our house instead of him investing it in a retirement fund, I try to say that someone else thinks we should pay them off, an authority, because if an idea comes from me, it's wrong (that one didn't work, though, he just started yelling at me about the accountant who I said told me the same thing; although I DID tell him he didn't have the right to yell at me about her).

So, yeah, I do believe that he is the center of my depression. I fully realize that the REAL center is my own inabilities, but I also can't imagine how I'd be in this fix if I hadn't married him.

Like I said when I first posted, I know it's on my shoulders and it's my job to change me, but I've been deflated for so long - and had no courage in the first place - that I'm practically paralyzed in terms of taking any steps. The times that I have tried to take steps, like calmly telling him I feel overwhelmed and would like him to take one of the chores off my shoulders, he flat out refused.

Demonstrative: I initiated SF for him Friday night, I sat on the couch beside him instead of in my chair Saturday, I held hands with him in the mall Saturday, I kissed him and thanked him twice for setting up a VCR Sunday, and I kissed him goodbye today. I've been trying. But most days he comes home and sits straightaway on the couch, turns on the tv, and starts working on his computer. All night. Usually til midnight, if not all night. It's his buffer, I suppose. But if he has a focus, like the computer, he snaps or ignores or reacts sarcastically if one of us interrupts him. Frankly, it's hard to be more demonstrative than that to someone I don't like any more.

After the one month that he went to counseling with me and realized she was saying that he should share ownership of some of the issues, and he left in a huff, he refuses to discuss any emotional issues, so I have no idea what his ENs are. If I had to guess, it would be sex, devotion to him, and affection. Any time I talk about anything about me, he changes the subject. Seriously. We tried to fix that a few years ago, when I pointed out that I was feeling underappreciated when every time I started speaking he would fidget, look around instead of at me, cut me off and start talking about something he was thinking about. That lasted about 2 months, him noticing how I got upset when he overrode the conversation, and he would stop and ask me about my day or whatever. Then he started forgetting to notice, and I didn't step up and keep up my side. So I'm back to not talking about myself any more.

I actually was giving her money to buy a disposable camera, when he said, no, no, she should take mine. I said, are you sure? If she loses it, you're going to get mad. Maybe that was the wrong approach, but it was a self-defense measure for someone in my shoes, so that I could say later, 'please don't include me in your anger when you find out the camera is missing; I tried to point out the danger of giving it to her.' Which is where I'll be tonight, I guess.

The boundaries I'm trying to come to grips with is to not get caught up in the yelling, which is actually a safety vehicle for me; when I yell back to 'defend myself' I'm able to say things I would never say face to face. I know I'm supposed to say, it makes me feel XYZ when you raise your voice, etc. So I'm actively trying to work on that.

I know full well I have terrible coping strategy and that we feed off each other and that I don't give him much of anything any more. But 10-20 years ago, when I was working my tail off to be proactive in the marriage, it wasn't any better, because it was basically me just giving up any identity and going along with the way he wanted things; which doesn't help him become happier, either. It's only because I've been educating myself that I'm even here.

I'm trying to bring what I learn into it, since he won't participate knowingly. I know I have to take the steps. I recognize that the more depressed I get, the less he's getting from me, frankly because I resent him so much. And I know I'm making excuses. It's just hard to be the kind of person that steps up when I've never in my life even liked myself and considered myself worthy of doing it. Lots of father abandoning me, brother criticizing me (still), mother expecting me to fail. Lots of times of getting rid of my stuff (god! the stuff I've thrown away in fits of despair) and thinking of a way to just end it all that wouldn't impact my daughter and mother as severely, rather than just deal with it.

That's why I asked at the beginning for some advice on getting 'me' fixed. Thanks for the ideas. Lots to think on.

No, I feel controlled by my fear of confrontation. It drives most everything I do, this fear of experiencing a bad encounter, encounters that have repeated themselves over the last 30 years so often that I recognize the patterns. And I hate myself for it. Yet I'm afraid.

No one likes confrontation. Why does there have to be confrontation? If there is confrontation, chances are that you are not protecting your boundaries in a respectful way.

Can you point me to some helpful information on boundaries?

Cat, when you have addressed me, you come across as confident. But you describe yourself as being insecure. What was it that gave you the courage to express your views so assertively with me? Can that same ingredient be cultivated in your marriage so you can function without feeling threatened?

LOL, PF, what you really mean is I come across as a know it all! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BTW, have I apologized sufficiently for telling you what to do? I feel like I came to this place, a newbie, and just started spouting off wisdom as if I owned the place.

No, seriously, I've been reading about all this stuff for a good 15 years, nodding my head, and saying, yep, I'm gonna go right home and do it. And then I get home, and my mom kicks in in my head, saying "don't you know you can't talk to people that way; what gives you the right?" and I just turn and walk away.

It's just something I have to work on, convincing myself I have just as much right to live as anyone else. But it's hard to get to there, when you're here, you know?

what you really mean is I come across as a know it all!

I really didn’t see you that way. But was that how you saw yourself?

kicks in in my head,
Can you describe how your mom does this ?

what gives you the right?"
Can you come up with an answer for this ?

I just turn and walk away
Would you really rather stay and engage?

Cat,

So you believe in yelling and being yelled at, is that correct?

Would you consider that you allow yourself to verbally abuse and be abused? Wanna change that boundary? Doesn't sound to me that's who you really are...sounds more like you permitting yourself to abuse your partner from habitual permissions when a certain level of feeling is reached in you.

Reacting to your feelings, not acting from your beliefs.

Act, don't react.

And you told H that DD17 doesn't like him when he shouts and he stopped...yet you permitted him to continue with you, and you with him...setting the example that DD17 is the most important person in your family...not your marriage, not respect and that you believe what you won't do to one person, you'll do to another and that's okay?

So DD17 will not believe the waiter story. If her boyfriend abuses the waiter at a restaurant, she'll feel protected and relieved she's not a waiter. And shocked when he abuses her. After all, she's not his waiter.

Just see where you are not aligned to your beliefs here.

You believe yelling at DD17 is not okay...and yelling at you, is, is that correct?

From what you described, it isn't a matter of your H expecting DD17 to be wrong...he expects rejection, exclusion, to be found inadequate and unacceptable. If he can be right, then he's acceptable, included, adequate...so being right is more important than anything else.

Very much about living right/wrong instead of a living being.

You can see where he generalizes to DD17. Can you see in your post where you generalize him? I'm not saying this to say "Hey, you're doing it, too!" I'm saying this because what gets to you most in others is in you. Look up the "Owning All Your Villagers Thread"...it's a human thing, not a Cat thing, 'k?

What we do to others, we will do to ourselves...two-way street, no one is exempt due to status or location...we are all humans. This is a human thing.

Great part is when you change what you do, revoke permissions and implement other permissions...then everything changes, too...upward spirals are real. Just like downward ones are.

What I get from your other posts is that you feel like a victim, he feels like a victim and DD17 feels like a victim.

Chosen perspective...find the false payoff...and you'll stop wanting to choose this victim perspective.

Which sets a new, honest and open example...you change, everything changes...because the interaction between the three of you changes...the dance changes when you change your steps.

"My depression: What I feel is that, because I have no self esteem, and have lost any confidence to weather his outbursts over 30 years, I have centered my life around not being the cause of any outbursts."

Your therapist have you working on knowing the difference between a feeling (an emotion) and a belief? In reality, you're saying What I choose to believe is that, because i did not build my self-esteem, I do not feel confident enough in myself and my choices to draw healthy boundaries around how others treat me. I have chosen to abandon and degrade myself by making my highest priority to avoid conflict in any form. I understand I have a lot of amends to make for all I've done to myself through my choices."

Reasonable you don't feel confident in yourself...you've been brutalizing you for decades. When you stop, you're gonna feel dizzy. Please choose to stop. Do you know what conflict avoiders fear most? You'd think conflict...it's not. It's connection. We connect through conflict, too. God gave us many ways...that's one of them. Fear of connection, fear of true intimacy, well, it's what we avoid...just like fear of abandonment...and every day, in each choice we make, we are reacting to those two fears...living reactively, feeling out of control, done to and wronged...signals we really are doing them to ourselves.

Get your signals. They are coming to you from love...real love of yourself.

"I plan my day to be available to him so as not to be chided on NOT being available, based on 30 years of him saying "why couldn't you have done that at lunch; why do you have to go now, when I'm home?"."

Reality: "I choose to plan my day to be available to him, abandoning myself, so I can manipulate him into not choosing to chide me, though he may chide me anyway. His choice. I have made this same choice for 30 years, expecting different results. I've felt crazy for a long time. I want to be right (righteous) more than loved. I'm safer being in the right than vulnerable to just being loved. I hear in his requests for consideration, control. He hears them in mine. He fears abandonment, and I know this, as much as I fear intimacy. I fear being rebuked, chastised, guilted, shamed...so I choose to believe I can make him not do or say any of those things. I choose to lie to myself, to live in fantasy, that I can make him and he makes me. It's not working for me anymore."

"If I hear him come home, I get off the computer before he can see that I'm on it,"

Reality: "I lie to my H regularly. I lie by omission and commission. I gaslight my H and blame him for making me gaslight him."

"based on 30 years of him saying "What have you been doing all day?". If I sense one of his frustrating days coming on, where he's going to be touchy about something, I warn my daughter not to talk back to him; and then hate myself"

Reality: You hate yourself for many things. Loving yourself is not your highest priority. Your daughter cannot learn her power and limits because you don't own yours. He's not the one abusing her...you are. You are teaching her to be a victim, to manipulate others, to avoid conflict, to be the cause, control and cure for OTHERS' actions. You have taught her distorted power (she can CAUSE and CONTROL and CURE)...with no respect to her real limits...where her power ends and others begin. She is not separate and equal to everyone else...she's more or less, and it fluctuates.

Does for you.

Change your stuff and she WILL learn her power. First, you gotta know your own.

"for perpetuating the abusive cycle in front of her and for not being a better role model. If I have to tell him something he doesn't want to hear, like how I really want to pay off our credit cards from the money when we sold our house instead of him investing it in a retirement fund, I try to say that someone else thinks we should pay them off, an authority,"

Reality: You lie directly to your H, negate and abandon yourself abusively and blame him for doing it to you. You are not honest with yourself enough to own your own ideas, desires, wants, needs and goals. You lie a lot and it's your pattern for more than 30 years...pleasing is equal to earning love...pleasing well enough keeps you safe...when every single time it's a lie, disrespectful and DISCOUNTS your partner and yourself. Can't do one without doing it to the other, right?

"because if an idea comes from me, it's wrong (that one didn't work, though, he just started yelling at me about the accountant who I said told me the same thing; although I DID tell him he didn't have the right to yell at me about her)."

Reality: I continue to lie by saying he doesn't have the right to yell at me because...which means I choose to believe he has the right when it's appropriate, which gives me the right to yell at him.

Change your beliefs...yelling tells another person you don't feel heard without stating your stuff. It's acting out your stuff instead of owning it. Not right for anyone...happens when we're kids and don't yet know our stuff from others' stuff...very often it's what adults choose to do, to act out or in, because they DIDN'T learn their emotions come to them, from them, about themselves.

You now know. Yelling is as offlimits as hitting (it's verbal arm wrestling, isn't it?), as unacceptable as sarcasm, sneering, mocking, cursing, forgetting, silent treating (don't know how to conjugate that one right now), defining others, name-calling, labeling, lying, discounting, assuming...correct?

You do not allow YOURSELF to do these things...because they are not a right (has NOTHING to do with right/wrong)...they are a choice.

You are now aware these are abusive and will not abuse. If you do, you own your choice immediately, you say what you did, why you did it and why you will not do it again.

And you do so for YOU...so you can live in real freedom and love...in reality. Verbal abuse is participating in fantasy...pretends to communicate and doesn't...acting out/in does NOT communicate. Stating does. Owning your own stuff and using "I" statements...that's reality.

No fantasy. Lots of intimacy though...you may feel terrified...just before you feel liberated. You liberating yourself.

My depression was anger turned inward...was from my repeated choices to please to earn love (and punishment), to self-negate and erase, to manipulate others 24/7 to get what I needed...without a shred of respect for myself or others...and to know God made in me a whole, complete, equal, separate, and marvelous human being. Not a human doing.

Until I found how DISRESPECTFUL and harmful I was to others by doing for them, managing their stuff, abandoning my own, I did not stop. Know you are doing damage to yourself, your H, and your DD17.

I don't believe you want to damage...I believe that's the one thing you do not intend to do...never to be selfish, self-centered or harm others through neglect. Oh, except yourself. Okay to neglect, beat, berate, yell, speak sarcastically and degrade yourself. As long as you don't do that to others.

How close am I?

Depression can result from harming yourself for years through your belief...for your authentic self didn't do one thing to deserve your ire, your punishments, your stuff. Your self-image, however, played a big part. Learn the difference. Learn your innocence...your trueness...and know you are both. Which means, so are others.

Two-way street.

I believe he's the center of your depression because you MADE him your center. You looked God right in the eye and said, "Your creation isn't good enough. It's broken and defective. I will live THROUGH H and HE will be responsible for my stuff. I'm killing your creation."

That's really gonna hurt inside...such incredible sadness...nearly to stillness...paralyzation...beating down what God's hand made...not only from love...OF love.

And you call it crap, deny and disown your very self...making someone else your idol, your god, worshipping so you will feel through them, experience and be defined through them.

Which crushes the other person...for they are responsible for their own feelings, experience and can only define themselves.

You are blaming someone else for you choosing make your H your god. I say this because I know I did this myself. My filter. The remorse...so painful...when I woke up.

Thank God I woke up. God is my center...he's in me, part of me...no replacement needed or required...learning every day how he made me whole, complete, not defective...no lost or bad parts...bringing all of me together, as I already was, in his hands. Already forgiven for it, too, btw.

So are you.

I had depression from age 8 to 32...chronic from 32 to 36. I know the physical parts and the emotional one...the mental and the spiritual...all affected...not all out of my control. I supplemented. Until I chose differently.

When we wipe ourselves out, we have a great deal of anger turned inward, toward ourselves. I also believe that the verbal abuse we do to ourselves feeds, substantiates, deepens and continues the depression.

The center of it is not your inabilities...you don't have inabilities. You have abilities and choices. You are capable.

You have courage...you don't act from it. You are brave. You don't act from your bravery for you react to your fear.

Choices, not condition.

And I only believe this because this was me, too. Choosing to believe I was defective, powerless, wrong...making my life as much about who is right and who is wrong...blaming, feeling blamed and blame-shifting.

You know you aren't a monster...nor is your H or anyone else. You know you are capable...what's different now is you choosing this belief all the way to your bones...and hearing all the other ones you adopted (you aren't capable, you're unable) long before you ever met your H.

You can choose to stop doing that which you will resent...be it chores, words or deeds. Anything. That's you and your own code. Your DD17 can do chores, too. I'm sure she does. And has them and doesn't. Why am I sure? I have three sons, youngest of which turns 18 tomorrow.

When you say you've taken steps and didn't change the outcome, you're telling yourself that your steps didn't matter because the outcome didn't change. Which do you have control over?

When you feel overwhelmed, that's a signal to you that you are requiring of yourself too much. You have over-committed yourself. Not up to him to get in the way of your consequences for your choices. Up to you to choose differently.

Do you cherish yourself enough to not do that which you will resent? To know fantasy from reality?

Do you know how to define and hold yourself to your real priorities?

Sounds like you're holding yourself to act affectionately even when you don't feel affectionate. Big kudos. Does it feel out of your comfort zone? Are you noticing if you feel pleased with yourself? Do you feel your act to connect gives you the feeling of connection, if you don't look at the outcome?

You haven't been trying...you've been doing. Difference between reality (I tried) and reality (I did this). You did it. What was your intent for acting affectionately?

You don't like yourself and you don't believe you like your H right now. What you do to yourself, you will do to others. If you continue giving to get, you continue the self-betrayal and disrespect. I think you're really sick of making those choices.

And I see where instead of focusing on your intent, your choice to act from your own choice, you focused on his response...you swung back to "most days he does" instead of staying on focus with what you chose to do differently. That sinks our boat every time.

Your chosen belief is that any time (like saying all the time) you share your stuff, he changes the subject. Does that mean when you share "I love summer. I love the light" and he says, "I'm hungry" he's changing the subject? Or sharing his stuff?

You judge his stuff...so you judge yours. You will tell yourself you speaking about yourself is a turn off to him...a raging DJ in your own head...not reality. If you cannot hear his sharing as his...how do you know you're sharing your stuff as yours?

Statements are not conversation...no subject. You acting to connecting, with intimacy, affirms yourself. Is not based on his possible response. Just like you yelling doesn't entitle him to yell...it's you verbally abusing and him verbally abusing. Each from their own choice.

Drive-by O&H helps you to act from honesty so you can live in it. Doesn't make you the subject of anything...shares who you are with your partner and you let the outcome go. You aren't sharing to get anything from him...you're sharing because humans are here to know and be known.

You're doing what is within your control, your half.

You choose to not share. You choose to not connect. There's a payoff in there. Find it. Find out if it's really valid for you or if it's more of you tricking yourself.

We lie in patterns to ourself...and self-deception is the hardest nut to crack. Well worth the effort, I promise you.

Why ask your H if he's sure about any choice he makes? What he says he will do, get out of his way. Respect he knows, he's sure, he's choosing. Then maybe you'll respect yourself, know when you're sure and when YOU are choosing.

Self-defense measures...how are they working for you? Feel protected? Defended? Safe? They are more fantasy. You believe you're covering your own tushie...which is nowhere near love or truth. Blame, like offense, has to be taken. Watch how much your hands scoop it up...and trace it to the belief...because at the base of taking blame/offense, is false power. If we are to blame, we have the power to fix it. If we are the cause, we are the cure, the control.

We are not.

CYA is about right/wrong...you not wanting to be wrong, be blamed...learn more about that fantasy in yourself. Where you are all the relationship or three-quarters...or nothing...it will fluctuate. Does change you have been, are, and will be only half. That's it. No more. No less.

You believe you can be included in your H's anger. His anger is his own...about him, from him, for him. YOU have to put yourself in there.

Your boundaries go around your code to not act out your emotions...state, not demonstrate. When you enforce these, you'll do the same with your H acting out on his. You won't until you change your choices. You'll respect his anger as his...at himself, about his own choices.

His anger is valid.

Him acting it out or in isn't.

No need to CYA yourself over his anger. See the difference?

Since the "When you do this, I feel this" isn't working for you...not keeping you honest and open...why not stop that for now? Why not listen and repeat...revoke your permission to say "you" at all until you're confident in your own "I" statements, from lots and lots of practice.

Why not amend your choice to parent your partner tonight? "I realize how often I am not looking out for our marriage, like over this camera incident. I didn't act from respect of your choice. I parented, not partnered. That's not what I want. I respect your choices."

Then if he yells, you can say, "I know I've yelled at you countless times. I've changed my permissions now and I will not yell at anyone again. Yelling is verbal abuse. Unless you lower your voice so I can really hear you, I will remove myself for 20 minutes until I can get my flooding feeling settled. Then I will return to listen to you."

If he doesn't, you remove yourself...and you make sure you're back in 20 minutes. You make sure you do not yell. And if he continues, you calmly say, "I hear you yelling again. I am removing myself now for two hours and will be back then to listen to what you're communicating."

And you make sure you do remove and return. Whether he speaks or not...may not have anything to say then.

Listen and repeat when he's not yelling.

What you have in your toolbox are coping strategies...I believe what God is pointing you towards are living skills...very different. Coping from fear; living from love. You're ready for the change, Cat. I know you are. I know you're ready for true freedom, authentic love and a thriving life.

This is like birthing pains.

Well worth it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Well, until they are teenagers.

Please consider you gave up your true identity in childhood...when you pushed aside the you handmade by God, to recreate yourself to be safe. You didn't know then that you were love...you changed yourself, constructed a new you, to get love. Not nuts or alone or wrong. You literally disowned parts of yourself, put there by God, and lost parts of yourself from focusing where you had no power. Now you're coming together, all of you, as you were originally...we come together by choice.

You did the best you knew how with what you knew then; when you know better, you do better.

What are you reading again to change your choice of perspective, belief, perception? What did you read 10-20 years ago which gave you such passion for changing your half of the marriage? All your efforts will be in vain when your intent is not within your control. If you were set on changing the marriage and not your half, you were doomed to fail, weren't you? If you were set to change yourself to make him love you enough to love yourself...you were doing different with the old intent and goal, weren't you? Where you had no control?

Wasn't you up disrespecting he was making his choices, and you making yours, was it? What is different this time?

I hear you saying you are educating him on the sly. Really? Being sneaky with him because you're sneaky with you? Beware the self-deception...you're missing the focus that you continue your choice to make him your center.

And you already said, you know he's not...you are.

Great catch, btw.

Listen to yourself...you are wise...you know everything I'm sharing with you...already in you...let your own knowledge come home to yourself. Your own homecoming.

You know you're making excuses...because you hate hearing his excuses. You can see in him more plainly, obviously, than in yourself. He is less to be afraid of than you. That's the core belief when we live through others, erasing our own identity. I know. I remember.

Change your core belief and you WILL change your experience.

Control is not respectful. Cause and cure are NOT real...not respectful of reality.

We often crave annihilating our existence when we symbolically annihilate ourselves daily...through sacrifice, choosing to do that which we will resent, DJing, AO'ing, the deception...and it's our urge to get our attention to stop making these same choices...to come home to our real selves, to cherish and know we ARE real, we are significant...we ripple around the world.

You know that. Your experience comes from all the unnecessary, unjustified bashing you have done to your innocent self...unravel those...do the amends to yourself...this alone will change your half of the marriage and your entire experience on this earth.

Choose to believe you are brave enough, dedicated enough, that you darn well ARE enough...for God didn't make no junk, no where, no how.

Choose your beliefs...they were always your own choice, even before you knew you had one.

Then act from them...for they determine your thoughts, which determine your words, which determine your deeds...which determine your destiny.

There's on fixing you, Cat. You're not broken.

You never were, are, or will be.

Sure can experience as if you are.

Feeling afraid is valid. You feel fear.

Acting from it is not.

LA

Thanks, I needed that today. Gonna take me about 30 more read throughs to soak it all in, but I get the gist. Will be enough to see me through tonight.

Hey, PF, just wanted to come back and respond, since I didn't yesterday - had a meeting all night and other stuff. Anyway, no, I don't see myself as a know it all, it's just that I felt like some of my responses to people have been pretty forceful, but I don't really have the success ratio to know if what I'm saying is really the right answer, so after I've made all these great answers all week since finding this place, I got to thinking, maybe I'd better become more familiar (i.e., finish reading everything, which will take a awhile) with MB before I tell you how to fix your problems. I was thinking that I may in fact be giving wrong advice, at least according to MB. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As for my mom, she was the kind who patted me on the head and said something like, "That's a really good picture you drew; I'm sure you know what it's supposed to be, and that's all that matters." It was hard to have an answer to 'what gives you the right' when the person who's supposed to be believing in me pretty much doubted I could amount to anything. She loved me; she just wasn't a 'kid person'; never played a single game with me. That's why I've been trying to learn everything I can about why she would be that way and why I am my way. As for staying and engaging, isn't that the point? To learn to interact with your people and resolve conflict and be happy in a healthy way?

FWIW, following reading y'all's posts last night, I first apologized to D17 for not being the adult and keeping this type of thing from getting out of hand. I then went home after my meeting to find out that MrCat had taken the camera out of D17's bag and had it all the time. I didn't say anything, because I wanted to think about what everyone has written here. This morning, I told him what had happened; that we've been scouring the house and calling everyone she came in contact with. He asked why we didn't just ask him and I told him the truth, that we were afraid that he would get angry and we were trying to mitigate it if at all possible by finding the camera. We've had this talk before, probably 5 times in the last 10 years, that his anger is an issue with us and that we do things that we think will protect us from being the target of that anger; each time, he is surprised that we see him that way, and then he gradually forgets about it and goes back to being angry. (When I say angry, I mean that he is just generally mad at the world; you hear a news story, you just absorb it - he hears that story and he discusses how screwed up the people in the story are, how they must be crooks, how society is falling apart, how someone needs to go to jail...every conversation is like that. I'm guessing he feels better about himself by deciding that others are worse off.)

Anyway, when D17 came downstairs he brought it up, said we should have asked him...and then apologized! I think this is the second time in 30 years he has apologized. So this past week of paying attention to MB and making a conscious effort to not do the wrong things, and to do the right things, is a good step. And, LA, it didn't happen all that often, but I am determined to not yell again. Thanks again.

LOL, LA, just had to tell you since we talking about long posts, I printed out your post from yesterday so I could keep it with me and absorb it - 8 pages long!

catperson:

If what you are trying isn't working, try something else!

Why not hire a maid? Tell H that you can take no more, and that you had to have some help.

When he sees the bill, he may decide that it is "worth it" to help out more!

Hi Scott,
I actually am in the process of getting my house more organized, so that a housecleaner can do a good job; as it is, he/she would have to move stuff out of the way, dust around piles, etc. I could start now, but I'm frankly embarrassed at how the house looks. I couldn't do it before this summer, because (1) my husband got laid off 3 1/2 years ago, and I've been paying a lot of his bills and he only this summer finally got a great job, and (2) we moved out of our last house 4 years ago and MrCat just this spring got it fixed up and ready to sell and sold it, so we've been paying bills on two houses for 4 years. So we've been doing without a lot of stuff. The good side of that equation is that we were upper middle class before, and not having money the last 4 years has gone a long way toward ensuring D17 didn't turn out to be a spoiled brat, since she had to pay for anything she wanted! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But, thanks for the suggestion, and I am definitely planning to get one. It's one of the positive steps I'm taking for myself; I deserve it.

Cat,

I'm laughing with you about the length of my post. I trigger to anyone saying "I know this is long" because I really do long. I read and post long. Sometimes, I don't do short.

LOL

I'm sorry for killing trees. I feel honored you choose to put that much effort. I know I'm work.

Seems to me you're seeing how many assumptions you make, the time and effort those DJs consume in your life...I remember them taking up all my time...seriously. The difference in managing life and living it honestly.

You were really honest in your response to H. He was in his...he hears you...takes time for him to get his own stuff. I believe he loves you tremendously and working through his own P/A behaviors is difficult for him.

Could just be me projecting, of course.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

In your last post to Scott (hi, scott!) I perceive your marriage and family are hitting a new stride.

The other house is sold.
DH is working at a great job.
DD17 got to know different experiences
You still have a great job (is that correct?)
You're still married.

And you want to clean your house before you have someone in to clean.

I get it, btw.

Sounds like clean new slates for partnering. Fertile ground for changes. I like the way you guys sold your second house...we ended up in the same boat as you were in, only we sold it for a big loss. I'm glad you appreciate your H did that.

Prepare yourself to live in abundance, Cat. You're soaking in it.

((((Cat))))

LA

Anyway, no, I don't see myself as a know it all, it's just that I felt like some of my responses to people have been pretty forceful

The “force” came across as confidence. That’s actually a good thing.

but I don't really have the success ratio to know if what I'm saying is really the right answer,

It’s ultimately my job to decide what the right answer is. On this forum, none of us are councilors. Bad counseling can be a bad thing but we should not see each other as counselors, only peers. So you are not responsible for damaging me if you gave me bad advice. So if you believe in something your shouldn’t feel inferior because you might not be right, it’s how you believe and it’s okay. I the thread about my D TR is making a case for me to apologize to D. TR knows that she can be direct and persistent with me and it’s unlikely that I will get offended as long as she is respectful. I will listen to TR and consider what she says. But I hold onto to my beliefs unless I feel conviction or can gain insight about how my thinking is flawed. I do however carry holding onto my beliefs to the extreme, another term for this is stubbornness and it’s not necessarily a good thing.

I was thinking that I may in fact be giving wrong advice, at least according to MB.

It’s my job to read MB and to learn the concepts. If I have not done that I have no one to blame but myself.

It was hard to have an answer to 'what gives you the right'

LA, gave you a good answer. You are good and you have the “right” because God made you in the image of him and you are good.

As for staying and engaging, isn't that the point? To learn to interact with your people and resolve conflict and be happy in a healthy way?

Exactly.

Just wanted to share something. I've discovered that MrCat is most receptive (read: not grouchy) in the morning getting ready for work. So this morning, I commented that the time share company with which we had scheduled some vacation time is only open to call them between 8 and 5. (He needed to reschedule a vacation he set up because we found out D17 will be taking finals those days and can't miss school; our district changed schedule this summer, after he had booked it; anyway, he was supposed to have taken care of it all week but has never even mentioned it)

MrCat, as is typical, didn't make a single sound after I said that. He had been talking about his work (which is all he ever talks about), and I saw a break, so I mentioned the time share. He quit talking, went into the bathroom, came back in, continued getting ready for work. Then started talking about work again.

So I waited another minute or so, and said,
"Can I make an observation?"
"What?"
"I've noticed that whenever I talk about something not work related, you don't acknowledge that I've said anything."
"I acknowledged you."
"No. You didn't say anything. You walked out of the room."
"Well, I heard you. 8 to 5."
"But I don't know if you heard me, if you don't say so. And if I have to ask again if you heard me, you get angry. So I need to know if you heard me."

He didn't answer, but at least we had a decent discussion about it. Maybe not the most graceful, MB-proper way to do it. But it's a step.

Cat,

Just a quick observation but it might help you to ask a question of him if you're expecting a reply from him.

Commenting that the time share company was open from 8 to 5 sounded like a statement and doesn't necessarily require a response from him. Granted most spouses would acknowledge with some kind of gesture but yours doesn't appear to be one of them.

What were you looking for? Is it his responsibility to call this company? If it is are you afraid to ask something of him ... does he not respond well to you pointing out things he needs to do?

If this call is important then I see no problem in you coming right out and asking (in a nice way) when he's going to take care of it. Hold him accountable to his word but in a polite way.

Interesting that you should mention that today. My H does the same sort of thing, doesn't give any sort of reply when I say something or ask something. I've told him that I don't know if he heard me and that's why I repeat myself; I've told him I think it's a bad example.

Just yesterday, in the parent-teacher conferences, the teachers said the biggest behavior problem with our kids is that they don't reply when the teachers talk to them, and that is very disrespectful and unacceptable!

I looked at H and said "They get that from him." The teacher said "Oh, you have to stop! I scold my brother for the same thing! It is setting a very bad example for the kids. It's disrespectful. You need to get together on this and enforce discipline, don't let the kids have that attitude and don't do that yourself."

I think it is reasonable to expect the other person to give a response to a comment, even if it wasn't phrased in the form of a question. (This isn't Jeopardy!) For example:

"Oh, by the way, that company we need to call is only open 8-5."
--"Oh yes, I keep forgetting to call. I'll try to get to it today, thanks for reminding me."

or,
"Oh, by the way, that company we need to call is only open 8-5."
--"Oh I forgot! Look, I've got too much going on today, is there any way you could take care of it?"

or at least,
"Oh, by the way, that company we need to call is only open 8-5."
--"Uh-huh." (Think Tim the Tool Man - at the very least, a grunt.)

What's even worse, is when I *don't* repeat myself and something bad happens, he claims he didn't hear me. I really think this is passive/aggressive behavior.

The main reason I barely speak to him about anything besides his work, is we have this issue where he acts like I want something from him all the time. He has a big issue about that with his mom - she always demanded that he do everything for her, while the two younger kids never had to do anything. And even when he did do what she wanted, it was wrong, not good enough, the others could have done it better...This lasted up to about 2 years ago when he just cut ties with her.

We've discussed that he equates me with her; he kind of acknowledges it; but it doesn't change his defensiveness, any time anything needs to be done. And I mean anything. I've asked him to set up a VCR in our exercise room for over 4 years now; he just did it last week. He has never hung up the curtain rod from 4 years ago. He never hung up the flower boxes I asked him to hang 3 years ago. Even if I asked him to put his Q-tip in the trash (he leaves them everywhere), he glares at me and just leaves it on the counter, I guess to prove that he doesn't have to do what I want. When I ask him why he does that, he just pretends he didn't hear me. He's severely into avoidance - of anything he 'has' to do that relates to the family. Everyone else, he bends over backward to accommodate, and look good in front of.

So, yes, asking him a question gets a brusque, if not rude, reply from him. Maybe I should just order him around like his mom. I have to steel myself whenever I can find no other way to get something done, and have to ask him for something, because I know it's going to be a confrontation.

In this particular instance, we had already discussed that he needed to call them, as I didn't know if he wanted to change his reservation, and he didn't know until he talked to them to see what else he could get. That was Monday. Of course, by now, half of the other openings I had emailed him about on Monday are probably gone. Which is why we almost never go on vacation.

Ugh. Sorry he's that way. What a crappy thing to have to live with.

It sort of makes me wonder why you'd want to ... but I hesitate to ask that because that isn't going to help you through the conflict or improve the R.

You shouldn't enable his bad behavior. I know it's easier said then done but if it is something important, something he NEEDS to do, then you shouldn't let his bullying you around (afraid to deal with his own demons) stop you from asking him to do it.

Sorry, I know the correct answer is to have you ask and some how put a boundary around his horrible reaction ... I'm just not sure what you should do when he crosses that boundary ... other than getting angry right back at him (not helpful I know).

If he is an OCPD like I suspect, then he doesn't like to be told what to do. Mentioning the hours like you did is a good way to handle it. However, I agree with you that if they don't acknowledge that you said something, then later they will claim they never heard it (my DD14 does this!).
In his mind, saying "OK" might be the equivelent of saying "Yes I will do this today", so saying nothing is the same as not committing to anything which is what he would prefer.

Can you call the time share people?

Thanks for all the advice, guys. I have called the time share people, it's just that this particular decision revolves around whether he wants to keep the 4 days he reserved to go skiing, when D17 can't go. I offered for the two of us to go, romantic getaway and all, but he knows I really don't like skiing, so he said there's no point. I suggested finding a friend to go who skis as well as he does, and he says the only reason he wants to go is to ski with us (meaning D17). I couldn't get him to commit to whether we should just cancel it (one of his no-response things), so I told him he needs to call them and see what his options are, and decide if he's going to switch it or not.

But anyway, thanks for the advice. I was just kind of proud of myself for even bringing up the subject of him not acknowledging me, and it not turning into an argument.

As for staying, he's a great person aside from this kind of thing, he doesn't do these things out of malice but rather just dysfunction, so there are a lot of positives; so I really just need to fix myself so I can fix the R; there's no point to throw away a marriage when it's just that we need to change the bad behaviors. However, I am one of those people that has a plan for leaving when D17 graduates, if I can't get anything fixed by then. I just won't subject her to it when she's living with us.

Jyane, when I taught, I taught in South Florida, where we have kids from lots of different cultures. We were taught to respect the children's way of communicating, for example Ebonics. The example that they gave us was that Asian children are taught at home to look down when they are being reprimanded. So when the teacher gets cross and says,"Look at me when I'm talking to you!" the poor kid is just going to look down harder, as was ingrained in him to do.

I find it a BIG DJ that the teacher chooses to say that your H is disrespectful as opposed to saying that she finds it disrespectful. As a teacher, I would have asked for help with what I needed from your kids in my class, and left it at that. Thanks for typing this, jayne, because I "corrected" my H just the other day about the exact same thing. Why didn't I notice the DJ when I did it? LOL

Cat, I hope you find some ways that you can bring fun and family time into your life while you guys are working on this.

Oh wow, the example of a child looking down when reprimanded really got the point across to me. I can see how that would be a problem, but not the child's fault, just a culture difference.

I'm not sure exactly what the teacher said, it may have been phrased better and maybe I repeated it here in the form of a DJ given my present mood.

That's very wise of you, cat, to recognize H has a lot of positives and this is just his own particular way of interacting, and to concentrate on what you can do. I'll try to follow your example.

Thought I'd give you all an update. H finally called for plane tickets Saturday, so we ended up doing only the second 3-day trip to Colorado. I offered to have the two of us take the first 4 days so that we could have a romantic getaway (my words), and then have D17 meet up with us the second leg, after she finished her finals, but he elected to only do the second half. He says it's because he doesn't want to spend the money and that he's afraid he's too out of shape to ski for a whole week, so I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and just be ok with that. But the days we'll be going are weekend and the two days we have off for Christmas anyway, so he's taking no time off from work. And he told me he couldn't take any more time off from work, cos everyone else already had time chosen, and he couldn't afford to leave with them gone. But he works independently of everyone else, so it wouldn't matter when he's gone. He's just into his "I'm going to spend 120 hours a week on my job" mode, like he does with every job. That was his excuse for not taking the Florida trip, it was 7 days; I offered to drive and then let him fly home halfway through; not interested. Most likely because he hates beach-type vacations, but he didn't say so; just said it was because of his work time.

So I don't know if I'm ahead or behind.

D17's been going to a counselor for a few weeks, and the lady said she wanted us parents to come the next time; so we made the latest appointment possible for Wednesday, 8:30pm, to ensure MrCat can't use work as an excuse not to be there (like he usually does with other things). He said he's going, but I'm pretty sure he has no clue that the reason she wants us there is because of D17's trouble dealing with him. And since D17 seems to like this lady, I went ahead and made an appointment for myself, because God knows I need to start going to therapy. I scheduled it for Tuesday, so that I could give the C a history of our family, and what she's likely to encounter with H, so that she can hopefully keep it from blowing up in our faces.

I know you guys are probably all thinking, geez she's being so disrespectful about her H. But I'm basing this on past experience. I got him to go to a C years ago, when I was seeing a C, because she said the exact same thing this one said to D17 - we need to have your family in (H, in the past) so that we can move forward. But what happened last time was that we went 3 or 4 meetings until the C said that she needed to start seeing H on his own, and that she wouldn't do any more joint counseling until he started coming in on his own. He blew up on her, furious that she was saying that he was the cause of any problems, and stormed out.

Anyway, Wednesday night at 10pm, I'll either be on top of the world or bawling my eyes out as he screams at me for ruining his life.

Cat, thanks for the update. Have I told you how mucH you inspire me? It's very easy to get stuck in our familiar patterns, but you are doing the hard work to get out of them.

That is so frustrating about the vacations. BTDT. We went to Disney one year, and H worked from the hotel room while I took the kids to the parks. Honey, if he'd prefer to be stuck typing on a laptop in a hotel room than having fun at the parks with us, then that REALLY validates that those decisions aren't about not wanting to spend time with us. Hopefully next year, you guys will be better at negotiating for what you want together. Finding those win-win solutions. I get SO thrilled when we find one, because there have been times that they are SO few and far between.

About the counselor, we went to an MC who knew how to not press buttons. But at the same time, if someone doesn't want to change, then all the evidence in the world isn't going to convince them. I am hoping that all this work that you are doing, and the groundwork that the counselor lays, will leave your H feeling safe to try new things, knowing that he can try them and renegotiate if it's not working for all of you. Counselors are great because they can give us the motivation, insight, and new things to try.

Do you have a plan to protect yourself from his screaming if that's what he feels like doing Wednesday night? Maybe take two cars?

Thanks, eo. I thought about separate cars, but he has no idea where it's at, and he'll use that as an excuse not to show up, if he has to get there on his own, and then blame me for not properly preparing him. We've spent many many silent car trips as he fumes away about something we've done to him.

I had a sideways move forward yesterday, I guess. We had to spend a lot of time in the car, so I brought some of the MB stuff I had printed out. I read to him the condensed version of Basic Concepts, Love Bank, Love Busters, all that. He never said a word as I read it, didn't even acknowledge I was speaking, as usual. Home, he gets on his laptop and starts working, at 6pm. At 10:30, I shut my laptop and say I'm going to bed. He comes 20 minutes later, asks if I have anything recorded to watch on the tv, I say not really, as it's already 11pm (he knows I want to get to sleep by 10, 11 at the latest, as we get up at 5). So he blames me for not warning him about the time, while in the other room. I'm thinking, 'well, you've got a clock on your computer just like I do, jerk' but I say nothing, turn away from him. I hear him mumble something like 'well I guess that love bucket's empty.' He probably meant his own, as in I have once again disrespected him, but at least it meant he was listening to me when I read to him, even if he didn't get it quite right.

And it was the first time in 5 years I've said anything out loud about marriage, as in things that help or hurt a marriage. So I'd like to think it was a safe way for me to say that I'm thinking about the marriage and not entirely happy and thus looking up ideas for improvement, without us having to discuss it (i.e., without him getting angry and defensive).

I think I'm finally doing the work for a few reasons. One, I'm almost 50, and I'm finally getting to a point in life where I just don't care about how things are supposed to be any more. As in, I finally feel a little bit of strength and faith in myself, for some reason. Maybe I feel I've earned it after 50 years. Two, I'm so tired of being this close to just wanting to die and wishing I'd get in a car accident or something and just be done with everything. And three, I had told myself for years that when D17 left home I would have to make a decision on whether to stay; if I stay, it will have to be under different circumstances, so I've got to do something. Otherwise I have no excuse for what I put up with and the guilt for not changing will kill me on its own (can't say I'm doing it for the kids any more, ya know?).

Hi Cat -
You're right - it is a sign that he was listening (Love bucket, love bank - Lol!)

I'm wondering if you approach this, little by little, that he might try to work on this with you, if that is what you want.

For example, if one night while you are working on your laptops, that you say "Remember the Love Bank stuff I read to you? Why don't you check out some of the articles on the website? Or order the book off of Amazon?"

Didn't you say in an earlier thread that you were trying to get into counseling again on your own?

Cat, I really admire the resolve you have to get things sorted out. Your last paragraph says alot to me. I think knowing you're married to someone who isn't interested in working much on your M but choosing to be a good wife to him and working on yourself is a huge step.

I can tell that you're taking steps to hold up your side of the deal and it's been hard - just like it is for many of us - but you haven't given up.

I'm in a similar place as you - I'll be 49 this summer and no longer care so much what other people think or say (at least to a point). Example: My parents didn't know until last year that I have a drink of wine or a beer every now and then. I'm an extremely light drinker (maybe 5-6 times a year) but I didn't want them to know because I didn't want them to be disappointed. Well, I finally realize that my decisions about my life are about me. I don't do things to deliberately hurt them, but I don't hide things anymore.

Cat, to hear you say that there have been times you'd rather be in an accident to not have to deal with your life is very sad. I'm so glad you've decided to take steps to get rid of the root of those thoughts. You should be proud of yourself for doing the right things to make your life and your M good.

Thanks, guys.

Mrs2, I think that if I can find ways to do marriage stuff IF I'm not saying it's because of him, he's fine. He wants me to be happy. He just doesn't acknowledge his behavior as wrong, because he has to always be right. Someone asked earlier if he was narcissistic, but it doesn't quite fit. The true test will be tomorrow night, when we see the counselor.

I think that's one of the most underappreciated aspects of our lives, one that people rarely talk about - how we spend 10, 20, 50 years of our adult lives weighing what we choose to do with whether our parents would approve. It wasn't until my 40s that I even started feeling like an adult, and I had pretty crappy parents. The funny thing is, I think that they aren't going around thinking, hmm, daughter better not be drinking any wine. They're probably thinking, you know, we are so lucky she turned out so well.

D17 has a friend whose mother is a gold-digger. Grew up rich in Thailand, married an American, divorced, doesn't work, shops only at YSL and Ralph Lauren, etc., but he's been supporting her ever since, and what he doesn't provide, she gets from other men. She routinely kicked her daughter out whenever the daughter would disagree with her. Once she called us, I picked her up, said she could live with us, and the mother actually told me she'd meet me at the courthouse the next day to sign the papers! While the daughter was listening! Of course now, a year later, the daughter doesn't do anything to upset her mother. The balance has tipped completely, she's so desperate to be loved, and she'll spend the rest of her adult life begging her mother for scraps of attention or what passes as love. The worst thing, is that she's now starting to act just like her mother. But we are forever so very tied into what our parents do to us, for good or ill.

My mother was the kind who didn't mess with us. Never played a game with us, had her own life, and every comment to me was tempered with something like, "well, you could have done better, but I guess that was pretty good." So of course I believed I deserved no better when my husband treated me the same.

Is the separate car thing a nonissue? Or is that where he'll yell at you? My H did this, that's why I have my hackles were raised, but that may not be your case at all. But if it is, I'd consider a cab money well spent. Or let him not come at all, his problem to own if he can't find it but is unwilling to guarantee that he won't yell at you on the way home. I have no such guarantee, and my H finds it to be an LB if I ask for such a guarantee, so I take my own car. That's my problem to own, my fear of being yelled at, so I handle it.

It is sad to see how people live in fear of their parents. We can "set the example in love." That's one of my favorite quotes from FlyLady. Others have inspired me from their examples to try what I was scared to do.

You know, I just realized that the office is two doors down from our insurance office. I can just tell him that! Of course, we made the appointment for 8:30pm, thinking there's no way he could be working that late, not thinking about the car at the time.

Great. He just called me, and said to start helping him find him a new job, his 'dream job' is all messed up and he wants to quit. *sigh* He does this with every job, self-destructs it so that it's not salvageable, just like his mother does. He even told me recently that he thinks he's like his mom, in that respect. *sigh* Back to him being a miserable SOB all the time.

Cat, I think it's great that you're thinking of ways to ensure he can be involved in your daughter's health. You're certainly not making decisions for him, but planning ways that make it easy for him. There are so many people who would just cut him out and work with D17 to cut him out, too. Even though you have doubts about his desire and ability to be part of the solution, you're giving him a chance. Good for you.

What is your plan to deal with the latest career crisis with your H? This one is a difficult one for me, too. Our issues are different, but similar and I'm affected greatly by his attitude about his work. I walk on eggshells around the subject and never seem to say or do the right things. How are you going to set yourself up to not let his mood get you down?

That's a tough one, KLD. I searched for jobs for him for over 4 years, to no avail. He has no college degree, but he's used to making $70,000 a year, so it's hard to find that. It's all so complicated, between the job, sabotaging his own jobs, not selling our old house for 4 years cos he didn't feel like dealing with it, not taking the money we made on the house and paying down our bills (I just had to go to the bank and deposit $50 so I wouldn't bounce checks; that's how in debt I am), marriage issues, my own issues...frankly I just don't feel like dealing any more. I'm just tired. Tired of wishing I had a life where I was happy to wake up and not immediately thinking of what issues I had to deal with that day.

I think the first thing I'm going to do is to tell him that I won't start looking for jobs for him, because he has a perfectly good one, no, a great one, that he's just picking apart without trying to solve it first. I have been asking him to talk to his boss, the owner, about this other person who's causing all the trouble, for 2 months now, and he hasn't. Keeps making excuses, out of his fear of being seen as 'less than.' So I have to stop enabling him to walk away.

CP,

Have you ever read Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud?

Sounds like you H could stand to read it too.

Mark

Cat, have you read Hold's thread, where they discuss the Merry-Go-Round phenomenon, and how when one person step off, how it unbalances the equilibrium, so the others on the Merry-Go-Round try to get you to step back on with them. At Weight Watchers they call the same phenomenon Food Pushing, how people shove food at you to get you to try to sabotauge your efforts. Wierd, huh?

Anyhow, Cat, as far as codependence, that would be finding him a job when he hasn't asked you, right? (Eek, I just realized that's what I suggested to jayne last week. Old habits die hard.) Since he's asking you, though, what about only doing things that you are enthusiastic about?

No, but it's on my list. I'm supposed to read The Dance of Anger first.

No, I will look it up, thanks. Why does it equate here? What am I doing in that way?

I was wondering about the possibility that he was creating a swirl around his job because he is uncomfortable about what the counselor may say to him this time. Just wondering, not accusing or assuming.

No cat, I'm not saying that you need to look it up, I guess I was just saying, "Cat, here's a really typical pattern that happens to most if not all of us. The waves may well churn harder before they settle down. You can handle it!"

If he knew that his wife was looking at leaving him in less than a year, would he still think that this is a good time to introduce the uncertainty of unemployment? Is he missing information that he needs to make informed decisions?

Good guess, but my H is completely uninformed when it comes to our relationship. He refuses to even consider that there even may be any issue at all. Because I don't say so. Which is why I started the thread in the first place; I'm petrified to even suggest that I have a problem, because every 'complaint' is turned into me being selfish and hateful against poor, pitiful him.

I had a C session today, the first in 6 years, to prepare her for tomorrow's session with our D17. To warn her against what he will do if he feels we are blaming him for anything.

I wish I just wouldn't wake up each morning, and nobody has a clue, except maybe you guys. When I try to voice my opinions, I'm thrown back into my childhood, where I had no skills to save myself.

I have good hopes for the C, who is also seeing D17. Nothing else will work.

So, Cat. How was the atmosphere at home last night? Did you get a chance to talk to your H about how you feel about his job situation? Were you able to brainstorm with him some other options to quitting a good job?

I know this was only your first session with this counselor, but did you gain anything helpful in your first day? Or did you mainly just get prepared for tonight?

Do you have a method to keep yourself calm and relaxed today in anticipation of what may happen tonight? Have you reviewed your action plan for dealing with a possible blow up?

"I wish I just wouldn't wake up each morning, and nobody has a clue, except maybe you guys. When I try to voice my opinions, I'm thrown back into my childhood, where I had no skills to save myself."

Cat, this is why I am so proud of you for being brave enough to face this. Do you give yourself credit for all that you have accomplished already? You can do this, too. One day soon, you'll find that you're ready! You can bring your H&O into this relationship and see how it strengthens you, your H, and your M.

Do you have the HNHN book? Have you looked at the exercises for the EN Honesty and Openness? Would your C be willing to work with you on this now, or does she have a different order for you to take this in?

What's your plan?

I was at a meeting til 10, so we didn't really talk, but the guys at work took him out for dinner because Monday was his birthday, so things were a little better, he got his ego stroked a little. I talked to him again this morning about going in to see the boss before he goes making any decisions. He hem-hawed, and I said, Look, how can Boss fix anything if you don't tell him it needs fixed? He said, well, I've mentioned I don't like how Other Guy is working. I said, Yes, but did you tell Boss that it's bad enough that you're thinking of leaving? How can he take it seriously if he doesn't know that? You owe it to Boss and everyone else to tell him the truth. He wants to know the truth. So do him and everyone else that favor. (They all hate this other new guy; he sits in his office watching movies and making phone calls instead of working with the salespeople.) He said he would.

I love the counselor. I got in a whole lot of information in an hour, about my FOO and his FOO, our previous counseling encounter, and our marriage, and I helped her figure out a couple ways to talk to him about giving D17 more freedom without making it an attack on his beliefs. Such as, you want to protect her so you don't let her go on dates, but if you don't let her do it here, her first experience will be 6 hours away at college, where you won't be able to help her learn how to do it safely. I think it'll work. I'm hopeful.

It doesn't matter if I get calm to prepare, I'm never calm anyway, so worrying about tonight won't feel any different, but thanks for asking about it.

I'm so hopeful that this C will be helpful to you and D17 as well as your H (even if it has to be in a back door sort of way).

"It doesn't matter if I get calm to prepare, I'm never calm anyway, so worrying about tonight won't feel any different, but thanks for asking about it."

This statement is a red flag for me, Cat. Finding ways to chill out and relax and not worry is so important to all areas of your life. Worry does absolutely no good, anyway, so why not try to find a way to not do it? Worry will eat you up inside.

It sounds like maybe your H will take a second look at his situation and realize that the best thing to do is not run away from conflict. I so admire you for being there as help to him but realizing that he has to get through this on his own. It's hard to find a happy medium and the right place to be sometimes. I usually either want to just take care of it all myself or do nothing and not have to hear about it. Finding the right balance is a big challenge for me and it sounds like you're making big strides in that area right now. Good for you!

Cat, in a very short time I've come to respect what you have to say. Please know that I'm praying that you will be able to take the big steps toward getting your life where you want it to be.

Thank you. It means a lot to me to hear something nice. The world I've created doesn't have much room for that. I remember when I was seeing a C 5 or 6 years ago, every time she would tell me I was pretty or smart or capable, etc., I would burst into tears. It was really weird, actually. It was like a trigger for the tears, I guess because I so desperately wanted to hear it and believe it, and I usually achieve neither.

You're right, though. I need to change how I'm living. I've been thinking about it, on the periphery of my vision, so to speak, knowing that thought is out there, but afraid to actually turn around and look at it, because it will cause conflict at home. And I avoid conflict at all costs. I think the biggest thing I'll get out of the counseling is learning how to 'speak' - how to respond when H does one of his triggers. Once I feel 'armed' with appropriate responses, I'll feel safer to branch out, and work on taking care of me.

It's definitely a process, Cat. You eat an elephant one bite at a time. You really do seem to know what to do you just have to gain the courage to take that next bite. I know you will do it - you've already started the process.

Cat, do you see that?! How you and your H are fighting the same battles with it being easier to walk away than to find the courage to be H&O.

My H and I do that, too. Fighting the same battles. What a journey to take together!

Huh. You're right. I never thought about it, how he does the same thing.

Hi cat, I haven't written on your thread in awhile but I am reading and learning too! There's so many similarities in our situations. There's an elephant epidemic!

You are getting such great advice, I just haven't had anything to add.

But I can certainly add my voice in telling you that you must be the fastest learner around. Your wisdom is so apparent in your posts to other folks here. You are making great strides and working so hard.

I'm sad to hear that you wish you wouldn't wake up in the morning. I think there is a lot of hope for you with all you are doing. Tremendous hope. Regardless what your H does, YOU are going in the right direction and things are looking up!

I'm glad yesterday's C session went well. I understand needing some prepared responses before going into a conflict. If I can learn to approach H with some good statements that are respectful to both of us, then I know you can and will.

I look forward to hearing how tonight's C goes with H there.

Thanks, jayne. I'll let everyone know, may not be til tomorrow.

I understand, I didn't mean to pressure you to file a report immediately! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, I think it went swimmingly! (always wanted to use that word!) My pre-advice allowed C to steer the conversation toward us wanting to help D17 spread her wings by allowing her to do stuff other kids do (so far he hasn't allowed her to go to the mall, or to a movie, without us, and she's only been on one date and that had to be to a restaurant). So he explained that there are kids and gangs at our mall with guns. So C explained that they are going to be everywhere anyway, and there could even be gunshots while we were right next to her. We discussed and figured out what it really was about was that if something did happen, we wanted to be right next to her to help her. But C explained that (1) she'll be away at college in 18 months and we won't be able to protect her then; (2) it's better to let her try these things out now, when we are close by so we can help her work any problems out; and (3) she's slowly being insulated away from her friends because she's the only one who can't do these things and they've stopped including her in activities cos they know her parents are too strict and will say no anyway. C pointed out that our style (his) is appropriate for middle school, but typical 17 year olds are no longer hanging out with their parents; at least not 90% of the time, like she is.

So there's a party - at the mall - on Friday at 5. Perfect. I helped C seque into reasoning out why she needed to go, and in the end he said yes, with the compromise that I would drive her there instead of her going with friend's aunt after D17 walked to friend's house from school. Silly thing, but it allowed H a modicum of control over the situation. C even got him to agree that, if the kids decided to stay longer than 8 (say, for a movie), then all she had to do was let us know.

Of course, H stated that if D17 had just asked her, he would have said yes (yeah, right), and he reiterated it when we got home, so he was able to establish that it was all just a miscommunication. That's fine. I got what I wanted. And, he agreed to go back! Because we never got around to discussing negotiating techniques for her, which is where the real work will be. But he left without feeling threatened. I love this C!

Do you also see your part in how this was successful, Cat? You helped make the atmosphere non-threatening to him and he felt safe "giving in" a little. Do you think he learned anything from this - even in a small way? If he is "right" and it was just a miscommunication, then there shouldn't be any resistance to working through some negotiation techniques. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm very happy for y'all that it went so well.

Cat, I'm glad that it went well! And I love how you all practiced those Four Guidelines to Negotiation in a safe environment.

I was a little afraid, reading through, especially given your history, that he would take it as the C negotiating DD17's "side." And that she chose words like appropriate, which get dangerously close to "right" and "wrong." Good for your H for thinking through his choices out of new information (Your and DD17's H&O, and the C's input) instead of out of feeling "wrong"!

Yes, I'm feeling pretty empowered right now. It's a heady feeling, actually accomplishing something for once.

He has a strong EN to look like he's the ultimate father, so of course when she pointed out that it is good parenting to loosen the leash in high school, he picked up on that and owned it. But that's ok. I think she's really smart.

I think it has set a great precedent, and the next session we'll actively discuss how to talk to each other. It will be about D17 talking to us, but I know C can make it be about all of us. High hopes.

He was a little uncomfortable, but he rode it out. I was jumping in and saying that it was me wanting to be right next to her all the time, and vocalizing that I had to let go of that, so I think that allowed him to be the magnanimous one, which is fine with me. She worded it in a clinical sense, as in it's important for a child to pull away from her parents in high school, she needs to test out this independence now, instead of being bombarded with it in college when parents are not there to help her. (although I jokingly told her I was going to quit my job and sign up for the same college <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

So H was able to see it as him being the good father by guiding her into this new stage in her life, even if it is a little later than most. That's cool, I've been stroking his ego for 30 years, I don't have a problem - he feels good about himself, D17 gets what she needs, the household is happier.

Thanks, y'all, for all your advice and support. I love it.

I really feel for you in your situation.

Thanks. You edited. Were you going to say something else? You won't hurt my feelings, if you had some advice. I'm my own worst critic.

Cat, I posted last night to you, too, but I deleted it because it was "giving advice" instead of problem solving, and I work hard to identify when I do that.

Anyhow, the frustration/resentment/martyr complex/"done to"-ness you reflected last night felt very familiar to me. I don't think that the MB plan has any need or place for resentment. Only changed behavior and new perspectives. I love how LovingAnyway says that we are new, everyday.

I encourage you to read The Dance of Anger. And here's a thread with an exercise that gives great perspective.

Owning All Your Villagers

Personally, I think it should be a required exercise for everyone on the board or off who is looking to end their marriage/walk off their job/discontinue child visitation or any other such choice. Helps to put all those natural, understandable feelings back into perspective. They are information, good to know. But when we let our resentment flavor our thoughts, our words, our decisions as anything but information, IMO we are in denial of our own joy and power in our lives.


(((Cat))) better days are ahead, hon. You have the skills and information here on the site to create an awesome life. You don't need "to get your H to admit" anything. You can give him the information he needs, and make informed decisions together.

As an aside, I don't plan to knowingly send my kids to the mall with gang violence with guns either, even if they started getting less invitations. There are other solutions, like driving the kids farther to a mall without gang gun violence. Getting your H to "admit" things isn't POJA. POJA is, "what would make you enthusiastic about this?" Which is what you described above.

I found out, reading your posts, that "getting someone to admit" and "smoothing over" are more trigger phrases for me. Imply that one person can control another, as opposed to folks sharing control.

eo, thank you. I will go back and reread my posts and look with new eyes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I often have that feeling of wanting to start over new every day. I keep telling myself, today, you will react to H in a safe, positive way that helps the M. So far, we haven't had too many bad days to test it on since I found MB. I have found that I am able to look at him with less resentment and with an eye toward less LB and more EN. So I'm sure that's had an effect.

Heh, when I went to the C by myself, she told me to get The Dance of Anger, and she also said that it should be required reading in school. Great minds, huh?

I'm going to read it right after I finish Pay It Down, to help with our debt.

The 'getting to admit' and 'smoothing over', I'm sure you know, are phrases that self-victims use when they've been in long-term abusive or controlling relationships. Everything becomes all about surviving without rocking the boat. My biggest struggle is to see myself as an equal in every situation. But I'm trying!

"The 'getting to admit' and 'smoothing over', I'm sure you know, are phrases that self-victims use when they've been in long-term abusive or controlling relationships."

Cat, here's a link that was posted by a husband in a controlling relationship. It's a short read.

The Victim Triangle

These phrases are used by all three roles. I've used that merry-go-round example, too. I've cheered seeing you off that merry-go-round, and I think it would be good to know why you'd be willing to step back on in words or thoughts, even if not in actions.

Cat, the part that bothered me the most was where you said that you were your own worst critic. LovingAnyway says that what you do to yourself, you will allow yourself to do to others.

I want you to know that I disagreeing with some words, but I support you. Progress, not perfection. But looking at where we are slipping or willing to slip is how we clarify and strengthen our plans to accomodate those situations, too.

Yeah, I knew when I said that, that I wasn't supposed to. But I'm just being honest. My self esteem is so low that I'm embarrassed to go to the hair dresser's, as in I don't deserve to get a hairstyle, I'm being selfish for doing so, and imagining the hairdresser not wanting to waste time on me. Also hate my looks, so I think why bother, I'll just be ugly pretending to be like everyone else.

Those things are life long, and immensely hard to stop doing. But I'm trying to act like I matter, so that I can start believing it.

btw, I saved that website so I can read it later when I have more time. Thanks. I like what I saw briefly. I think it will help a lot.

Hi cat,

I'll work on my self-esteem if you will. Let's both write down 5 good things about ourselves, whaddaya say? I'll go first, and I'll say it for both of us:

"You are a caring person who has demonstrated that on this board, and you are a good and helpful friend."

You really are.

You deserve to be happy as much as anyone.

Thanks Jayne. I'm ready to do that, that's why I'm here. I've found in myself and in others, that low self esteem is the hardest thing to overcome. Probably because of FOO issues, I guess, which continue to drive us til our dying day, eh? That's why I like counseling so much - it forces you to look at uncomfortable aspects of yourself so that you can overcome them. So I'm pretty psyched, having finally gotten back into counseling after 4 or 5 years.

H stayed off his computer this weekend, to clean out a tiny section of the garage (looking for something; but we did fill up one big trash can full of junk), then to put out the outside lights, on Saturday. I had figured we wouldn't do lights because of him working on his work project every spare minute. Then Sunday, after church, D17 went with the other kids to the Galleria all afternoon, so I started putting the tree up, and H came to help. We had some issues with the tree and then the lights, so it ended up taking 6 hours. I messed up though, because he was being frisky, as D17 was out of the house for once, but I told him I wanted to get the tree set up first, and then we could do some 'afternoon delight'. My reasoning was that, once we do that, he will most likely take a nap, and then my once in a blue moon help from him would disappear; I can't believe I'm that desperate for help from him that it takes precedence over everything. Anyway, his response was, get this: "Now you sound like a wife."

I was so shocked, I didn't know what to say. What should I have said? I just said nothing and kept on working. Unfortunately, it took so long to get the lights up (bad lights and all) that I had to stop in the middle to go pick up D17, so he never got that 'playtime' he wanted. I made up for it later, after D17 went to bed, but I know I should have made the effort in the day.

The only good thing out of that was that, as he was cussing everyone under the sun for being responsible for the crummy lights he was having to deal with, I stopped myself from owning his anger as my own, for the first time ever. I heard him saying it, but I immediately thought 'no, he's not mad at me; if anything, he's mad that he didn't have spare time to spend with me for SF.' That is a first for me, and I attribute that to MB.

ETA: This morning he called on the way to work, and I apologized for not responding to him and telling him we'd have to wait. He said it was no big deal. So here's the thing I learned. I project what I think is important to him, onto him. In reality, I have no idea what he's thinking, and to assume he would hold a grudge for not 'getting any' is silly for me to do. And communication, in the end, does away with that issue by showing my concern to him and by relieving the stress from me in not being a good enough wife. So I'm a little bit smarter today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Cat, you’ve got to be kidding.

Listen, by now, you should know that sex is really, really important to most guys. Sex is what we live for. The mind of most guys during the day, at work, at home, just revolves about how to get through the day so that they can get some.

You comment:
To a guy this is totally insane logic. It sounds to a guy as logical as “well, I’ll do a little gardening, take a nap, and then I’ll pick up that $5,000 in unmarked bills that I see lying on the busy sidewalk in front of my house.” Or “Yes, Hubby, I know that you cut off 3 toes while mowing the front lawn; we’ll go to the hospital just as soon as you finish mowing the lawn. After all, if you don’t do it now, the lawn wont be finished for another week, because it’ll be dark by the time we get back from the emergency room.”


Well, now you know how to get him to get things done. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

But you should do it a little less cluelessly. Something as “Well, Hubby, having all these lights around makes me so happy, and relaxed, and horny.” Or, playfully, “Hmm, if you be a good boy, you can get some. The sooner you finish these few chores on this list, the sooner you’ll see what I can do with my tongue.”

Ok I just deleted everything I wrote before submitting it... and I'll try to honor my goal of posting something helpful or not posting at all.

Cat, I think you done good by checking with H; finding out that he wasn't as upset as you thought he was. That's good H&O, and good to catch that you were projecting.

That's just my opinion BTW.

I know you're right. That's why I admitted I screwed up, and am disgusted with myself for being so desperate to see him do anything for the house whatsoever. But as for the method, it's really hard to 'come on' that way to a man I haven't liked in at least 5 years. It would by lying, or worse, acting like a hooker. IMO. But thanks, you're right.

ETA, since I was rushing for work when I first posted: We do have bedroom time at least every 2 or 3 days, despite me not really being interested in it, so I'd like to think I'm at least being pretty accommodating, generally speaking. Especially considering we've been together for 30 years. He tells me of his friends, and how glad he is to be married to me, since they're lucky to get lucky once a week, or once a month. And we've discussed it many times, and he knows from the few dozen times I've told him that I would appreciate a shoulder rub or a foot rub instead (I have plantar fasciitis, so I have perpetually painful feet) once in a while, but in the last 12 months he has done that twice, and each time lasted less than 2 minutes. So I'd like to think he's getting the better end of the deal. YMMV.

Jayne, I really don't mind hearing whatever else you were thinking. If I'm doing something I need to hear it, because I'm so enmeshed I can't see the forest.

ETA: As we were leaving this morning, I offered to take his bills to mail with mine, and he agreed but said "Make sure you mail them this time." I just bit my tongue and looked at him, so he came back with "well, you did forget to mail that bill that one time." So I just didn't say anything and took the bills and left. Maybe not so great, but at least I didn't engage in the DJ fest. I'm trying.

Wow. I think that you deserve a medal.

You do not seem to like your husband too much, and you do not care for sex with him, but you still are with him 2 or 3 times a week? It is admirable.

Can't tell if you're being facetious but, giving you the benefit of the doubt, I understand that sex is his number one need. Therefore I give it to him. I don't like him, but I love him, and I'm smart enough to realize that the main reason I don't like him is that I have been subservient for 30 years due to my not knowing how to stand up for myself, thus building up resentments as well as letting him get his way for 30 years. So that's why I'm here trying to learn how to make it more even, so that I get something out of the marriage, and that's why I'm going back to counseling, so I will learn to like myself and stand up for myself and not be a doormat. He's a nice person, but with bad skills. I hope to reach a point where I can share what I've learned in a way that he won't take as an attack and be willing to want to improve himself while I do the same.

I HAVE found, since coming here, that I can resent him less. That is a start.

Well since you asked... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It wasn't anything I saw wrong with *you*. I was feeling a bit perturbed about guys posting that the solution to all problems is SF... Ok it's not all guys and not all the time, but I had just come from wonderin's thread and was not happy reading that Gdaddy had told her she just needed to give him more SF! But he apologized when he heard what was really going on, so that's good and I shouldn't say anything. But I was still feeling defensive... then to come here and read AG tell you something similar, got my goat all over again. He probably wasn't saying anything that bad, and hey, I usually agree with most everything he says. But in the state of mind I was in, all I heard was another guy saying "If you'd just give your H enough SF all your problems would go away."

So I thought I shouldn't vent (last time I did, FH chastised me!) but look, here I am TJing and venting anyway! I should delete this but you asked, so I won't.

Enough about me. Good job holding back from DJing when he made the comment about you mailing the bills. I know that's tough, to bite your tongue and walk away. That's so much better than participating in the argument though. Do you feel good about yourself for that? You should.

I wonder if the next level might be, not just biting your tongue, but providing some H&O. One step at a time. I think where I'm at, I have to walk away at that moment if I don't trust myself to reply respectfully; but then later, I want to come back to him when we are both calm and relaxed, and tell him how I felt. So far, every time I've done that, it's been very good!

How would you feel about approaching your H and telling him how you felt?

Just as an example: you felt hurt when he brought up your past mistake; you understand your mistake and hope you've learned from it and don't like to be reminded of it; and give him an example of something he could say if he was really worried and just wanted to remind you.

You can probably come up with something better suited for your H. Do you think you guys are at a point yet where you could do this?


Would this be a good place to start? You could be very gentle, even talking about how you feel about your mistake with the mail, so that he will feel less "attacked." Everyone has flaws, and it's ok to talk about them, it doesn't have to be an attack.


That's great!!! Yes, it's a start, a good start. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you, Jayne. My thread doesn't generate much 'business' that I can apply specifically to my situation, so I appreciate any advice I get, and yours usually seems pretty spot on.

That's exactly what I was thinking, as he said it, but since he has to be 'right' all the time, I have found few times when he's willing to accept the notion that he has done anything wrong. For example, I had to take D17 to her piano teacher's today and 'do Christmas' with her for 4 hours, and when we get home, I'm treated to how put out H is for 'having' to clean out the catbox and 'all' the cleaning he had to do in the upstairs. Despite the fact that he did nothing that I asked him to do (wrap presents, pick up a present for D17, find his missing stuff).

But I'm working on finding ways to make it 'talkable.' We have a C meeting Monday night about D17; maybe C will be able to help him see our side. As it is, anything I say is a DJ to him; a replication of his mother nagging him.

As I sit here at 1am, after having given him his every-3-days sex, and listening to him snoring in the next room, having fallen asleep before he can even remember that there might be something I wanted, I'm having a hard time being charitable. Sue me, I'm human. I spent half the day attending to other people, the other half on my feet, outside in 40 degree weather, volunteering at a neighborhood event with plantar fasciitis so that my feet are throbbing (and H knows this), and as soon as he got his orgasm, he's asleep and snoring.

So to those men out there, how about a little consideration of your human frailties, and your wives'? Have you ever asked her if she'd like a shoulder rub? A foot rub? An afternoon off while you watched the kids so she could, for once, go to a movie that SHE would like to see, by herself or with friends? How often have you vacuumed the house? Washed 3 loads of clothes and PUT THEM AWAY? Taken the kids on an outing so the wife could plan 2 hours with her friends? Picked up the groceries so she didn't have to schedule the time along with all the kids' lessons and activities? Asked her which activity you could take off of her shoulders, so that she could feel like she's carrying just a teensy bit less weight? Offered to tuck the kids in bed so she could sit down and read a book or knit, with a cup of hot tea? Given her a gift certificate for a massage because you know all her spare money goes for paying for kids' lessons and extra groceries and teachers' Christmas presents?

I'm sorry, but I hear a heck of a lot of whining on here about whose needs aren't getting met. Well, guess what? Mine haven't been met in 17 years, but I keep on trucking on, because that's what mothers and wives do. Sure, there are some people here whose wives rule the roost. But generally speaking, it's the women who are taught in childhood to shut up, put up, not speak up, and GET THINGS DONE, because it has to be done. Men may bring home better salaries, but women bring home the salaries they can get, and then work another 20-40 hours a week to make sure everyone is taken care of.

{{{{{cat}}}}}

I'm here, awake next to a snoring H, if you are still here and wanna vent!

Hi cat,

I'm sorry I haven't posted much on yours or ears' threads. Most times I feel like you guys are getting better advice than I can give anyhow. Plus lately, I'm not sure why but in the yucky mood I've been in, it's been easier to post to newbies than to you guys or even on my own thread.

Like, I can be real mature when helping someone else. But my stuff, now that's a whole nother horse altogether! And you and ears, it's like my own stuff too, ya know?

I hear your frustration. *hug* Yes I wasn't happy about hearing "just give him SF" advice.

I think the tactic you're taking with C, letting her know H's issues ahead of time, and couching things in terms of "we're here to help D, we aren't trying to fix you" is excellent.

You sure seem like an awesome and intelligent person. I find it hard to believe you are struggling with self-esteem issues... "hard to believe" isn't the right phrase. I can believe it, because I know it happens. But it *shouldn't* happen. You're good.

I want to submit this now, in case you are still on.

Thank you. Sorry, had already gone to bed. Hope you're having a better day, too.

People probably think my H is an ogre, but the truth is, when I can get him to understand I'm hurting, he's likely to change his habit. It's just up against (1) my fear to speak up (the reason for the thread in the first place, looking for tips on how to overcome that) and (2) his fear of looking wrong so that everything not-great, that is not praise, is an attack. That's why I have to go around the back door, so to speak, to couch things in terms like helping me or helping D. I don't like it, but I haven't found any other way in 30 years that works.

Anyway, thanks for listening.

"That's why I have to go around the back door, so to speak, to couch things in terms like helping me or helping D. I don't like it, but I haven't found any other way in 30 years that works."

Cat, I want to see you feeling better, honey. It hurts me so much to see you DJ your H like that. You've probably heard this, but I'll say it again, just in case.

"Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die."

I don't think your H is an ogre. I think that you both have these patterns from before you came to the marriage, where it makes you two feel more comfortable to have one person be the ogre and the other the victim. And that you two change roles as needed. Doesn't make it true that either of you are an ogre. That's why we're all here, right, to find more peaceful ways to enjoy life than these worn-out patterns?

What do you really think would happen if you didn't sugar coat your H&O? What is the fear there? You're not in your childhood abusive home, hon. The survival skills you needed there are blocking connection with your H. You are safe now. Your H is a mature adult. He loves you and wants you to be happy. I'm looking forward to when you respect him enough to share your H&O with him.

Thanks, EO. Actually, I have a lot to fear by even just discussing things with him, let alone being honest about our relationship. Fear of being yelled at, silent treatment, throwing things around the house to show he's mad, slamming doors, going outside to sit on the curb and pout...all the triggers that make me want to throw up, cry, or try to kill myself. So I avoid them as much as I can.

I'll give an example. We sold our old house, and instead of paying off $60,000 in credit card bills, MrCat gave the money to his friend, a rich investment company guy (who he admits he feels like he has to compete with financially), to put into yet another 401K. He (the friend) was supposed to have set it up so that we could borrow against it, but didn't (he has a habit of doing this with our money - he gets it then he ignores us and we suffer). Anyway, I talked to our accountant, who got upset with us for not paying the cards off. I told MrCat "K is upset that we didn't pay off the credit card bills, like she's been telling us to do." His answer was to start yelling at me, "I don't give a sh*t what she thinks; she's just a stupid b*tch who wants to tell me what to do! You guys don't know what the h*ll you're talking about! I'm sick and tired of you telling me what to do with my money! And that stupid b*tch needs to mind her own f*cking business!"

Those are the typical responses I get when I discuss anything other than what he wants to talk about. So, typically, I just don't.

First off, ears is always great at getting me back on track. She's right about feeding resentment, of course. But I still see your dilemma and I'm not sure of a way out.

There should be something you can do, boundaries you can establish, to enable you to protect your financial future and that of your kids. I understand worrying about debt and finances. And IMO it would be better to pay off credit cards than to invest. If you are being charged say 7% interest on the credit card, then you would need an investment to pay better than 7% plus inflation in order to come out ahead.

Does your H seem to show anger with people in general catching him in a mistake, or just women? I think you've said it's with anyone, but I wanted to check.

Are you still able to see the C individually? Maybe she can help you come up with some ideas.

I think it's great that ears reminds us to not DJ. (Hey I thought that was my job!) Just today H and I are having problems, as a result of my approaching him in a lecturing way - LB. But I am not sure how I should have handled it. My first mistake was probably not planning ahead what to say. But it sounds like you've been trying that, right?

Did you do that in the sitch you describe above, about your accountant? Have you established boundaries, like you will not stick around if he uses foul language and yelling?

Maybe, rather than resenting how we can't talk to our Hs without sugar-coating things, we would be helped by letting go of our H's response, and just enforcing boundaries if they respond inappropriately? I don't know, it's worth a shot.

"Fear of being yelled at, silent treatment, throwing things around the house to show he's mad, slamming doors, going outside to sit on the curb and pout...all the triggers that make me want to throw up, cry, or try to kill myself."

Cat, I have all these same triggers. I can imagine how awful they are for you. To me, it was as if the abuser's actions in the past were still affecting how safe I feel in the resent. We have a new life now, Cat.

When my H yelled, I felt VERY unsafe, as if I were in severe danger in the present, even though I am no longer in danger. It took me until just a few months ago to really understand that. Jayne and LA were really helpful after my last panic attack; they really gave me perspective.

Have I suggested You Don't Have to Take it Anymore: Turn Your Resentful, Angry, or Emotionally Abusive Relationship into a Compassionate, Loving One. It talks about the HEALS method to recover core value. To retrain your brain not to go to those same places when you've been upset.

I understand that today, you don't have the skills that you need to feel safe while setting boundaries on what behavior you'll tolerate being around. Because it will take some time, with the C, with books, and on your own. What about looking at it as protecting yourself so you can heal, instead of it smoothing things over for your H's sake? Would that help lessen the resentment from building?

Our cards are so out of control, after him being out of work for 4 years, that we're more like in the 20-30% interest rate. He knows we have to pay them off, he just thinks it's smarter to do it by investing the money and then borrowing against 'ourselves'. The problem is, he's an uber-procrastinator; he can only do positive things when he's 'in the mood'; otherwise, he just can't deal with anything important. He doesn't know where that comes from, but it hasn't changed in 30 years. With all the bad stuff of the last 15 years, he's just paralyzed. And he refuses to hear that he could find a way out of it, through counseling or some other help. Because that would be letting someone know that he has any faults; because he can't be wrong. So we trudge along.

He has more of a problem with women, a lack of respect, but yeah, he pretty much thinks everyone is deficient. I'm sure that means deep down he thinks HE is the most deficient, but that doesn't help him on the surface. He's one of those people who has decided that all the minorities (he's white) are to blame for all our problems, so we get a little speech at least once a day about what they're doing to us. It wears you down after a while.

We're seeing her tonight for D17, we're supposed to work on her negotiating skills with us. I called her last week to set up an appointment for me, but she didn't call me back. So I'll have to make sure I do it tonight. I'm going to make sure H sees me doing it, so that it might help open up a dialog (since he thinks there's nothing wrong with us).

Yeah, I worked out the least offensive way (in my mind) to tell him that she thought we should be paying off the cards; obviously not. The money is a huge stresser for him, so he's extra sensitive to even talking about it. I don't think I could have said anything that wouldn't have triggered it.

When he did that, I told him I didn't do anything wrong, so he didn't have the right to yell at me when he's mad at someone else. And I went into the bedroom. Didn't help with discussing the issue, but at least it stopped the situation. That's about all I can handle right now. I'm hoping the C will find me a psychiatrist, so I can get back on meds.

My resentment is mostly at myself, I'm sure, not really him, for not being strong or smart enough to have kept this all from happening and to know what to do, so I probably need to work on that above all else; once I'm ok with myself, there won't be any resentment of him, because I'll be able to not take it personally. I'm hoping to get on a regular schedule with the C. Unfortunately, our deductibles start all over again in 2 weeks, so I'll be out another $1500 before the insurance starts paying for it. Oh well.

I have another book I'm reading, that someone here recommended, as soon as I finish "Pay It Down" for our money problem. And someone here and the C both told me to read "The Dance of Anger." And I've got several threads here I've bookmarked and am working my way through, and LA's wonderful response to me I'm going through again, piece by piece. So I've got a lot of reading ahead. But I'll add it to the list, thanks.

And I like the protecting idea, I will work on that. I know H loves me and doesn't want me unhappy, he's just got worse skills than I do. So if I can find a way to deal with this so that we both learn, I'll be happy.

Cat, I so admire you for what you're doing for yourself, D17, your H, and your M. I know it's hard for you to make these changes because you've been in your current pattern for so long.

I really feel that I'm in no position to give advice or even remind you of principles because I have so very far to go in my own journey - I feel completely unqualified to say much at all. I do want you to know that when I read your thread, I learn so much and I feel so deeply for you.

I've gained inspiration from your posts because even when you have setbacks, you get back on that horse and keep trying. I know you're filled with fear and I understand that feeling because I am fearful, too. Your ability to look inside your fear and resentment and understand where it comes from is so helpful in finding ways to deal with it. I know your H is selfish, but it's remarkable that you really get it that you have as much responsibility in this because you've allowed it. That's so different than most people approach things like this.

I pray that you'll be able to find ways to point your H in a different direction. You won't be able to change the person he is, but your reactions and decisions for yourself and your D don't have to be completely dependent on him all the time. I know you know that, but finding the way to deal with it that works for you will happen.

Thank you, KLD. You really struck a chord, and I needed that. I've wondered a lot lately about why I don't just leave, why I let D17 grow up in this chaos. But I think the bottom line is that he's a good person (and I'm not just saying that); he is never selfish, he volunteers all the time to help people, he doesn't cheat or steal or lie or take from people, he always makes sure I'm satisfied before he is (if you know what I mean), he loves us so much it's amazing...he's just a nice person. I know it's just our combined lack of understanding how to resolve things that gets in our way. So I know if I can just get to the place where I can overcome my childhood and make things work how they should, we'll be happy together. I can help him learn not to be angry and scared, if I learn it first. So I educate myself and am honest with myself. It's the best I can do. And I have to do it for D17, to make sure she's not taking away the bad with her, but rather the good.

But thanks for understanding. All of you. And btw, KLD, I could say all the same things about you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Cat, I see a lot of hope in the fact that, even though you may come here to vent about H, you are quick to point out his good qualities when you think someone here may be thinking he's an "ogre."

I found myself doing the same thing. I'd come here and complain, and Stella (love ya Stella!) would say "dump the bum!" and I'd say "no no no, he's really a great guy, for these reasons..."

And then I'd start thinking about those reasons...

And I'd feel more loving toward H, and somehow he'd seem to be acting more loving toward me. Go figure.

So that's why DJing even just in your own thoughts depletes your love bank.

If you want ideas for a specific problem like negotiating with H over finances: would it help to sit down and do the math together? I don't see how it can make mathematical sense to invest rather than pay down debt that is charging 20% or more interest. But I could be wrong. I don't understand compound interest. lol

Do you think he would agree to follow someone's program for getting out of debt, one of those financial gurus? Dave Ramsey has really helped us. He is a great motivational speaker too, that might be good in your sitch. He uses humor, and he explains it in a way that even I can understand. And he's a guy; that might go over easier for your H.

Just some ideas.

ps- We had some credit cards over 20% too. As of two days ago, we paid off most of the US cards, and what was left we switched to a new card that has 0% interest for a year. We are on track for having that one paid off by that time, also. This is 8 months after I started trying to get H to listen to Dave Ramsey. What really helped was us sitting down to do a budget and doing the "Debt Snowball." But that didn't happen right away - it took awhile for H to get motivated. I listened to the tapes on a car trip while H drove. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've never heard of Dave Ramsey. I'll get a book on tape and take it with us to Colorado. Thanks.

You can get a lot of info from his website, which you can find easily by googling. (I don't know if it would be considered advertising if I were to post the url.)

In fact, I wonder if you'd just want to borrow the tape series from me? We have the Financial Peace University series. And borrowing things like that are actually in keeping with what he teaches, so I think it would be ok. If you want to, let me know.

Thanks, Jayne. But wouldn't it cost just as much to ship things as it would to buy? I have to take back my Pay It Down to the library this week. I'll look there first, and let you know if they don't have it.

We went to our second joint C session with D17 last night. MrCat was very enthusiastic about going, so that was good. But the session just ended up being about her inability to stand up for herself among her friends, nothing about the family, so it was kind of a waste of time. I kept trying to steer it toward that stuff, since the C wasn't, but we didn't, so all in all it was pretty stressful for me. It was weird, but I was using the time as my own personal way to try to get MrCat to deal with our family issues, you know? Cos I'm too chicken to just tell him that I want him and me to go to counseling, because then it would have to be out there in the open that I am unhappy. I feel badly that I usurped D17's time for my own gain because I'm too weak to do what I need to do. So all in all, I was pretty depressed, as in 'look what levels I have sunk to.'

The only good that came out of it (aside from discussing D's need to be more assertive) was that he's still willing to come to another session, where we're supposed to work on D's negotiation skills with us, and that he was right there when I asked for my own appointment with her. He looked really strange when I did that; I think it shocked him. He has conveniently forgotten that I was in therapy for several years and requiring antidepressants, which he knew was because of him and me.

So many things to read, so little time to just sit down and absorb what I'm reading or come up with solutions, I'm just too stressed out to deal. I'll just get through Christmas and New Year's (annual party) and then set goals for January, I think.

So, Cat, you have raised the issue of your unhappiness in the past? When you were in counseling before, how did it help? What was his reaction to all that? How much did you tell him then? Why did you stop counseling and ADs?

I so understand about the holidays and January for new goals and new beginnings... I'm right there with you.

Cat, I see why you feel bad with how things went. Given that you and H have this same struggle your daughter is working on, the learning to stand up for yourselves, I think this is great for you all to be there, so you all can share with each other how you're trying these strategies that the C is suggesting, and how it's working for you. Where it's still hard. So you three can support one another together. Like we do here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


(((Cat)))

We have a really weird communication system. Because he won't 'deal' with things, such as taking 4 years to fix up our old house to sell it, because thinking about all he's up against just makes him pretend it's not there (even a house!), any topic I bring up usually results in an angry "I can't deal with that right now."

I told him I had started going to a therapist, back at my old job (it was free) and that I had started ADs. He asked why, and I told him that I don't know how to deal with adversity, that I'm afraid to tell people what I'm thinking, that when he does something that upsets me I don't know how to talk to him about it, so I was going to learn how to communicate. He never mentioned it again, and neither did I, until my C told me that she wanted MrCat to come in. So I told him that I was having trouble moving forward, and that I needed him there to help me. He agreed. Like I said, he doesn't want me to be unhappy and he's willing to help or change if I can couch it in terms of it not being due to him; he just wants to make sure no one thinks it has anything to do with him.

So at first, he came and the C helped me talk to him about feelings, mostly we talked about how I learned to be afraid cos of my dad. Which was fine with MrCat, because it was Dad's fault, not his. We tried doing all that "I hear that you're saying" stuff. But after about 3 visits, when all the issues kept coming back to my inability to negotiate with MrCat on issues, the MC told him that she'd like to see him individually. Suddenly he wasn't the savior any more, he was the culprit. He refused. So she said she couldn't see us together any more without first seeing him. So he cussed her out and left.

About a year later, after we had moved across town and I wasn't seeing the free C any more cos I had had to quit my job to earn more money (because the other house hadn't been sold yet), he mentioned my pills, saying he didn't understand why I needed them, and some other stuff. Since the C was all the way across town anyway, I used that as an excuse to stop seeing her, and wean myself off the meds.

So basically, I just caved, on all accounts. Because giving up on myself is easier. Weaker, but easier.

Which brings me back to my original post again - I literally throw up before I can bring up touchy stuff like this by myself (which is why I was so greedy about having MrCat in front of a C again). It makes me sick to even contemplate standing up to anyone. So I'm going to make that my plan with the new C, to get to why I'm so very terrified of confrontation, and learn how to overcome it. And how to tell him what I want without - or in spite of - him taking it personally.

I want him to improve, too, so he can be happy. So he can quit sabotaging his relations with other people too, whom he all suspects are out to get him, in one way or another (he can be very antagonistic and caustic). The good thing here is that, because of the 4 years without a real job, he is less proud and sure of himself, and earnestly listening to my advice about his work situation. So I see him using what I say more often, and getting good results. The more that happens, the more he'll trust me that I know what I'm talking about in our own situation, I think.

Cat, now I do remember that you posted that he got mad and left when it turned out that he needed to make some changes. Your H sounds kind of like an ostrich.

I'm glad you're trying to work through why you're so afraid to approach him with something you want or need. Do you really feel this way about standing up for what you believe or what you want to anyone? What about D17? What about at your job? I know you've spoken of issues with your FOO, but what about siblings? Friends?

I know this may sound too simplistic, but have you ever just sat down with him and told him how afraid you are in terms of it being about your own problem? Maybe that you could use some help from him to deal with this because you know he loves you and wants to help you?

And JMO - you can't worry about his other relationships for him. That's his stuff, not yours. I know it affects you - maybe embarrasses you or makes you have to deal with a bad mood from him when he gets into it with someone else - but it really is his issue, not yours. This is a really difficult one for me, too, because I worry about my H's relationships with others. I know you want him to have a full life of friends and fun, but that's really up to him and not you.

I think you're job is to get yourself to the point where you can talk to him about how you feel and what you want and then lead by example as you can. Maybe when you're further down that path and more trust has been built, you can branch to discussing how he interacts with others if you can do it in a non-DJ way.

It is great that he's started listening to you more and taking your advice. That's a big step for him, I'd think, and one that he's probably at least a little uncomfortable with though he may never admit that. He seems like one of his ENs might be admiration, so telling him how proud you are of him for making X decision, or whatever might be a good thing to get him into a more positive frame of mind.

cp

I don't know how I missed it before, but I just noticed your thread. I didn't read all the posts, just tried to get the jist of where you are "now".



Maybe the root of your fear is if you confront your H, he will abandon you like your dad did.

I'm working on learning to deal with my fears. One thing that has been really helpful to me is a book my IC gave me to read called "The Fear Book". One thing it says is that fear is a signal that we're leaving our comfort zone. If we give in to the fear, we're shrinking our world. If we view fear as MORE than a signal, it actually becomes our enemy.

I don't know if this will help you. But its been really helpful to me, so thought I would pass it on.

(((((cp))))))

Tama

P.S. One of the fears I've been working through is posting to others here at MB. I'm taking baby steps, but I post more than I use to and learning not to judge myself when I lose the "battle". For today, I'm a winner. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, tama. You're probably right, but honestly, the last few years, I really wished, really hard, that he would just get an affair or leave or something, take care of it all for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'll add that book to my list, thanks.

I know you said that as a joke, but I think there's some truth to it.

Have you ever stopped to think that by doing or saying nothing, you are in fact doing and saying A LOT?

For every action, there is a reaction. Contrary to what some may believe, inaction is in fact, an action.

Something to maybe think about....

Tama

Hi cat,

I'm sorry the session with the C didn't go as you'd planned, but maybe the C had a different agenda, focussing more on D. And also, you don't want D's sessions to start to look to H like you guys are ganging up trying to "fix" him.

I think it's good for you to discuss all this with C in your own session; and that H saw you ask about your appointment. I don't really have anything to add to what everyone else said.

PS- Re. the Dave Ramsey tapes - I hope you don't think I'm trying to push them on you! What I have is the FPU course, it costs about $100 if you do it through a church group (or military or other group?). I think it's more online.

OH. I didn't realize it would cost that much. Let me try the library first, and I'll get back to you. I'll check with my church, too. They (Lutherans) have a huge financial institution in place. Thanks again.

And you're right about the C, that's why I was feeling so bad. It wasn't my appointment to usurp, and I should be grown up enough to not do that, so I felt mad at myself.

I've told him before, back when I was in suicide mode, that it was all because I was afraid to talk to him, that his anger and negativity issues are driving it all, that and my fear of confrontation. So he's heard it all before. Like I said, he just chooses to forget it's there, maybe assumes it's magically all better somehow because I quit mentioning it.

Ok, let me know if you decide you want me to send the tapes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

By the way... and I think you are in a good enough place to hear this right now... I hear you giving your H a lot of power over your own emotions. I understand what you mean, but I think a healthy goal would be for you to take back the power over your own emotions and actions. I'm referring to when you say "it was all because I was afraid to talk to him, that his anger and negativity issues are driving it all, that and my fear of confrontation."

IMHO your focus should be on your fear of talking to him, your fear of confrontation - and not on his anger and negativity issues. Work on overcoming your fears so that his anger and negativity are his, and you can choose to not react to them.

And that won't happen overnight... so if you feel yourself being influenced by his anger and negativity, don't be ashamed to let us know... especially if there's even a slight chance you are slipping back into that mode you mentioned... 'kay? *hugs*

Jayne, I haven't had time to look into the tapes yet; I'm supposed to read The Dance of Anger before my C session next week, so that's my next step.

Update: Got back from a ski trip, during which I was responsible for packing everything (my choice) because D17 and H skiied and I didn't. Well, turns out, I forgot to clear out one drawer at the resort that contained H's very important pocket notebooks that contained all his work information. I figured out last night, after unpacking, that I had forgotten to empty that drawer, and I barely slept last night, scared to tell him. But I forced myself this morning to tell him and he was remarkably unemotional about it. I told him that I was calling them today to try to find them, and he said nothing. A big change from what he would have done a year ago, and I don't know why. I tried to do what you said, and detach myself from his (potential) anger, and just blurt it out.

I've realized that what I'm afraid of, even more than anger, is his 'disappointment' which is definitely a FOO issue for me. My father, then my brother, then my ex-fiance, all controlled me by letting me know I had disappointed them. MrCat easily fell into the same pattern right away, and it's been like that for 30 years because I never questioned it and always took on his 'disappointment' as though I deserved it. So I tried to make myself feel like a grownup this morning, as I brought it up. Of course, I haven't heard back from them, so I'm losing hope they'll find it, so there might be worse to come. The only saving grace? He lost $500 cash on the trip out of his pocket, so he may be coming to the table from a slightly less elevated position (in my mind and his).

And on top of that, H's dog's at the vet's today for a tumor biopsy, and he called and said it's almost surely malignant. So we have to deal with that, too. And I had to call my credit union today and apply for a consolidation loan because I can't pay my bills, and I'm waiting to hear if I'll get it.

Sorry for grousing. I'm just a big fat mess today. I'm tired of being uptight all day long, every day, and I just want to go to bed.

{{{{{{ cat }}}}}}

I'm sorry to hear about the lost notebooks and money, and about your H's dog. Tough homecoming. But I'm proud of how you faced up to the things left behind and let go of his response. I hope the hotel staff found and held onto them.

Interesting realizing the FOO connections.

No worries about the tapes, no rush. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think the Dance of Anger is awesome too. I need a refresher course, it's been years and all I remember is the "change back" behavior to expect. It's in a box under my bed. Maybe I should read it with you! I said the other day I'd find it and read it...

Oh... re. the consolidation loan, make sure it's the right thing to do. If you are including low-interest loans with the high-interest loans like with a debt consolidation service, then you may not come out ahead. But if you are doing this on your own, taking out a lower-interest loan to pay off higher-interest credit card loans, then that's ok IMHO. But it's also important to change the behavior that got you to that point, or you'll end up with the credit union loan plus some more credit card debt too.

Cat, when you said we had a lot in common, I can see why. We do both have a keep the peace personality. After I read the Secret, I worked very hard at living my life in a way that would produce the result I wanted -- peace.

But my old therapy sessions were nagging at me. When my husband and I were first together, I could do no wrong. About the time I moved in, I could do no right, but he was still civil. Whenever I try my best to keep the peace -- and just do what he asys -- we have our happiest time.

But that feeling that you are selling your soul keeps nagging at you. That feeling that you don't deserve to be treated this way keeps nagging at you. That feeling that your child shouldn't see you being treated this way -- and learn that this is acceptable -- keeps nagging at you.

And that feeling that you should be standing up for yourself, even if it is work and might cost you the life you have at the moment, keeps nagging at you.

My husband sounds like yours in some ways -- the clothes, what a nightmare. However, he is cleaner, doesn't like a lot of clutter, so we can work together on projects. I'm disappointed that he doesn't do more, like mow the lawn and get right on household projects, but since my health is up and down, I look at as a trade. He has to put up with the house having disaster zones that I eventually will get to when I am feeling good. I don't think near as bad as what you are describing, because that is neglectful clutter by your husband, but my husband must tolerate the kitchen needing cleaning for a day or two. The laundry may fall behind. For the most part, I feel I keep up. We have company a lot, almost daily.

He is saying the same thing about doing things for us, for our future. It is frustrating as I don't know if he really means for us to have a future. I believe your husband intends to stay married least. I am happy for you on that point, if in the end, that is what you want.

I feel for you. It does seem we have a lot in common. I will keep an eye on this post to follow your progress. Hugs.

Jayne, all my credit cards are at at least 20% interest, so anything will be a savings. My biggest money issue, stupidly enough, came about because of my fear of my H learning I had overdrafted, and so I would borrow a couple hundred dollars here or there to keep from overdrafting, and to keep him from finding out. Just like a child. So now I'm finally at the point where I'm telling him the truth. I was so scared for him to find out how in debt I was, although he was even worse. But now it's out in the open, I can deal with it a little better. However, I still can't afford the bills. So if I at least get rid of one of them at high interest, I'll be better off. I'm not using credit cards any more, so I'll get there. The sad things is, we made $120,000 on the sale of our house, but MrCat put the money into a 401k instead of paying off our $70,000 of debt, despite my protests. And then we were supposed to be able to borrow against it, but the guy didn't do it right, so we can't, so we're stuck yet again. He's so stupid about money, and I'm too much of a wimp to demand he do it right. But I'm working on it, so I will prevail. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

btw, the hotel found his notebooks and is overnighting it all. Thank God! Thanks for your support.

Yay bout the notebooks!

Ok, I know you'd do it for me so I'll do it for you... you realize you DJ'ed right? Maybe you just said it for emphasis...?

Good for you on the completely giving up credit card use! Also on the H&O about the finances! I see growth... telling him about the debt, and about the notebooks...

It looks promising for a great new year!

Thanks, Yeah I knew when I wrote it, but I'm so very dissatisfied with him, after having to leave my dream job at NASA because we couldn't pay our bills because it took him 4 years of paying for 2 houses just because he didn't 'feel' like working on the old one. And then doing this with the money, after both I and our accountant told him not to. I just can't find my way around not being angry with him for doing something even he admitted was wrong. We're paying tens of thousands of extra dollars because of these things, along with my own problems. So I wake up and go to sleep uptight over it.

But at least I'm at a point where I'm trying to change my mindset, and I've finally got set up with a C again after 4 years. So that's something.

This could be me writing! But you're right, you have to make the changes, for your kids' sakes. Above all, I don't want my D turning into me. I'm not really worried about that, she's very secure, but it still scares me.

Here's my dirty secret. My depression and lack of faith in myself is so bad that I find myself wishing that either he or I would get in an accident. When he's on a business trip, I sometimes think that I wish something would happen to him. A horrible thing to admit, but it's truly all because of myself - I'm so weak about making changes that I would find it easier to just be out of it all, one way or another; and I hate myself for thinking that way.

I haven't liked him for so many years I don't know if I ever could like him again. Since I've been to MB, I find myself having a little more compassion for him, but I still don't like him. It's not him that I dislike, but his negativity; it weighs me down, it makes me afraid to do anything that would let the negativity raise its ugly head, and it makes me forever on the hunt to avoid things that would cause him to be negative about anything.

But I'm trying to apply the principles and make our life together better, and it's helping somewhat. Maybe eventually I'll get to the point where I forgot what this is like.

Cat, I see so much progress in you. I think your H is possibly responding to some of the changes you've made. He not reacting as you expect in many situations and this has got to be because of the changes you've made in yourself. You're slowly unwinding - bit by bit. You're taking the steps to be H&O in a reasonable way.

This is a process that doesn't happen overnight. The thing I so admire about you, Cat, is that you've been fairly consistent. Sure, you've had bad days, but on the whole you've not wavered. You've admitted your fears, thoughts, and feelings in a way that makes you seem real. Admitting here is a practice step that will allow you to put into words for your H the things he needs to know.

Your IC work is going to help you get further. I honestly do believe that you are going to end up with the M you want. I also believe that you're going to end up with the life you want, as well.

The key for you at this point is to keep being H&O with your H while continuing to work on the LBs and ENs. These are things you know to do, but it's really hard when you feel the way you do about your H. I believe those feelings will soften over time as you become better and inspire him to do the same.

Also, as you work through some of the stress of your money problems, I know things will get better.

If it helps at all... I didn't like my H much at all about a year ago.

I think our M's have different problems, and I'm not trying to tell you that all your problems will disappear if you just start thinking "happy thoughts" about your H. But I agree with KLD, you are making progress. Things could be so different, even one year from now...

Is there a way to work through your resentment?

You have reason enough to feel resentment. But, is there a way through it or past it? I want you to be happy. You deserve it, we all deserve it. I just think you might be happier if you stopped DJing - and I am talking about the DJs you are committing against yourself also. (He's stupid and you're a wimp - DJ's against yourself too.)

You aren't a wimp. I see great strength in you. He can't be too stupid, if he chose a W whose strengths lie where his don't. And y'all both sound like you've produced a pretty awesome DD so you must be doing something right.

*hugs*

Wow, cat, some really big breakthroughs, thanks for sharing!

So I'm standing here at the computer, getting drunk on wine because we went to rent a steam cleaner to get ready for tomorrow night's party (it's the only day of the year that he cleans the house, when he knows adults will be coming over - and judging him). Well, MrCat never renewed his driver's license last month on his birthday so he has an expired license, and when we went to rent the machine, I didn't bring my purse (didn't want to have to pay for all the crap, because I can't even afford to pay this paycheck's bills, but I pretended that I just forgot it). Well we went to 3 places and none of them would rent him the cleaner because his license expired 12/3, and I didn't have mine. So of course, he's screaming at the top of his lungs about blacks and mexicans who won't let him rent a machine, and how I - just like in Colorado - didn't have my purse with me, so I couldn't solve the problem. If only he was black or mexican, they would have rented to him. Get the idea? So instead of finding a way to calmly point out that if he had just taken 2 hours off work to renew his license, there wouldn't have been an issue, I clam up; I cry; I let D17 cry; because I freeze whenever he goes into monster routine in front of clerks and other people in public. I'm so ashamed of myself for not being able to keep him from being this way I can't function. Until, on the way home from buying food for the party, and him screaming about blacks and mexicans and me not having my purse handy - yet again (in his mind, it's why he lost his $500 in Colorado, because I didn't take my purse into Burger King so he couldn't hand it over to me, thus his losing $500 was my fault), he's having to suffer and spend all day cleaning carpets with the $300 piece of sh*t cleaner I bought him for Christmas instead of a real one. Until I scream "shut the F up and stop making D17 cry!" He stops until we get home, then apparently goes inside to find his passport, so he can go back into town and rent a 'real' cleaner. Leaving me here at 5pm, which means we'll be cleaning until 3am. I'm sitting here praying that he'll get belligerent and get thrown in jail so I'll have a day's peace until he comes home.

I did everything wrong. I hate myself. I hate him. And I can't see a way out. This is the first day I've felt within an inch of just telling him I want him to leave. I have no way to pay bills, I'm $30,000 in debt, but I'm so distraught I don't care. But at the same time, I'm terrified that we might have a conversation where everything blows up, because this time, I don't think I can stop from just taking a knife and going into the woods. I just want everything to be over. I want someone else to fix things for me, because I can't. But there is no one else. Which makes me feel even worse, for doing this to my daughter. I should be teaching her better, and I'm so weak I can't function.

Cat, honey, I'm so sorry to hear how bad things are right now. You are learning ways to make your life happier every day, no matter what he is doing.

This stuff that he is saying right now, is fog. Like Lovinganyways says, entitlement, fueled by resentment.

What can you do RIGHT NOW to feel more like yourself? Who can you call? Where can you go for a little healthy connection? Maybe a coffee shop, or a family member's or friend's home?

I don't know what going into the woods with a knife means. I'm going to guess injuring yourself or worse? Those things can go horribly wrong. My H lost his dad to suicide when he was 17, and I'd hate to see your daughter go through that when today we have SO MANY more options.

I'm praying for you, hon. (((Catperson)))

Thank you, eo. I'm so sorry to be dumping so much lately...must be the holidays. He comes home and tells me I'm using the wrong extension, and aren't I an editor? Can't I read the instructions, that I should have diluted the mixture? And now he's going over the entire area he already cleaned with the cleaner I bought him for Christmas.

No, I don't have any friends. I don't have anyone to go to. I'm too ashamed to call anyone up I used to know. My mom's too old to deal with this. I can't put this on my daughter.

Hi Cat,

I don't see that you did so many things wrong. You didn't take your purse because you didn't have the money to pay for the steam cleaner. Good decision.

Your husband rants and raves and generally makes a fool of himself at the shops. You show restraint and don't chew him out in public. Another good decision.

When he keeps going on an on in an abusive manner you get through to him the only way that he will listen to: i.e. yelling and profanity but by letting him know that he is hurting his daughter. And he shut up, so again, I'd say it was the right decision.

Then you let him take care of the situation himself by taking his passport to rent the machine. Again a good decision.

I know you probably feel bad for the AO, but you're only human. I think you're learning to let your husband deal with the consequencens of his actions, and he's not liking it. This isn't your fault and is what is supposed to happen. However, he's not going to be fun to be around when this happens. I think eventually he will get the point however.

Cat, my computer battery's dying, but please know that I'm thinking about you. Consider caling the counselor or a hotline if you get too upset.

And please cat, consider getting out of the house for a few hours. Walk in a garden. A house of worship. Whatever brings you back to who you are. Your life is bigger than a clean or dirty carpet or a party.

Cat, I'm so sorry to hear that things are difficult for you right now. You're not weak. You're strong. You've shown us that over and over. This situation is testing that strength, but the strength is there just the same.

You can't shield MrCat from the truth forever. You're figuring out how and when to stand up. It's a process, Cat, and you're going to be fine.

Cat, just checking in with you this morning. Were you able to get out of the house for a while to clear your head?

You're in my thoughts and prayers today.

Thanks, KLD. I didn't go anywhere, but we ended up cleaning all night long, went to bed around 4. He went to another place with his passport, and rented the steam cleaner. So his problem was solved. That's how these things go; he blows up, sometimes I defend myself, but once he gets what he needed, he's fine, and just forgets it ever happened. Unless the blow up was aimed at me, in which case I barely talk to him for 2 or 3 days, so he knows he's in the doghouse. But he's off to work, so I'll have the house to me and D17, that'll be nice.

I really hope you enjoy your day and find a peaceful way to become yourself again.

Is it possible to have a conversation with your H about his behavior over this incident and how it made you feel? If he's back to feeling good again, maybe you could take a few minutes to let him know. Surely he will be surprised because it's not how you normally operate, but maybe it would be a step for you. Possibly if you tell him you don't even expect a response from him, just that it's important to you for him to hear your thoughts and feelings.

I know you have your party coming up and it may be better to wait until that is over, but over the next few days maybe you'll have a chance to think about what you want to say in a short and to the point way. I've actually written notes to follow before and it helped to keep me on track when my notes were there for a reference point.

Cat, glad to hear that things didn't re-escalate. How are you doing?

One thing that's really helped me in those situations is to clarify my predetermined boundary enforcements. Predetermined means you don't have to think through it in the moment, because you've thought it through beforehand at a calm moment. I've got to admit that this is the most challenging thing for me. Have you discussed anything like this with the IC? What do you think would work for you?

Oh, Cat. There just are no words. What can be done to help you dig out of the hole? Do you have any energy left to make some changes?



You are not in any way responsible for his behaviors. Can you make some plans on how to respond to this? For instance, could you just refuse to go with him on shopping trips? Or if you choose to go, could you choose to walk out of the store when he starts his tirade?

In regards to the debt, are you currently working? Is this credit card debt? If it is credit card debt, did you know that you can contact the card companies and ask them to stop adding late charges and interest fees? Many of them will work with you if you contact them. It is the interest and penalties that can make the debt impossible to pay off. Have you been in contact with them?

Thank you. I've been thinking about how to talk to him about it, in a non-accusatory way. I think I'll add this thought to the drive-by plan, and see what script I can come up with, to leave him a little tidbit to think about. If I link it to his D, as in not wanting to do anything that might harm her, it usually makes more of an impression on him.

I've only had one meeting with her, and it was to prepare her for our family meeting, so as not to scare H off. I've thought about predetermining before, but our lives are so unpredictable around him that I've never been able to set any boundaries. I need to be more creative, I guess. But at the very root of it, I suck at boundaries. For instance, H decided at 5pm that he and I needed to go to the store together to get last-minute things for the party at 7. I'm thinking, that's dumb, there's no reason for both of us to go, when we still have stuff to do, but I don't say anything; I'm afraid to; I just go with him, and don't get home til 6:30. And then he starts getting mad at D17, who's been home, for not getting things ready, just like he does before every party. This time, however, I DID tell him to stop griping at her, to NOT go there, and he did stop. He wasn't happy, and he pouted til the first guests came, but it kept him from yelling at D17. So I think that was correct, yes?

I do walk away from him sometimes. And I know I'm not responsible. But sometimes that's not practical, and sometimes I see the looks on the clerks' faces, like Saturday when he blew up over something, and she was just shocked, and it was all over her face, and I just wanted to die.

Can I contact the credit card companies in writing? Because I can't deal with people in real life, even over the phone. I have such a huge inhibition over such things that I'd rather suffer than deal with a person and let them know I'm in trouble. I actually did apply for a consolidation loan Friday at my credit union, though it embarrassed me mightily, so I could replace one of the high interest cards, and got turned down today; Even though it was on the phone, I was so mortified I wanted to die.

It's the same issue I have with H - I just don't do well with people, I want to melt into the woodwork, I don't want any attention. Which is why I have trouble dealing with H in the first place.

{{{{{{ catperson }}}}}}

I'm so sorry!!! It's hard to think of all the possible situations to plan ahead, and have all the pre-determined boundaries. I agree that you aren't responsible for his actions and that it sounds like you did all the right things for your part. It is difficult though, and you can't always just walk away. I think trying to not go on any more shopping trips is a good boundary, if that's possible.

Even if that isn't possible, you have options... let us help you brainstorm. Please don't do anything rash, ok? You always have options...


Yes. Creditors will often work with you, especially if the alternative might be you file for bankruptcy and the get even less. You can ask them to freeze your credit card and to work out a settlement plan for the balance. You can even work out a plan where you pay some reduced amount, but then you cannot open a new card with that company and it will affect your credit rating, but it still could be a god idea if that's the only way to get out of the financial hole.

Here is one of Dave Ramsey's suggestions for dealing with credit card debt, if you are unable to make all the minimum payments. He calls it the pro-rata plan.

"If you cannot pay your creditors what they request you should treat them all fairly and the same. You should pay even the ones who are not jerks and pay everyone as much as you can. Many creditors will accept a written plan and cut special deals with you as long as you are communicating, maybe even over communicating, and sending them something. We have had clients use this even when sending only $2 and have survived for literally years. Pro Rata means their share. What percent of total debt they are. That will determine how much we send them. And we send the check with a budget and this sheet attached each month even if the creditor says they will not accept it.

. Total Total Disposable New
Item Payoff / Debt =Percent X Income = Payments
_______ ________ /______ =._____ X______ =_________
_______ ________ /______ =._____ X______ =_________
_______ ________ /______ =._____ X______ =_________
..."

In case the column formatting isn't clear, the first column would be the credit card company or car or other item of debt; the second column i the total amount needed to pay off that debt; the third column is the total amount of ll your debt combined; the 4th column is column 2 divided by col. 3. Col. 5 is the amount of money you have left over after paying for necessities (food, shelter, etc) that you can apply toward debt each pay period; col. 6 is then how much you should send to each company.

We were on the road the past two days, I didn't have much internet access, so I didn't read what you've been going through. i hope things are returning to calm for you, now that New Year's is over. *hug*

Cat, it is best done via writing - you don't want to ever get stuck on the phone trying to get something done. You also don't want to send it to the same address that the payment goes to. Each creditor should have a customer service address usually listed in the verbage on the back of the credit card statement.

Getting the interest and penalties eliminated will give you a chance to actually start getting them paid off. A single letter printed out several times with only the pertinent info changed makes it easier. If you want help with the verbiage, let me know.

cat - I've been avoiding this thread, primarily because it is painful for me to read. Your situation mirrors that of my sister's, who has been married to the same man for 32 years. He has gotten better over the years, but he has basically been a tyrant. My sister has had a difficult life. She looks 10 years older than she really is.

She does all the work at home - even yard, garden, and fixing things like leaky pipes and broken lawnmowers. She does stay home, but because of that, she has to 'make up for it.' They have both stepped out on their vows and come back again. I just don't know what to say to you except I feel for you. I hope that you are eventually able to get out from under things and can build a new life for yourself if that's what you want to do.

Cat, I get nervous talking about this stuff here at MB, because at heart MB is a plan for healthy people who get off track, but whose intent is to connect with and prtoect their partner. It doesn't include the concept of predetermined boundaray enforcements because there is already POJA, don't gain at your spouse's expense. So once your spouse hears your H&O that yelling isn't cool by you, they know to knock it off. All you have to say is, "Ouch," and they fill in the rest, that they didn't want to hurt you. They apologize, have genuine remorse at making you feel bad, and then make amends by not doing it again. If you say, "ouch, that hurts," and their motivation was to hurt you, you can see how the same behavior is not going to get the result you want right away.

The idea is that over time, the person's love bank would fill, and then they would no longer wish to hurt you, and then you'll be practiced with the right tool. But others can tell you it doesn't always work this way if the person if more powerfully motivated by their ability to intimidate you than their ability to share happiness together.

"I've thought about predetermining before, but our lives are so unpredictable around him that I've never been able to set any boundaries...."

IMO it's more a process of clarifying your boundaries. "I will not stand by and watch my spouse verbally abuse another person." Or whatever it is for you. They are already there. You already know that you're going to leave next year if you two can't change these patterns. Some aren't so lucky, they wake up and find that they are past their point of no return already. I am grateful that you found this place before you got that far.

"This time, however, I DID tell him to stop griping at her, to NOT go there, and he did stop. He wasn't happy, and he pouted til the first guests came, but it kept him from yelling at D17. So I think that was correct, yes?"
Sounds good to me. There is a lot of detail that was missing. As others pointed out to me, it is more empowering to the kids to have them do their boundary enforcement, their H&O. Because sticking up for your kids can go so wrong. But I'm glad it went well.

Everyone, thanks for your replies. I'm going to use all of it, and I feel very much more empowered today. I realized that our biggest issue this year is that H's new boss said he was coming to our party, and bringing his family (and he did), and since my H is all about admiration, he was nearly frantic at making a good impression. So I'm cutting him a break, so to speak, in not reducing our deposits over it all. He hasn't fixed anything in the house since we moved in, and it's starting to show its age after 4-5 years, and I think he just finally looked at it the way I've been seeing it. Hmmm. Maybe that will help him get motivated to doing something...

Anyway, I wanted to comment on this: Because I think it's actually that D17 DOES stand up to him that things are finally coming to a head the past year or two. Sad to say, it's her strength to stand up to him and face his anger that has empowered me to shake off my stupor and finally try to start setting boundaries. But in the end, I don't want her to have to do what I should have done years ago. She is really pertty healthy about it; I apologize to her sometimes for getting us into situations like that, and she just says don't worry about it, she's not taking it personally. I have good hope for her.

Catperson, the more I read, your husband reminds me more of my ex-fiance than of my husband.

The big difference is if you feel there ia PUNCH waiting for you behind his tantrums. And I fear this is what is happening. You rarely defend yourself. In a relationship where you feel physically safe, you can stand up and defend yourself verbally.

When you are intimidated and fear that the man might cross the line and HIT you or your D17, then you cannot defend yourself.

Is this what is happening? Really search deep in your heart because, having been in both situations (arguments where I fear a man will hit me and arguments where I do not), I was able to see in retrospect that right from the beginning of our relationship, I feared my EX would hit me if I stood up to him. I just wouldn't face that fear because the rest of the package seemed so good.

Though we weren't married, we went to a counselor. After a couple sessions, she requested a personal session with each of us. In my session, she told me that my EX was an ultra-controlling person. She said save up your money and leave this man.

I wanted to continue with the session, but this is all she would say.

Even during our joint sessions, his temper flared so violently that even she looked like she was going to get struck. To have a man do that in public the way you describe is way overboard.

A man doesn't have to actually hit you to threaten you physically. He can control you by making you think he will. And to tell the truth, if you step on his toes, he probably will cross that line one day. My ex-fiance struck me while holding our baby in his other arm. That was the only time he hit me, but I was ALWAYS afraid he would when we fought. Ask yourself, "Am I in constant fear?" when he is angry.

If you were not physically afraid of him, you could have excused yourself to the car while he abused those CSR's. Maybe I am wrong, but that is how I see it. I am so sorry this is happening.

I couldn't imagine being in that kind of relationship for so long. It is like a prison. A prison that looks pretty to the outsider but is a horror to is residents.

I really have never worried about physical violence. My issues are more about him looking down on me, me not getting respect from him. I have such a severe need to be respected and thought well of, and it is the one thing he's consistently used against me, that it is my number one trigger point for me. He is always right. Therefore, everything I do, unless he directly told me to do it, is always wrong. Lots of disapproving looks, little looks of disgust, like, boy are you stupid. And it's messed with my confidence so much that I don't have any faith in myself, even when it comes to stopping him in front of a clerk.

I'm sure it's completely FOO stuff for me, but that just makes it harder to get over, IMO.

Here's a thought I just had, I don't know if it will help or not... but just in the last couple posts I've started being reminded of another poster, I think it's aeri?

It sounds like physical violence isn't the problem, but rather H needs to be right and W must do things his way.

Recently aeri stood up to H and it sounded like it went well, IIRC.

I'm really glad to hear that you feel physically safe.

The one thing that struck me is that you believe you should be able to stop him. That really isn't on you. His behavior is not within your control.

But yours is. By standing there, you will give off two impressions. 1) That you support what your husband is doing or 2) that you are being physically abused at home and are too afraid to move.

May I suggest getting a second set of car keys. If anything like this happens again, please say, "I'll be waiting in the car" and excuse yourself. Just consider it.

If it were my husband, I would be tempted to say something more to reflect my own point of view, like, "I don't think you should yell at them for doing their job," but I understand where you are coming from. It is better to walk away under these circumstances.

Jayne, that's exactly right. As I've said before, I have self-diagnosed him with something I found searching, called the "Right Man Syndrome." Those who 'have it' can never be seen to be wrong, to anyone. His main EN is admiration, based out of his severe insecurities, and he goes to great lengths to make sure people admire and respect him. At home, if you question what he does, he blows up.

I finally went to C last night. Didn't accomplish much, she freaked out a bit when I told her I had been close to suicide a couple of times. But bottom line, she agrees with me that he is depressed - and who wouldn't be with the last decade we've had? But to deal with it requires special tactics, over just a general dysfunctional relationship.

Basically, we'll be working on ways for me to change my view on what's happening to me, so I can get over freezing every time he fights back against me changing and improving - the 'change back' actions described in Dance of Anger. She pointed out that he has no intention of leaving the marriage, but that my key issue growing up and with ex-fiance has been abandonment. We realized that with H, my issue is his disapproval, which he is quick to show, and which can be closely tied to abandonment, even though I know he will never leave. So I have to be able to untangle those emotions and fears that control me before I can move forward. Long road ahead.

vs, thanks, very good observations and ideas. I've spent my whole adult life in the middle between him and everyone else, covering for him and enabling him to get away with bad behavior, as I realized in C last night, so I have to stop doing it, so that HE can learn and improve. I certainly don't want people to think I condone him or am being abused, so pointing that out helps motivate me.

I like the key idea, too. I will definitely do that.

cat - I have to see this just like a situation if he were verbally abusing YOU, where you would leave the room - remove yourself as his audience, to send a message that you personally will not subject yourself to that kind of stress - whether its aimed at you or someone else.

The idea is that he's abusing - and being there with him while he's doing it is giving him attention - and giving him attention during a time when he's acting in an undesirable way, is quite possibly in his eyes, admiration and respect.

I have found with my husband that he will go to great lengths to get attention and admiration - from bragging and pointing out his accomplishments to yelling and swearing. As long as his quests for attention are not harmful to anyone, I do give him what he needs. When he gets out of hand, I leave the room.

It's so very easy to get sucked in - especially when it's how you've been dealing with him throughout the relationship. I've found that my husband doesn't read emotion well. He can if he wanted to, but tears more often irritate him than move him.

Anymore, when "the vipor" that takes over my husband's body comes out, I remove myself and close the conversation simply by turning away and explaining why I'm doing it. I don't really have to leave the room anymore for him to get the picture.

The other day you explained so, so well how children do not innately know how to navigate life. (I'm too lazy to copy and paste what you said, so I'm paraphrasing.) I think the same is true of aggressive people who don't know how to navigate what could be a healthy relationship. They need to be shown by example how a healthy conversation takes place and how an unhealthy conversation needs to end.

I agree, Soolee. I just wish I could find a way to bring up such things without his insecurity and defensiveness kicking in. That's mainly what I'm going to C for, as I told her last night. I want to learn to communicate with him in a safe way that helps us both.

Well, sometimes I think - and I know this sounds terrible and condescending, but sometimes I think that when you have to deal with a difficult person like this - someone who just doesn't know how to deal with other people or doesn't even try to relate with other people is to look at them like you would a child because when you do that you can muster up some compassion and patience.

I have found that when I give a little of myself to my husband, I generally get at least as much or more in return. I actually have to make conscious efforts to tell him about my day, talk about what happened, etc. I am happy as a clam to keep it all to myself. I recognize this now as withholding - not consciously - but missed opportunities to connect.

One way to bring up things is by example. Begin to tell him about your day and relate some good behaviors that you witnessed that made an impression on you. And when you've had a successful conversation with someone and gotten a positive response, relay that conversation with him and conclude with your positive or perceptive opinion of that person, especially if he's likely to run into that person again.

For instance, my husband has little patience for the child of a certain person in our social circle. However, I admire the father in particular for taking a leadership role in a club his child is a member of, and my husband and I agree now that he is probably involved beCAUSE the child is the way he is and needs his father's guidance in that way. Before that conversation, however, my husband was just annoyed. Now he has understanding and empathy because I took the time to relate my perception of the situation.

People who are prone to being judgmental are often one dimensional in how they view others. They need help looking deeper.

I'm glad to see you over on aeri's thread. She is really stepping up and standing up to her H, with great results.

I wonder, if in looking for ways to bring things up to your H without setting off his defensiveness, you've been reinforcing to him that he has a reason to get defensive if you don't walk on eggshells? I may be wrong or remembering wrong, but I picture you trying to say things in ways like "This isn't your fault, it's my fault but I really need you to do XYZ." Not exactly like that, but trying to phase things in ways that shifts the blame away from him. It seems to me that would reinforce his expectations.

If that's true, then maybe look again at how you make "I" statements. Really honest "I" statements don't accept blame for things that are truly his; they don't blame-shift away from you or toward you. "I don't agree with this, so this is how I am going to act." "I need this to be done, and this is what I am going to do." It isn't about him at all, either blaming or excusing.

I don't know, I may be way off base - this isn't what I started out to type, but it came out, and I'll leave it just in case it's useful.

That might work. Just some action statements. I have said, in the past, 'I'm going to paint the dining room' etc., only to have him jump up and start doing the work before I can, because, in his words, I'll do it wrong, so he has to do it. That's ok, I can live with that, but then he'll later bring up how he has to do 'everything' around the house. C said we would work on that next time.

Cat, how are things going with you?

Thanks for asking - I should be asking about you!

But H has been away on business since Sunday, I pick him up at the airport today. I really look forward to his trips, as it gives me a few days away from negativity, so I can regroup a little, you know? I've been thinking a lot lately how I can start setting boundaries respectfully, and it makes me severely nervous to even think about doing it. But I feel like I want to try to just take each statement or action at a time, decide whether it's one worth taking a stand on. Above all, I want to be honest, for once in my marriage, so I think I might start with that.

For instance, he now knows I'm going to the C, which unnerves him. But it kind of slyly lets him know, I think, that changes are coming.

He's not a predatory abuser, just a poor-skills abuser, it's all he knows. So I have to figure out how to couch things I say in terms of it making our time together better.

Anyway, I'm kind of rudderless just now, just knowing I have to make positive steps but having no clue how. Hoping C will help. Anyway, thanks for asking. Hope you're doing ok.

Hi cat,

It's great that you've had a few days to regroup. This would be a good time to implement some changes, if you have some boundaries figured out. Sort of a new beginning.

Do you have time before you pick him up. to prepare yourself mentally for what you will and will not accept, and what your action will be when certain things happen?

Just the 30-minute drive to the airport. Suggestions?

Cat, boundaries were SO HARD for me until I realized that it wasn't deciding on good boundaries, it was just clarifying them. In other words, I did have natural boundaries, I just didn't have the awareness that they were being crossed. It's still hard for me, LOL, because I still don't always understand why I'm feeling uincomfortable when I'm being disrespected. But it's getting easier over time.

I drafted my progressive boundary enforcements on my thread last week. Would yours look similar?

I know what you mean about some time alone, Cat. My H has traveled alot in our M and I never liked so much of it but when he'd been home a while and then went I always enjoyed some time to myself.

He has been in Houston this week, Cat. He is leaving to come home this afternoon. You might see him and not even know it!!!

I know it's difficult to get through some of those limbo times when you're not sure exactly what step to take next. For me, when I start a process I want to always be moving and it just doesn't always work that way. You're doing so well, though, Cat. You're so aware of the dynamics of your M and getting to the C was a great positive step. I see you preparing to implement and then doing it as it fits. You can't make 30 years of changes in 3 months. It's not reasonable and it won't be accepted in most cases. You're doing the right thing. It will work out for you. I know it will.

Just a thought: focus on changing one Annoying Behavior of his by setting boundaries <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. What is the singular most annoying thing he does on a regular basis? Where do you want your boundaries to be?

I like that idea, decide on just one AB. Maybe the public displays of anger/discrimination? Would you want to work out what you will do in such situations?

I just got home from a trip late last night, and didn't have much of a welcome home at all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> There are probably some boundaries I want to enforce. I'll check out your thread, ears, I must have missed it while traveling.

I think that makes the most sense for me, vs - I'm so depressed it all seems like just one big monstrous wall to climb - and unsurmountable; thus the depression. Vicious cycle. So if I can just focus on one thing, watch for it, address it, I think I might be able to make it through. Maybe throwing away his trash when he's at the couch.

Thanks, everyone, all good stuff. I need to ponder awhile.

Cat, are you feeling any better after C sessions? Sometimes you sound good and then sometimes you remind us that you're so depressed.

What are you doing to take care of yourself while you work on these things?

"Maybe throwing away his trash when he's at the couch."

Does this represent respect to you? Respect for your space? What does it represent? Is DS a big EN for you?

I would suggest one that would make the biggest impact for you immediately. Actually, I'd suggest one "within your hula hoop." It sounds like the negative conversation is a BIG LB for you. I'd ask you to consider not participate in any more of these negative conversations. Redirect the conversation, ask for the negativity to stop, or go find another activity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But if the trash is bugging you more, then I understand why you're going with that one.

We're caught in this unspoken circle of him expecting me to do everything for him - make dinner, clean up, his laundry, pick up his dirty dishes. Most of the time, if I think to ask him to do it himself, he looks at me like 'you don't really expect me to do it, do you?' and doesn't. This goes way back. I once tried keeping a box in the kitchen and putting all his stuff that he leaves out in it; he just ignored it and I never carried through on my threat to throw it out - I'm so big into avoiding conflict. It's all tied into his mom nagging him so much for everything. For instance, he pulls a shirt out of the closet, takes it off the hanger, and just drops the hanger on the floor and walks away. If I ask him to pick it up, he just gives me that look and either picks it up or walks away from it. Either way, I feel like crap. I've got to stop taking it all personally.

So my side of the bed is relatively clean; his side has half a dozen boxes full of junk he won't go through (he just starts filling another box when the last one is full); his dirty clothes on the floor; hangers; dirty dishes, etc.

Again, it all boils down to my fear of saying what I think. Yet again. So I've been practicing how to say something.

Cat - I've been reading your thread and I hope to follow in your footsteps. I think our husbands were separated at birth.

You do need to quit taking his AO personally. I bet most of them are not about you. So many things play a factor (work, weather, traffic, etc. - anything can set them off). Your husband sounds VERY sensitive (just like mine). Everything is very personal for him, and that's something I can't do anything about (and neither can you). That's his demon to wrestle. All I can do is take it into account when I discuss things with him... which I why I think I'm so reluctant to talk to my H. I don't want to hurt him and I know I will when I'm honest with him. Could you be doing something similar? You don't seem like a wimp to me.

I may be 100% off base here. Just trying to help you brain storm.

WaterOak, they do sound similar, but my H has one other factor that I don't hear in yours. He makes everything be about him being wronged. He is a perpetual victim. When I picked him up at the airport, he wasn't where he said he would be yet, so I drove around and looked in the downstairs area. As I was doing that, he called from the upstairs area (and his first words were "What are you doing? You TOLD me you'd be upstairs"), so I came back up there. By the time I got there (this is all less than 2 minutes), he throws his stuff in the car, gets in and starts going off about all the f'ing people standing around smoking, and all the stupid people who don't know how to drive or park and how he had to stand there smelling their exhaust and the cigarette smoke, and how now he's sick in his stomach and feels like throwing up. No hi, no kiss, no I missed you...

This is a typical day for us. If he's not complaining about what people are doing to him, he's complaining about how stupid people are, how lazy, how corrupt...

So he never really turns this pity party off. So whenever I try to talk about anything, he instantly starts into how he's overworked (his choice), misunderstood, walked over, taken for granted, abused, used, you name it.

That's why it's so hard for me to talk to him. It's not exactly that I can't turn off taking it personally, it's more that he can't do anything but protect himself by blaming everything on someone else - typically me. Whenever I try to logic it out ("H, how can that be my fault? I wasn't even there."), he gets defensive and finds a way to turn it back on me.

So I give up and just don't talk. He's fine as long as we're talking about him or what he wants to talk about.

One good sign, though. He just called me, on his way to work, and I brought up him needing to call the guy at the investment company to free up our money so we can pay bills. He started getting defensive, and I just stayed calm and said "I can't pay my bills and you can't pay your bills, so it has to get done." He didn't blow up, he agreed but didn't promise to call; he dropped the subject and didn't resolve anything, but at least we discussed it.

Cat, an idea just came to me. What do you think about this?

Remember what Myschae said about getting a motorcycle for RC? What if you and you H found a hobby like this that

1) gets you out of the house so he CAN'T trash it
2) gets you guys out spending time with other people, where he's naturally able to squelch his negative commentary
3) gives your DD17 time to spend with her friends

Does this sound like a win-win?

Have you thought of printing the Freinds of Good Conversation/Enemies of Good Conversation article for your H? It will give you two a common language to communicate with. Then, when he gets into the blaming things on you, you can simply say, "Ouch, when you say ____, I feel like you're blaming me. Would you like to rephrase that?"

Or even try Listen and Repeat, or Listen and Repeat With Filter "It sounds like you are saying when _____ happens you feel_____. Did I get that right?" Try using non-confrontational language to express his hurt without the blame.

Would you be willing to call the guy at the investment company? Would that be a solution that you and H would both be enthusiastic about?

Good ideas, eo. I'll see what activity I can come up with. C says he's depressed, so that will also be a good way to help with that. He quit playing sports with me years ago because I always beat him, but with all my health problems he could probably turn that around. We used to play raquetball a lot. Would help with my weight loss, too. Maybe a cooking class; there's a new cooking school nearby. And our church has a dinner group. Hmmm.

I will definitely print that article out, too. Thanks for reminding me. It was on my list ages ago, but I have a hard time following through on things.

I told H that I would call the guy, but I don't even know anything except that he works at X company, don't even remember his name, and there are at least 20 offices in town. But of course he said no, he'd do it. So I will wait until tonight, and if he didn't call, I will go through our paperwork until I find the information and call him Monday.

Thanks for the suggestions. It helps when I get concrete things to do, cos the depression keeps me from thinking things through a lot.

Reading your description of picking him up form the airport, I could identify with the confusion from a lack of communication. If my H and I were supposed to meet each other somewhere, you could almost bank on there being some confusion that would mean frustration, anxiety and wasted time.

What I think I hear in your description is that when your H wasn't where he said he'd be, you worried that maybe he was actually some other place, waiting and getting angry - you didn't want him to be getting angry, so you went to another possible location to see if he was there - then he called you from (I think) the agreed-upon place after all, waiting and getting angry (the sitch you were actually trying to avoid).

I can certainly see myself doing something similar.

One thing that bothered me was thinking how functional couples would handle such sitches. Other people seemed able to handle such things. Reading what you wrote, it strikes me that another couple might have more *trust* that their spouse will in fact be at the agreed-upon location, and if they don't both arrive at exactly the same time, the first one can trust that the other will arrive as soon as possible - so each one is able to sit and wait.

Neither has to second-guess the other (could he be thinking of another place?) and neither is getting angry (I trust her to be here, so if she isn't here exactly right now, I'm sure there's a good reason and she's doing the best that can be done right now).

That looks totally different from what H and I were doing.

So I started making a special effort to cover all bases in plans to meet: "So we are talking about this particular place, right? Not the other place? Ok. So if you aren't there when I arrive, I don't need to look elsewhere, right? And if you get there before me, you aren't going to try to figure out where I went, you are going to stay there and wait, right?"

Actually a MC helped us start this. We had a communication breakdown on what we meant when we said we'd take the kids swimming. My H (who was on the swim team in high school!) meant he'd stand in water up to his knees so his clothes don't get wet, and watch the kids splash around. I meant, I'm taking my bathing suit and I'm going to help the kids get out over their heads, but I can only do that to one kid at a time so I need you out there with me!

So the MC suggested we CLEARLY define our terms before-hand.

Even if I think H was being passive-aggressive or deceptive or whatever, I can avoid the bad sitch by consciously being aware and clarifying things before-hand.

In the case of picking him up from the airport, perhaps your boundary could have been to take him at his word instead of trying to second-guess him. If he was in fact at the lower level, you would still be able to say "I was just going on what we'd said, barring a phone call from you asking me to meet you elsewhere. Thanks for calling me from the lower level, I will be down there as soon as possible." Then if he's angry, that's his problem - you followed the agreed-upon plan.

That makes a lot of sense, and I did worry he was downstairs. The only other wrench in the works is that I am not allowed to stop my car to wait for him, with airport security as it is. They don't even let you slow down without waving you on to keep moving, unless a person is actually getting out of your car (upstairs is for dropping off, but he didn't have to get luggage so we agreed to meet upstairs to save him having to go downstairs...). So I had to leave the area anyway, since he wasn't outside and the guard was waving me on, and I just figured I'd check downstairs once as I circled around; basically, I would not have been outside waiting for him no matter if I went downstairs or not.

But you're right, a healthier exchange would have involved me explaining just that (which I did), and that I didn't enjoy getting chewed out (which I didn't).

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes that explanation helps me understand, and would've been good to communicate to him also. Even if he knew, a polite respectful reminder can help.

It took me some practice, and I still don't have it perfect and don't do it all the time. But when I do, things sure are a lot smoother than I ever thought H and I could achieve.

Catperson, do you think this is at all relevant to how you feel about your H?


I can empathize; I've even struggled with something similar, and maybe it's even natural to do this. But when do you plan to stop investing in FogLand real estate?

What could you say to yourself the next time you feel sad about this?

Would it be honest to say, "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. I love the life that I'm creating with H."

Huh? Sorry, I don't understand what you're asking. If you're asking if I'm going to stop looking at this other man and wishing my husband had some of his qualities, like respect, concern, and lack of DJs over just about everyone in our lives...no, I probably won't.

This man has a smile for everyone he meets. I've never heard him say a mean thing about anyone. He's literally losing his brain cells due to serving in the Gulf War, and is permanently disabled from government service, but he still has not a mean thing to say about the government that did this and tried to cover it up, nor for anyone else. Maybe that's why it's so touching for me - my husband has so much to be grateful for, yet tears apart everything and everyone, while this man is losing his life, his family, and his memories, and remains grateful for the life he does have.

Like I said, that doesn't mean I'll ever think of him as anything more than a friend. I'm not built that way. It just means I find my H lacking, because the difference is so striking. As good a man as he is, his negativity to protect his insecurities and his willingness to so easily forget all the struggles I've been through as long as he gets his status quo do not endear him to me.

My H has sat next to me as I contemplated suicide, a knife in my hand, and rejected it. And a week later, acted as if it never happened, and never brought it up again. And never changed any of his own life. And never asked me if he needed to change. And never asked me if I'm happy.

He's a great provider, and he's a great protector. In his mind, that's all he's suppposed to do, I suppose.

Sorry if I sound touchy. We were supposed to take our dog in to the vets today to put him to sleep (he has cancer), but H couldn't make himself leave work in time (of course, it's all the other people at work's fault), so we're having to keep him comfortable for another night so that we can try again tomorrow afternoon. A little stressed out.

However, I did take y'all's advice and take a step to be more caring of his opinions/needs. He gripes that I don't give him warning when I'm ready to go to bed, that I'm being selfish by just saying good night and leaving the room, so I made a point of letting him know that I was going to get ready to go to bed and was he ready...yeah...30 minutes ago.

oh... I'm so sorry to hear about your dog. I know that is a difficult thing to have to do.

Try to go easy on yourself... and H... for a few days. Maybe H procrastinated because he wished to avoid the pain. I dunno, I'm not trying to justify anything, it's just a thought.

This may be coloring everything between you two. Maybe you should just sit tight a few days, taking gentle care of yourself and trying to at least not commit any LBs.

I hear you about the man who has a kind word for everyone, even when he's been through so much. Just tonight I encountered such a person, who confided to me that they have a terminal illness. They had just been participating in a meeting, with a lively, happy, enthusiastic attitude... they gave me some affirmations that I had been so desperate before... when they told me of their illness, suddenly my problems seemed so small, yet here they were affirming *me*... wow. I feel BLESSED to have a chance to meet them and get to know them.

Oh, I've been saying "they" out of habit to protect their anonymity, but in this case it is relevant that they are female. So this is just me appreciating them (her) as a human being, and I can believe you appreciate this man in a similar way.

I hope I haven't rambled too much. I'm thinking maybe you should not worry about the relationship stuff for a few days, but if you want to talk about that, I will try to help.

Cat, I'm sorry, I had no idea about your dog. I'm backing away. Please let me know if you want to revisit this at a better time.

(((cat)))

Cat, so sorry to hear about your dog. I'm sure this is hard on all of you. When we do it right, our pets become part of our family and it's really hard to let them go when it's time.

I know you've got so many other things on your mind right now. Dealing with this, too, seems to add insult to injury I'm sure.

I understand what you're saying about comparing other people to your H. I do that sometimes, too. It's not the same thing as wanting the other people, it's just that you want your H to possess some degree of the same qualities. When I seem to be getting overwhelmed with those thoughts, I step back and start thinking about the qualities my H does have that I'm thankful for. It at least stops me from focusing on the negative. From there I think about the things I'm doing to make myself better and hope that the improvements I make will inspire him to take a similar look at himself. So far that hasn't worked, but I'm hopeful that it will some day!

Thanks, everyone. And thanks for understanding about the 'other guy' who really isn't. You're right, there would never be anything there, it's just that when they're together, it just drives me crazy to sit there and watch G and then watch H, who never stops putting people down, etc. I know very well it is his insecurity driving this, horrible childhood and all. It just doesn't make it any easier to take 24/7. It just wears you down when you know that 90% of your time together will include him complaining or criticizing.

For example, here's a pattern. We're on our way to church. He keeps his hair relatively long (for a 54 year old) to cover a bad ear. He forgets to comb his hair at home, so he asks us 'girls' if one of us has "bothered to bring a brush this time" (old pattern). I tell him that there should be one in the door pocket, which I now keep there just for this reason. It's not there. So he makes one of his grimaces, for lack of a better word. Sometimes he flat out criticizes us 'girls' for not carrying a brush with us; sometimes he just makes that face (which I'm trying really hard not to react to, but it is hard not to).

I know I should have told him I don't like being talked to like that, but I'm a long way from being able to do that, in the moment. Sometimes I just say 'didn't you bring your comb?' and he drops the subject. Anyway, this morning, getting ready for work, I almost asked him what he is thinking when that situation happens. So, I actually am thinking about taking these steps to clarify our relationship, so that will go a long way to improving things. I say almost, because I could tell he was stressed out about the dog, so I tabled it for now.

btw, what I said last night, about telling him ahead of time I was going to bed, just like he said he wanted me to do? 30 minutes after I told him I wanted to go, and he's still not off his computer, I tell him I'm going, and his angry response: 'Why can't you just wait for me?' I said, I told you 30 minutes ago I was ready. He just said, Fine. Forget it.

So I feel like I'm not getting anywhere.

Cat, I'm sorry that you feel like that, today. There are frustrating days. Especially losing a beloved pet.

The quote below is about giving affection to a spouse, but I think it really applies to our efforts in growing ourselves and our marriages, too. Like they say in Alanon, just keep doing the next right thing.

catperson, I am so sorry to read about your dog. It is so heart-breaking to lose a pet. I can understand why you are taking a step back from working on boundaries right now.

However, I hope that you can get back to it as soon as possible. I'm finding that consistency is key. When I start letting a boundary down, my husband's old patterns return very quickly.

Something you wrote earlier struck a nerve with me. That your husband keeps boxes on the bed. Personally, my mind is such that I would not be able to be intimate with boxes on a bed. I warned my husband before we married that even boxes of clutter under the bed can distract me. I have to know that there are only clean, smooth sheets under there, or I can't sleep.

I'm wondering if you could try creating sacred areas to start reducing your husband's clutter. His clutter definitely sounds like a huge AB on his part. If you could convince him that you would be more in the mood, more enthusiastic, with a clean bed... maybe you could eventually carve out an area that is protected from clutter?

Eventually expanding it to include the area around the bed. Then consider a paint project which would require the bedroom being cleared out. Making way for you to make the entire bedroom a sacred, uncluttered area? I'm just thinking out loud.

I have clutter issues too, so I do this sacred area thing myself. The bathroom is a common area, so I do my utmost to keep it free of clutter. The bedroom is shared by two, so I do my utmost to keep it orderly. My two areas of shame are the basement and my son's room. (And his room isn't really that bad.) I am a reformed 'clutterbug' -- so I can understand your husband to a degree (though he is way beyond even my worst time frames sad to say.)

I'm imagining you do have books on clutter-busting?

I must have written it wrong, his boxes are along the wall, on his side of the bed, not on the bed. But it's still an issue.

Goes back to his avoidance issue. He only deals with 'positive' stuff, stuff that makes him feel good. He has to be in the mood to deal with anything. Instead of whittling away at something, he won't tackle it unless he can finish the whole thing. For instance, he won't clean the garage unless he has the 10-20 hours to clean out the whole thing, and if we start, he won't stop until we're done, even if it means working until 6am the next morning. And if I say I want to stop, he goes ballistic and starts acting like I'm doing him wrong. So of course, his issues get bigger and bigger over the years, as the piles get bigger and bigger.

And he is extremely sensitive about me touching anything of his. For instance, he has 3 counters in the kitchen that he keeps mail and boxes and stuff on. If I move any of it, he blows a gasket. And I hear for months and months how he knew just where everything was and now that I moved it (his other favorite phrase: I stack things everywhere), he can't pay this bill or take back that product.

Basically I have to set up those all important boundaries. I didn't even know what that was until I found MB, so I'm still rolling it around in my head, how to make that work with us. Because he's so hypersensitve. It all comes back to my cringing and caving under his words and looks. I know we'd both be happier if I could just make it right on my side, I'm just so conditioned to cave - it's hard to become what you've never been.

Cat, I can really relate. I felt like my world was caving in, when I first started to follow the part of POJA that says not to do things that you aren't enthusiastic about. The "change back" behavior was SO SCARY from my perspective, and I thought that it was our relationship spiraling out of control, instead of just suffering temporary growing pains.

My H still just the other night started attacking me (verbally) because he asked me to cut tomatoes for the salad, and I declined. He said I refused, after all he's done for me while I was sick the last two weeks. He kept with that kind of comments, while lowering his voice and using a sarcastic tone. His perspective to own. I went for a drive, and came back after 20 minutes, because that's how long Al Turtle says at a minimum it takes to recover from the chemicals released. Let me know if you haven't seen that article and would like me to link it.

Then we were fine. I wasn't in touch with my H&O, but that was okay, I knew it'd come back to me, and I shared it the next day, that I get scared when I see him angry like that. I felt really good about respecting my boundaries.

Have you read on ravengirl's thread about boundary enforcements? I thought they were awesome, and will keep that in mind when we're just low-key annoyed instead of flaming angry.

Rereading my post, H may have been just annoyed, and maybe I could have just stayed and used in the room enforcements. I'll ask him. Do you and your H get annoyed or angry?

Please do provide the link, thanks.

I rarely get angry, rarely even speak, actually, except to get things done. MrCat gets bitter angry, a lot. He's just mad at the world. At least that's the way he appears to us. When I do ask him, he replies that he wasn't angry, that I'm just imagining. But he displays it in grimaces, snarls, rolling the eyes, jerking away if I touch him, and lots and lots of sighs.

He's so disappointed that he hasn't gotten where he wants to be in life, I guess, that everything just isn't worth enjoying. Tons of baggage, but he won't discuss it. So I've been trying to find ways to bring up little pieces of it, in a non-threatening way, so he can at least discuss some of it and maybe feel better.

Cat, how is your IC going? I may have missed your recent updates, but I've been hoping to hear that things are going well and that you're getting what you need out of it.

As for living with Mr.Cat and his dissatisfaction with his life, I am amazed that you're here. After so much time with his negativity, I'd think you wouldn't even be looking for help with your M. I really admire you for what you're doing and how far you've come.

I've had one meeting, and I have another next Tuesday. We haven't really gotten to a point of doing anything yet. D17 went yesterday, and she wants her next meeting to be a joint meeting with her and me, so I'll actually be in two meetings next week.

As for being here, I think it's just my doggedness. All my life, I've felt like an outsider (something my C pointed out), like if I wanted anything I just had to do it myself, no one else was going to do it. I think that's the only thing that's kept me even alive, as I've wanted to give up so many times.

You know, I make it sound like I'm living with Manson or something, but it's not like that all the time. Only with conflict. We're a fairly normal household when we're just going day by day, but it's like a huge weight always on my shoulders that I'm always somewhat aware of.

I think my best first step is just to start trying to be honest. When I think he's being an a$$, I'm going to say so. When I don't want to do what he wants to do, I'm going to say so. When I disagree with how he does something, I'll say so. Things I've learned not to do, to avoid conflict. Life's too short.

And thanks for the kind words.

btw, y'all, our dog started eating again yesterday. although he did throw up afterwards. I guess the swelling in his mouth went down, so I'm going to have to take him in to see if that was just temporary and he can stick around awhile longer. Thanks to everyone for the kind words on that, as well. I appreciate it.

We understand that home life isn't always the crap we post about. I know I've posted so much about life with my H, but most of the time things are pretty normal. (That will likely change when I get to the point that I can talk to him about what I know, but that's for another post...)

For me, at least there's that. If we had to live in constant turmoil we just couldn't do it. I'm glad you're here, Cat, because you offer so much to others. I don't feel qualified to help others right now or even able to step outside my own issues at times.

I hope the weight will gradually lift off of your shoulders and I believe that you're doing the things it will take to make that happen. Knowing what you need to do is a start and you're at the point where you need to gain courage to do those things. You do have the right to be honest with your H and you also have the responsibility to be honest. He probably won't like it much at first, but y'all will figure it out.

I'm glad there's some hope in your dog's situation.

And I know your H can't be all bad. You and he must be doing something right, to have produced your wonderful D!

Yes, I think your next step is to start practicing H&O. Just a word of caution - I know you've gotten used to walking on eggshells, but you don't want to go too far the other way and start LBing. Remember that H&O is not a license to DJ.


Telling him you think he's being an a$$ is a DJ. A better way would be to say "When you do such-and-such I feel embarrassed..." or whatever *you* *feel*. Not what you *think* of *his* behavior.

Telling him when you don't want to do something is good, that's POJA.

<ETA: This originally said "... is god, that's POJA." Oops!>

Telling him you disagree with how he does something, wouldn't that be a DJ too? As in, you are putting yourself forward as the judge of his behavior. It would be better to share with him how his behavior affects you, but he is still a separate person who could disagree with your judgement and still choose differently than you.

I agree that you are having a hard time speaking up due to learning to avoid conflict. And so I am not trying to scold you for standing up for yourself. You are doing good. Just make sure to make your statements about yourself, what you feel, want, and need, not about judging him.

You're right, and I didn't actually mean I would talk like that, I was just giving examples of issues. It will be really hard for me to say anything, let along say it rudely! I'm going to practice some "I" statements ahead of time, so I'll have some ready.

{{{ cat }}}

I know, honey. That's why I hesitated to point the DJ out to you... I certainly don't want to squash your new-found ability to stand up for yourself! I hope you know I agree with all the "you go, girl!" posts.

Yes, I find I really do better when I have statements ready ahead of time.

You go, girl!

Cat, here's the article about taking 20 minutes of time out at least to calm your chemicals.

But rereading this article with you in mind, it seems to me like your H should be the one to take the lead in getting the marriage counseling and doing most of the work to change the marriage dynamics. Because he's the Clinger and you the Avoider. He can do the hard work to transform the environment into a safe one, and then you would naturally open up and be yourself again.

That makes a lot more sense then the scared person to keep calming herself down and trying again, and finding the mad person still mad, stalling the process indefinitely in 20 minute increments.

I don't know, cat. We here can all see the natural leader in you. But is it reasonable to think that your H would hand you the leadership role without a daily battle? Would your H consider working one-on-one with an expert like the Harleys or Al Turtle?

http://al.turtlecounseling.com/blog/_archives/2007/2/6/2715346.html

Or, cat, maybe you'll surprise the heck out of yourself and take that leadership role head-on, no looking back. Girl, if anyone could do it, you can <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, eo. I'm printing it out. MrCat seems to see - or at least acknowledges - no problems in himself. Any comment I make about his actions or choices result in him blindly defending himself and turning everything around to be my fault. Maybe with the knowledge I've gained here, I can once again try to reframe these discussions so that he sees I'm only trying to make the M better, not attack him. As always, it all keeps rolling back to me not being able to talk. I'm hoping C will give me some strength in recognizing my own worth. I hear people like you telling me I have strength or wisdom or knowledge, but it's like I'm looking at it from the other side of a wall, not really 'feeling' it. I can't own it, probably for FOO issues. Lots of work to do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Maybe you can frame things as a help for you and daughter rather than an attack on him. Kind of like "dh, I realize that I'm a real chicken when it comes to telling people how I feel because I'm afraid they'll say something mean to me back. I think this is because of how I'm was raised. I'd like to model better behaviour to dd. Could you help me practise by letting me say a few opinions to you?"

Might not work, but he seems more receptive to the protector role, at least in his head.

Could you apply the format that aeri used? It seems to me that she has a similar problem, and the last time she posted, she had successfully negotiated.

I just wanted to let everyone know who has posted to me that I'm sorry I haven't responded much this week. I've been so screwed up with the death of our dog (we put him to sleep this morning at the vet's) that I haven't really wanted to think about myself. I hope that makes sense. I feel good helping everyone else, but every time I try to slow down and look at myself I start to panic. So I've been avoiding any of that. And I can't stop crying all day.

And I didn't really even like the dog all that much (I'm a cat person, in case you didn't know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />). I'm truly shocked how much his death has affected me. Maybe it's just a signal for deeper issues... who knows.

I'll be back in touch with 'me' problems later when I can deal with them. But anyway, thanks to everyone who has tried to help. More on all that later. You all are a godsend.

cat, I'm so sorry to hear about your dog. Take care of yourself, hon. ((((Cat))))

{{{{{{{ catperson }}}}}}}

I am so sorry.

And please, don't worry for a second about us expecting you to reply. We all understand, I'm sure.

And I *totally* understand about it being easier to reply to others, than to examine and post about oneself.

Cat, I'm so sorry about your dog. I know it's hard to lose a pet - even if it's not your favorite one. There is time to work on the reasons you're hear when you're ready. We understand and you don't owe any explanations.

This is going to sound really silly to you people, but I had a small moment of setting boundaries last night that I wanted to report. My mom moved to town last spring into a retirement community. She'd been out of town since the week I graduated high school - the day after I graduated, she told me she had sold the house and was moving away; I could move with her and go to college up there, or stay here and get a full-time job (I chose to stay because my abusive fiance said he wouldn't wait around for me - another story). Anyway, this is the first time I'd been able to see her on a regular basis, even though it's a 45-minute drive just to get across Houston, each way. So every visit is at least 2 hours long. So we've been going to see her about every 2 weeks.

Background: I've done away with nearly everything in my life that has to do with me, because H would question everything I do that doesn't involve him. If I say I'm meeting a friend for dinner, he'd say "well what are we supposed to do for dinner?" If I said I need to go to Target tonight, he'd say "why couldn't you go at lunch?" So over the years, I just quit putting myself in the position of having to defend myself. Because I didn't understand boundaries.

So yesterday, we just stayed home all day and watched tv and worked on our computers. I said I was going to go see my mom (he was working on a deadline and D17 was sick). I hung around, watched tv and worked, took a shower, dried and straightenend my hair, and then around 4:30, I got up and said I was going. Of course, the first thing out of his mouth was "why couldn't you have gone earlier?" when if I had gone earlier, he would have said "why do you have to go now?"

So, knowing what was coming, and knowing I have to start on boundaries, I just said "because I've been busy all day and now I have time to go." And guess what? Nothing happened!

I know, I know, really silly. I'm just sad it took me 30 years to realize I have the power over my own decisions. And the power not to be affected by his manipulation. Well, that's not entirely true; I still get a knot in my gut every time he says something even as tame as that; father figure and all. But I know that I have to start doing it so that it stops hurting so much.

Anyway, at least I know it and own it and can see myself moving past it.

Yay cat!!!

Good to see you establishing that boundary. Yes, the more you do it, the easier it will get and the less it will hurt.

I hope D17 feels better soon.

Cat, it cheers me up so much to see you stepping out in faith and trying these new things. Nothing happened, and I'd call that Good to Know, too!

When I started stepping out in faith, and trying these new things, and found that I liked it better than the hurtful ways I was replacing, I felt really disappointed and angry that I hadn't stuck with it through the "change back" behavior years ago. I had to take some time to grieve all those missed opportunities that I scared myself away from taking.

Finally, I learned about making amends, and I think continuing to try these things is an effective way to make amends to myself and my family for not getting the support and tools I needed to get and stay brave sooner.

What do you think about this?

The knot in your gut, when you try these things, is that your "change back" instinct?

That is so encouraging that you see yourself moving past it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(((Cat)))

Honestly, the one thing that I use as my crutch for 'making' myself do this hard stuff is that I have to make up to my D17 for not doing it sooner, not giving her a more stable life. I really thank God every day she's turned out as normal and happy as she has, given his negativity. Lots of personal talks with me, explaining how his FOO and all contributed to it. I think that's why she's contemplating going into psychology as a career.

No, really, it's just my fear, knowing he's going to question my integrity or intelligence or common sense or whatever. It's knowing someone I'm supposed to trust (thanks myschae) is going to call me on my actions - actions that have no business being called on, since I'm the Giver 90% of the time.

All my life, my beliefs and actions have been questioned. Even D17 feels safe questioning them, because I have no boundaries. Have you guys seen 27 Dresses, the new movie? I was practically in tears watching it, because I so identify with the main character, who lived her whole life giving up herself for everyone else's sake. It really upset me. The guy in the show has her practice saying no, because she never learned how.

Of course, last night wasn't a total success, because I literally spent the whole time there and back worrying if I was going to be 'punished' for leaving, cutting short my visit out of that fear, and not running an errand for D17 out of fear of being gone too long. I don't mean verbally or physically punished; I mean that whenever I do do something like that, I usually come back to find some catastrophe or other has happened, which 'never would have happened' if I had just stayed home. So I didn't truly enjoy it as I was scared to come home. But again, nothing happened! So progress.

Cat, I find this really interesting. Have you all discussed this, how the DJ, like if last night your H questioned your integrity or illigence, or common sense, is just a front for our insecurity in our ability to negotiate for what we need?

Is it okay with you if he asked if it was a failing on your part and you to clarified that it was not? What if he came to an assumption, would you be willing to clarify in that case why what you're doing makes sense to you.

In Alanon, they have a saying, Don't justify, argue or defend, or explain. The acronym for that is JADE. Would you be willing to clarify instead?

If he'd said no to going to visit your mom last night, would you have been willing to negotiate that? Or would you have thought that you've done your percentage of the giving already, so you're not willing to negotiate.

The last paragraph, does taht relate to what mys spoke about trust? Do you trust your DD17 and H to be able to care for themselves for an evening while you visit your mom? Would the visual of putting them in God's care (Let Go and Let God) help?

ears, I don't know why, but I just can't figure out what you're asking. Are you saying I'm DJing by saying I expect him to question me going? Because he does question me, every time I go anywhere. Not so much question why I'm going, as much as why can't I do it to have less impact on him. But no, we don't discuss it, unless he comes out and says why are you going or why can't you blah blah blah? If he does, I answer him, but he phrases it so that I feel I have to defend my action ("Why couldn't you have gone earlier?")

I've been willing to negotiate, it's more that I shouldn't have to. Basically, he was working on a PowerPoint project for work that he wanted me there for, on 'standby', in case he needs me to spell a word for him or check something or give my opinion. He always has something he is working on, that he needs me right next to him for. Here's a little example from yesterday. I'm on my side of the bed, D17's in the middle, we're watching tv, working on our own laptops. He says "come here and look at this." I get up, walk around, stand by his side, and wait to see what he wants me to look at. I stand there, he's flipping from screen to screen. I keep standing there. After at least 5 minutes, I start to walk away, to go back to my job, and say "let me know when you're ready for me to look at it." He angrily says 'Wait a minute! Can't you just wait?!" So I say, "I've been standing here for 5 minutes. If you're not ready for me to look at it, I'll come back." He replies, "Just look at this, dammit!" So, properly chastened, I stay and wait til he gets the page up.

In so doing, I've just been put in the position of defending my action (NOT continuing to stand there and wait for him). My stomach is in knots yet again. This is a typical, daily interaction with us.

CP,

Can I throw something your way?

Your DH says "Why couldn't you have gone earlier?" when you're leaving to go somewhere...

Listen and repeat would look like this: "I hear you wish I would have gone earlier." Simple acknowledgement...changing it from a why question into what you really need to hear...not you doing...his preference...his stuff.

Any knots from that?

About the laptop/ppp incident...

You assumed he was ready to show you what he wanted your opinion on...now you know to ask before you get up, "Are you ready for me to come over there?"

He may say yes and still be paging through...you won't know. You will know when you get there. Do you want to really connect with your DH? At the point you were ready to go back and continue your own work, you might have knelt down, looked him in the eye, caressing hand on his face, with you making eye contact..."I think you're frustrated right now." Calm, respectful, sharing your impression. In this together...just like him wanting you to see something with your eyes...eyes he trusts and respects.

When he curses, "I don't like the swearing, DH. I know you'll find what you're looking for and that I'll come over there when you do...or you can bring it over to me, if you wish."

Teammates...no stomach knots...you're assured that your actions align to your code. Do you fear his anger? Do you fear his frustration, upset...adding to it, controlling it...being the cause, contributor, cure of it?

LA

Well, if I said that, he'd look at me like I'm nuts, and say 'what the H are you talking about?' LOL So, yes, I would get knots because it would frustrate him and he would try to regain control by being even ruder.

I'll see if I can find an opportunity to try it, though.

The background I'm not giving, I guess, is that he does it on purpose. Makes us wait. It's a control thing, I guess, but he does it with everything. If it's time to go somewhere, he'll keep watching tv while we stand there. If it's time for dinner, I say so, we'll be sitting at the table for a good 10-15 minutes before he will get up and come; sometimes we're done with dinner by the time he gets up. And yes, I have learned to tell him it's ready long before it really is; he still waits until we are sitting before he will move. If we're at my mom's and we need to go, I'll make our goodbyes, say we have to go, and he will sit there intentionally, playing with the cat or watching tv, ignoring the fact that we're by now standing with keys in hand. I could go on, but you get the idea. I've asked him why he does it and he denies doing it; I show examples, he says I'm imagining. So him not having the page ready was deliberate, at least subconsciously. Even if he's at the page, he will still hold on to the computer and look at it, while I stand waiting. This happens almost daily, in one form or another.

Even thinking of saying that gives me knots, LOL. And yes, I fear his anger, frustration, upset, everything. I basically fear everything. Because I have no self-worth.

Thanks for asking for clarification. No, I hadn't thought you were DJing for thinking he'd question you. I thought that you were kind of predicting what you thought would be likely to happen. That makes a new situation less scary.

The DJ I was asking about was the one where he comes out and questions your integrity, intelligence or common sense. When he does that, or even before, would you be willing to discuss the idea of a DJ, and explain that this is an effort to gain at the other's expense? Would you be willing to introduce an alternative, which is negotiating a solution that works for both people?


Cat, aren't you the one who gives us the needed reminder that we teach people how to treat us? What would be a way to handle an interaction like this that would leave you feeling good about yourself? Are you willing to discuss this?

Edited to add, I just saw how LA describes a different way to handle that interaction. Cat, would that feel more honest than to stand there chastised. The chastened stance feels dishonest to me in that I see you as someone who is no longer willing to participate in that dance. Someone who is ready to dance a new dance <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Cat, your husband sounds so much like my Dad. He was loud, obnoxious, belligerent, and deep down very hurt. I spent most of my childhood avoiding him, or trying to be invisible when he was around. He made me feel like I had to beg for every breath I took.

Fast forward to now...when someone acts meanly toward me, I feel like I have to give a justification for every thought and feeling I have. In hind-sight I realize it's not true, but it has taken practice to learn how not to make the knee-jerk reaction to an obnoxious comment.

When your husband dawdles and you're ready to leave, if you're driving make the annnouncement that you are leaving now and then leave. Guaranteed that he will elevate his rear off the couch.

If he says "Come and look at this dammit!" learn to say "I don't do anything for people that yell at me. If you ask nicely, I'll come look".

If he asks "Why didn't you go earlier" ask him "Why didn't you mow the lawn already". He'll likely say "Because I didn't feel like it". Then answer "Ditto, same for me". Then leave with a smile and a kiss on the cheek for him.

Webfootgirl and LA, thanks, I think it helps when someone gives me actual statements to make. I will think on them and figure out which will work best for me.

I think that might be doable. Just now, we're sitting on the bed with him trying to reconnect to our DVR service. We have a wire that's been running across the floor for 4 1/2 years because he hasn't found another way to connect it, and I keep tripping over it. So it disconnected, and he said 'you must have tripped over it and disconnected it.' So I said, 'Or you did.' I have to start catching these statements, because I think I've heard them so long I don't even notice he's doing it to me any more.

ETA, so, yeah, just for saying that (or you did), he spent the next hour huffing and puffing (sighing loudly) all over the house as he tried to fix the phone cord, muttering about how he should have just stayed at work, no one wants him here, all he does is work, work, work when he gets home (at which point I came in the room and said 'you know, I come home from work and work every single night.' So he finished the problem, got in bed and promptly fell asleep his ultimate symbol of being oppressed by me. Any time I stand up to him, he sits down and goes to sleep. I guess so I can't argue any more.

I'm sorry it seems like I'm just unloading here. I'm really trying to chronicle stuff so I can go back and see how much I'm DJing and not being honest and all that. And to see if anyone has any other insight than what I'm getting from it.

I wonder whether you might have a talk with him about how many times he says critical or belittling things. Probably he doesn't even realize that he's doing it, its just the way he sees it. He is right and reasonable, and if the rest of the world would just fall in line, then everything would be hunky-dory.

So you could have that convo, and then when he says something negative you go "that's one." Or if that's too scary, you could just write the incidents down and at the end of the day hand him the paper.

Something that's worked for me with my dh is to say "would you like to re-phrase that?"

However, if your dh is deeply entrenched in the "I'm the king and master of my castle, my every wish must be catered to, and my beliefs form the universe", this is another battle altogether.

Thanks for the suggestion, but that's my whole problem in a nutshell. He refuses to entertain the idea that he does anything wrong. He is so severely insecure and determined to prove his worth that he will not allow anyone to entertain the thought that he is wrong about anything. Look at how freaked out he got just by my saying "or you did" and just barely suggesting that he may have been the one to knock a freakin' cord loose. An hour later, and he's still not speaking.

I know you're all right. I have to have the conversations. But I was never strong to begin with and after all these years, it's practically as though I was a battered wife. I get sick in my stomach just thinking about saying anything. Because I know from experience that any time I've said anything in the past, he stops listening and starts defending himself and getting angry. That's why I'm here, to try to figure out how to give myself courage.

Just keep getting back up and trying again. You were feeling great this morning, why are you feeling dejected now? Here's what I thought: the change-back behavior is working. But no, cat! I'm choosing not to buy into that belief! I'm going to ask you, instead, why you felt better this mroning, and crappy now.

At Alanon, they suggest when someone is suffering from their illness, to ask yourself, what would I be doing now if this person wasn't acting this way? Have I ever asked you about your self-care?

For me, it makes me feel better to share my filter, like "wow, when you say that, I hear that I'm not allowed to have a different opinion. Even though I already know that it's totally valid for us to have two different opinions. I'm working on that." I'm not saying that as advice, just hoping to get you thinking about what you'd like to say.

Good stuff, thanks. I felt better in the morning because, as is typical in abusive relationships, my mood matches my H's mood out of self-preservation; if he's feeling good and generous and not threatening, I'm feeling good. If he's angry, I retreat into my shell for protection. It's really that simple, at least for me.

I know how unhealthy that is. But when you start with no self-esteem, and live a life where every person in it continues the debasing behavior, it's hard to find the courage to step outside that protective behavior you create.

That's a good thing to hang onto, actually. I think about it occasionally (and it makes me cry), who I would be if I were living alone. It's one of the things I allow myself to fantasize about, if I were to leave him next year. I picture myself alone, finally, with no one to care about except myself. It sounds like heaven. As for self-care, he doesn't begrudge me self-care, as long as it doesn't affect the time that he would be spending with me. Does that make sense? Say he gets home from work at 7pm every day. He really couldn't care less what I do until 7; but anything I try to plan for after that, I get that 'why can't you do that at lunch?' or 'why do you have to do that now?' or 'why do you need to go to the store?', etc. And I know that's not a reason NOT to go, but my cocoon reflex just tells me to not plan anything so I don't have to hear it and feel like my integrity et al. are being questioned and I'm having to defend myself. I know this isn't healthy or normal, and I know I have to do the things to start changing the dynamics. For instance, I'm meeting an old friend after work Thursday, and it will be a good chance to practice this.

I like that one, I may use it.

FWIW, I want to let you know that after checking the thread this morning before I left, I felt emboldended and went in and actually said something! He was already out of bed, and I was going to do one of those drive-bys, so I started to turn around and leave, but I went ahead and went into the bathroom. It went something like this: "I need to say something. I know that last night you were horny and you were looking for having a nice night and then you had to work on the cord, so it upset you. But I didn't do anything wrong, and it hurt my feelings that it was all being blamed on me."

Something like that. Not the right way to say it, I know, but I was shakin' in my boots to say even that. He gave me 'that look' of disgust that he has, but all he said was 'Ok.'

So...baby steps. Thanks to all of you for getting me to this point.

Great drive-by, cat! I'm really proud of you for the H&O even though you were shaking in your boots. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You and ears are giving such great advice to each other, I have nothing to add except cheers right now. I'm not ignoring ya!

Am I mistaken, or are you both giving each other the same advice? "Do what you'd be doing if this other person weren't in your life." Neato.

Sometimes I wish we could all just trade lives for awhile. We could fix each other's life up in no time!

LOL, yeah, kind of like it's fun to clean someone else's house, yes?

H has called me 3 or 4 times this morning (for help with his work) and is talking really strangely, I think he's being...careful. I think I really shook him up. The first call, he said "After we had that talk this morning (yeah, right, all he said was 'ok', LOL), it went from bad to worse. My car broke down."

But we've been very 'nice' to each other each time he's called. So I'm either in for more nice tonight, or him spending all day creating a defense to throw in my face, like he usually does. It will be interesting. He knows I've been reading about marriages and stuff, and I know he's seen the MB header on the computer from time to time, so I think he's semi-aware that I'm trying to change things.

Wow, Cat. You know, once you start identifying these patterns, you'll see how they don't fit you anymore, and keep trying things that do. It's a really amazing process, and I'm thankful that you choose to share it with us.

When you get time, if you search on Al Turtle's site, there is a great article on MasterTalk. I'm glad your post reminded me of it. It explains how we can use our language to help us reshape our thinking from thinking there's a boss and a subordinate, to living as equal partners.

It's very interesting to me how it's affected my parenting, and it's a little scary having kids who are equal partners, so maybe I wasn't supposed to talk with them this way, too LOL. But it's really subtle yet huge how it changes the dynamics.

Thanks, ears, I'll look that up today.

Here's my update. MrCat called me that next day and said, "So....let's talk about that little talk we had this morning. What made you think I was horny?" I said, "Because you were all happy and smiling and acting goofy all over the kitchen, and you're always that way when you are." So he said, "Well, I was just glad to be home early and having dinner with you guys, and you were hanging out in the kitchen, so so was I." I said ok. Then he changed the subject. LOL, all he got out of it was that I assumed he was horny. Oh well, at least we didn't fight after that.

Oh, and I also went to get a pedicure that day after going to the doctor because D17 needed her eyebrows waxed - only the second pedicure I've ever had - and when he called on his way home I actually told him where I was, where before I never told him if I was doing anything for myself, for fear of getting his 'why are you doing that?' questioning. And I told him I had to go back to the store after that to pick up my medicine (trying to fight off pneumonia) and we wouldn't be home til later. When we got home, he was cooking dinner!

My further updates. He got home early yesterday, too, for some reason (usually not home until 7 or 8), so I went ahead and made dinner, but he was sitting on the couch, and we made ready to take D17 to church, and he was surprised we were leaving. He never remembers any appointments or scheduled events. So I reminded him it was Wednesday, she had church, and he started with the pouty face and saying 'why does she want to go to that? are you sure she doesn't want to stay home?', but instead of doing what I've always done before - ask him if he wants us to stay at home (to please him and keep him from pouting) - I just said, "Do you want to go?" He was a little irritated, but he just said no. So I said ok, bye, and we left. Of course, when we got home at 9, he was asleep in bed, which is his way of showing displeasure, but oh well. I just went to bed, too, and got 8 hours sleep for once.

And this morning I said, "I'm having dinner tonight after work with B." All he said was, "Is that your friend from XYZ (my old job)?" I said "Yeah. I need to give her the Tupperware she ordered from me a year ago and haven't given her because we haven't seen each other in a year." Then I said, "And there's a meeting at school about colleges at 7." He didn't say anything, so I kissed him goodbye and left.

So, butterflies aside, I did pretty well. I almost told him I also had an appointment with the C at 4, but I figured piling 3 things on him at once, especially a C session where he has to know I'm talking about him, would be a little much for our little dynamics.

So, baby steps, so far so good.

How did you feel when you realized that the "consequences" of your H&O weren't as bad as you anticipated? Sounds like you did very well with the whole thing, Cat. The part I especially like is that when he was showing his displeasure by being asleep when you got home it didn't bother you at all. You didn't seem to worry about how he'd be the next morning. These are big steps for you personally. Maybe smaller steps in the grand scheme, but you're gaining confidence with every effort you make. His behavior is also starting to change - maybe smaller changes so far, but he is defnitely picking up on your new approach.

Good for you, Cat! You're worthy of a good and happy life and you're taking the steps to get you there. I know big positive changes are around the corner for you.

Cat, good for you for taking steps that you're enthusiastic about! And good for your H for avoiding the "change back" behavior!

Holy cow, cat, you're awesome! You're really standing firm, making your statements without DJs and without accepting his DJ comments as accurate. You're resisting his change-back messages! And the sky isn't falling in!

It's amusing that he focussed on the "you were horny" aspect.

This is why I think your DH has OCPD. He cannot allow himself to be wrong, which is a main symptom.

It is, but he doesn't fit a lot of the other symptoms. He's not preoccupied with details or rules, no one thinks he's stingy or self-righteous. The only time he ever shows perfectionism is when he's building something, and he hasn't built anything in 5 or 10 years. He doesn't have any rules or procedures for anything; in fact he's a pretty big slob and he takes NOT keeping things in order to an extreme.

I'm not trying to dispute it, I just don't see the comparison, except for him wanting admiration so badly to make up for his low self-esteem. And I'm the only person in his life who has allowed him to control them, so I think it just feels good for him to have someone lower than him on the totem pole.

But please provide more details, if you really see it. Anything to help me understand.

Cat, from the way you describe your husband it sounds like being super-controlling and negative is his way to stay safe. When you register your own opinion he has the immediate feeling that something is not tied down and that things may go horribly wrong.

Something that I wondered about with this insisting that you be home to tend to his needs in the evening...I wonder if he thinks that if he "lets" you start going out and doing things on your own that eventually you won't want to be at home at all.

I like the idea of you doing the things that you think you might do if you were single. I've fallen in the trap of giving up hobbies or activies after marriage because I wanted to spend time with my husband. Its important to have your own areas of expertise and fun along with the RC time you have with your husband.

I can't remember, is there anything that you and your dh do together that's fun, or does he just want to stay home?

Wow.
I just joined. Your husband is really really lucky to have you. And he KNOWS it. In his mind, if he allows you to do things for yourself, you willfind out how much fun life can be without him and bye bye. He certainly is passive aggressive.

It sucks growing up in a hideous family and I feel for both of you. It is obvious that the push your marriage needs to be a fulfilling loving marriage will HAVE to come from you. And I really think your husband will go along after a while. I think he married you because he saw this great person who was even more scared about life than he was. ANd since he is too scared and insecure to face the world and its ups and downs, he has tried to keep you on his level, afraid that once you smell the beautiful fresh air, you will want more and more out of life and I think that scares the poopoo out of him. He needs you. He can keep you down or you can bring him up. But I feel that YOU are the one blessed with what it takes to grasp life with both hands. If hes smart he will grap your coat and hang on for the ride.

You really are an impressive person. Good luck.

I think you're right about the fear. I spent the first 5 years of marriage reassuring him that I really wanted to be married to him. Which is weird, because before we married, he was a total ladies man. We worked together, and he had tons of girls calling for him, and the idiots would stay on hold just waiting to talk to him, sometimes for 30 minutes or more!

He quit playing sports with me (tennis, raquetball, bowling) decades ago because I always beat him. But I've been thinking about starting to ramp up tennis and raquetball again with D17 and hopefully he'll join along.

The only other thing he likes to do is movies. But his perfect world is for the 3 of us to stay in our bed and watch tv all day.

Thanks, gabagool. Sounds like a good estimation. My C agrees that he is just afraid.

So, update.

Who knew that a 30-second comment on Tuesday morning would lead to such a whirlwind week? He came home early again last night, just as I was starting my new policy for D17 for the night - 30 minutes of cleaning every day. We stop what we're doing, and just clean, pick up, organize, whatever, for 30 minutes. Then we stop and go back to our lives. We've only done it twice so far, but you wouldn't believe the difference in our house! And you may know that the messy house is my biggest EN, so I'm feeling really good about that.

Anyway, he came in as we were starting. I explained to him my new 30-minute policy. I didn't tell him I wanted him to participate (that would have been nagging to him), but I handed him a bunch of his shirts in the laundry room and asked him to hang them up. He did! Then he came into the kitchen and started picking up! He went through his mail, picked up, and even vacuumed the living room!

And then he went to a meeting at school with us! I returned the favor by giving him public affection, holding his hand at school and such, and sat with him on the couch and watched tv (even though I needed to work), and then he got SF for the second time this week.

So I'm trying to solidify for him how great things are when I get to speak my peace - peacefully - and when he helps me.

And I had told him that morning that I was going out to eat with a friend, but she had to cancel, so I called him to tell him that I had rescheduled it. He said, 'you didn't have to tell me that' and I said, 'I know, I just wanted to let you know where I am, if you need me' - which led to him coming home early. So my going out was discussed out in the open and he showed no bristling about it. Good stuff.

As for going to C yesterday, she gave me an A+ for this week. My goals from her are to plan to do one thing for myself each week, like the pedicure I got; to tell myself I have the right to look good and dress well, even though I'm 30-40 pounds overweight because my appearance is such a big issue for me, based on FOO stuff; and something else, but I forgot it. I knew I should have written it down! I might have to call her.

Anyway, one of the best weeks I've had in years, maybe decades.

Oh, I have to add, that I told C about my conversation, and I called it a drive-by (can't remember, who should I thank here for that term?), and she was just ecstatic about that term! She loved it! Don't be surprised if it doesn't start surfacing in psychology circles!

Wow, cat, that's so cool! I love seeing you take ownership of your actions!


Cat, it bothers me when you say this stuff, as if you were taking responsibility for his perspective. Seperate and equal, hon, his perspective to own. It'll make it easier to get into the habit of thinking like that now, when things are going well. Then on the bad days, you'll have this to fall back on.

You're right. I guess what I meant is that instead of just ignoring him or doing my own thing, when he 'gives' I feel a little bit of love for him and I want to make a conscious effort to reciprocate. For instance, he used to kiss me goodbye every day and say I love you. But over the years and my resentment, I removed myself from the equation, so that affection disappeared. So I've been making a point to remember to kiss him goodbye. Can't quite say I love you, but I might get there.

God
I do something nice for you

You do something nice for me.

I've forgotten how simple the rules are.

Thnaks, cat. I suspected that you did feel that way, but were just using the same old words out of habit <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Giving as a gift freely given

and

Making a choice to love

instead of Giving to Get

Yep. Golden Rule, baby! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

A+ Catperson.....You Go Girl!

Cat, so much progress! I'm so happy to see your proactive approach and setting aside your fear. Do you feel that fear diminishing just a bit?

It feels so good to put a plan into motion and get results. I'm so very happy for you that you've gotten the courage to make your move!

Yes, I'm a little less fearful now. Starting to see a little bit of the guy I used to know.

C asked me what I want. I told her that when I look at other women, I see them making decisions and then doing stuff. Whereas I think of something and immediately think if he'll get upset. I want to get to where I never think that again.

Oh, that's the other thing I'm supposed to do, I remember now; I'm supposed to, every time I want to do something - say the pedicure - and think that I shouldn't or he'll be mad or I'll have to justify my actions, I'm supposed to picture the thousands of women around the world having a pedicure that very moment and never giving it a moment's thought...because it ISN'T a big deal and it IS what normal women have in their lives. That's a hard one for me.

I think that part will get easier as you go, Cat. It sounds like you've started allowing H to be in a bad mood if he chooses and that's part of your process. So if you choose to do something for yourself and he gets mad, then he'll get over it. I know it doesn't happen overnight, but you're on the right path.

The other thing that's happening is that H isn't always getting mad. So the way you're handling it must be working. I was so happy to hear you say that you've seen bits of the man you used to know. I'm sure that's some big incentive to keep doing what you're doing and deal with any bumps in the road as just blips.

Wow, cat, that would be hard. I like how in the POJA section, Dr. H suggests the words, "How would you feel about..." You can reaffirm for yourself that you're not digging yourself into a horrible ditch, that everything's fine.

By the way, my H does have a problem with me getting a pedicure. He says it costs too much. Good to know. So I asked if he'd give me a foot rub with my favorite lotion. Which he did. So we found a win-win.

I actually only got the pedicure because (1) D17 asked to get her eyebrows waxed so I was there and (2) I have a problem with my toenails that I have a hard time fixing myself and the one other time I got one, I discovered that they fix the problem. Otherwise, I wouldn't be spending the money, believe me. I don't usually get but 2 haircuts a year.

I discussed in C yesterday that I've never been comfortable being female. My father wanted a boy, so I had to be a tomboy to get his attention; my older brother tried to make me think being female was a bad thing so I wouldn't have sex in high school; my fiance pretty much remade me in the image he wanted for a girlfriend, and I've been broke my entire adult life so have never spent money on myself. So it's a pretty alien concept for me. I get embarrassed if I look at myself in the mirror at work and someone sees me.

MrCat used to rub my feet, but the last few years he's...resentful? He does a half-a## job for at most 60 seconds, and then stops. Even though he knows I have plantar fasciitis and perpetually painful feet and I would choose a foot rub over a thousand dollars. I'm going to assume (I know...) that he feels that since I've withdrawn from him, why should he make the effort. One of the reasons I've been trying to fill his 'love bucket.'

Cat, I'm glad that that strategy is working for you. What helped me also was to check my intent. Sometimes my H would be against me taking a second car when I was not okay enabling his drinking by chauffering him. I wasn't taking a second car to make a point to H, I was taking a car because I had no room for building one more speck of resentment at that time.

I don't know if thousands of women needed to do that, but I know I needed to do that to really get it that it was my choice whether or not to enable my H at that moment.

Oh, cat, sorry, I didn't mean that there's anything wrong with you getting a pedicure. I think it's great, and I'd like to get one, too! I just meant that your H may not always be enthusiastic about everything that thousands of other women get to do, but that's okay, too.

My H doesn't usually like to give a foot rub, either, but said he was enthusiastic so that I'd stop negotiating for the pedicure. It's a work in progress <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My SiL has plantar fasciitis, too. Have you tried sleeping with those boots that stretch the area while you sleep?

Honestly I haven't wanted to spend the $25 per boot. I keep looking at them. I may try to save up for it, but as it is, I'm taking some of my bills home to my H to tell him that I can't pay them this month. I may have mentioned we got $130,000 from the sale of our house last spring, but H invested it instead of paying off all our bills, so I am once again maxed out on my paycheck vs. bills. So all I can do is give him the ones I can't pay, since he refuses to fix the problem. And I've spent several hundred dollars the last few weeks on D17's chiropractor and dance class (you have to pay $250 up front). So I tend to put off paying for stuff for myself. The pedicure was a fling and I'm already sorry I spent the $20, cos my checking account is close to overdrawing.

You are on the mark.

It's one of the issues we are dealing with.
If he's not making this his business, don't include him at all.

My DW shared with me that on our previous vacations, she would spend the whole trip trying to keep the kids from upsetting me, and said she felt as she was walking on eggshels...the whole trip.

I was completely unaware of the underling building resentment or what the cause was.

To believe she needed to do this, she would have to believe that I am some kind of moody bully. I'm not. I'm happy...and I'm on vacation.

What a terrible set up for everyone. If anyone did anything BUT smile she would say that the entire trip was ruined.

Her belief that somehow she was/is responsible for my thoughts and general mood, good or bad... is false.

She also felt/feels that somehow she could be responsible for the actions of three children on vacation.

What power she must posses!

If I would stop and correct the bad behavior of a beloved child she would blowup.
The kids have a blast on our vacations. They tell us for months afterwords, and want to go again...and again, so do I.

So..DW...Please don't send me a bill for eggshells that I did not order.

My mood cloudy or sunny is my bag to carry.

You're not responsible for it...at all.

I hope that takes the burdon off of you.

Back when I was doing regular therapy, and was suicidal, I told him that I was afraid of him - what did I have to lose? It upset him, and he has calmed down a lot from then. But as long as I don't bring such things up, he won't. He just forgets about them. But I gave up on all the progess I made. So I'm starting over.

Case in point. This morning after taking D17 to her chiropractor, I came back (he was still lying in bed watching tv, which he'll do all day) and came up to him and asked if he would get the Christmas boxes out of the attic so I could take down Christmas decorations and the tree. He started talking to the cat, his typical way of avoiding my 'nagging' him. But this time I didn't walk away; I just stood there and was in fact getting ready to ask him if he heard what I asked, when he stopped talking to the cat and said "Ok, I'll get them down."

So. Small victories.

Catperson, just wanted to say, you are doing so great.

Hi Catperson,

I've nothing really apropos to say about your thread, other than I love the progress you're making.

However, I tend to get plantar fasciitis easily too (short calf muscles make for beautifully toned and muscly calves but easily hurt feet!) when I run too much.

I bought one of these sock devices for stretching your feet, but I never use it - I sleep curled up and it gets in the way so I can't sleep, and if I just run short stretches instead of insisting on an hour every time, I don't get an irritated foot. If you'd like, I can send you my sock device.

cat,

yeah for small victories!! they all add up.

best wishes to you.

WolfDeca, that's really sweet of you. I would love to at least try one, to see if I can use it. Can you PM/email me? How does it work here? I will pay you for the packaging and postage. Thanks again.

Catperson - I can't seem to send you a PM.

* Got your e-mail! *

Cat,

I just wanted to share with you that I read your entire thread last night from start to finish. I wanted to comment on how much progress I see that you are making.

I wanted to share with you that I admire you for making a choice after 30 years of M to change the dance steps.

I respect your choice to do the work on your self, the FOO issues, etc. to start living a more happy and emotionally healthy life for yourself. Good self care to choose to go to IC. You are doing great.

I so admire that when someone has called you on a DJ here to either your DH or to yourself that you are willing to own it and work on making different choices in the future.

This has been on of the most uplifting and encouraging threads I have read on MB.

I believe you have so much to offer in the support of BTE, and many others here too. I really respect your choice to work with BTE and go the distance with her. Thank you.

Like others have said about you here... you have some true grit girl.

Amazing you are.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Jilly

jj, thank you very much, it means a lot. And I'm glad you think I've been helpful, that's all I want.

Hey Cat,

You are helpful. Wanna help me with something else? I noticed here that Ears suggested the Owning Your Own Villagers thread. I was thinking that it might be nice to start a new thread here on the EN board with that title... what do you think?

I could really do the exercise again, would be helpful to me. Are you interested?

Jilly

Oooh oooh oooh can I join?

I don't even know what that means! But go right ahead. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Anyone can join. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Cat,

There is a book called Healing The Shame That Binds You by John Bradshaw. LA started a thread on GQ about one of the exercises in the book called Owning All Your Villagers. I posted part of the exercise on BTE's thread. The one where I asked her to name 10 people she really detests... did you read that post from me to her. If not I will explain the exercise again in the thread.

I think I will start it tomorrow evening. I want to get the book out and make sure that I word the directions for the exercise correctly. Doing the exercise was really helpful.

It was a really healing thread for many of us that participated in it. I could really benefit from doing the exercise again.

Again anyone who wants to is free to participate.

Jilly

I read that post. Sounds interesting.

Went to a book sale at the library Saturday, and got a bunch of books on self and marriage, etc. Starting one on codependency, to see if it applies. Going there was a good exercise for me. Took D17 to chiropractor at 8:30 but the library wasn't open until 10, so we went home. Then around 10:30 D asked if we were going to go back to library. I knew MrCat would question us going out again (it's a bit of a drive into town), but I went and told him we were going. When he asked why, I explained, adding that we could get books really cheap, which is good in his mind, as he thinks we have too many books already). Asked him if he wanted to go, of course he said no (still in bed). But we went anyway, even though he wasn't happy. So that's good. Doing what C told me to do.

I then asked him (for the second week) if he would get the Christmas boxes out of the attic, he said yes. But when we got back near noon, he was still in bed and said he had taken Nyquil! Like I've said, when I ask him for something, he finds a way to make it impossible for him to follow through right then and there. I'm not saying he wasn't sick, but...*sigh*. But I was determined not to push it.

Anyway, he finally got the boxes down Sunday (on his own terms) - after our friends came over and he got embarrassed that the tree was still up, and did help me put everything away, which took at least half the day.

And today my car wouldn't start so instead of leaving me there to deal with the tow truck, he stayed and then followed me to the dealer to see what was wrong, and didn't get into work til after 10.

Now, my old self (and I have to admit I was thinking it) would have been saying, he doesn't trust me to deal with the dealership and not get screwed, that's why he's following me; he's certainly said so enough times. But instead of letting myself feel that way, I consciously tried to see it in a good light - lucky I have a husband who looks after me and helps me. Trying to fill up the 'love bucket.'

Cat,

I am excited to hear that you are open to trying the exercise. It was very rewarding for me.

Yeah... the Christmas stuff is put away. You can scratch that one off your to do list. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good for your for choosing to look at things with the car dealership on the light side... keep working on the love bucket. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You really do give me so much hope. Thanks for being YOU.

Jilly

I had an IC meeting tonight. I wasn't in there 3 minutes before I started crying, and kept crying on and off the whole hour. I don't cry in front of anyone. I don't have feelings in front of anyone.

I told her D17 today asked me how my day was, and I was surprised and suspicious. No one ever asks me about myself. I never talk about myself. I told IC I thought that she was asking me because she knows I'm depressed and she's trying to take care of me, just like I took care of my mother in my teens, and how it made me feel guilty that I'm so screwed up my daughter's turning into a Giver because of me. She asked me to consider that D17 asked me about myself simply because she's getting older and can really be interested in my life. I can't see it. My life is too unimportant for her to care about it. I know that's unhealthy thinking, but there it is.

Talked about our money problems, and IC asked me to tell her what would happen if I brought up paying off our bills again, so I went through a typical blowup, which usually leaves me shredded and just wanting to die. I think I'm scaring IC cos this is the second meeting that suicide has come up; she wants to see me next week. Little does she know that I have a death wish hovering around in the back of my head all the time, as in driving down the road thinking 'whoa I almost got in a wreck - gee I wish it would have just happened so everything would be over.'

We talked about how profoundly sad I am that I gave up my dream job at NASA, the only job I ever wanted, because of our money problems - which I take half the responsibility for, by being so bad about paying bills and such. But it hit me that that sadness is so VERY profound that it's clouding everything else in my life. I don't think I'll ever get over it.

On the way home, I was thinking what I'd say if H asked me directly why I'm going to IC, because I'm going late at night when he comes home and I'm not here - a big change at our house. I tell myself that if it happens I'm just going to tell the truth, for once, and tell him that I have a ton of issues that are mostly related to him. Don't know if I'll have that much courage, though.

{{{{{ cat }}}}}

Change is painful and scary. I'm proud of you for being brave enough to talk to your IC about these things. I'm very proud of you for deciding to just tell your H the truth. I hope you were able to do that.

And we aren't allowed the luxury of a death wish you know, not once we become mothers... please be careful, 'kay?

Is this silence a Villager that you don't like? Want to bring it to the Villagers thread?

I like how LovingAnyway says, "State, Don't Demonstrate" You have the second part down really good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You have been brave enough to look at the silence before. That you are afraid specifically of your H's disapproval. LA asked me to try giving myself what I wasn't getting from my H. What would giving yourself approval look like for you?

I care about you so much, and am so sorry that yesterday was so hard. Could you be mourning a loss, like the decision to step aside from your dream job, working through to get to acceptance, so that today you can move forward from strength and honesty?



I hear you about the fears of parentifying our kids. I think that you are a safe person for your daughter to Give to, though. I was a big caregiver at 17, the oldest of 6 kids, and the youngest four kids all 6 and under. Cat, I really thrived like that. It encouraged me to go into teaching, even though later I found that it takes a lot more skill and talent to deal with 32 kids than it does with 5! I stayed out of trouble, and I am really close with them all now as adults. Maybe your daughter finds her time with you her favorite time of the day, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I love listening to my Grandpa's stories. I am so glad that he shares them with me. But you feel like your daughter is just suffering from parentification. Have you asked her? Why does your mind go to and pick out the worst belief in the bunch? Is there a false payoff in there?

Would that justify leaving, if your daughter is being harmed by the current situation? Would that be your motivation to take on the changes that you want to be doing, if your daughter is being guilted, today?



I remember that vanishing wish. Even after all this retraining, that sneaky thing still pops back up! But I recognize it much faster, move through it faster, and get over it faster. Looking back, I think that it was my mind telling me that those situations I was staying in were not okay. That I needed to be out of them. Al Turtle says, don't divorce the spouse, divorce the marriage. The same way, what are these thoughts telling you? Are they pushing you to make some scary changes for fear of what would happen if you don't make them?

There was an awesome post on InRecovery a long time ago about how people motivate themselves negatively because that's all they know from being kids. "You better do that or..." Like getting up for work, "you better get up now or you'll be late." But that we get used to those threats, so we make them bigger. "You better get up now or you'll be late and lose your job." Then, "You better get up now or you'll be late and lose your job and be homeless." But that leads to negative association to all the things that we do in a day.

It suggests using positive reinformcement in your thoughts instead. And then over time, you'll also make your dreams bigger. "Time to get up, so you can show 'em how great you'll do on that new project today." Then, "Time to get up, so you can show 'em how great you'll do leading that new department today."

Hold, do you read here? Did I get that all, or is there something that you'd like to add in about that?



Cat, with your H, I wish you well with whatever you tell him.

((((Cat))))

Hey cp

Hope you don't mind if I jump in here a sec.



I hope this doesn't come across as argumentative. But its my impression that you don't really want to kill yourself. Suicide is a selfish act. People who attempt or follow through are so caught up in themselves, their misery, they can't see or think about how it will affect those that love and need them. You are SO not selfish. You're constantly putting your daughter and H above yourself.

I think its like what eo said. You want to vanish. You want to crawl in a hole or get deserted on an uninhabited island. Those are two examples of ways I used to wish I could vanish. I used to have those thoughts when I was in the car, too. I didn't really want to die. I felt trapped and death seemed like the only acceptable escape hatch. It took me awhile to realize the reason that seemed like the only way, was because what I wanted to escape was myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I hope you will discuss it honestly with your IC, so she can help you with it. I may be filtering all of this, but I remember that my guilt was HUGE because of those thoughts, which increased my trapped feelings. I hemmed myself in.

I don't know if this makes sense. But if it does, then maybe its worth some thought?

(((((cp)))))

Tama

Always welcome, Tama! You're absolutely right, I don't really want to and don't actively think about it, I just want some peace. Like I told IC, I'm just so dreadfully tired. Tired of always being on guard and sad and 'on' for everyone else. I just want a break.

But MrCat wants nothing else except to spend every free minute with me and D17. I changed jobs 2 years ago, and took a few days off before starting the new job, and reserved 2 nights at our local time share, so I could just go and be by myself for once. I spend one night there alone - in utter heaven - and guess who shows up, to 'keep me company'? Even after I told them I wanted time off.

Honestly, I'm kind of worried if I tell her the extent of it, she may contact someone, KWIM? Like try to get me to go to a hospital or something. And I don't want that, for many reasons, though I suspect it might be the only wakeup call my H would hear.

I was scared going home last night, that he would be upset when I got home from IC, because his insecurity makes him worry that I'm fixing myself and won't want him any more, but he usually reacts to that by getting mad at me. This time, he was actually in a good mood. So maybe he's learning, too.

Honestly he's a great person, but his insecurity makes him want to protect himself against any criticism. I just need to figure out how to talk to him without pushing that button. As always, that's my problem.

I wonder if his insecurity is behind his need to be with you every waking moment? It sounds pretty serious, if he showed up on your alone-time time at the time-share even after you said you needed the alone time.

Is he still going to see the IC also?

Jayne, I'd want to be around cat all the time, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Especially if she was going to a time-share! Maybe he just doesn't use his empathy to understand how serious her need to be alone is?

Tama, are you here? Doesn't your H behave like that, too? Mistakenly dismissing what you ask for? How have you solved this?

cp


I can relate to that fear. But since she's trained to see and understand these things and I'm not, and I get that you're not really a danger to yourself, I think she'll get it too. Ya know?

I think if you explain the way you did here:



Maybe she can help you find ways to get the break you need so badly. I agree with you, you HAVE to get that break, but not just one. I think it would benefit you to have a set weekly break. But cart/horse.....first things first. Explain this to your conuselor. You know, you don't have to share every "dark" thought with her, in order for her to understand how hemmed in you feel and help you get the breaks you need. I think journaling those dark thoughts would be good, to get them out so you can examine them and find perspective.

I see hope for you. Another filer, but IMO its HUGE that you're able to open up here about those thoughts, which is another indicator that its not about suicide for you - IMO. I see that willingness as your inner desire to work through and find relief from, those thoughts. This is a good thing!

You're making great progress, cp. I'm so happy and proud for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Tama

Cat, I see great steps forward for you in these latest posts. To allow anyone to see your feelings as it happened in IC was big. You said you usually want to be invisible and it's clear that you're taking advantage of your time with IC and that's very good. Allowing her to see you cry was great, IMO. You open up to us here, but we can't see you. Even that has been a great release for you, though, it seems.

The example you gave of D17 asking how your day had been really struck me. I have a tendancy to think the worst possible motivation or option, too, and this one is hard to stop, but you've got to do that to move forward. There are tons of reasons D17 could have asked you how your day was and even if it was because she's been worried about you that's actually a good thing, too. It's a chance to talk more to her about what's going on and make sure she sees that you're being proactive and that she doesn't have to take on the responsibility of taking care of you. It's easy to make the connection between what happened in your teen years to what's going on now, but you can stop that before it starts if that is in fact what's in D17's mind.

Also, D17 can be worried about you and it be okay. If so, you've taught her to care about the people in her life. It's an opportunity to teach her how to care for people without having to be responsible for them.

The way you've made subtle changes in how you behave in situations where you'd normally have given in is working very well it sounds like. Before long you'll be able to make bigger changes because your gaining lots of confidence as time goes on.

My H was distant and detached last Saturday for most of the day. In the past I would have prodded and asked all day long what was wrong and what I'd done wrong. I didn't ask a thing all day about why he was silent and moody. I did my stuff and acted like I didn't notice his mood at all. If he didn't answer me, I just kept going. Finally he snapped out of it. My situation is way different than yours, but I did find that when I made a conscious choice to ignore his bad mood, my mood didn't get dragged down with his. I was very uncomfortable with the general atmosphere around the house that day, but I sucked it up because I'd had enough of taking responsibility for his feelings. You're getting there, too, though you're working toward a different goal than I am.

I'm here, eo **wave**




Though I no longer think of it as dismissive, there are times when I ask R for something and it doesn't happen.

Its a work in progress. Part of it is my communication. What I've started doing is asking R "I asked for X and it hasn't happened. did you understand what I asked for?" Many times his response lets me know I wasn't clear enough in my request and he misunderstood exactly what I wanted.

I've realized that sometimes even when I'm clear in how I state something, it has a different meaning for him than it does for me.

Like in the example cp gave with telling her H she needed alone time. I could very easily imagine R showing up with the girls if I'd told them I wanted to get away for a couple days. I think he would have interpreted that I meant I wanted to get away from the daily grind, never imagining I might need a break from them. I think he would have considered the first day my "alone time" and would've thought showing up with the girls as a surprise for me. I think he would have thought of it as adding TO my "vacation", not intruding on my alone time.

But I think if I explained I needed time completely alone, without even him or the girls there, as long as I didn't make it sound like it was because of something I was upset or angry with him or the girls about, he would give me the space I need.

R thinks in black and white. I'm learning I have to be almost simplistic in how I explain things, not because he's not intelligent enough to understand, but because it doesn't mean the same thing to him. The simplest explanations are the easiest to accomplish mutual meaning and understanding.

I wonder if you might need to check your communication with your H, too, cp? Maybe you're H is not understanding your meaning, either.

Tama

I hear ya! Me too!

Another thought that crossed my mind... if it was Mr.Cat who was posting here instead of cat, and Mr.Cat told us his wife was going to a time-share for some "alone-time", wouldn't we encourage him to "surprise her" by showing up? Meaning, to make sure she wasn't meeting an OP? Could this have been going through Mr.Cat's mind?

*We* know that she wasn't... which just goes to show, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, I thought that, at the time. In fact, I enouraged that very thing to a poster yesterday whose wife is going on a kayak trip for a week with a bunch of single men.

I'd never gone out on my own before, not in 30 years of marriage. So it probably freaked him out. Or it may just have been him scared of me showing any independence.

Just want to say, thanks, y'all, for helping me. It means a lot.

Catperson, I didn't get the time to read through all of the posts on this thread, but I read enough to get a good impression of what is going on.
First, I wonder if you have ever heard of avoidant personality disorder? One of my counselors in college told me he didn't think I had a full blown case of it, but that I had a lot of the same qualities.
You sound like how I used to be, and I know the ****** that it is. I think that it is very important for you to get on ADs first of all, hopefully something that addresses anxiety AND depression if possible.
You sound like you have a lot of anxiety, and your solution to alleviate it is to avoid situations and people that cause your anxiety. Then the more you avoid it, the more it reinforces your strategy, and you start avoiding more and more things until you're stuck.
That is how I used to be. I think you sound like you are somewhat socially phobic too. I used to feel like everyone who I ran into was judging me, thinking horrible things about me, thinking I was ugly or dorky or I shouldn't be there, that they could knew I was anxious and feeling bad about myself.

You know what I realized through years of therapy, work, and antidepressants? I am not that important. Sounds funny, but it's true. I am not that important that strangers spend time thinking about my faults, that I am the focus of everyone everywhere I go like I used to think I was.

You've been raised to believe that you are a piece of crap because you exist. You exist, therefore you are a piece of crap is what you've been conditioned to believed. The opposite is indeed true. You exist, therefore you are beautiful, wonderful, perfect because of your faults and your humanity and your uniqueness.

I know that you can't see it right now, but you are on the right path. I think it's important for you to realize that all of these thoughts and beliefs about yourself and other people are just thoughts. Thoughts and beliefs come and go, they are learned and can be unlearned.

Do you have any spiritual beliefs or religious beliefs at all? Sometimes they can help, sometimes the religion we've been raised in just makes us feel like there truly is something inherently wrong with us and fills us with shame.

I also think that you are on the right track, that you need to work on your own stuff first before you can get to the point where you are able to confidently confront your H about the things you need him to do. That is just my opinoin.

I think there are other things you can do that don't involve confronting him, like eliminating LBs and that kind of thing.

As far as your H and your daughter go, do you think that they might be ADHD? I know you've said that my H reminds you of yours, and I think that a lot of the messiness, stubborness, getting stuck in things and refusing to change, the mental disorganization sounds so familiar. It makes me wonder.

Also when you were talking about your H digging a fake river in the backyard, I just had to laugh. My H has done similar things. When we first bought the house four years ago he had a ton of unrealistic and bizarre ideas for what he wanted to do back there, and a pond was one of them. I had to put my foot down on that.

He obsessed for a few years on making raised garden beds, and it drove me nuts. He would insist that he was doing this for us and acted like I should help him, or like I should be grateful but really it's his hobby, not mine.

Your H sounds like he has major abandonment issues, and with good reason. When you want to go somewhere without him, I really don't think he's being a jerk about it because he doesn't want you to have fun. (Although maybe that is the case, I don't know.)
I really think that he is truly afraid that you are not going to come back. A lot of people have those fears and they haven't gone through half of what your H has been through.

The other thing I learned in IC the other day is that sometimes people (men especially) are more comfortable with anger than fear, so they learn to react with anger when they are afraid. The same thing used to happen after our daughter was born and I would want to go somewhere without them.

Looking back I see that he was terrified of being alone with her, he had no clue what to do, and maybe he was afraid that I wouldn't come back too. But instead of telling me that, he chose to turn his fear into anger. Maybe it was something like "I don't want to be afraid but you're doing something that is making me afraid, so I'm mad at you."

I know someone who's father died when he was a child and he can't stand it when his wife goes somewhere. If she goes on a trip to visit family, he's a wreck. If something goes wrong while she's gone, he is even more of a wreck.

I don't know what to tell you about your H's reactions to that because it sets me off when my H does that. People used to tell me "just ignore him and go" but I just didn't want to leave my baby D alone with someone who was SO angry.

I don't know if you'd be comfortable with it, but maybe when you tell him you're going somewhere, tell him exactly what it is, when you'll be back. Do you have a cell phone? If not you could tell him that if it makes him more comfortable you'll call him and check in halfway through your trip.
I know it's silly but maybe that would help him to feel more secure, and it would be a way of telling him "I know that you feel anxious when I'm gone" without really having to tell him.

I'm sorry you're having to go through all of this, I wish that your H would get into IC too, sounds like he could use it.

Thanks berkana. H definitely has ADHD, and it drives me nuts. Add his depression from all the things that have happened to us, and I'm surprised he's functioning. He takes D17 to school every morning, that's his way of bonding with her - he's been doing that since she was 5 - but the last 6 months or so have been horrible. He'll dress, go in the kitchen, stop and look through mail. While D17 is standing there waiting. He'll pick up keys and head out the door. He'll get to the car, then turn around and go back in and get his computer. Then he may stop at the mail again, and start going through it again. Or he'll go in the pantry and look for something to drink. And start to leave. Then he'll come back and get his vitamins. And leave. And realize he doesn't have his shoes on and go back in to get them. D17 is actually spending her counseling time with IC on finding ways to get past this so she's not late half the time.

I'll look up the avoidant personality thing. I'd never heard of it. But it fits. I meant to ask IC last night to find me a doctor, but the hour went so cockeyed because of the crying and stuff, we never got there. But she's got me coming back next Tuesday, so I'll do it then. I do have a lot of wellbutrin left over from last time I weaned myself off the meds, and I started taking them Tuesday, just so I'll have a little energy.

I've been asking him for 3 days to tell me when his 3 business trips are so I can see if one of them falls during D's spring break, cos I'm trying to book a vacation with the time share, and I wanted to know if he'd be here; he sent me the itinerary for one, but not the other two (and the one he sent, to Hong Kong, just happens to fall on our anniversary, of course). Anyway, I decided this morning that if he isn't going to let me know, I'll just book the trip anyway; it's not like we can change D's school's spring break. If he's around he can go; if not, we'll go without him. (which is what D would prefer anyway)

I would suggest when you talk to a doctor, that you are sure to mention that you have anxiety too. A lot of times they get stuck on the depression and don't even ask about anxiety, but there are meds like paxil that help with both. That's what I'm on.

My H drives me crazy with planning things too. That's something we started to address in MC. If I were you, I'd just plan it. I can ask him over and over to bring something home like a paystub or to get his insurance card or something and he gets the wrong thing or keeps forgetting until I finally get so upset I make it such a huge deal that he can't forget.

I hate to be that way, I don't want to play that role and I hope that you are able to find some way to figure out how to deal with his ADHD. Let me know if you learn anything!

I don't mean to make this about me and my problems, just trying to let you know you're not the only one.

Here's the wikipedia page on Avoidant PD. I think medication can help a lot with it. What helped me too was setting specific goals, like raising my hand in class and saying something, or asking someone to do something with me, or putting myself in a situation I would feel anxious in.
As I took those steps I slowly started to see that even though I felt anxious, it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, and sometimes it was fun. The world didn't end just because I said something in class that was kind of off or wasn't perfect.
It is like getting over any phobia really, you have to expose yourself to the fearful situation little by little in tiny steps until your nervous system learns that it's really ok and there's not a reason to be afraid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_personality_disorder

Oh Cat, I can feel for your poor daughter trying to get out the door each morning with that sort of performance going on!

My ex-husband had ADHD also (runs in his family). Prior to marrying him I hadn't been the most organized person, but I grew heaps of ability during that time trying to deal with the mess that he caused. He also was very clingy and it drove me around the bend. He was also domineering and bossy, but in a subtle way, that also drove me a bit mad. ;(

I wonder if people with ADHD feel a need to control others because they feel that they can't control themselves?

Regarding needing some time alone, since your dh doesn't seem to see your need for it, how about taking some sick days off of work and just staying home, or going for walks in the park or something. I do that at times and call it a "Mental Health Day". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Time alone is a real, actual need, and be sure and tell youself that you deserve it. I consider myself lucky that my dh and I travel for a few days on business every couple of months. It gives us a couple of days apart, and works wonders for our relationship.

WebfootGirl, you're right on the money. Every time MrCat goes out of town, I take a sick day. Mental health day, lol.

Hey I am glad to know that others also take "mental" health days as well. I think I work when I am physically ill... just kinda suck it up and go...

BUT,

If I am really having a difficult time with something emotionally... I have taken days for this or on occasion I will just need a "me" day... some alone time.

I have a hard time when I don't get enough down time... or alone time. It isn't that I don't enjoy being around other people... cause I do.

I took that ennegram test last weekend, and when I stated that I wasn't sure if I was introverted or extroverted... someone else posted that part of determining that is how we recharge our batteries. Some people derive energy from being around other people. I think because in teaching there is rarely a moment alone during the school day...(well thank goodness we at least have single restrooms, we have some that are multiples, but for crying out loud... if I couldn't even go to the bathroom alone at work I dunno...) so I need dowm time, quiet time, after work or I feel more stressed. I think the quiet part is probably as important as the alone part. I am okay with down time with others as long as the time is quiet... where there does not need to be a lot of engaging.

I don't need a ton of time... an hour and I am good. Fortunately, my DH (also a teacher so he wants quiet and space) and the kids (after spending all day with others) like to have some down time of their own as well. I am really grateful that each member of the family respects this need and that since we do spend a lot of time together as a family, that I have less guilt than I used too about it...

but I used to spend a lot more time alone, and that was more about withdrawal... which wasn't healthy for me. I am learning to balance an appropriate amount of down/alone time without it leading into withdrawal. I think withdrawal was a coping skill for me for a lot of years.

Well I really just stopped in to share that I was grateful to know others take mental health days... hadn't intended to write all this. Hmmm...

Jilly

So here's a typical evening for me. I get home and instead of going to bed like I'd like, D17 and I clean house, rearrange furniture; then we study for her upcoming ACT until MrCat gets home, when I stop and make dinner. Then I sit down and research and take care of a PTA issue MrCat is responsible for but won't take care of and they keep calling me and asking me to get him to do it; so I just take care of it tonight because I ask him to do it and he just ignores me.

So we're watching the DVR of tonight's Lost as I work on it, and he falls asleep 20 minutes in; I keep watching it, and finish taking care of his PTA stuff. Lost is over, I'm watching HGTV; I get up to go to the bathroom which wakes him up and I come back and he's awake and going to the HBO channels. He knows I was watching HGTV, because it's the only channel I like to watch. I fume a little bit that he didn't even ask about changing the channel. So I unfortunately say "Yeah, I guess I was done watching that show."

Well, you would have thought I'd said he was the son of a wild pig or something. He harrumphs, turns his back to me, moves as far away from me on the bed as possible, and starts twitching his foot - his signal that he's pissed. So I calmly say "You know what? I could have said that a little less rudely. I'm sorry." Nothing. More twitching. I say what did I do that you're upset about? Nothing. If you would tell me, I could make sure I don't do it again. Nothing. I'd really like to talk about this so I'll know what I say that triggers you to get angry. Nothing. More tapping of the foot. See, I'm trying to use what I've learned here and coax out some dialogue for a change, LBs, ENs, whatever I can get. Nothing.

So finally I realize that what he's waiting for is our old dance, for me to come over to him, cuddle up, and start giving him SF, as an 'apology' for upsetting him. I debate with myself; this is a good time to try a boundary.

And I can't. I just can't. I don't have any practice doing the 'good' stuff, the 'right' way, and I just can't face the idea of spending a whole night with his anger, because the way this works is that if I don't play our 'dance,' the tension and anger builds up and he pulls out every mean thing he has in his arsenal for the last 30 years, he slams things around, he cleans! - LOL, I get scared of him when he cleans! - until I'm ready to just run out of the house and wander the streets for a few hours. (The last time I did that, a couple years ago, I took a knife with me and really wrestled with whether to just go out into the woods and not come back; but I didn't; he tracked me down and I went home.) And after the last couple of days, I just can't handle that.

So I cave, scoot over, and do what I know he's waiting for. Get it over with, I get up, check on D17, and go into the kitchen and start doing dishes and some laundry. He comes in, of course apologetic now, now that he's had his stupid orgasm. He won't speak it, the apology, of course, he never does. He just stands there, supposedly to let me know he's sorry and that he'd like me to come back to bed. Finally gives up and goes to bed.

So I'm on my third glass of wine, playing a game on pogo and journaling. Thanks for letting me have a place to do that.

Wow cat... so many thoughts are going through my head...

First off, from the very beginning of your post I was thinking "Where does she get all that energy???" I don't think I could do all of that, every day, day in and day out. Maybe one or two days, but then H would have to cook dinner or order pizza... You're incredible!

I'm gonna submit this in case you're still logged on, hoping for a reply before you go to sleep...

Ok, I also want to say I admire your restraint. You only made one comment that was in poor judgement, and you recognized it and apologized immediately. It's too bad he didn't respond accordingly, but good for you for doing your best on your part.

I hear that you gave in to his "change back" behavior because you were not prepared to stand up to it... too tired? Too stressed? It was your choice, you weighed the cost and decided it wasn't worth it. That's valid.

Is there something you can do to mentally prepare yourself for the next time? You got to the point where you considered not backing down- that's an improvement, right? A few more times like that, and soon you may decide your boundaries are worth the cost.

Was there a time when you stuck to your boundaries, with a good outcome? I thought there was.

What do you think about some H&O with him tomorrow? About what you were annoyed about in the first place; how you felt when he didn't acknowledge your "request" (admitting that it wasn't a Thoughtful Request); how you felt when you apologized and he didn't respond; and how you felt after accommodating him.

Thanks Jayne. You're right; at least I considered not backing down; that's an improvement. I didn't talk to him this morning, but if he calls, I might try to say something. That really is my main goal, the one I keep going back to - just saying what I'm feeling/thinking. Just so he's aware my side of the equation isn't as rosy as his. I was running a conversation through my head, but I'm just too raw this week to do it.

Cat, LA talked to me about the unreasonable expectations that I had of myself late at night, to be able to talk about issues at that time. What about finding forgiveness for yourself for your half of last night, for doing something against your code. And then like before, practice acting to your code in the daytime when you feel more in control of yourself.

What can you do when he's angry and you're not okay with that? What about sleeping in another room? Over time, you will get used to not trying to "fix him" when he's angry. Separate and equal.

There might be something to that, about avoiding conflict at night. I definitely feel stronger in the morning. If I hadn't been such a total bundle of nerves this week for some reason, I might have tried a drive-by this morning as I left. I'll try to hold myself to that the next time.

I've always been afraid to take such a big stand as sleeping in another room, because the couple times I've tried it, he follows me in there and harasses me until I relent and come back to our room. Maybe now that I'm older, I can feel strong enough to do it.

"and he pulls out every mean thing he has in his arsenal for the last 30 years"

Cat, this isn't acceptable, it's abuse. I am telling what I do not to give advice, but to validate what you said about this being unacceptable. I live in a pretty safe neighborhood, and if was earlier, I go for a walk, but if the kids are already in bed, then I go drive to the neighborhood pool, put my driver's seat back, and lay down. I have friends who are up late that I know I could call from my cell if I needed to talk through something. I'm not ready yet to call someone late, because I wouldn't like to bother them, but I feel less alone knowing that I can call when I need to.

I have my Alanon One Day at a Time book in there, that has an index on different things I might wat to refer to, like loving detachment, Let Go and Let God, Easy Does It, How Important Is It. And I listen to Inspirational music if it's still on, and if it's not, I sing to myself. Now that I learned breathing exercises in IC, I could add that, too.

And I pray, I pray for help turning my will and my life over to Him. I pray for faith that he has a plan for me, and pray to know it so I can follow it. I think of the scripture, I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

Cat, you describing the episodes helps me realize I'm not alone in needing these what I consider extraordinary precautions. We had a dance that restored order in my house, too. What calmed my H down is my AO, then he knew that he was in control again. Because people in the driver's seat don't have the AOs, the passengers do.

Like Al Turtle's article suggests, I give it at least 20 minutes before I go back, but he also says that sometimes people need overnight to reset.

Cat, what would be a good plan for you when he taps his foot? That part is not acceptable behavior. Can you accept that he does disapprove of you sometimes? Not that he "should" do that, but we're human, and we make mistakes in a marriage. Tapping a foot and being uncomfortable are not fatal blunders, right? Okay, you were not ready to share your O&H, last night, that wasn't a fatal blunder either, right?

Think of the advice to KLD, to just be calm and listen. The advice to Wonderin, that just because someone wants something doesn't make it her job to give it to him. Do you think that would have helped last night? Do you think that you've made enough changes in your relationship yet to where you could turn over, go to sleep, and know that like Hold says, "You Can Handle It"

I don't know what a good plan looks like. I've tried rolling over, I've tried leaving the room; it makes him madder, because he doesn't get his resolution, and he blows up. I just need to be honest from now on. I keep saying I'm going to.

CP, your post made me cry, literally. I think our H's might have been separated at birth.
I'm not sure that I'm the one to be giving you advice considering that our situations are so similar, but maybe that is a good reason for me to give you advice. Take this for what it's worth.
I got to the point with my H a long time ago where I just do not care if he blows up. I mean I am not going to change my behavior to avoid a blow up from him. If he wants to do that, that's his option. I am not responsible for his moods, thoughts, or emotions or behavior.

The fact that you feel like you have to have sex with him to keep him from blowing up really upsets me. IMO, you shouldn't have to do that.

In the past, I didn't have sex with H but I would have to fawn all over him, hug him, cuddle, and massage him to get him to calm down. And after we had D, I just didn't have the energy to do that anymore. I could be wrong here and going against MB principles, but I think that if someone gets that angry about every little thing, won't talk about it or admit that they're angry, you have the absolute right to remove yourself from the situation.

I think that it's ok for you to say (if you can do it) "My impression is that you are angry with me. I don't feel comfortable being around you when you are angry and won't discuss it with me. I need time to myself, so I'm going in the other room. When you are ready to talk calmly, please let me know."

It's not acceptable for him to follow you into the other room. Do you have locks on your doors? Maybe you need to get one.

I hate to tell you to do something that might escalate his abusiveness, but at the same time, I hate to see you pandering to him because you're afraid of him.

My H used to do the exact same things, get mad about something trivial, then refuse to talk about it, act like a child, sigh, huff, roll over, and start twitching. Or he'd clean. God I know what you mean about the cleaning. I got so sick of it in the last couple of years I started to think to myself "well maybe I should start fights just so the house will get cleaned."
I have no idea why they do it, it's like they're trying to say "see, I do things around the house, you can't be mad at me."

You're doing so well, making small changes and learning new things. I know it is SO difficult with what you've been through in your life and how he reacts to you. You have a lot of strength and courage.

I meant to say, the foot tapping part is not UNacceptable behavior, but I think you got that.

I practice saying things in the car. Would would your O&H be?

Oh, cat! I remember how you asked me to talk to my H at a calm time!

You are so good at helping me with phrasing. How does this sound? "I love you too much and our marriage is too important to me to continue to do things that I am not happy about with you. I know that people get ticked and tap their feet, but I have to tell you that today, it makes me very uncomfortable. If it happens at bedtime, like it did last night, I am going to roll over and try to sleep, but it is hard because I'm not used to this, and I have a lot of fear. I am working on that. I am asking you once to let me be, and if you have something to say to me, the next morning we can plan to decide when we want to have that talk. One day, we can talk whenever it comes up, but I ask you to respect where I am today. Today, there is a lot of fear for me in this, and I am working on that in IC."

Then, in another conversation it's too much at once "If you have any criticism of me without planning with me first when to talk about it, I am going into another room. Because my discomfort is so great, that I have to ask you not to just spring it on me. If you follow me to the other room, I will consider that not respecting my pace, and to stand up for the love that I have for you, I am leaving the house for the evening. I have a lot of fear right now, but if we can address these things slowly and respectfully, I am confident that we can find solutions that we are both enthusiastic about."

How would you say somehting like that?

Berkana, thanks for sharing that! I wish you were here when I was going through my trial and error. But I'm glad that your're here today!

Thank you. Like I said, I don't know if I'm the expert on this because it seems like in the past few years I've just been making H escalate. I really think I should have told him I wanted a separation a lot sooner but I was too scared.

{{berkana}} Your post made ME cry, lol! I had to shut my office door. Your words have helped very much, probably because we're so similar. I can see myself telling him I'm leaving the room. Plain, easy to say, break the cycle. I'm not very good at speeches and I'm so out of practice of talking to him about anything except him and his work, I think I'm rusty, lol. Anyway, I hope to remember that the next time it happens. Thank you.

Thanks ears. Like I said to berkana, I'm lousy with talking, have been all my life. If/when I say something, it's going to have to be short and sweet, before I pass out.

Will have to think on it. Maybe he'll help me out by calling me today and asking me how I am, and I can just be honest. He does that sometimes, calls me afterward, trying to be nice.

And on top of all this crap, and such an unusually emotional week, I was in my D17's email account looking for something for tomorrow's ACT test, and found a few dozen emails to a male friend of hers who moved to another state, who got a girl there pregnant and now these 16 year olds are raising their baby together. D17 has been saying he's her best friend now, and I've been getting a little worried. So these emails have attachments, so I open one. Lo and behold, she's sending him pictures of her...in various stages of undress, all the way to all undressed. And sent one to some other email I never heard of. And had a conversation with a guy in England...telling him not to call her any more (!) and she has to go back to college! (my high school junior!)

*sigh* I really don't need this right now.

I'm sorry to hear about your daughter. I saw the same problem in the Ann Landers column yesterday. I guess it's a new trend. What about only having internet access on one computer, in the family room?

Maybe it would help your daughter to do a research project on child predators. It is probably a subject that she'd find very interesting. Once she learns about the grooming process, she will be able to recognize it and see it as the sickness as it is, that it is not about her and how pretty she is and the signals that she's told that she's unknowingly been sending. I remember when I read, The Courage To Heal, it's like my eyes were opened. Knowledge is power.

What do you think about talking to her Health teacher about leading a group discussion in class about this, the signs and the tactics to look for? I wish I'd had this information when I needed it.

I would also suggest talking to her counselor. Do you have the same counselor?
I am not an expert but in my opinoin I wouldn't say anything about it. She's just going to shut you out unless you two have a very close relationship and she can trust you to talk about these things.
I would be losing if it I were you. I would honestly rather know my 17 y.o was having sex with someone they knew and loved than putting pictures of herself naked online.

What worries me is that all it takes is for that guy to forward one of those pictures to someone else, and then who knows where they will go. I don't know how I would broach that subject with her.

Maybe you need to keep control of the camera. I think it's normal at her age to be experimenting sexually but at the same time, she's doing it in a dangerous way.

Have you guys had the birth control talk at all? I would say if she's doing these things it's a matter of time before she is having sex. I don't know what I'm going to do when it's time for my dd to go through this stuff, I'm going to be a basketcase.

Good luck. I also hope that your H doesn't find out. I know that's probably against MB concepts, but I just think he's going to make it worse if he finds out. If there's anything you can do to keep him from finding emails like that....

Now that I think about it, maybe you should talk to her. What if she decides to do this again and forgets to remove the files from the camera or the computer and your H finds them?

Anyway I'm not trying to worry you even more but spare you and dd more pain.

Good luck. I think also if I were you I'd take her to the OB/GYN. I think they're supposed to start going around 17 or 18 anyway and it'll open the door for her to get some information and have neutral people to talk to. Unless you don't want her to have neutral people to talk to and you're morally against all of this.

I'm sorry.

We do have a very close relationship. She tells all her friends that I'm her best friend.

So...we talked. First I brought out her printed out grades showing she's failing English, Math, and Chemistry; in tears over that, blah blah blah. She keeps looking at the other stack of papers, not knowing what they are. I ask her what her relationship is with C, the boy up north. blah blah blah. Cos it seems like he decided he couldn't hack it living with his girlfriend (mother of his child) at about the same time that your emails and calls ramped up. No, it's just kind of a pretend thing, but I'll never have sex in high school, if that's what you're worried about (she always tells any guy she dates she won't have sex until she's out of high school; too many plans). So I said speaking of morals, and turned over the papers with all the pictures. It was just this one thing, I swear! I said, it went on for over 3 weeks, with the pictures progressively more naked! She says he was telling her she was attractive, the way boys around here don't do. Nobody ever asks her out (and she's really pretty and popular), but all her friends are getting asked out by multiple guys.

Bottom line, tons of crying. No more computer, no more cell phone in the bedroom, grounded, has to tell C she can't talk to him any more. She has to call him with me in the room, and I told her to tell him personally, for me, that I'll be monitoring everything I can get my hands on, and if I find that one single picture of her leaks out anywhere, I will personally fly up there, buy a shotgun, and hunt him down.

I'll look at things in a month, to see how I feel. I told her I had to be present when she tells him; see, I'm applying MB rules here, because I consider this somewhat of an affair - her friend C is/was living with his girlfriend and her mother, raising their baby together. Now he's not, most likely because he's getting all this attention from D17.

I also asked her what else she's done. She was kind of like a WS - now that it's out in the open, she was willing to tell me the truth about everything; or so she says. Hated hearing about the second base (in the pants) stuff that she admitted to. *sigh* I told her it will take a long time before I ever trust her again. She had to wipe her computer clean, can't touch it unless I'm in the room. Good idea about the camera; thanks. Oh, and no more shut door; she already knows no locked door, but no shut door for the rest of the month.

She begged me not to tell H; asked me 3 or 4 times if I was going to. I have no intention to, but she doesn't need to hear that. I said it depends on whether she gains my trust back.

Good lesson, I think, in how once she got a laptop, she became addicted to the Internet. She agreed. I told her grounded until all her grades are back to Bs. Reading a book every night (she needs to finish Roots, which she borrowed from my mom 6 months ago). Bringing home all textbooks and studying 30-60 minutes each day until the grades are up. NO contact with C. She tried to deflect it as she was going to bed, by saying at least she's not into drugs or anything. I calmly said no, but you now have naked pictures of you on the Internet. For anyone to find. Think about it.

She goes to a C, the same one I do, so this will be our next topic. That any why she feels a need to get friends this way, when she's so pretty and popular.

I need a drink.

Thanks, everyone.

Cat, I feel so bad for your last experience. I can't imagine having sex with my H just to keep him from being more ugly to me. You owe yourself so much more than that. Sex is a special thing in a M and it's gotten to the point that it's not that way for you. I so hate that for you.

I know you're going to find the right way for you to approach him. You're making great strides towards getting to the place you want to be. Just because you feel you had a set back last night isn't the end of the world. Just pick yourself up and get back on track. I'm very proud of you and inspired!

Oh cat - I didn't read the stuff about your D before I posted. I don't have kids so I can't begin to understand or give advice on this. I think you were so right to talk to her and be strict with the consequences. Now you have to make sure you stick to it for the whole time (this is the only advice I know for sure!!!)

I'm so glad you found out about this so you could deal with it.

Enjoy that drink!! I just took an ambien, so I'll be good in about 30 minutes!

Wow catperson, just wow. That's so amazing that you were able to be so open and honest and not judgemental but just realistic. She's so lucky to have a mom like you.
I love the part about driving up there with a shotgun. I'm the same way, I would say that too.
I'm just so impressed, you handled it so well. I might just save this somewhere so I can read it 14 years from now. ha.
Kudos to you.

Cat, you sure know how to speak up when it comes to your daughter <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm glad that she has such a strong momma bear.

Oh Cat,

I hear you about the typical evening stuff... I don't do all the cooking anymore, or all the housework either... but I used to do about 90% of the indoor household stuff, cooking, cleaning, laundry, bill-paying, homework helping, and on and on the list goes.

Even now, with a lot more help from DH, my typical day is still pretty loaded... I do take my alone time after work most days, because I don't think I could get any more stuff done if I didn't. Sometimes though I find myself saying... if I sit down I will not get up... so best just to not sit down. And right now, the house is a mess, I am behind on the laundry, I have paperwork from meetings I need to get done, papers to check, there is it seems always stuff TO DO. I am an eternal list maker. Then I have guilt too about not getting everything on my list done, as it seems I used to be able to get it all done. I am having a sort of a mild panic attack about it right now as I post this.

I am really fighting for 90 degrees, a healthy sized plate... to stop living in extremes. I used to be OCD almost about my house. I sure liked having a spotless house, but there were others areas of my life that were less attended to then. Then I when I hit crisis mode 19 months ago, I virtually was unable to do much of anything. I am naturally thin, and lost 27 pounds. I hit below the 100lb. mark and people thought that I was sick. I was sick... not well, emotionally overwhelmed, and the house was a mess most of the time. I was tired most of the time. I couldn't stand the mess.

Then we did the dumpster big clean and stuff started to become more manageable again. I have gained back 12 lbs. and I no longer look sick. But I know I am still struggling for balance... to be healthy... 90 degrees. Not a spotless house, but not a pigsty either.

I have sleep issues as well. I either undersleep...(average 5 hours a day) or oversleep... like catch up sleep (12-16 hours sometimes... or I'll go to sleep early Friday night like 7 or 8pm and then sleep 12-14 hours get up for a few hours, do a few things, and then take a nap which winds up really more like just sleeping the rest of Saturday, through Saturday night sometimes, and the I go into overdrive on Sunday to make up for all the stuff I didn't accomplish because I slept so much on Saturday.) I don't get why it is easier for me to fall asleep earlier on the weekends, when I don't have to get up early and have a hard time falling asleep on weeknights when I have to get up around 5am for work. I am out of balance with this. I like to fall asleep to the TV... I have been like this for a long time. Even though I know I fall asleep faster when I read.

(PS we watch Lost too... but I have them saved on TIVO, and have not watched any of the new season yet. It is one show DH and I both love to watch together.)

(DH just shared with me this... right now he said, " JJ, you really type fast. He said you aren't looking at the keyboard, and you edit as you go." Which was a total compliment since I have never taken a typing class, I feel like I am a slow typer, and I do believe that posting here has increased my typing skills so I am just sharing that hey who knew MB could also improve our clerical skills as well? Thanks MB!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

So when I read through the first part of your post I was feeling yeah, I get that same feeling of the typical day... I hear ya. And then I got to this part.

And I am reaching for the word to descibe my reaction... my feeling when I read this. I know I felt upset about it. I know I connected to it too... and those are different dance steps then we do... but I do recognize the smoothing over steps, the restoring peace steps... mine look maybe different but I definitely had a reaction to this part of your post.

I think part of it for me has to do with low self esteem... from way back... cause I sure didn't have any as a teenager and into my 20's. I had a warped self image... and I had sex that I didn't really want to have. I don't know if it because I thought so poorly of myself, and believed I had nothing else to offer, or if I had sex because I thought it was a way to get love... but I do know I compromised myself by having sex I did not really want to have. I was very disconnected from the sex itself. It was not a connecting experience for me. I believe that might have something to do with the SF issues I still have now. I am still working through some of the SF stuff and trying to get to the bottom of why I still have issues with it even now. I think I shared some of it on DrySpell's thread.

I think my connecting to what you wrote was about the dance steps, even when I believe I know another way, and then I just can't do what I believe... I violate myself, betray myself which ties into something that Ears posted to me about abandoning my own self on the villagers thread.

Why do we do this to ourselves? Why do we compromise our own beliefs? LA shared with me about the two baseline emotions fear or love. That most things can be traced down to acting from fear or acting from love. I think for those of us who are shame-based perhaps a lot of our choices and our beliefs trace back to fear. Fear if I don't... then I will be less than worthy of any love.

I can be going along doing pretty well, feeling stronger, building confidence, and then BAM... I smack right back into my past beliefs and old habits. Even when I know there is another way... why will I still reach back for an old step that I no longer need? Is is the whole three steps forward two steps back thing?

So I am wondering Cat, how you feel when you choose to have sex with DH when you don't want to... well at least my perception is that is what you are doing... is that correct? Do you feel like you compromise yourself or abandon yourself when you choose to go for the smoothing over?

I liked what Ears shared about the late night stuff when we are tired... like maybe at night or when we are really tired it just seems or feels easier to just cave and go for what we believe will smoooth it over, or soothe. I also was wondering if you had drilled into you the belief that married people should never go to bed angry at each other? I sure know I heard that one growing up. When I think about that belief now... I think that is a nice theory but I don't belive it is doable for me right now to have an expectation of either for myself or for my DH or even the kids that they will never go to bed angry. Seems to me like wishful thinking...

and wishful thinking is also something LA shared with me. She shared with me that when we are in wishful thinking mode that is a signal to know that we are in our child... because as children we couldn't control anything but we sure could wish for stuff. So I know I do try to pay attention to when I find myself in the whole I sure wish so and so would do such and such... or I sure wish I would.

She also shared with me about the word "should". I think I must have been at the time using the word should a lot in my posting. She told me we can should ourselves to death. I remember being in awe of that statement. So I know am also more aware of when I catch myself in should mode.

I know fear drives my unwillingness at times with my O&H's. Which then builds resentment, because it isn't like I don't know what I want to say... just that I still sometimes withhold from saying it. I know I have gotten better about this but I still have miles to go on that path.

Also there were the things that you shared about what you discovered in DD17's email and I felt a sense of unease about it too. I liked Ears suggestion about maybe limiting the internet access to the family room. Since DSS14 has a computer and internet access in his bedroom, I know I felt my own fear rise about online predators. DH is pretty consistent about monitoring what DSS is doing online. He has some kind of program that he uses that shows him a report card that tracks DSS's computer use.

Right now DD8's computer is also in the den with DH's computer and my computer and she is not allowed to go to any site where there is chatroom kind of access. The scary thing is that there are now these stuffed animals that when you buy them they have an internet site that kids can go to and those sites have chatrooms. We so far have vetoed her access to anything like that.

The online predator, grooming etc. really scares me a lot. I am glad for you that you did come across what you found so that you can at least talk to her about it... although I admit I have no idea how to broach the subject, and I hear you saying that you are concerned about the pictures and emails you found.

One of the things I did want to share with you is that I do see you as a strong and confident woman. Your posts read that way to me.

I believe that as we work through our shame-based core issues, it will truly help us redefine our own beliefs, let go of our old outgrown false beliefs, and work toward taking back our own power.

I know I too find comfort in my relationship with Christ. Like Ears, I am working on Letting Go and Letting God, and someone here posted (I think it was Neak but I am not positive) that during a time in her life when she was having difficulty praying, that she would listen to worship and praise music and she could connect to God that way. I was really grateful for her for sharing that...(and Neak on the off chance that it was you that said this and you are reading this, I wanted to tell you that I mentally thanked you for sharing that, and if you are reading this I am saying thank-you outloud to you right now for that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />because I have found that it does help me a lot when I feel stuck when I have a difficult time feeling connected through prayer.)

I also wanted to share that I didn't know this before, didn't understand that when I am talking to God in my head about stuff, that it is also prayer... not what I believed prayer looked like... believed prayer was more formal... my belief about that has changed greatly and for that I am really relieved.

Cat, if I haven't told you today that I really admire that you are willing after 30 years in your M to do this work now... not to just leave things status quo, let me shout it from the rooftop, I REALLY ADMIRE YOUR CHOICE to do this.

(((Cat))) you are brave.

I was also thinking about what you posted on villagers about your job now and your job with NASA. I want to talk with you a bit more about that, so in my next post to you on villagers if I forget to bring that up with you, please remind me about it okay?

Tomorrow's a new day and another chance to try to do it differently. I really do believe that the work we are all doing and the changes we are working on making can and do take time. Thank you so much for being on this earth and sharing this journey with all of us.

Jilly

Wow, some really awesome posts here...

I glossed over the SF part because it was quite upsetting to me. I'm glad others were able to comment on that. I don't know, reading it was almost like reading about someone being raped... cat, I hope it doesn't upset you that I said that. As you describe it, you didn't want it at all, you were coerced, emotionally forced, blackmailed. This, with the stuff ears pointed out, really sounds abusive.

Imagine someone else posting something like this. You give excellent advice; what would you tell them?

Jayney,

The SF part was upsetting to me as well. Why did you gloss over it? Would you be willing to go deeper here and share why you felt upset personally?

I triggered to rape but in a different way. Where my choice to have sex I didn't want to have was me abandoning me. I am not talking about someone physically forcing me to have sex against my will, although there may have been some sort of coersion to it... but more about my own choices to violate myself... to give in, to have sex when I didn't really want to and to try to get better clarity about my own choices about this, because I think my past choices do have some bearing on my current SF issues.

I didn't believe when I read this that Cat's H was forcing her to have SF, although I do believe he may very well have an expectation here about it as amends. I wondered if this is the dance step in their M or has been...

When Cat and Mr. Cat have a disagreement, or when Mr.Cat is angry at Cat, my perception is that Mr. Cat has had an expectation that this is how conflict is resolved. His expectation is that when Cat makes him angry, that her amends is to provide SF for him. This is where the smoothing over comes in. I believe Cat is aware of this dance step, and no longer wants to do this step. I think she bravely owns where she violates herself, when she states that she caved. Just because we gain better awareness of the steps, doesn't mean that we yet will be able to choose differently. 30 years is a long time of having an established pattern of steps that happen in conflict.

Cat's awareness of this may have been present for some time now, but I think her willingness and desire to really do the work to change her own steps is relatively new. Changing the steps can be really scary especially since we cannot predict for sure what the other person's reaction to our step change will be... and then when we change the step... and we don't know what to do, which may happen a lot in the beginning, we might find ourselves reaching back... for what we know, because we feel safer in knowing the outcome.

For me it is the letting go of the outcome piece that is so hard. I believe I have derived a false sense of security in the belief that if I can predict or believe I know what the outcome of my choices will be then I can protect myself.

I am finding that I need to own my own half of not making something safe. Where I have a need to own where I am making a choice to violate myself, and get to the bottom of what the payoff is for me in doing that.

I see Cat and Mr. Cat as equals in their M. I can see Cat's half and Mr. Cat's half. Cat has a choice to not cave into Mr. Cat's expectation for SF that is her half. Mr. Cat has to own that he has this expectation, and where this expectation is abusive to Cat. That is what I see. I believe Cat can see this as well. I perceive her as learning to own her half, her choices, and working toward how to let go of the outcome.

Learning how to take back our own power through our choices... rather than handing it over... I think that it is a lot easier said than done.

Jilly

I'm not sure it would be helpful for me to explore that on cat's thread- it may be more about me than her. If I'm projecting more into it because of how it would affect me, I would hate for the power of suggestion to make it that bad for cat... does that make sense?

I will post on my own thread. cat, please use care for yourself (ETA: I mean, if you think it would disturb you), and don't read that post... I will put a line at the top saying *spoiler warning for cat* just in case.

Maybe these are extreme precautions on this board. I hope no one thinks I'm being silly.

Jayney,

I respect your choice to explore or not and if and where you want to do it.

I don't think your post was power of suggestion either... I think you shared your honest feelings about how your reacted to Cat's post.

I think her post stirred up emotions in many of us. I think it is okay to say, I felt this way when you shared that.

And I admit that I get confused about where to do my sharing because I don't want to hijack someone's thread either... and I don't know when my own sharing is hijacking yet... still working on that one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Jilly

Hi all, just checking in to say I can't thank you enough for posting. Everything that everyone has said has been an immense help. I don't have time to work on it right now, will do so later. Just wanted you to know that things are going ok. MrCat worked a little on the house (reorganized the pantry) yesterday, and the biggest shocker - we were at Lowes buying stuff for the weedeater, and ran into a friend of ours; the man's having another baby and they were talking about working on the house, and MrCat admitted to this man that he hadn't done any work on the house in several years! That he had a ton of stuff to do! So maybe that bodes well for us. Of course, right now he's back on his computer, but at least he worked on the pantry last night. And I stepped up and commented several times (as he drug us around town on errands) how badly my feet were hurting from the plantar fasciitis, and he spent a good 3 or 4 minutes massaging my feet. So I'm hopeful.

Anyway, I'll be back later when I have time to sit down and respond to everything. And Jayne, please feel free to express yourself. I'm functionally a very strong person, I have a high pain threshhold, so if you think something you say would benefit me and help me get past this fear, I'd like to hear it. It can't be worse than what I tell myself, which was that I felt like a hooker. If MrCat had brought the subject up, that is what I would have told him (I think). Maybe I didn't do so well this time, but I was AWARE the whole time, a big break, so I think the next time I WILL be prepared to not repeat. Good stuff.

Cat,

I am glad you are back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Thank you for sharing this. You owned your stuff, your fear, your choice in that moment, and your desire to do it a different way next time.

I don't know of any other way to enact change... then to be aware of our choices, know them, and having the courage to work toward change.

I think you are doing great.

Jilly

Cat, that's all good!

I'm glad you are seeing some hope and progress with MrCat. Awesome that he worked on the pantry, and gave you a foot rub! I also agree that being aware this time was a big break, and you are getting stronger day by day.

I posted about my reaction on my thread, I'll let you decide whether or not to read it.

Cat, wow, I was telling myself that I was minsunderstanding because I'm so far on the outside your first post. Yet I was afraid to ask for clarification. That's about me, cat, the being afraid to ask. I am glad that you and jayne and jilly were brave enough to continue the discussion in that area, too. I guess it's a denial thing because I want to support your marriage, but I think we'd agree that coercive sex is a huge boundary violation. Is it a possibility that this is a misunderstanding, that he would be happy to make up in a different way instead? I guess not, or you wouldn't have felt like you described above, right? Have you all discussed this?

Cat, do you believe that your H is a man who would want to and would go ahead and have relations with you when you aren't enthusiastic about it? If you tell him that you're not willing to have SF after he's been angry, wouldn't that stop his attempts dead in their tracks?

Cat,

I had a thought about this.

The idea of "make-up" sex. I am wondering if Mr.Cat perceives what is happening as make-up sex? If Mr.Cat maybe thinks the sex is what would be considered the making up part. I wonder if you would feel more enthusiastic, if you were to be able to process the event first, share with Mr.Cat what you are upset about and have him share with you what he is upset about.

Rather than the SF itself being the make-up, the SF might follow after a period of sharing your feelings. I dunno, you still might not want to have SF then either and that would be okay too. I am just wondering if that would be a step closer to what you desire.

Thoughts?

Jilly

Yeah. She’ll be 18 in 6 months. I’m 99.9% positive she hasn’t had intercourse because it’s a very open subject with us, and I’ve been watching her carefully to gauge if her attitude or mannerisms change, for the last few years. She was very open Friday about what else she has done. LOL, I approached it like a BS spouse, and it worked! She fessed up to everything, told me how far she’d gone with anyone; asked her what she had done to them (last 2 boyfriends) and she exclaims Nothing! It’s gross to even think about touching that, and there’s no way anything that pees is going near my mouth! LOL. But I pointed out to her that what she’s done is setting her up for getting raped, if nothing else. Especially if the pictures were to get out. And last night I reminded her that this boy used to be best friends with her exbf of 14 months, and if he got mad at her, as immature as he is and without morals, it would be nothing to him to email those pix to her exbf; I’m sure she never thought of that. PLUS, he used to date (and still talks to) her evil lifetime enemy, the girl who’s been trying to ruin her reputation since 7th grade – so now she pretty much has to keep this idiot from sharing her pictures. He swears he deleted them, but yeah. I reiterated to her last night (still hasn't gotten hold of him) that if she talks to him before I'm there, that she is to tell him that I WILL get on a plane and hunt him down with a rifle, if I find out he spreads those pictures. If I'm there when she gets hold of him, I'll tell him personally.

Justjilly, when you lost all that weight, was that a nervous breakdown kind of thing? From trying to be Superwoman? My house is so NOT clean that I’m embarrassed to have anyone come in. I’m serious. My kitchen floor gets cleaned maybe twice a year. Haven’t cleaned the baseboards since we moved here 4 ½ years ago. All the walls need painted...could go on, but it’s humiliating to live here, just like in our last house, which MrCat also failed to take care of, and I didn’t have time or resources to do it all myself. Plus the depression, so I'm lucky to even get laundry done, let alone clean. Thanks for reminding me of the dumpster. I need to keep bringing that up, so MrCat knows I’m serious about getting it.

Your husband commenting on your typing made me realize something. Which may be part of my problem. My H doesn’t compliment me. Well, sometimes about a dinner I make, but that’s only because I’m such a bad cook that he’s surprised, LOL. He may brag to other people about me, but I never hear it. I give him strokes all the time because I realize he needs it, but he doesn’t seem to think that way – that he needs to care about my feelings. I guess it’s going to have to come from me, the being honest and telling him that I need to hear it now and then. No wonder I have no self esteem. He’s free and easy with the judgment, but not the compliments.

I was raised with no self esteem. My mother knew it at the time but was incapable of understanding why. And she was such a self-absorbed person, I think she never gave it enough thought to want to do anything about it. And when my dad left when I was 12, I just followed the typical route of abandoned girls that age – seeking my father’s redemption through getting boys to stay with me through sex. The first time one tried, and I refused, he promptly dumped me, so I learned my lesson good and quick. Then meeting a mentally abusive, gorgeous boy who all the girls wanted, who wanted me(!), well, I never gave it a thought to stand up to him. The only reason I was able to leave him was that I was working with a bunch of men, who gave me the courage.

Absolutely. Which adds to my self-hatred. My whole life has been a long series of giving in to get along because I was never told I could stand up for myself.

Yes, that is what he thinks. Which has been built upon our old dysfunctional relationships early in the marriage. Between his seriously messed up life, and mine, there probably wasn’t much hope for a healthy one. And I think the main issue is that, because I’ve never been able to defend myself because I don’t believe in myself, he is always the one who ends up being ‘right,’ whether he really is or not, simply because I can’t argue with him without falling apart. Lately, as I age, I’m starting to talk back, so we’ve argued more. I just need to practice doing it better so that it doesn’t continue for him to always ‘win.’ And to be able to accept the fact that I don’t have to smooth him over as I have in the past.

Powerful words, which I hope to enact. Thank you.

Last night as I was heating up leftovers, MrCat came and hugged me and promptly grabbed my breasts and I 'playfully' pushed him away, like I always do - because it also makes me feel like an object; I hate it. I've told him not to do it a hundred times over the years, but he never stops. But last night, I turned to him and said, 'you know, if you did that without grabbing me there, I'd be a lot more willing to hug you, all the time.' Curious to see if that changes anything.

More later.

cat


I think it might be time to consider retitling this thread. You ARE starting to talk to him. I'm so happy for you, cat. You've come so far. I see so much growth in you. You speaking up to him is HUGE. I think it will make a difference. I think it already is, for you. I see your confidence building.

KUDOS!

Tama

Catperson, I'm so proud of all the changes you've made.


This was a little scary to read. Because when she is old enough to have sex, she is already wrapping it in thoughts of shame, humiliation and grossness. This will not lead to the loving sexual relationship she will need to succeed when she is ready to get married.

If there is a theological reason for the comment regarding oral sex, I can understand. But now is the time -- at the very same time you struggle with the issues of sex -- to help her get ready to enjoy SF. To understand mutual enjoyment is a part of a healthy, loving relationship.


I feel for you on this point. Your husband reminds of a domestic partner I had in the past. He was so messy, I became discouraged and gave up. Our home was humiliating. My home before him? Spotless and organized. After him? Spotless and organized. What do some judgemental people remember? Just the time I lived with him.

I have a feeling from your level of frustration that you are a clean person who is living with a disaster. You gave up out of frustration. (Honestly, one person cannot carry the full load of two people. It's not possible.) Remind yourself that your home is not a reflection of how your home would be if your husband helped.


IC can help so much with this. I had a therapist who made me itemize the good things about myself over and over. It finally sunk in. We buy the judgemental garbage that people put on us. Yes, we may have issues that need attention, so, no, we shouldn't ignore every criticism we receive. But we SHOULD question it. Is this really true? Are they referring to a single incidents, saying I'm ALWAYS like this, when I'm not? Etc., etc. Please start to question the judgements your husband heaps upon your head.


Here again this points to good discussion material with your IC because right now, for your daughter's sake, it should be a goal to find out what a healthy sex life is like, if only in theory.


This reminds me of the Harleys' philosophy of the Giver. The Giver gives so much it neglects your own needs. It doesn't protect you. The Taker is not present to help balance things out.


This sounds like simple misunderstandings that are leading to a lot of resentment in the area of SF.


Annoying Habit alert <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />! Good for you, telling him you don't like it, that offering a substitute behavior that you both would like (more hugging.)

Haven't had time to go back and sit down and finish thinking about all the rest of the posts, will do that later when I have time to work on it. Just wanted to say: I'm sitting at the kitchen table trying to finish a work project, while MrCat and D17 are watching tv, and MrCat gets up and picks up his 12-inch-high pile of mail from the kitchen counter, and sits back down with it, to go through it. And I get excited! I actually thought 'yippee' because he's getting that much junk out of our lives. How silly is that, that I get thrilled just to see my H go through mail? *sigh*

Cat,

I am home today with DD8 who has a fever.
Well I imagine it could be described as a nervous breakdown of sorts.

It was the result of my own D-day. My DH was having an A.

I am not sure if you are familar or not with my history or the origin of my M. I thought you were but in case you weren't... deep breath, you may or may not want me to continue to post to you after you know this. I will respect your choice either way.

Cat, both my DH and I were married before. We had an A in 1995. The A before it was exposed was only a couple of month. Both DH and I left our marriages. We were both selfish, what we did was NOT okay. We were both about as wayward as they come. I could go into the whys... but when I do is sounds like a load of crap to me now... foggy thinking. The bottom line was what we did was just plain wrong.

We eventually married in 1998. Fast forward to 2006. I discovered my DH was having an A with a coworker. The karma bus stopped at my door and let me know just how devastating the choices I had made previously were. So not only did I have the typical BS emotions, I also had the shame and disgust of knowing that I had done this to someone else. YUCK.

I was a total mess... my fear was that DH would leave me and marry the OW. That was not an unreasonable fear as this was what history had already shown me. (I did not know DH also feared that I would leave him when I found out... didn't know this for a long time and even when he did share this, I did not really believe him for a long time. And he had just as much reason to fear as I did. History had already shown that I left a marriage when I was unhappy. I certainly was NOT happy upon discovering this A and I feared also that I might leave as well.)

We decided to try to work it out. We were both a mess. And not only did we have to address the current A we had to address our own A... all that stuff. I was suicidal. We began to go to church. It was at this time that both DH and I developed a strong relationship with God. We had both been raised Christians, and had both rebelled against our faith. We also did counselling. His current A was more complicated by the fact that he and OW were using recreational drugs together. DH was terrified I would find this out, scared I would leave him if I learned this.

And by this point I had become addicted to prescription pain meds... had been taking them for years for a chronic pain condition... and it bled over into me self medicating my emtional pain as well. I was also being treated for panic/anxiety disorder prior to any of this. I was not addicted or abusing anxiety meds... but I was abusing pain meds.

DH had his own prescription meds isssues to deal with as well. We had learned to cope with a lot of our stuff by medicating it. It was a very unhealthy way to be.

So we had the current A, our own A, the addiction issues, as well as a boatload of FOO stuff to deal with.

What we learned is that people are not replaceable. We both held the false belief that in our first M's that it was about the other person. That it would somehow be different with someone else. Turns out all our issues followed us into our M as well. So we were not any better off. Changing partners did not fix anything.

And I spiraled... for about the first six months after D-day. I got sick, developed ulcers, lost weight, had so many stomach problems... I was just sick. And the weight loss caused I believe a lot of fatigue as well. Thank God we had 8 weeks after for summer vacation right after D-day because I don't know if I could have worked.

We made the choice to stay together and try to work this M out. We believed that divorcing would not fix anything either. It has been a rollercoaster. There are some people here that believe we should have divorced. We have kids. Neither DH or I believed this was the best thing for them.

So here we are 20 months out from D-day. We are clean and sober... in recovery that way... and we are working on our M.

I cannot change who I was or the despicable choices I made. We have both done amends to the people we hurt as a result of our A.

I can be more specific about those amends if you like.

I wanted to share this with you in case you decide that you would not wish to continue posting with someone who is in an affair based marriage. I can accept if you can't. Part of the consequences for my choices.

Anyway, let me know. I thought I had shared that with you before or I wouldn't have been posting to you without disclosing that. Sheesh I though most people on MB knew... as whether or not I should even post on this message board was a big controversy. It is the reason, my own boundary that I do not post often on GQII.

I will wait to hear you choice and go from there.

Jilly

Oh please! Show me one person on here who doesn't need forgiving, and I'll show you a liar! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, thank you for sharing. It makes absolutely no difference to me what you or anyone else has done. Personally, I like to think of myself as PMB and AMB - pre-Marriage Builders and after-Marriage Builders. Nothing I have done before learning MB matters, because I was...unenlightened.

Some may have issue with me saying it makes no difference, when I have said on another's thread that I would never forgive my H for an A. But that's just my case; I have no right to judge anyone for anything. And if we're being honest here? I wish my H would have an A so I'd have an excuse to leave him. If I left for any other reason, it'd be on my shoulders for not working hard enough to fix things. But I don't have the feelings I'm supposed to have for him, and never have; I honestly only married him because he wanted me (when I believed I was unloveable), and I was raised to believe I had to get married, so I went ahead and got married. I've grown to love him, but it's never been the head over heels, I'll die without you love. It might have been if we hadn't both had so many issues, but all the struggles I've had with his controlling and anger and pessimism have made it hard to attain that love. So I don't think I'd feel the brunt of the pain that most people would feel.

But anyway, please, I think you're one of the most valuable posters here. I always learn from you. Post away! And I hope your daughter gets better.

I had IC yesterday, very productive. Talked a lot about FOO and we determined that the reason I freak out so much today about my house falling apart and looking bad is that as a teenager, with my dad having left when I was 12, my mom was working 80 hours a week for close to minimum wage (i.e., we were at poverty level), my brother was away at college, and I basically was alone in my house for 4 years, watching it basically fall apart around me because mom couldn’t afford to fix anything, and my dad wouldn’t help. I remembered someone coming to our door, asking if I wanted them to mow our yard, because the neighbors...were getting concerned. In other words, our house was the neighborhood embarrassment.

As I was telling her this, I suddenly remembered going out to the yard and trying to trim the grass – the entire yard - by hand, with the only tool we had – one of those little scissors-like bush trimmers, because I was so ashamed. I’ve repressed nearly all my childhood, so it was surprising to remember that.

Then we realized that all 3 houses I’ve lived in with H, he allowed to fall apart, and I had no control over it because of my inability to stand up for myself. So I basically have been reliving my humiliating childhood, over and over again, as I watch each house fall apart around me. Thus the unrelenting feeling I have every minute of every day I’m at home, that I need to be ‘doing’ something. But 90% of what needs done is something only H can do, and I’ve never had any spare money to pay for someone else to do it. And since I’ve never stood up for myself and said ‘enough!’, I had no control.

So, fast forward to this morning, I tell MrCat what I learned about the house thing, ending with “So I realized that when things fall apart at this house (slight DJ, but not directed at him), I’m reliving my childhood.” He’s listening, looking at me, and when I end with that, he says “Go see if D17 is ready to go.” Once again, if I say something personal, he changes the subject. I turn and walk away, and he can tell I’m hurt/upset, because he calls out “Are you mad?”

Now, I know he didn’t respond because of his own fear and his own acknowledgment and shame that he’s not fixing the house, and because he simply doesn’t know how to discuss sensitive stuff. But so blatantly shutting me off like that...*sigh*

So I come back downstairs and he’s still standing there. I say “One of the few times in my life that I’ve ever told you anything personal about myself, and you change the subject. It hurts.” He said he answered me; I said, no, you just told me to go get D17. He backpedaled, said I was turning away (I wasn’t), so he thought the discussion was over. So I just shook my head and left.

But at least I told him something personal (very rare) and I also told my feelings after being shut off.

I need to talk some more here about the rest of what y’all said about the other night, and add in what the IC said about it, but I’m really swamped at work this week, and need to put some thought into it first. I put this down because I didn’t want to forget how it went. More later.

Thnaks, cat for the update! That is so cool that you are back in the pattern of you sharing your O&H. And then, you are O&H about the "change back" behavior, too!

Cat, how would you feel about looking at your H as someone going through the same shame-based issues you are, but without the same support system that you have. Maybe YOU are the support system that he has, for today. Until he is ready to find a support system that is not just you. That's a lot of burden on one pair of shoulders. How can you balance helping him, without losing yourself?

It looks to me (my opinion, not fact) that you are getting out from under that rock a little bit at a time. Which would stop enabling him, and his pain would be to show him that he would benefit from growing more self-reliant and more willing to ask for help from others. Not just you, maybe an IC, too, and other friends. That he could do this and take some burden off of you, so that your 15 hours of UA time would be focusing on each other in love instead of attending to his wounds.

What do you all do for RC? Would this be another way to get out of the counselor role with him, to get involved in enjoyable activities, where you each are meeting needs instead of tending his wounds?

I think it is awesome that you can share your background with him, but this is far from the bulk of your time together. You were telling him the problem, and now you all can brainstorm solutions. But you were not placing this burden on his shoulders. But yet (my opinion) I could see him in your story placing this burden on his shoulders, and then immediately throwing it off. What about holding it in your hands together and looking at it, getting enough information to solve it in the present (ie fixing your current home up) without putting it back on either of your shoulders? Then feeling free to set it down, knowing that you have a plan in place to address it?

Applause, applause! Even though he didn't respond the way you needed to respond, how brave to do what you did <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. And what progress to have connected a childhood issue with your present day life.

Oh Cat,

Thank you for your response. I still have great fear when I share this. And I still have to remember that not everyone does know my history or the origin of my marriage.

I am grateful that you can accept me where I am now. The past remains what it is... I cannot change it. Doesn't mean I am still the same person. I liked your analogy of PMB and AMB. Reminds of Maya Angelou's saying "When we know better we do better." I really didn't understand the idea of why setting up boundaries in a marriage, to protect the marriage, really matters. I didn't get that extraordinary precautions were necessary. I so get that now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I liked this part... rang true for me. We all do need forgiving.

I am home again today, with DD8 who still has a fever, a cough, and is sneezing. Fever is averaging about 101 degrees... no vomiting, but no appetite either. Last night when her fever was 102 I let her have a popsicle... (we are THOSE parents who let their kids eat popsicles when they have fevers. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />) She did not want to take Tylenol because she thought she might throw it up. If it goes above 102 then I insist. 102... that's my limit. At least she isn't running at 105, which she has often, when she has had flu like stuff. I am really watching the cough, since when she was in kinder, she developed pneumonia after a bout with the flu and was so sick she missed three weeks of school.

This year, in my area, we have been inindated with a lot of junk... colds and flu, bronchitis, pneumonia, and meningitis. I have had more students out this year than any other year I think. Ugh... not fun stuff for kids or parents. I was gonna respond to you yesterday after I read your post and then I laid down with DD, and wound up sleeping on and off the rest of the day and other than taking care of her, I didn't get anything done. I don't know if I was just tired, kinda felt like I might be coming down with something myself, but I feel okay today.

DH has agreed to take tomorrow and Friday off if DD is still sick. And DSS also has a cold, but no fever, so he is toughing it out and going to school.

Next week is a district wide vacation week, so it will be nice to have some time off. Maybe I can make a dent in the housework. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I am so behind.

I will respond to what you said about your house being messy in my next post to you... I get not wanting people to come over though... as I write this, there are some dishes in the sink, and about 5 loads of clean laundry that are in baskets and need to be folded. I am gonna wind up shoving them back in the dryer on the dewrinkle cycle, since they are wrinkeld from sitting in those baskets since the weekend.

And I checked one set out of the four sets of the papers I need to check. I am going to try to get that done today too.

My dad is fond of saying that when your to do list or inbox is empty then it means you are dead... cause it never will be empty or all finished. Good to know. Thanks dad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am so happy for you that you are doing the IC, it is really good self care. I like that your therapist is helping you reach back to the FOO stuff to help you get into how and why it is still with you today. Sounds like you are making good progress with the IC.

I know that you have stated that your DH doesn't really want to accept that he has any issues... that it appears it is always about other people, but I know you now know that is his OWN fear talking. Maybe as he witnesses your own growth, he will be more willing to do some of his own work. Even as we already know we can only do our part, our half, hard not to wish that our partners would get on board. 30 years is a long time... to get to the point that you are... it is gonna take some time to change some of those patterns. Although at times it might not feel like it, being married for 30 years, is really quite an accomplishment. So there are issues (all marriages have them) you still have bragging rights for sticking it out... when others would have left Cat.

That is something Cat, it really is.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Jilly

That's what I was hoping to do. I thought that, by mentioning the stress I'm under because of FOO and current house, by bringing the subject up, we could talk about it. Maybe come up with one thing we could work on together, to whittle away at it all. That's what IC told me to do. But we never got to talk about it, because he changed the subject. Out of shame, I'm sure, but that still doesn't get the subject discussed.

D17 will be gone for the weekend at a conference, so I think I might say on Friday, after I take her to the conference, that I'm going to tackle one of the projects this weekend. He usually steps in when I do that, and takes it over (because in his words I'll just do it wrong), and then holds it over me later, a la 'I'm always having to do work because of you.' But IC told me to just say, I've asked you to do it for X years, and I just can't handle it not being done any more. So I'll take care of it. But thank you for offering to help. Then see what happens.

Cat,

I wanted to address this part of your post because it made me think of a book you might want to read called The Five Languages of Love by Gary Chapman.

Chapman's pretense in the book is similar in some ways to Harley's emotional needs, love bank concept. Chapman calls it a "love tank" which is really pretty much the same thing as Harley's love bank. Chapman describes five love languages spoken. The five are: Words of Affirmation; Quality Time; Receiving Gifts; Acts of Service; and Physical Touch.

Basically we give and receive love in our primary love language. My primary love language is Acts of Service. I do things for others and my bank fills when others "do" things for me. My DH on the other hand is a Words of Affirmation speaker. It is why he often compliments me. He speaks this language and receives love this way as well. He likes to be complimented, affirmed.

When I read the above, I wondered if maybe you are also a Words of Affirmation gal. You often compliment Mr.Cat, yet you feel like he rarely compliments you. Could be the reason you do compliment, as this is a way that you receive love. Could be Mr.Cat is another primary language... my guess might be he is a Physical Touch speaker based on stuff you have posted. It is possible to have one dominant language and then another one that is sort of secondary as well.

Understanding how we give and receive love, as well as our partners, and it maybe very different is helpful. It helped me, because I was immediately able to see which language both my DH and I spoke. Knowing this, allowed both of us to make efforts to show love for each other in each other's primary language. I work to affirm or compliment my DH more, and he works to do more stuff for me.

It sounds to me like your mom had a lot of her own issues and these issues interfered with her ability to really be present for you growing up. Sounds as if she had her own abandonment issues... and you have those too. I have them too so I get that. One of the things that I understand better about the shame and fear about abandonment is that it can manifest in the abandoning behavior itself. Seems kinda weird that as someone who feared greatly being abandoned that I would exhibit abandonment behaviors as well. I think it is totally a fear based reaction. In other words, if you fear being abandoned, one way to protect yourself is to keep others at arms length... don't let anyone in too close because if you do the risk that they will leave you is not worth the chance they won't. So, I would leave before getting left. And I learned that I also chose to abandon myself... many times. I believe it is a shame-based act of self preservation. What do you think about this?

Yep, and when we chose to abandon ourselves we build huge resentments... toward ourselves. As you are learning to stand up for yourself, that your voice matters, does that increase or decrease the fear?

Here is the part that gets sticky. I know that I have had to accept some things that I didn't want to acknowledge about my own power and how I gave it away due to a lack of belief that I was safe. We always have had the power to defend ourselves Cat, we just chose not to. The fear that we weren't safe to do so is where we got stuck. Fear of abandonment teaches us that if we speak up, disagree, then we run the risk of being left. So we disown ourselves, keep quiet, because the fear is so high that if we don't we will be left.

What are we learning about this now though? We can speak our minds, we can have arguements, and we are still okay. Our voices matter Cat, they really do. And when we choose to shut ourselves up, to keep the peace, we disown ourselves... by saying the smoothing over is the most important thing. But we also are realizing that the smoothing over... is only a temporary fix... builds huge resentment in us. Someone posted that resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die. I've heard it two ways... one with resentment and one with revenge... they seem linked to me though. When we choose to go for the smoohting over, when we cave, (and I am still doing this too, you are not alone on this one at all) we violate ourselves.

Nasty pattern it is... based in fear.

Wow Cat, good for you for sharing you O&H about the affection. My DH also does the hug to grope thing too. Sometimes it doesn't bother me and others times it annoys me so much... like insect repellent almost. I think as we learn to be more O&H with our DH's about this, not to shame them for this, but to clarify for them... why this type of affection is not always appreciated, then we are doing our half, our part in helping them to understand why this isn't met with good reception on our parts. My IC helped me with this some, shared that many men show affection this way, and that for some women this causes tension because there is an underlying fear of the expectation that this is a push for SF when it might not be. It may be some of the time and it may just be groping with no further expectation. Hard to know isn't it?

My IC shared with me that often for women when this happens we tense up. We don't switch gears that fast and so if we can share this with our DH's, that it isn't that we do not want SF or that there advances are totally unwelcome, that sometimes we need time to shift gears. The recoiling comes from the hidden expectation of SF. Can feel like pressure to switch gears quickly which we may not be able to do.

Jilly

Heya Cat, I found you. I'm not sure when I'm going to be able to read 22 pages,and at least I can catch up slowly.

Cat - As I read some things on your thread, you are a lot like my XW in some ways, maybe many ways. Its actually kind of nice to see, because if things I am doing would appeal to you, that might mean they appeal to her, too.

EOP, if you're trying to win back your ex, Al Turtle has a lot of success with those cases, like TheTallMan here if you want to search for his thread. You can find Al Turtle on his site linked in my sig line.

I think in some cases men don't know what to do with a piece of information like you shared above. It seems like a minefield, and anything they say will be wrong. Your dh seems to not be able to make that stretch to put himself in your shoes, so he can't empathize as you would wish.

I'm assuming that you have asked him many times in the past to either take more of an interest in the house or to hire someone else to do the job? He may have seen your sharing this as an emotional ploy to get him to do this work. Since he didn't want an argument, and he didn't know what to say, he changed the subject.

My dad does this. You can tell him the most personal thing and he just looks at me like "so what you want me to do about it?"

I know you said that there is no money in the budget for lawn care, but perhaps you could segment a little money out of the groceries? Then just hire someone to come in. If your dh complains about gettng beans instead of steak you can say the money for the steak went to mow the lawn because it was becoming a fire hazard.

My dad would never do any home-care on our house, but instead spent all of his free time working on his neighbors houses. Eventually the only way I could get him to fix any thing for us was to casually bring up whatever was broken in conversation while he had a friend over. They would usually tease him, and he'd be forced to fix it. I didn't get in trouble because technically I was telling truth.

Your dad sounds just like my H. He bends over backwards to prove to everyone but me how upstanding and giving and wonderful he is. I've read that people with low self esteem do that.

I was thinking this exact same thing on the way home from work today. The way I worded it, what was he supposed to say? Oh, honey, I'm so sorry for you. Or Now it makes sense and I need to get started on all that stuff.

I set him up for failure by saying it that way. I'm going to apologize tonight for possibly putting him on the spot. Explain that I was just trying to work out my issues.

Of course, Friday, I'm going to let him know that I WILL pick something on our list and get it accomplished. Hopefully, he can assimilate the information and see that helping me will make things better.

He did admit to me once that when we lived at our last house, amidst all the crap about our whole neighborhood thinking he was a child molester, that he buried himself in repair work at our church, because it was the one thing that made him feel good about himself, and because he couldn't face being in our home with all that it symbolized (a war zone, the loss of his respect in the community).

IC told me that I have to make it plain to him, regardless, that I can no longer live like this, with all the things he DOESN'T do for our family. Set that boundary for myself. That's a big one.

Ears, thanks so much for this. I will definitely check out his site (hey...eyes and ears...I chuckled). Winning back my ex will be a long process, we both have healing to do. I just know that we are so strongly connected that for us not to be together when we're healthy would seem like a crime.

Eyes, that last sentence was very nice. Keep that close to you.

Ok, here's some of my thoughts on the last few days' worth of help from you guys.

No he wouldn’t, and yes he would stop. He has absolutely no idea how I feel (thus the purpose of this thread – to teach me to talk to him). I’ve never felt I had the right to say no to sex unless I had a good reason. All buried in my lack of self worth.

I suppose he does consider it make-up sex. The problem is that he always controls the reasons for needing it, he always creates the issues and thus determines when I have to make up. My need here is to get the courage to stop the sick dance we have, so these events no longer happen. My IC told me basically the same thing you all did; that I have to just brave it out, refuse to participate the next time this happens. Even though I know what will happen, that he will get mad and escalate, but that I still have to brave it out, even though it escalates. Yada yada, stay calm, don’t participate, the same pep talk I give all of you, LOL.

I tried to get discussion, but he refused to talk. Acted like a 2 year old. So I’m supposed to either turn over and pretend to go to sleep, knowing he’ll get up and start banging things and cleaning (!) and telling me how it’s all my fault and he ought to just die…, or else get up and go to another room. And let it happen in there. Love my choices.

I hadn’t thought of that. Thank you for pointing it out. I shared it all with IC last night, including what you said, and she changed D17’s next session from a family session (with MrCat, to try to achieve some agreements with him), to a personal one, so she could work on D17’s self esteem issues.

I spent all my teen years being the only person who cleaned our house; I remember scrubbing the disgusting crumbling floors, to no avail; trying to make broken countertops and windowsills and stair banisters look good, despite them all falling apart. Trying to hide from everyone how destitute we were. Combined with what I learned about all that in IC last night, and my being a clean person, and you’re right on the money. Every day of my life is a source of pain because of this house (and the last one and the last one and the last one). There is so much...junk in my life I can barely breathe.

Regarding the mess, the 3-car garage stacked 8 feet high with his crap, the office I can’t see the floor in, the bedroom full of boxes full of stuff he’s never looked at, the kitchen cabinets that should hold glasses and bowls but are half-full of his papers - IC told me that MrCat is ‘stuck’ and I have to be the one to un-stick our family because he can’t. I had an argument tonight with D17 because I went into the room where the cat boxes are (her job) and there’s cat poo all over the carpet in the room because the cat boxes haven’t been cleaned in 4 or 5 days (and I’m the one who cleaned it last). The day after our ‘problem’ she went around and did all kinds of chores, to make up for the email thing and in hopes that I wouldn’t tell dad about it, but since then? Nothing. It’s days like this where I just want to lay down and quit; I’m so overwhelmed and depressed. Realizing what my issue is – the need for at least a half-picked-up house, let alone a clean one, doesn’t make it any easier to deal with, when I live with two people who couldn’t care less if the house is picked up or the mountain of mess is cleared. I feel all alone in a house of 3. And I’m just so very tired. I either do it all myself, I live in a pigsty in misery, or I become superbitch and make them help me.

More later.

I get what you’re saying but we’re so screwed up at this point, we don’t have any UA time, and the only way he’ll do IC is when it’s for D17. He has no friends, and doesn’t want any.

I know I need to, but between needing to finish 3 years of taxes, visit my mother on the weekend, the mountain of work on the house, depression, getting D17 to all the stuff she does, I just don’t have the energy to even care if we do RC.

I’m sorry, but I really don’t understand this paragraph. Can you elaborate?

I will add it to my list, thanks. Right now I’m reading Emotional Alchemy. I forget who recommended it months ago, but I enjoy it very much, so thank you.

I’m sure you’re right. I guess my resentment is setting in, because I’m so overwhelmed I’m having trouble finding enough energy to try. But I get the point. When I’m in a better place, I will work on figuring out where he functions from.

I’ve been numb my entire life, I believe. Out of self-preservation. My earliest memory is of being left alone at the kitchen table while mom, dad and brother went out to play (because I wouldn’t eat my vegetables). My next memory is of taking brother to a special school, because he’s got a genius IQ (and I didn’t), so the family had to make special considerations for him; and then when I asked, my mom telling me ‘don’t worry, just because you’re not as smart as him doesn’t mean you’re stupid. (gee thanks)’ I remember wondering when I got married why I wasn’t feeling anything. Even when D17 was born, I was secretly sad.

I’m afraid of confrontation. Period. I’ve built my whole life around avoiding confrontation. Smoothing things over. There may be resentment there, but it’s buried so far under my depression and numbness I can’t tell.

I’ve told him it makes me scared. I suspect I had issues with abuse from my father, but I will probably never go there. But I’ve told H and he chooses to not hear me. Bottom line, it all boils down to me reaching a point where I can no longer take it.

I make it sound like I’m married to a monster, but that’s not true. He loves me like crazy. Sex is probably as good as it gets for the woman. When he does learn something, he embraces it. But my inability to speak so hampers our progress that it is excrutiatingly slow. I think if H was interested in fixing things and willing to accept that some of the blame may be on his shoulders, we could be getting somewhere. But I'm so bloody tired of being the strong one, the progressive one, I don't know if I have the energy to hold his hand through all this.

Ears,

Okay, I feel a little lost. Any idea where TheTallMan's thread might be? I did a standard search and it didn't really help. Also, for Al Turtle, its a big site. Any ideas on a starting point? Thanks in advance!

Hi Cat,

I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about sharing some of your foo history with your dh. We are all different, and something that might not bother one person can bother another person enormously.

You might tell him something like "I'm telling you this so that you can understand why it bothers me so much when X happens (or doesn't happen)."

I just had this happen recently with my dh and I. I've posted a little on here about my dh being very critical of my driving. When we first dated I wouldn't drive him anywhere because I was afraid of being criticized and my father was very critical of everything I did. Gradually, over time I started doing more of the driving. And dh started being the worst back-seat driver you ever saw. He said he'd try and stop, but just kept doing it.

So, I explained about my dad, and how badly his criticisms were hurting me, even though he's not like that about anything else. He really understood what I was saying and was remorseful about having caused me hurt. I responded that he seems very nervous when he's riding in my car with me, and he asked if I'd be willing to drive his truck instead.

Well, we tried that, and amazingly he was happy as a clam. Not nervous, not constantly looking around to make sure that I wasn't ignoring some traffic hazard, not criticizing my driving and giving me orders. Turns out that my car sits very low to the ground and his truck is very high, so it gives him a big sense of security to be able to see things from that angle.

Amazing. I guess it just took us some non-judgemental sharing and some brainstorming to come up with a solution.

Eyes,

Here is a link to The_Tall_Man's thread. This is his long one, but once you have this one you can search his other ones by clicking on his user name.

The_Tall_Man's Thread on Manipulation, Control, and Reality

It is worth the read.

Hope this helps,
Jilly

Jilly - Thanks!

Ears - I think I figured out Al Turtle's site. I'm fascinated by it, and have lots of reading to do. Thankfully, I have the house to myself this weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EOP, I'm glad it helped. I really connected with what I saw there, too. His stuff is so effective at helping me when I'm struggling with hope, that I can see how it would help others, too.

Ears - I'm glad it helps you. I think it will do the same for me.

Cat,

There is a new poster here on EN forum whose story reminds me of you and I am wondering if you might swing by and see if you can help.

Her name is GoingCrazy and here is a link to her thread.

GoingCrazy's thread

Thanks,
Jilly

If he follows you into a room, I would say, DH, I need to be away from you right now. Look at it this way, I did not leave the house. I did not go to a bar to comfort myself. I am just in another room because you are upsetting me. I expect in the future that you will respect this.

There is an exception: If you come to this room wanting to be very kind and speak openly and respectfully about what is going on, I am willing. Otherwise, please respect me and let me sleep.

CP, on several occasions, I left the house when my DH upset me. I am a good girl; usually went to the 24 grocery store or a coffee house. BUT it was awful for DH. We finally had a blowup where I swore I would not walk out on him. But if we were fighting and I could not stand to be near him, I would go to another room... and he would have to respect that. He agreed.

Your DH does not know how lucky he is. You are not the kind of woman to leave the house and drown your sorrows in liquor -- or with another man. I wish he knew how lucky he is.

One similarity I have noticed between you and me is that unlike most of the couples the Harleys deal with, we spend way more than the 15 hours per week with our spouses.

I wonder what the Harleys have to say on this? I'm beginning to think that if you spend more than twenty hours a week together, you begin to get on each others nerves. And you are with a husband similar to mine. No really social friends.

I love having friends, but have none (locally) now, and despite my DH's protests to the contrary, every time I reach out to make friends, I get the cold shoulder from DH. (He then goes into a spastic demonstration of how many friends he has, calling all of his OS friends.)

I am really curious what the Harleys would have to say about the reverse situation we are in.

valentine spice, are you spending 15 hours meeting one another's top ENs? Both of you? I don't hear cat saying that they are spending this time in ways that would meet her top ENs. That this time is actually full of LBs. She's working on her O&H, so she can let her H know what she does and does not want.

Very good question. I think we are spending them the only way our husbands will permit. My DH won't open up to me except on his own terms. Won't smile or have fun unless he wants to. I can meet his ENs to the best of my ability and get the same result from him during our time together. He's grumpy then sweet, grouchy then mean. And always demanding. (Similar to CP's husband, sweet when he wants me to do something for him. I remember one day recently relaxing on the couch with him. He put on a chick flick and started stroking my cheek. I thought, "Oh, no, what does he want now?" He wanted me to go to the store to get him ice cream with the works. Almost wouldn't let me see the end of the movie before demanding (sweetly) that I go. It's tough to get cozy with a man who uses sweetness to gain favors.)

So I guess you could say I attempt to meet my DH's RC needs during those times. I attempt to. He would probably say I fail as he believes I fail at most things I attempt to do.

Does he meet my ENs? No, not usually. I guess that is because I have been in a form of Plan A for a while now. He hasn't read any of the books. My top needs are O&H (he is truthful EXCEPT that he is an avoid trouble liar but he is not very open,) SF (what once was the best in his life is now a woman who is too demanding, too tight and orgasms too many times. I am not permitted to initiate anymore,) Affection (in one area he increased cuddling but hugging/random kisses have all but disappeared. Now cuddling is disappearing too,) Admiration (compliments are rare, insults plentiful,) and Financial Support (he may get laid off.)

I could safely say that my ENs are barely being met if at all. FS for the time being is the only one at a solid ten. My non-top five of RC is kinda being met -- but with a lack of the variety I need.

CP, sorry for the threadjack. I think our situation with ENs is similar. No amount of increasing that time together is going to help if DHs have no interest in meeting our ENs, is it?

How is it going seeking O&H during your times together?

My O&H? It's ok. I've mentioned being on MB a couple of times. Last Sunday when we picked up D17 from a youth conference in another town, I read one of the articles to him from MB. He didn't answer, of course, but I'm assuming he listened.

Today, D17 asked if we could go horseback riding (about an hour drive away from here), MrCat agreed. But when it was time to go, I wasn't moving to go, and he asked if I was going. I said I'd rather stay home and work on taxes (we're 3 years behind). He groused a little, 'whatever you want to do' with some attitude, but by the time they left, he was fine (I think). I've spent most of my life doing whatever he decided we needed to do, because he gripes if I don't. So that is one of my biggest steps to take, to say I don't want to go along with him.

As for the rest, I think the changes I've made toward being nicer to him are starting to pay off, if minutely. Yesterday he dropped something and bent over and picked it up and threw it away. I know that sounds ridiculous to you guys, but in this house it's a big thing. He literally drops his clothes in a line on the floor, as he moves to change clothes; that's how uninterested he is in self care - knows I'm behind him picking up after him. Yesterday I asked him to help me mulch some flower beds, and he actually did come out! He didn't do what I asked, of course - he decided that he needed to fix some drainage issues, and some other things, went on to weed another area. But at least he came out when I asked and did some work on the house.

So I'm being O&H by asking his help and bringing up things I never would have discussed before. I'm getting there.

Cat, that sounds very positive! You stood firm and true to yourself, staying home because you wanted to do something responsible that you would've worried about if you'd gone. You didn't yield to his "change back" grousing.

And he's done some stuff around the house! Even picking something up himself - yes that's huge!

Excellent work on the O&H. Good job.

Good work <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I had that one domestic partner that was like your husband. Yes, it would amaze me when he picked up anything, anything at all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Addressing O&H topics is a lot harder than I expected it to be, so I can see why it moves slowly.

Hi cat, do you ever step over to the InRecovery board? There are two posters there, dirt35 and FogFree who I think could benefit a lot from your insight and what you share about self-confidence. Would you please take a look?

Well, that was a disaster, eo! (going to FF's thread, I mean) I thought I was saying something that made sense, that was logical, that it would help, but I guess since I don't really spend time over there with BSs I'm not used to having to tread so lightly and realize that the nerves are so raw. I'm an awfully blunt person, so I think I really should stay away from places like that - I'm just not...sensitive enough. But I was in tears last night because of what happened, even now when I think of it I'm bawling again, so I guess I really need to address why I have such a strong need to be needed and helpful and appreciated. Hah, wonder where D17 gets that?

I have IC today, and I can already tell it's going to be a crying fest.

Anyhoo, I just came here to tell y'all that D17 is going to be at church all weekend for a famine thing, so I called H last night and told him we should go dancing Saturday night. He loves it, but I've pulled away so much, I've stopped doing anything like that with him, because I feel too vulnerable; but I know I have to start making attempts to give him back what he's been missing. He was pleasantly surprised. And this morning, he gave me a nice 20-minute massage before we got out of bed - with no SF!

And then, as we were getting ready, I told him that I was going to get the house organized because I'm going to start hiring a cleaning service (one of his no-no's). I told him that I think the reason no one came to our annual New Year's party this year is because our house is so filthy (it is). He didn't say anything, but he didn't say no. So, baby steps.

Good for you! Sometimes you have to start living the way you want your life to be...at some point you can't POJA the cleaning of your house if he doesn't want to do it and forbids a cleaning service.

As far as the dancing...sometimes you have to "fake it until you make it", that is, do the RC activities until you get more love bank deposits and you start to feel it.

CP, there is a new book out called, "Why Do I Keep Doing That? Why Do I Keep Doing That? Breaking Negative Patterns in Your Life." I am reading it. Even though it's a little too cursory, I'm learning a LOT about myself. That I am repeating mistakes in many areas of my life. There are tips on how to really break those patterns.

Ears, I know this topic, I just noticed that you and your H have the same age difference as my ex and I (I'm 46, she's 30). I'm curious as to how you regard him with the age difference at this point in time as compared to how you did when you first met. It may help me in my situation. You can respond here or over on my "How to Rebuild from Scratch" or "A New Chapter Opening" thread in After Divorce.

Thanks!

All, I'm leaving in about 30 minutes for IC, and I was wondering, if anyone's lurking, if you can help me pinpoint what's going on with me, so I don't waste the hour. I'm married to a man who obviously loves me to death, has no intention of leaving me or cheating on me, wants to buy me things, extremely romantic and great in SF, has an amazing mind and the potential to be a great person in business if his insecurities would allow him (keeps sabotaging himself). We live in an amazing house on the 'rich' street', 4500 sq ft, 3 cars, 3 time shares, if I say I want a new cat or piece of furniture or whatever, he just says fine, or goes out and buys it for me. He would move heaven and earth for D17.

You all know the issues I have, he can't be questioned because of his self-esteem, etc., he won't deal with things, he has a mother anger issue he lays on me, stuff like that, ALL of which would be solved if I would just set boundaries and speak out loud, but I'm afraid to.

So why do I feel so warped? Why do I just want to lay down and sleep and not get up? To walk away and have no responsibilities to anyone? To just be alone? I should be glad I have so much to be thankful for, and that just makes me feel more guilty for not being thankful. I go home every day and I'm so overwhelmed I don't do anything, and just want to sleep (but I don't; I come on here, piddle around the house, attend to family). I'm so tired of trying to get D17 to care about the house and help me without me having to ask/tell her. I gave up on H doing it. I carry this bag of papers and mail and stuff back and forth to work every day, thinking I'll get around to taking care of it all, never do, fix something and just add more each day to the bag. When I need to schedule a vacation or whatever, it takes me 2 or 3 months to get around to it. Same with everything. I'm just so tired of everything seeming like so much work, and I'm tired of seeing everyone around me seem to be ok with their lives and wondering what's wrong with me.

I guess it's just a depression that's making me so giddy and rudderless and feeling pointless? But then I feel like I have no reason to be depressed when I have so much to be thankful for. Do I really want to go through with the rigamorole of finding a dr to get ADs from and visit them all the time, all that mess? Will it make a difference?

Any insight out there?

Real depression is a medical condition and you can't wish yourself well any more than a diabetic can wish themselves well. If you have true medical depression and not just sadness, antidepressents will be a tremendous help to you. You need to see a doctor to know for sure. Best of luck. By the way, you are not warped, you sound like you may be depressed.

You sound like how I've been feeling lately.

I hope it's not too late before your session, but it probably is depending on your time zone.
I wonder if you're feeling down because in your mind you told yourself you'd wait until your D was 18 and then reeavluate, and you still feel like you're not getting your ENs met.

I think that because of your past, you're afraid of standing up for yourself, and maybe you need to heal from that before you are able to see that you're an adult now and you have power. You're not that kid anymore.

I know it's hard when your H acts like your father or your mother, it takes you back to that place of feeling like a child.

I think it's also this time of year. Almost everyone I know is complaining about being tired all the time, feeling down, not getting anything done, wanting to sleep constantly. I think we just need spring to get here, to be in the light and smell the flowers and hear the birds sing again!

As you know, I have a chronic illness. When I have a better day, I sometimes berate myself. I can function, why didn't I get anything done yesterday? I am fine, why did I think I was a cripple yesterday?

When you are having a slightly better day, you can question yourself. Do I really need this counseling? Look how good I've got it. But, CP, you have very bad, scary days. Sometimes I get very worried for you. Please keep going.

When you have worked through this pain, you may very well be the happy, content woman you described in your post. Please don't rush it. (((( Hugs ))))

Cat, I think living with a negative man has a toll, and I don't think there's anything wrong with you that it distorts your own perspective. Have you ever read any of Iyanla Vanzant's books? She says that she is very careful choosing her friends because we take on the attitudes of those who we are around the most. Who can you spend time with who makes you feel great?

(((Cat)))

I was thinking about both you and Ears yesterday. I had to go back to what happened on the recovery board and try to ascertain what happened there and since some of your posts there had been deleted (I get why you deleted them) it took me a few minutes to piece together what had been said that caused such an uproar on that thread. Ummmm... the dreaded "gift" of infidelity analogy. Please know you are not the first person to use the gift notion.

Other people who have used the word "gift" have been chewed up and spit out... had their [censored] handed back to them in a sling for it. For many BS's it is very difficult especially early on to think of their spouses cheating as a gift. When you are early in the stages of discovery, when you can't get out of bed, can't eat, can't sleep, and in some cases feeling like you don't want to go on... hard to see the affair as a gift. I think shortly after my own D-day and becoming a BS ( and yes, my own recovery process has been different because of the circumstance of my current marriage which began as an affair... yep, I got to find out the hard way EXACTLY what my own horrible choices effect were for the others. And there are still many people who would say I got what I deserved... and I can't really disagree with them Cat, seems becoming the BS is what it took for me to finally GET what I myself had done, but that didn't lessen the pain of my DH's choice to have an affair. I was (although there are those that think I should have anticipated it... I didn't. The idea that if they'll cheat with you they'll cheat on you... NOPE didn't see that one coming.)

What I am getting at is that although maybe I shouldn't have been surprised that infidelity occurred in second M, I was. I will share with you a bit of how I view the process of recovering an M after an A.

To me the analogy that works for me... is that of a very serious car accident. Say the BS is driving their car along and they sort of start to have a feeling that something might be wrong with their car (the marriage). The BS mentions to the WS... that they have a feeling something is wrong with their car and the WS tells them no it is all in your head, that your car is just fine. You start to think, well, maybe there really isn't anything wrong with my car, it is just getting older and maybe all the stuff that seem wrong with the car are just signs the car is getting older.

But that nagging feeling doesn't go away. Then one day the WS and the BS are driving along and another car barrels out in front of them... the WS (who happens to be driving) slams on the brakes... only to find the brakes are completely shot and they hit the other car going 70 MPH. It is a head on collision. The BS is severely injured in the accident... the WS spouse is also injured but their injuries are not as life threatening. You are both taken to the hospital and you are hooked up to a life support machine. (This is what D-day is like... a head on collision.) The car is nearly if not completely totaled. The OP and their BS were in the other car that you hit head on. The OP was driving their car and their own BS had also had a nagging sense that something was wrong with their car as well. The other BS has heard the same pooh-poohing that the car is fine... it is in their head. The other BS is on life support as well. The other WS is also injured. Their car is in pretty bad shape as well.

Meanwhile the insurance adjuster (attorney, other friends or family members etc.) shows up and tells you they are trying to determine whether or not to total the cars or to send them to the auto body repair shops for a complete overhaul. He isn't sure whether they can fix either car of both cars will have to be totaled and new cars will have to be purchased. Either way, if the cars are totaled or new cars will have to be purchased, because neither of the cars were new... it is going to cost you a lot out of pocket to replace or repair the cars.


Subsequently, both BS spends time in the hospital, unclear if they will actually survive or not initially. Slowly over time, the BS's begins to make some progress. You can now get out of bed... start to walk, eat, etc. They are transferred to different rehab. facilities.

Both of the BS's at this point have shared while in the hospital with each other that they each had this nagging sense that there was something wrong with their cars but had been told it was nothing. And now here they both are in the hospital with massive injuries. They aren't mad yet... they are still in a state of shock and wondering if they will make a full recovery. They have yet to fully realize that both of the WS's were taking these cars out and drag racing them. Both of the WS's were harming the cars on a regular basis and they didn't do anything to repair any of the damage they were causing to the car... because all they could think about was the excitement they felt while they were racing.

The BS's had NO idea the cars were being recklessly raced time after time, and that the brakes on both of these cars were being damaged with each race. The WS's are thinking... well the cars are both still running so they're alright. They may complain to the other WS about how much they DESERVE (entitlement) a new car. They commiserate (blame the BS's etc.) about how long they have been stuck with these cars and blah, blah, blah, how the car just isn't like it was when they bought it. It is possible that the BS's have also had feelings of disappointment about the car as well. However the BS's have not chosen to drag race the car unknowingly to the WS.

They may have known the car had some problems... remember they have noticed something seems off with the cars. They may have even mentioned they believe the car needs maintenance. The BS may have also not chosen to do any maintenance on the car, but they have NOT chosen to do things that they know will harm the car worse. IN other words they might not have had some of the work done on the car; they for sure have NOT been drag racing knowing THAT would surely damage the car possibly beyond repair.

While they are still hooked up to life support they are told that the WS's have been drag racing. They are shocked to learn this. They are devastated to learn that their WS's would be so reckless... putting the cars and their own lives in such risk. At first they may not even be angry. The shock and despair of learning about the racing is overwhelming and they are so focused on survival at this point they aren't yet able to focus on the mangled car.

The WS's have been treated for what appear to be minor injuries. They sat in the waiting rooms. They may or may not be consumed with a feeling of guilt and shame knowing that their racing has nearly killed their BS's. They are still in the fog over the fun they were having racing the cars. The doctors overhear them in the waiting room and are blown away by the lack of respect and concern either of the WS's seem to have for their broken BS's. The doctors (MC, MB, Friends of the M etc.) have seen this kind of car accident before. They know leaving the BS's together in the same hospital for the long term recovery, with their WS's sitting out in the waiting room is not the solution for any of these patients to recover makes the decision to go into to BS's separate hospital rooms. He asks the WS's of each couple to join him as he discuss the recovery treatment options for the BS.

The doctor tells the couples under NO circumstance will the BS ever be able to recover if the WS's sit out in the waiting room together. They MUST be transferred to different hospitals for long term rehabilitation. He tells the WS under no circumstance should they EVER talk to the other WS again. Their reckless driving is what put their BS in the hospital and if the BS is to make progress in rehab. that the WS must make a choice. The choice is to either commit to assist in the BS recovery or to sever all ties to the BS so that they can attempt to recover solo. If their choice is to try to work through the recovery with the BS they can never speak to the OP who they recklessly raced with. Even if the car can be repaired, any future drag racing will so further damage the mangled car, it will make the chance of ever repairing the car virtually impossible.

The doctor also asks the BS if they want the WS to support the effort of their rehab. or the car repair. At this point some BS's decide yes, they want the WS still and they want to try to repair the car. Some BS's decide NO way. Knowing the WS was so incredibly reckless they don't want any part of the WS in either their personal rehab. and they don't want to repair the car. They want to scrap the car and never look back.

In this case, you the BS and your WS make the decision to try to fix the car and rehab. the BS. The doctor tells them they must notify the OP that they will never speak to them again. The BS has no problem with the notion of NC. The WS may have some mixed emotions about it. Although the WS may have decided that they do in fact want to try to fix the car and support the BS's rehab. the WS may still have some lingering feelings about how much "fun" the racing had been. Not exactly easy for the BS to swallow since they still having some pretty serious injuries.

SO they transfer out. They notify the OP of NC. They begin the process of personal rehab. as well as working with the car repair shop (MC) on the huge task of step by step, piece by piece, repairing each part of the mangled car.

They go through this process for awhile... say 6-8 months. The BS has felt grateful that the WS has decided to work on the car. The process is a lot of work. Both the BS and the WS have had moments of excitement as parts of the car begin to look better. Then suddenly... and perhaps without warning the BS, who had up to this point mostly felt gratitude, is hit with the knowledge that the racing itself is what caused the most collateral damage to the car. They hit a wall in recovery. The anger that has been buried under other emotions of sadness, relief, terror, etc. swells up in them and has taken the front seat.

The anger consumes the BS and the anger is directed at the WS for putting their car and them in this position. Kinda hard to look at the infidelity as a gift. It may appear that all the work they have done so far was just a band aid and some duct tape. The BS might be surprised themself about the degree to which the anger has swelled. They may have thought the anger wasn't there before so why now? The truth is the anger was always there. Might have been below the surface of the fear, but it was there. This is probably the most difficult part of the recovery process because now the BS may be questioning their own choice to try to repair the car at all.

The WS's response to the anger is also relevant. If they don't appear to feel remorseful about the racing, accept that the racing caused that much damage to the car... that they not only gaslighted the BS into believing the car's brakes were okay when they knew full well they had been racing and damaging the brakes with little or no regard for the damage it was causing. If the WS doesn't take culpability for their destruction this will greatly hinder any chance of moving past this stage. This stage may be where the BS decides to chuck any further attempts to repair the car. If the WS doesn't own their choices here even if the BS choices to stay anyway... the repair will remain stalled. The car may be running at this point but if no serious work is done here, the car remains at risk for future breakdowns and accidents.

If the couple has taken their car to a really good repair shop (MC) the repairman has seen this many times before and knows what tools he must use to help the couple get through this stage of anger. An inexperienced or not very good repairman may have little success in helping the couple through this stage because they don't have the necessary tools to work on the problem.

If the couple is able to get passed this stage of anger in recovery... they believe the car is worth repairing, and are willing to continue with the repairs, the chances are good that the car and both parties will recover.

Depending on how much repressed anger is there, will also determine how long this stage may take. The WS may also feel like giving up here too. The WS may begin to believe that nothing they do will ever be enough to repair the damage they have done. The WS may also decide they no longer wish to try to repair the car at this point.

To me, this stage is very critical in the recovery process. If the couple stays together and does not get through this stage... their M is still a really painful or not so great place to be, or if they choose to divorce at this point it is going to be really hard to see any gift in this.

If and when the couple does get past this stage... they get to the heart of the issues before the racing, before the accident, this may be when either member of the couple may choose to see the accident as a gift. I can very much understand why many do NOT see it this way. I can see and I am sure you can as well, where many BS's might feel like the repairs could have been done without the racing or the accident. In other words there is NO seeing the affair as a gift. There are some people though, that at this point take a different perspective... they choose to believe this is what it had to take for either one of them to really be willing to work on the marriage. In these cases some couples may view the affair as a turning point in their marriage. The point where they believe the M after an overhaul is a much closer and more fulfilling one. But getting to this point takes a long time in the recovery process... and even then it may be a very bitter pill to swallow or see the infidelity as a gift.

I am sorry you were attacked for sharing what you might have seen on the recovery board or elsewhere here... that many people's M's are in better shape post infidelity than they were prior to it. For me, my DH's affair was what it took for us... and granted it was not something I would wish on my worst enemy. My own recovery process is different than others because we had the stain of prior infidelity taken all the way into an affair marriage to deal with on top of it. I got the added shame and guilt of knowing my own choices were NO gift to my H's XW or my own XH. They were innocent victims.

In my case being on the receiving end of infidelity was what it took for me to really GET what I had done.

Recently when my DH was home sick with DD also sick with the flu... made a call to me on my cell phone when I was later than usual getting home from work. DH was feeling especially vulnerable because he wasn't feeling well and he shared later when I got home that his fear was really high. Fear that I might meet someone else, choose to leave our M. The floodgates of his own remorse over his choices flew open and I could see how much he is still hurting over his own shame and guilt about his choices to commit adultery.

And this is what I shared with DH then. I shared with him that I am not now nor will I ever choose to go outside our M to get my needs met... that the fear that this could happen on both of our parts is just one of the many consequences that are a part of being in an affair based marriage. Since the foundation was originally based in lies and deception that some fear will probably always remain that IT could happen again. Does this mean that we spend every minute for the rest of our lives constantly living in a state of paranoia? No... that would be very unhealthy. But it would be just as unhealthy to stuff those fears and pretend they don't exist for either of us.

We have to keep working at our recovery. We choose to continue to work at it.

You didn't do anything wrong... you stated your opinion about the concept of a gift. Others can and will disagree. Doesn't make your opinion any less valid. Doesn't make their opinion about it any less valid either. I think perhaps the attacking comes from some people's belief that you cannot possibly understand how painful it is to be a BS. While it is true that you do not know what it feels like to be a BS... doesn't mean you don't have any understanding of what it feels like to be in a depressed state about the state of your own M.

I think you are very clear on what that feels like. I also wonder if there is a part of you that feels like your M needs to hit a crisis in order for your own H to get on board and work to improve your M. I know you mentioned before that a part of you wishes that your H would have an A so that you would feel justified in leaving your M. Cat, I promise you... you don't want this, but I can understand your desire for you H to wake-up and realize how unhappy you really are about the state of your own M.

I have heard a few people (not very many) people who have stated that they were relieved to find out their partner was cheating because then they felt they could leave the M without having to feel remorse about their choice to do so. I think this might be what is termed an exit affair. Cat, even if your M ends at some point (and I really do believe that based on the huge changes you have made... that your own M is going to thrive sooner than later) that an A on the part of your H will leave you a lot more harmed than you may think.

What I have learned here... is that wherever you go there YOU are. Even if you were to get a divorce from Mr. Cat both of you would still have all of the unresolved FOO issues that you would carry into any future relationships. 30 years... Cat, that is not something to end without a huge fight to save. I strongly believe that the changes you are choosing to make, the work you are choosing to do on yourself, the dance steps you are working on your end to change... will result in an impact to your M that will be profound. Might not seem like you can see the light yet. I do believe there is light Cat, I really, really do.

I also hope that you will not be hesitant in the future to post your own beliefs, even when the differ from others, and even if people call you out on those, attack you, that your presence here is very valued and your insight and wisdom as someone who has been in a 30 year marriage are a huge contribution here.

Yes, there are many marriages here that are plagued with infidelity, but there are also many here that aren't. There are plenty of folks here whose marriages are riddled with issues that have nothing to do with infidelity and those people want to improve their M's too. You don't have to have a crisis to have an M that is in trouble.

What I see here are lots of different kinds of M's. M's that have infidelity in many different stages of recovery or a different kind of personal recovery... if the M is not recovered. I see first M's with other issues. I see second M's with lots of different kinds of baggage. I see people who didn't recover a first M that was hit with infidelity only to find they are again unhappy in a future M. There are even people here in third and fourth M's. I don't know what the answers are Cat, but what I do see is a whole host of different situations, and a bunch of people who are here asking for help and supporting others in their own marital and personal journeys towards some kind of healing.

I have never once found myself questioning your intent Cat... when you post something my belief is that your post was given to try to help... not harm. You cannot control how others will react to what you post. You know that already. The best you can do here when someone states you hurt their feelings or disagrees with you is to say you're sorry. I have seen nothing but grace on your end... grace and ownership in the acknowledgement that you can accept why someone else might have taken offense to something you said.

My own fear and I own that it is mine is that this attack will lead you to refrain from sharing where your insight is valuable. Where you will hold back... with a sense of self doubt about what you have to share. I really hope this will not be the case. I may not always agree with everything you say but I sure do respect and admire your willingness to share here. And I know I am NOT alone in my belief that you are an important member of this community.

((((Cat))))

I really hope that you know how very much you are worth.

Jilly

Thank you for your help, everyone. I wonder if I would have gotten so trashed if I had just used the word opportunity and rephrased the sentence? I was going to, but thought the word I used made more sense. Obviously I was not in a frame of mind to be posting that day. I didn't mind the upset over the word so much as the people afterward who patted me on the head and said 'don't worry, just think more, next time.' I may be too blunt when I write, but I am intentionally, usually, because usually no one else is. And I have a lot more knowledge of people and human nature and logic than many people here; so it grates to be told I'm simply dumber than them. So I'm wondering if I'm just too caustic and blunt to be here; maybe this place is - and should be - more about hand-holding and commiserating. I certainly know that I need it a lot.

Today is going to be better for me. Yesterday was filled with many passive/agressive snipes from H, and I found I simply don't know how to react to them, in any way that gets him to see what he's doing, or in a way that lets me not be affected. I think I'll have to work on that, specifically.

Hi, cat, this is a GREAT link that I got from Mulan's sig line. Really helpful dealing with the passive-agressive behaviors. There's an awesome PA thread in her sig line, too, when you feel stronger.

http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm

Last night, I had that problem with DH. He was asking questions like, "What did you do today?" "When are you starting that project?" He was barking the questions like a commander.

I had to point out to him that it was his tone that was bothering me. He said, "What?! I'm not asking anything wrong!" Same tone.

I looked at him and said, "If I used the tone you use with me with you, you'd think I was a b****." He got it. A bit.

I've always appreciated your point of view CP. I was surprised how the other posters couldn't just let a mistake go. It was obviously a trigger point for a lot of posters. But they didn't have to keep pounding the hammer long after you got the point. I found that strange.

Cat,

I dunno if it would have made a difference if you changed the word to opportunity... I really don't. Please know that what they did to you they will do to others. It was NOT about you.

My post to you here was not intended to make you feel worse and I hope it did not. I do NOT think you are dumb or insensitive. There are lots of other posters here (maybe more on the Infidelity board section of MB) that are straight shooters Cat.

Some of the same posters who came after you have no problem being BLUNT with other posters over there. Go over and read the SAME thread. Some offered up a different opinion and is getting the chewed up for it right now. I am actually surprised you got called on for being blunt, Cat, especially by some of the people that went after you considering that they are usually pretty blunt, and if anyone calls them out for anything they strongly defend their right to say whatever they want HOWEVER they want. Good grief that is what I call pot kettling.

If you want my honest opinion, I don't believe this was about YOU at all. If they can't get at the original "gift" idea poster because that poster has pretty much stopped posting... well then anyone who says anything that remotely reminds them of something that poster might say is at risk for attack. Cat know that there are a many people who communicate off this board by way of email. There are some that do the IM chat, and a select group that belong to another private board.

There are several locked threads over on GQ about my very existence on MB. Ever wonder why you don't see me posting very often on GQ? Use the search feature and search for any of the following threads... The treatment of justjilly on MB, JustJillyBeginAgain (you have to go to about page 18-20 of that 50 pg. thread to get see where that thread turns south) or Affair Marriage... The hill I must die on.

Remember the Salem Witch Trials... well that about sums up a lot of my experience on GQ. Anyone who was willing to risk trying to help me sort things out, well they were guilty by association and attacked for posting to me. This went on for months and months.

A special term was coined to describe my kind of marriage... "affairage". The Karma Bus had arrived and I got what I had coming to me. I can't really argue that point at all... since that is what it took for me to get it.

And there were those that decided for me what my restitution to my victims should be. Some believed that the only way I could truly show remorse was to divorce my current H.

Some believed I should try to return to my first husband after some 11 years at the time. He had been remarried and divorced again. About a year or two before I joined MB I learned that my XH had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. He was alcoholic when we were married. He later became addicted to meth, sometime either before or during his second M. He was eventually arrested and jailed for a short time. At some point he entered a rehab. treatment facility for his meth addiction. It was after that time that he was eventually diagnosed a paranoid schizophrenic. I was told here by one poster that my affair may very well have been the cause of his schizophrenia.

This is how I learned about gaslighting. When I began to question if it was possible that I in fact could have been responsible for his mental illness... even when I knew that he had a family history of this, even when I knew that chronic meth use can cause a meth induced form of schizophrenia... even when in retrospect I could look back at the time we were together, and realize that there were signs even then... early signs of paranoia, things that I dismissed then, chalked up to him having an eccentric personality.

I was 19 when I got together with my XH. We married when I was 25 and divorced when I was 26. I didn't know much about alcoholism then, had no idea alcoholics can and do go on what is termed "good" behavior. Had no clue what a dry drunk was. I knew even less about mental illness. We did not have any children together.

I don't say this to justify my choice to cheat on him. There is NO justification for that. It was wrong PERIOD.

I say this because I honestly could not believe that people would suggest that I get back together with him.

And my H's XW, well she had an A with a married coworker, got pregnant and had an OC. His marriage ended but she did not remain in a relationship with him. About 2 years ago, she began another A with a MM and she is now in the process of moving in with him. My DH has one child with her who lives with us.

I got really confused about what was mine to own and what wasn't. Was it mine to own that she had two A's because of me? People had a hard time believing that my H, his XW, and I have maintained a fairly close relationship. I can get why people would think that she would hate me... but for she doesn't. I have apologized to her numerous times over the years for our A as has my DH. She has told me many times over the years that she wanted to divorce my H prior to our A, and that the A was her ticket out of the M. There are people here that don't believe me about that either.

I dunno Cat, she has every reason in the world to hate me and to blame me for the demise of her M. She could hate me and it would make perfect sense to me. She could have been happy when she found out DH was cheating on me. She wasn't. She was a strong supporter of us trying to stay together and work it out. Perhaps it is because she is wayward herself. Perhaps if DH and I were to split up it would ruin her fantasy that an affair marriage can survive. Maybe she needs us to stay together in order to retain hope that her R with her AP (who is now D'd from his BW) will make it. I really don't know.

A little background about my H and his XW. Before my H and his XW got together they had both been in LTR's with other people. My DH's XGF repeatedly cheated on him. The last straw for him was when she slept with one of his good friends.

He met his XW about a month after he and his XGF broke up. About six weeks after they met, she was pregnant. A few months later they got married. A few months after that they both graduated from college. Neither one of them had a decent job and they had almost no money and a new baby. When DSS was a couple of months old they moved back to DH's hometown (where we all currently live) and his parents helped them financially. My DH's dad was able to pull some strings and get him a full time teaching position even though he did not possess a teaching credential at the time. So DH taught full time and went to college at night to complete his teaching credential. His XW worked part time at a low paying job on the nights that DH wasn't at school. A year later DH's XW began subbing and going to school at night to get her teaching credential. This is around the time I met DH.

I knew very little about the conditions that put people at risk for having an A. I had never cheated on anyone in my life and I honestly did not think I was the kind of person who would cheat. All it took was a huge sense of entitlement, a bona fide lack of respect, and an obvious lack of any decent boundaries in an M.

When I began to develop a crush on my H... then, the smart thing would have been to stop spending time with him, instead of spending more time with him commiserating about the problems in each of our M's... which of course like most classic waywards we magnified so that we could continue to justify our behavior. Yuck! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

And just because I didn't cheat in my current M did not make me unwayward. My DH and I were about as wayward as they come. I think the only clue I caught after my A, was about this particular boundary in an M... not because I understood anything about waywardness really either... only that I think I could connect the dots from A to B = C. I guess my DH didn't get that memo the first time around because when he found himself in a pretty similar situation in our M, with a female coworker opening up to him about her marital problems... he didn't get that he was treading in dangerous waters.

It isn't like our M was in good shape. How could it be... it was based on a foundation of lies and deceit? It came from both of us having some false belief that happiness is derived from another person. The notion that if you are unhappy that you just replace the person you are with with someone who holds the possibility of your happiness. What a load of crap that is.

It took me a long time here to get that I should NOT have been surprised when my DH began another A in our M. If you don't look at the conditions that led to an A, you don't realize there are good reasons to develop marital boundaries that follow the belief that it is not a good idea to have friends of the opposite sex that you confide in about your M. I was shocked when discovered my DH was cheating. I don't know why I was shocked. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> It makes sense to me now why he made that choice. I don't have to like it for it to make sense to me.

It wasn't as if I was meeting his EN's. Crimeny, I don't even think I knew what his EN's were. Then along comes the FOW in our situation, stroking DH's ego, giving him plenty of admiration and affection... with no developed sense of boundaries there really isn't any wonder about how it happened again. If you believe happiness comes externally from another person, and you feel entitled to be happy at any cost, then it follows that he would be attracted to the person who was stroking his ego... and it sure wasn't me.

So this is how I wound up here at MB about a month after my own D-day. I was a royal mess. And there wasn't a whole lot of hand holding for me here in the beginning either. And it isn't like I can't understand how I represent the worst case scenario... where the WS marries the OP.

What I learned when I got here... was just how "unspecial" I was. All the stupid soul mate crap I had believed for so long... well turns out it that is just typical wayward fog babble. People did not feel sorry for me they felt sorry for our kids. I was such an emotional wreck when I got here... still wayward and full of entitlement... still justifying my own affair and feeling much like the victim of my H's A. But it took what it took for me to really get the collateral damage.

It took me some time to get the difference between someone telling me the truth and picking on me. And it took me awhile to realize that my choices were mine... no one made me do anything. My A with my DH didn't just "happen". We chose our way into it one bad choice after another. And that it wasn't up to anyone here to decide whether or not my M was worth saving or not. Other people are entitled to their opinions about what they believe I should do. Other people are entitled to their belief that my M will never be a "real" M. That one person's belief about something doesn't make it "the" truth, that it makes it "their" truth.

Some people here gently guided me to look deeper and find both a higher power and my own power. FH and LA took some pretty hard hits for trying to assist me. They were told that they were supporters of affair marriage. There were countless debates about where or if I should be posting here at MB. The debate then became less about whether I had a "right" to post here and more about where I should be posting that would harm newly BS's less. I had a dog in that fight for a long time until I just pretty much was worn down to the point that I basically didn't have it in me anymore to fight against what that group of posters wanted. Eventually that battle zone thread was locked at the request of the person who originally started the thread for me. Several new threads were created for me in other forums outside of the Infidelity board, and especially GQ. here on MB. This was around April of last year. I continued to post some until the summer and then I took a MB posting hiatus for about 6 months.

I didn't begin posting again regularly until December. In the time I was not choosing to post... I still read. I read and I read and I read. Current threads, old threads, archived threads. And I learned a lot watching board wars. I witnessed how posters were targeted and attacked Cat and I learned people who will attack... who go that route aren't that picky about whom they'll choose to go after. Anyone is fair game and can become the target du jour. I saw where they went after their own... anyone who stepped out of the lock step lines. And where the troops came in with strategic support to discredit other posters.

I felt like I was taking a course in Subtext and Gaslighting 101. The infamous line of "Oh, I couldn't possibly know what you are talking about." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />Took me awhile to put together what caused an attack. An attack occurs anytime someone ventures out with an opinion that is different, anytime someone offers up any advice that doesn't align with a select group of posters' interpretation of the Harley materials. When I see long time posters who have been here many years, coached with the Harleys and then are told that they should not be advising anyone because there own marital recoveries are a sham... it just blows me away. How on earth does anyone here have the ability to determine whose M's are recovered and whose aren't. How can someone who has is unmarried who has chosen to end their relationship... determine under what conditions someone else's marriage is or is not okay. The only people capable of deciding who should continue in an M are the two people in that M. No one else knows what is or is not a livable or satisfying M for someone else. Just because some people's opinion might be that they wouldn't want THAT M doesn't mean the person whose M it is shouldn't have the ability to decide for themself.

It is one thing for someone to state an opinion that they wouldn't be okay with the conditions of someone else's M. Fine share your opinion but when you start berating another poster's choice to stay, I dunno it borders on abusive to me.

When I see people getting handed their [censored] in a sling for making apparent mistakes in their Plan A or Plan B or Plan D or Plan FU, I just keep thinking to myself yes, the people who are doling out the advice have been here a long time, they can foresee the pitfalls of these kinds of mistakes, but what I have a hard time swallowing is when they lose their sense of compassion for anyone who doesn't follow their advice to the T. When the barrage of DJ's start flying around and the poster is then told that they have just blown their chance of recovering their M, I am left wondering exactly HOW is this helpful? We are talking about humans being. People in different and varying degrees of shock, horror, disgust, anger, devastation, upheaval, fear, and a whole lot of pain.

While I strongly believe that Harley's plan for surviving an A... his conceptual Plans A and B make a whole lot of sense... I have also heard that when people counsel with the Harley's that sometimes the plans are altered slightly to meet that particular person's specific situation. It would be great if every person here could afford to counsel one on one with the Harleys but unfortunately there are people who just cannot afford that. Posters here no matter how much understanding they have of the Harley materials are NOT trained therapists and the advice they give is just that advice.

I often wonder why when you read the Harley materials, when you read what others who have shared what they have learned from counseling with the Harleys... why I don't ever hear about the Harleys using DJ's when counseling people. When I emailed Dr.Harley himself about my own situation I can tell you there was not one DJ about me, my DH or our affair driven marriage. He was radically honest with me about what it would take to recover my M, and specifically which of the concepts that seem to be the hardest for those in affair driven marriage to get into place. He didn't tell me there is NO hope that your marriage can be recovered. He did tell me if my DH and I were willing to do what he suggested that we in fact did have a chance of saving our M.

I don't know why Dr. Harley has chosen to assist those in affair driven marriage. He shared in his one post here to the public board that his success rate with those marriages has not been very high, yet for whatever reason, he still tries to help. He hasn't given up yet. He must have a reason for trying even if I don't know what that reason is.

Well, I have veered far off the point I was originally trying to make here Cat. My point was that you were attacked for sharing your opinion. Others came after you because they didn't agree with your word choice or for some other reason I could be very unclear about. What I wanted you to KNOW is that you were singled out and I don't think the singling out really had anything to do with YOU. You are bright and know a lot about a lot of things. You bring a lot here and your posting style is your own. You speak your truth honestly. You trust other people to be able to handle what you tell them. I don't see anywhere where your posts are just an onslaught of DJ's intended to hurt another poster's feelings.

Yes, Cat, sometimes people can feel reactionary to stuff other people say to them here but that doesn't mean that was said had some sort of malicious thought behind it... at least that is not what I see in you at ALL.

I think you do a great job of offering clueX4's which are quite different then bashing someone over the head with a baseball bat when they just don't seem to "get" it.

And I am fearful that this very post... here to you will put me at risk for an attack for stating my beliefs about what I have seen here in terms of board wars, gaslighting, subtexting, and blatant DJ's and harshly wielded 2x4's that appear to have no other intent than to make the poster in question feel bad. I am not talking the strategically placed 2x4 that is given to try to help someone really get something. I am sorry that you were the target of a public stoning Cat, I really am, but I truly hope it will not deter you from posting the same honest way you always have.

What if balance has to do with both Cat? I think there is room for both.

What I don't think is needed is out and out fighting amongst members for what appears to be just the sake of "winning" an argument and somehow proving they are right and the other person is just wrong, because I just don't find this kind of board war particularly helpful to anyone.

And please remember (I know you already know this) how powerful someone else becomes here has a lot to do with how much of our own power we are willing to hand over to them. I applaud you for you choice today to reclaim your own power.

Jilly

Thank you. I have saved it and will read it when I have more time.

Boy do I know about that tone. With MrCat it's also looks. Rolling eyes, sneer, and sighs. OMG, the sighs! And when you say anything, they just go, 'what? I'm not doing anything.' grrrr

jilly, thank you for the insight. It makes a big difference. I wonder whether I shouldn't have apologized and deleted, which made me more...target-worthy. I don't know. And at this point, I don't care to worry about it any more. The only thing that happens, at least for me, is it makes me have less respect for the people who felt qualified to cut me down. Their loss.

I wonder why ff is not getting raked over the coals as much as you were. Is it because her H is already here and people like him and feel for him, and you didn't have her support system? Just know that I respect you a lot! Your advice is always spot on, and I love you for it. So take that, you know who you are! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

One thing that you pointed out really struck me, something I, too, noticed. That Dr. Harley himself et al. is willing to bend the stated 'rules' when needed, and is willing to help people who so many say are unredeemable. One thing I don't tolerate well is intolerance, LOL, so when people have such hard and fast intolerance, it turns me off. I hope I never get that way, that I never find myself turning away from people just because they don't follow my line. btw, if I do that here, you guys feel free to let me know.

Anyway, thanks very much.

{{{ cat }}}

I wrote you a message but I put it on my thread.


Hear, hear.

That's why I don't venture into those waters very often - I "stick to the rivers and lakes" that I'm used to.

*sigh*

I see Ears is now the target de jour.

Helps to remind ourselves we are all at risk to be targeted. If you aren't lock step, you are at risk.

Ugh...

Jilly

Oh, Jilly, hon, I understand your concern. But you're among friends. I do think that the EN board is a safe place.

And thanks for bumping cat's thread! Cat, I need a dose of inspiration! Tell me what you did today that you feel good about, your bravery does me good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ears,

I do believe EN is safe... I just get so frustrated some times. I don't like the attacks that go on elsewhere and I don't want to start to worry that they'll track people down over here. I thought Cat made a great point about why that could not have been addressed on the other thread... why was there a need to bring it here?

You handled yourself with such grace and integrity Ears, grace under fire you were. Good job... I dunno if I could have done that well.

There is something YOU can proud of yourself for today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jilly

You're funny, Ears. I'm sitting here thinking of asking you what YOU have done, LOL. My D17's friend, who is gay and has been kicked out of his house half a dozen times (his dad doesn't like that he's gay), called her tonight and said he's getting an apartment with a friend, but it won't be ready for a few days and was wondering if he could stay here til it's ready. He's been hopping from house to house for a couple weeks, just so he could stay in school. I said of course, but then I looked at MrCat and asked him if it was ok with him. He said 'of course it's not ok!' So I tried to talk to him about it, told D17 to tell her friend that we would have to talk about it and let him know, but wouldn't have an answer til tomorrow.

In the meantime, MrCat does what he always does when he is 'confronted' and 'questioned' on his final word - he went to sleep. So I've been sitting here, trying to get up the courage to wake him up and try to talk to him about it.

My mother was always the person who let people in. It's one of the things that had the most effect on me, even when some of them turned out to be not so honest. She never turned anyone away.

So...sorry to let you down, but I'm sitting here in my own muddle.

fwiw, I'd like to step into the etherworld and find MR and beat him up for you, LOL. You never deserved the way he treated you. grrr I think you handled it with amazing grace. Much better than I could have ever done. {{{EO}}}

Cat - I'm not sure what went on on the other thread because I didn't read it. All I know is that from I've read on yours that I need to let you know how much I appreciate all you've done for me.

I've gotten caught up in my own situation and lost track of some of the others I'd been keeping up with. You've asked me some tough questions and held my feet to the fire many times. You've brought me back down to earth a few times and for that I'm very grateful.

I love the way you say it like it is with no sugar coating. I don't think everyone will always agree with everything anyeone says - that would be impossible and quite boring - but the things you've said to me have always made me think. That's what it's all about.

I'm sorry you've had a rough go lately. It seems to happen to all of us - good times followed by some down times. I do believe that you're on the right track and that very soon you'll have gained the courage and self respect to kick it into a higher gear. You're laying the groundwork now which is a very important part to making lasting change.

I agree with Jilly that you're going to end up saving this M and have a happy second half of your M. Mr Cat is a tough nut, but he does have many good qualities that make the effort worthwhile.

You are a wonderful person and I so admire your caring for others. As you learn more ways to be wonderful to yourself your life will continue to become what you want it to be.

I don't know much about marriage and you know that I am new to this site but I will offer you a prayer and some support. You sound like you have spent many years trying to make a happy home and keep the peace. After reading everything that you wrote and seeing that you are a writer, I have a question what do you write about and is it a release valve for you. My writing helps me deal with my day to day life. I also wanted to comment on something that you said about preparing for when your daughter leaves. I believe that marriage is sacred but after so many years of enduring for your daughters sake and trying to make it work for your family...you should prepare mentally and financially for yourself in case when your daughter is gone you do need to go even if it is only for a while to get some peace. The fact that he calls you so much and asks you to review his work tells me that he actually values your opinion and knows you are intelligent, his pride and his past just doesn't let him show it. I agree with the member who suggested that you tell him the neighbors noticed the mess in the garage. If he cleans for visitors that may make him clean out the garage because he wants to put on a good show. As for the mess of papers, I have started slowly shredding a few at a time..it is hard and scary but he never notices and I can see the clutter decreasing. Get your house clean for you, like you told me it is not all about him. You sound like you do your very best to make both he and your daughter happy and are very tired. I just wanted you to know that you have somebody out here who cares..Hope tomorrow is a better day.

{{{evi}}} bless you! I really needed that tonight! I know he respects and loves me, he just has bad life skills, which makes it hard for me to just walk away. But I, too, 'remove' a few things at a time from our house so that it doesn't get noticed. No other way to do it, is there? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well, y'all might as well get ready for some brouhaha tomorrow. I went over to ff's sight and tore into them for chewing out EO and graplin. The nerve of those people! I have to say, EO, I was NOT as polite as you have been. In fact, I was downright mean, I guess. Sometimes, I just get to where I've had enough of bullies and sanctimonious twits, and have to call them out. Tonight was not a good night for me to catch them dissing on graplin, who has been nothing but helpful IMO. As have you, EO. Jeez. I'm done being polite when it's not warranted.

I once waged a war with a preacher of a big Baptist church, via our local newspaper. I later found out he was having his flock - including my best friend! - pray for me, to see the error of my ways in questioning what he was doing (long story). But I'm a stubborn person. I generally give and give and give - UNTIL I see meanness. Then I dig in and wage war until that meanness is exposed - for everyone's sake who might be hurt by it. So I think I might have started something...wish me luck.

Cat, I wish you luck <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm sorry to hear about DD17's friend. I've gotta say, my H wouldn't let me touch a sitch like that with a 10 foot pole either. And then he would be like, "You've got to tell then that it's OUR decision instead of painting me out to be the bad guy like you always do." Then I steam because for a moment I think that I have to say what I'm told.

But here's what I like about MB, because I know I DON'T have to say what I'm told. "Hon, you tell her whatever you want, but you can't tell me what to say if I'm the one saying it. If you want to discuss it with me, then I can tell her that we discussed it and decided together. But we haven't done that yet."

And I do get run down that when there's tools like POJA why we're still so far from that. I mean, I understand that there's good reasons not to have someone in your house, just hear me out too, for crying out loud. There I go DJing again, just painful to think like that, about others' decisions, what's not in today; I've got to focus on the good stuff in today instead.

What did I do in my bravery today, cat? Why, I'm glad you asked <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> My coworker got mad at how I handled something, and told me that it wasn't okay, and I took her comment as about her instead of about me, and found the win-win solution for it myself. You see how good I do when I stop feeling bad about myself and think about the solution instead!

KLD, if you're around, I just wanted to say thanks. You've got so much more on your plate, so I really appreciate you taking the time, and the kind words.

I dipped my toe in ff this morning, just to see if I was getting torn to shreds, or if anyone might have understood just an inkling of the logic I was trying to impart, i.e., all the posters over there don't have to toe the line and just agree with what the 3 or 4 loudest posters say (or else!). Yeah, I'm being torn to shreds. That's cool. When I see people act that way, I lose all respect, so I don't need to go back. I did let ff know that MR followed someone to their own thread to chew them out (without naming names); just so she'll know that he would do something like that. It's the least I could do, since I'm not going back.

Update: MrCat actually talked to me last night about the friend thing! I could tell he was worried that I was mad at him, which is a strange feeling. So we talked very calmly and non-DJ, and he explained that it had nothing to do with the boy, who we both love, but that we had to leave our last home, our dream home, because of a rumor. He is so scared that someone who doesn't like D17 would twist his staying at our house into a rumor to destroy her, that it would ruin her remaining time here, just like at our last home. She has a couple of people who have decided to become her enemy, and would jump at the chance to bring her down.

If you don't know my story, my stepmother started a rumor that MrCat was abusive to D17, and by the time we moved it had morphed into him being a child molester and out on the hunt for more kids; by the time we moved, kids were coming up to D17 in school and asking her what we did to her; and she had only one friend left, because our neighbor made a point of 'warning' everyone to stay away from us.

That whole incident started because of a sleepover D17 attended, and MrCat didn't want her to stay an extra night, I said to let her, and during that stayover, the whole thing got started. So he said he has another gut instinct this time, and he doesn't want to ignore it like he did last time. I can't argue with that. So I told D17 our decision, and told her to make sure she tells the boy it's not about him, but about our fear of rumors. I also told her to tell him that once he gets into his apartment, we plan to help him out with groceries and other needs.

So MrCat was really nice to me this morning, the product of us having a productive, nonDJ talk and a little bit of closer relationship, and he was really nice to D17 when he talked to her about it on the way to school. So I think we all learned a little.

Yes! That is so true! That book I'm reading, Emotional Alchemy, is all about stepping outside your feelings, and analyzing them. That way, they don't lead you, you lead them. Cool stuff. Anyway, good work!

Wow, cat, that really ties in to what Telly was saying last week, too, about giving folks time to process. I'm glad that you all found the win-win there. Upward and onward <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(((Cat)))

I haven't read the thread, but I'll weigh in on this post.

So you ask him if something is OK, he says not it's not OK, and then he apparently is critiqued for expressing this opinion. If not to his face, then here.

You asked him, he answered, and you wanted to talk about it more.

I think I know why he goes to bed. Because you want to change his mind.

If you are really marriage building, then this comes under the category of POJA. He doesn't agree with the friend staying, and he, as a partner in the marriage is entitled to his opinion. If he doesn't want to discuss it, then he is also entitled to that, as the POJA says that you both have to be in agreement before doing something and that includes having conversations.

I wonder if the reason he doesn't want to talk is really because you frequently want to change him or change his mind about things.

Why would he keep having conversations if you try to change his mind all the time?

Frankly, if he's not comfortable with a teen boy staying in the home with you and your D17, then that should pretty much be the end of the conversation. There really isn't anything to talk about.

MrCat is not your mother, so it's not reasonable to expect that he would agree with doing things like your mother. He is MrCat.

I can ID with MrCat, since I was raised by a single mom, usually stayed at Granny's until I was in my teens. Learned to take care of myself and my younger sister. Other than $$$, I was pretty much self sufficient at 13.


OK, so he wants more attention and doesn't have a healthy way of expressing it. Can you pro-actively do something, like greet him when he arrives and invite him to join the homework party, or ask for his help, that may trigger something good in him. He may want to be ASKED. I like to help, but have been taught not to just jump in. So an invitation may be in order.

OK, so what is your plan to get over this? You cannot expect him to just know what you want, that your are not happy. This is all on you. It's not realistic to expect him to read your mind and just know that you are not happy.
This could be any number of things. Have you started with checking if this is a good time for a conversation? It may never be a good time for him. But still, it may be wise to ask if you can talk. Or at the very least, open with asking him what HE wants. The words men fear the most is, "We have to talk." because 99.44% of the time that means, "We have to talk about what you are doing wrong." This would be one of those examples because you are going to tell him that you want more, what he is doing or not doing is not cutting it for you, etc.

He probably fears confrontation as much as you do. I base this opinion on his ostrich like exits <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe he just doesn't like doing those sorts of things, and would rather do something else.

Well, everything probably is fine, from his perspective. Furthermore, you can't FORCE change. That's a love buster. Self esteem is SELF esteem. That means it's YOUR job to work on that. Not his. You cannot, nor should you lay that issue at his feet. If you try that, you are basically doing what you claim he does, avoid ownership of problems. Self esteem is 100% your issue. It's not spouse esteem, or family esteem. It's how you see yourself. Only you can change that.

I think you decide to view yourself as valuable. You don't look for value in how others see you. You find the value in yourself. As a man of faith, I see myself as valuable because I, like everyone else was created by God, to have a relationship first with God and then with the rest of His creation. I'm no more or less valuable than others. But I am valuable because God made me, made you, and everyone else too.

I believe that view provides a health personal view of worth, because it makes me valuable, but no more than anyone else, lest I become "entitled."

Thanks for coming to my thread! I always appreciate the gentle reminders of my part. And you're right. In the past, we have never negotiated anything. I said what I want, he says what he wants, we both pout, and we typically do things his way because I wasn't a strong enough person to fight for my side and because I didn't want him to start yelling at me for questioning him, which is typically the next step in our house. So we were basically at the point where we didn't discuss anything; we didn't know any better.

Now that I've been here, I've started incorporating better ways.

For one thing, last night I told D17 that MrCat and I had to discuss it later, because he had not heard the entire story yet; she was starting to tell him, but he just said no, shut down, and went to sleep. I used to DJ him for doing that, but I told her it would be a parent decision, and I'd let her know today.

And when we did talk about it, he expressed his opinion, and I agreed with him, and said so. And told D17 that we both agreed that the boy shouldn't stay.

I actually consider last night a pretty big success, considering our past dysfunctional methods. We both learned a better way to handle a disagreement. He came back to talk, and I listened and agreed with him. I refrained from our past poor methods, and got a better level of closeness from my H.

fwiw, when I brought up my mother, he replied that his mother did the same, and that he would love to welcome all the kids into our home, but he is so afraid of what people can do that he can't overcome it.

Good for you! That is such good progress CP! Round of applause!
I agree that something like that should be a joint decision. It's a big deal to bring someone else into your home, even for a little while. Good for you for wanting to be helpful but I think that your H might be right.
I'm sorry about your stepmother, that's just horrible.

You're right that he wants to be greeted when he gets home. I've been making a special effort to do this, even though I don't want to. He makes almost no effort to acknowlege me, so my resentment has kicked in big time the last few years, so I stopped 'welcoming' him, but I've been trying to make sure I do it now. As for housework, I've asked every way I can think of. I've generally discussed things that need done, I've point blank asked ('will you replace the battery in the alarm?'), I've said what I'm going to be doing and asked if he could help, I've talked about how bad I feel that there are so many things I want to do but am not skilled enough (shaving off the bottom of a door, etc.), I've tried writing out a list of things and both handing it to him and asking him to help me out by handling anything he would like to help with and I've left it out on the counter either with no mention of it or mentioning it in passing ('I left a list of things I'd like to get done; maybe there's something on there you'd be better at than me'). I've asked him to take on just one chore - anything he wants - so that it would free up me to get some other things done - he refused and said he can't do any chores, never knows when he's going to be home to do them. That said, now that I've tried incorporating MB and have been more giving to him, he has actually agreed to help me on 2 or 3 occasions; he ended up doing something other than what I asked, but at least he got up off the couch and helped, so I'm not complaining.

A few years ago, when I was suicidal, I told him all about my going to therapy, how it's based on my self-esteem and even told him that I was afraid of him because his response to everything is to get angry; he went to a couple therapy sessions with me but stormed out when the lady said that she needed to see him separately before we could continue. He knows I was on AD, was suicidal, and yet he asked me to stop taking the ADs, fearing (he said) that our friends and family would think it was his fault. And yes, I stopped taking them, to please him. And he has never brought up the issue since. (I'm currently in the process of getting back on.)

I can't even get him to talk about planning a vacation; every time I have ever asked him to talk - about anything, he says 'I can't' or 'I can't deal with it right now.' IC says it's his depression talking.

I distinctly remember my mother telling me that no one on this earth is better than me, but that I wasn't any better than anyone else, either. I think only the second half stuck. I have such a low self-worth that I feel guilty pulling into a close-in parking spot at work that someone else has emptied, thinking they will come back and think 'who does she think she is?' That pretty much describes me. My IC is trying to help me get through that, but it is tough to get past 50 years of deferring to everyone else in my life. Even my daughter; I used to love to eat watermelon, and when she was born and started eating it, I stopped saving part of it for me, saved it all for her. My life is full of those sacrifices, which I guess go back to my childhood where I learned that I would get praise or attention by being selfless. That's hard stuff to get over, thinking everyone deserves more than you.

Thanks for bringing up these questions; it's been helpful to reassess.

Catperson, were you raised in a religious family? I have this gut feeling that you're trying to be a saint. (:
I know what you mean about saving things for your daughter. It's ok to do that, isn't it? But in general in life, YOU deserve good things sometimes too.

You know the other options? One is make a "to do" jar and put in pieces of paper with all the jobs that need to be done. Every weekend you each take out a piece and do what's on it.

Or, do you have any friends or family who are handy? Preferably men? Or do you have any money you could spend on hiring someone to do some of the little things? There are lots of things I couldn't get my H to do until I started asking male friends (of both of us)about it or if they could help me. Suddenly he was superman. hee.

The last thing is to ask yourself how you really feel about home ownership. I know this is probably odd in this society, but I am to the point where I don't even value home ownership anymore. I know, it's equity and all of that, but it's not worth it to me to have all this stress in our lives. I'd rather call someone else and have them take care of it.

When he says "I can't think about it right now", that reminds me of my H. He has trouble making decisions, and feels pressured when I ask him anything about the future. It's very frustrating. He always has an excuse too.

Thanks for sharing all of this, it makes me feel like I'm not the only one.

Great point. Home ownership is not for everyone. Like the old saying, "Home is where the heart is." As for ownership, you can own things, including real estate, without living in them. If the stress of owning a home outweighs the pleasure, why bother?

It reminds me of Wayne Dyer talking about his lack of being handy. He said if he had an Indian name it would be "He who writes checks." I heard someone else say he had one thing in his toolbox, and it was a phone.

I sometimes trade out skill for skill. I traded some painting for babysitting. I traded some carpentry for taking care of dogs while the owner was out of town.

We have a home because MrCat was so poor that he dug in dumpsters behind restaurants to find half-bad food for his family to eat, and scooped up rice that fell from the trains. His dad had him up on roofs roofing with him (for no pay) when he was 5. All he knows is poverty and work. For him, trading up in houses is his self-expression. He had his first house at 19, working 3 jobs to pay for it.

He stayed with one company (in sales) for 24 years, and gave up getting a degree cos he's not much of a student, and dyslexic. So when he got laid off, he spent the next 3 years in a funk, crummy jobs, used up all our savings, college money, and ran up over $50,000 in credit card debt.

Add that to the rumor thing, which was all about him and his image in society, I'm surprised he's still alive. So, while he worked his rear end off fixing the first house, the second and third houses we've been in have suffered from his depression, which he won't acknowledge.

btw, I've tried hiring people; he gets mad because it's insulting him, and he runs the people off or humiliates them. However, I DID tell him this week that I am going to get the house organized enough so that I could hire in a housekeeper. He didn't say anything. That's progress.

{{CP}} (Small hug, don't want to presume, but I feel your pain)

C.S. Lewis says that the worst sin is pride. He doesn't want to do the work, doesn't want anyone else to do it either. No wonder you are frustrated!

This getting the house organized to hire a housekeeper must be an XX thing. If you get a chance, look at my post on housekeeping and communication in Resolving Conflict.

That just makes me so sad reading about your H's past. He sounds so proud and stubborn too.
I'm really starting to get what you are talking about when you say that he has to have his way all the time.
In the past have you ever had an instance when you've tried to stand up for yourself? What was his response?

We've never had a good way of working things out, so no, I don't remember standing up for myself. I do remember several instances where I tried, but 'lost.' For instance, one year my mom and brother wanted us to go up to Ohio to visit our family with them, and I got him to sign off on it, only to have him say at the last minute he didn't 'see' how we could go, we had too much to do, we didn't have the money. So I made up an excuse on why I couldn't go, and they went without us. He promised we would go later; we never did. I never saw my Ohio family again, since D17 was 1.

There was one time my dad and stepmother wanted me to go to help them work on a beach house they were building. I stood up to H, who didn't want to go. So I went, he stayed, and he worked on our garage; during which time he tried to hold up a beam by himself, it fell on him, and every time we fight ever since (25 years ago), he brings up my selfishness and how I 'always' go 'gallivanting around'. So I don't consider that one getting my way, cos I've been paying for it for 25 years.

I think it was star or pieta - can't remember which who said they handle chores that they'd like their husbands to do by just starting the chore themselves. Usually the husband comes around to correct you by doing it himself. (Sorry guys)

I mentioned this to my mother, and I can distinctly remember telling her "but then he'll yell and curse."

My mother said "So what. At least it will get done."

The way I see things is that if you were single, you'd have to do those things anyway - many of them on a limited income and by yourself or with a capable child's help.

So...why can't you and your DD try and get that door off it's hinges, place it across something, and have her stabilize it while you shave off the bottom sometime? You have access to the internet. I'll bet there is a tutorial on one of the home improvement sites on how to use a plane safely.

I really think that taking the initiative on some of these things would bolster your self esteem and make you (and he) realize that you're capable of handling a lot more than you thought.

Frankly, I think your husband is too comfortable in the knowledge that you're afraid to do things without him. Maybe he looks at it as marriage security, as odd as that sounds.

I agree with soolee. It's not so hard to plane a door. Just get a pair of saw horses, a plane, masking tape and sandpaper to clean it up a bit.

I like to tape around the door to minimize and chipping on the edges. So if you were going to plane the bottom, run tape around the front and back of the door. (Not on the surface you are planing, but the faces perpendicular to that surface)

(or if you're like me, if you were single you'd have a landlord doing things for you....) ha.

CP, your H just sounds so controlling and like he just doesn't care about your feelings a lot of the time. My H is the same way about family, he just doesn't get why it's important to me. But I have just decided to make my plans and do what I want to do.

One thing I did want to say is that just because your H thinks something is true, that doesn't make it true. Just because his perception is that it's your fault that the beam fell on him doesn't make it true. And it doesn't mean that you have to agree with him assessment or live by his perceptions or his way of thinking.

It's pretty common for abusers to have no boundaries between themselves and other people, and to blame other people for their own misfortunes in bizarre ways. My father used to do the same thing to me. For instance if he went to the window to yell at me about something and happened to break the vent cover in the process, that was my fault.
If he got a speeding ticket while driving somewhere to buy me shoes, that was my fault. If my brother kicked a hole in the wall because he was mad at me, that was my fault.

I hope that you don't internalize your H's feelings that you are an extension of him and responsible for him and everything that happens to him. I'm wondering what would happen in the future if he said something indicating that the beam falling on him was your fault, and you said something very calmly such as "I understand that you think that is my fault, but I refuse to take responsibility for it, and it's not acceptable for you to talk to me that way about it." End of story.

You guys are all correct, I know. All of this is logical. I was raised not to have a say, so it's a really hard pattern to overcome, even when I'm standing there, thinking it out logically. That's my fear speaking, and my inherent belief that I don't count as much as other people. You know what you're suppoed to do but, like your mom, she figures out ways to get what she wants with the least conflict. And that was me that said I'd start a project so he would finish. But then I have to hear about it for days, so you have to weigh on whether it's worth it.

I agree, though, and that's what I've been working on these last few month, what I've been getting by coming here - the confidence, the knowledge that there are so many people out there in the same shoes. It does help.

Cat,

How are you practicing (reinforcing) your new choice to believe you're equal and whole (like everybody else)? That there isn't a thing wrong with you...God doesn't make no junk?

Even not loving or respecting yourself doesn't make you less than or more than anyone else. And yeah, it's incredible how many shoes out there fit my feet, too.

Seems to me we live in great fear of not being loved...and yet, a greater fear may lurk behind that one...that we already are.

LA

How am I practicing it? Well, I told MrCat I didn't want to go with him and D17 when they went horseback riding - even though I got the expected scowl and prickly response from him. I went upstairs to help D17 clean her room and didn't offer to mow the yard when MrCat was ready to do the yard. Maybe a couple little things like that.

I realized the other day why I'm so...pushed. One day we were working on the yard, and I had sent D17 upstairs to clean her closet, and MrCat asked what she was doing. That may sound weird, but given our background, what that means is that he has this belief that if you're not working, you're lazy and selfish. He has been pushing that on me our whole lives together. Any time he would see me sitting down and reading or doing needlepoint or whatever, he would criticize me for not getting something done. There was always something that needed doing. That was the excuse he used early on, when I wanted to go visit my mom in another town, that we didn't have any spare time, too much to do, couldn't spare the time to go visit her. I bought into it because I didn't want to get criticized. So now I realized that he was incorporating that into D17's life, too.

So I've been aware of that, and determined to make sure that doesn't continue. And that I will start changing my own life, to not be in that trap any more. It's stupid.

It might have been a way for his family to survive poverty, but you guys don't need to live that way now. Anyway, didn't you say he'll sit on the couch for hours while you're outside working? So it's ok for him to do that but not for you and your D?

I also think that you're taking what he says literally at face value. Or are you? Do you really think that he didnt' want you to go to your mom's because he didn't think you should take the time, or was it because he's afraid of being alone and doesn't really value your relationships with other people?

I wish there were some way to just implant into your brain how valuable you are. I really do wish I could give that to you.
One thing I wanted to say, I don't know if this speaks to you at all, but just had to put it out there. I started to do yoga about ten years ago and learned a lot about Hindu and Buddhist beliefs in the process.
Over and over, I read about yoga teachers from India who would come to the west and were absolutely shocked at how many people have such low opinoins of themselves. One teacher said one day he had had interviews with a lot of the people at a retreat he was teaching, and he was just overcome with sadness at how we devalue ourselves he just started sobbing.

I think that our culture teaches people to be either overly selfish and egotistical, or to completely be selfless to the point where we don't even feel like we have the right to exist. You have the right to exist because you're here, you were born, every human is important. You're worth so much because you're a woman, a mother, and a wife. Even if you were just you on your own, you would still be so valuable. Just because!

Cat, LA asked me if I was trying to control H's reactions by "Going along to get along." Gosh darnit, after all this time, I found I was! I don't want to think that my H is someone who mistreats people. I don't want to think that I would be living a life with a man who would mistreat me. I don't want to think that I would make my kids live with someone who would mistreat us. And I don't want my kids to take that example and think that it's okay to mistreat folks. You see how I fell back into denial, by accepting the false payoff of thinking we were functioning well together.

I like how Myschae says that if you hold to your boundaries, and the person gets nasty, well that's Good To Know!

I'm so happy to see that we are making different choices, this week, and we can handle it!

glad nto hear that you made a breakthrough by telling him you'd discuss something later. It gives both of you time to settle down and then listen to each other. I think listening and really trying to listen not just hear and think of the next thing you want to say is very hard for everyone. Congats on the breakthrough...you are my inspiration to keep trying. Have a good weekend

Cat, you've got mail <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, I decided to follow the concept of start doing a project and he'll feel compelled to step in. I first asked what he had planned yesterday morning, then I asked him to help me move the kitchen table so I could mop the floor (which, sad to say, had only been thoroughly mopped twice in the last five years; but that's how we live). Saturday, two different neighbors had reason to come into our filthy house, and I decided I'm tired of being mortified when people see how we really live. After the first person came over, MrCat decided to shampoo the carpet downstairs. Of course, that was also because he neglected to tell me that he had invited one of his coworkers over for dinner! Thank goodness that by the time H called the man, he was gone, other plans, cos I was at the point where I was ready to tell him 'the next time you invite someone over without giving me a day's notice you're sleeping on the couch.' Actually, that probably would have been a good exercise in standing up for myself, huh?

Anyway, he helped me move the table Sunday morning, and the next thing you know, he's cleaning all the windows in the kitchen inside and outside (I had removed the curtains to wash them for the first time - and I shrunk them! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />...); then he's cleaning some of the walls; then he's cleaning the floor with the new shampooer I bought him for Christmas.

I'm going to say that it's because I helped him work on the stupid river in the forest behind our house Saturday morning, and he was helping me to repay the favor. But 30 years tells me it's because he 'knew' he could do a better job cleaning the floor than me. I guess so, it took him 8 hours!

But, help is help! I'll take it.

Took him to the airport this morning, will be gone til Saturday. (sigh of relief)

Wow, Cat, that is really cool, how you guys are working together to get the house back how you both like it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Is it symbolic of how you all are working together to help DD17, too?

I heard you touch on perfectionism, how your H thinks something should be done a certain way, or leave it alone. I'm glad that you didn't let that get in your way. We'd rather have shrunk curtains than be afraid to try <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, the good thing is now I get to buy good curtains, instead of the cheapest I could afford at the time 4 years ago. I actually ended up buying cloth shower curtains, because they were exactly the right size for the windows (72x72) so I didn't have to hem them. I really liked them, but they were getting faded because I ended up not being able to afford the shades I was going to put up behind them, and they weren't designed for sunlight. So now, with my newfound outspokenness, I'm going to see if MrCat will pay for shades AND curtains, since I still have no money.

Oh, forgot to mention that Saturday, MrCat edged the yard, but I went out and started pulling weeds and planting flowers, and when it came time to mow the yard, I just kept on weeding, and H ended up mowing (typically my job). Which is fine with me, since he often comments on me not doing it right. So one less opportunity I'm putting myself in to get criticized. I figure the fewer times I get criticized, the better chance of building up my self-esteem.

Not saying the weekend went smoothly, we had a few instances where I got criticized, things went wrong and it was all my fault, etc. But I tried really hard to keep telling myself it wasn't about me. I don't know if that will ever come easily.

Cat, I love how you reframed the curtain situation <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry to hear that your H is still critical of you. Good for you, for remembering that it's not about you! Do you have Love Without hurt by Steven Stosny? He has a quick 4 step process when you feel a drop in core value to get it right back up. So in effect, over time, the verbal abuse triggers you to rebuild yourself instead of letting it tear you down.

Catperson, for some reason that river idea just cracks me up everytime you mention it.
I'm glad that he's helping you! I hope you get some rest while he's gone, too.

Cat, I'm sorry to hear that things went poorly this morning. Just an idea, maybe he was mad beause he didn't do the thing on purpose as a passive aggressive swipe at them, and you didn't back him on it. In fact, you chose their perspective on the things priority instead of theirs. I don't know, and I know speculating's a risky game, just wanted to point out what jumped out at me.

Anyhow, I heard at Alanon that if you do something for someone that they didn't ask you to do, THAT's enabling. And if you do somehting for someone that they can do for themselves, THAT's enabling. But I don't know whether those ideas are relevant to you. Cat, have you read Dr. Harley's article about how the codepency move ment is ruining marriages? I think his point was that things that are kind and helpful in a healthy home are adding fuel to the fire in an unhealthy one, so you've got to know what you're dealing with and use the right tools. Do you think that you have codependency issues that add to the dysfunction, or do you feel confident that you have a healthy interdependence.

Cat, I like to think that you are creating a healthy marriage, and that those things that you did this morning were nice and healthy. But I don't live with you, so I'm asking what do you think.

I read the article. I don't have anything near a healthy interdependence, because we are all about propping H up. For instance, when we had our one joint IC session (for D17), I felt the need to go in ahead of time and warn IC about how H was likely to blow up at her and leave if she tried to steer the meeting to being about him, just as he had done the one time he ever went to MC with me. D17 and I spend a large amount of time propping him up and protecting him from his actions. She knows it's wrong, and just last night I told her I was trying to pull back from that, which is why this latest fiasco happened - I didn't take care of it initially.

Recap: He works for an electronic company. Our activities committee needed a door prize for an event; he offered to get a TV at cost. Lady in charge, works for our management company, says he needs to get his company to fill out a tax form, she'll email it to him. He agrees. She does, but the form was wrong. He never opened it in the first place; 2 weeks later, no tv, she's ragging on me to get him to get the tv; I tell her to call him, he doesn't return her calls (when he's at work, he's too busy to deal with non-work things - his words). I finally go in his emails, as the event is coming up and no tv, print out the form, HAND it to him, he takes it to work, it won't work, so he tells me it won't work. I tell him to call Lady. He doesn't. One week til event, no door prize. He blames Lady for sending wrong form, no attempt to call her or take care of it. She's calling me cos he won't answer his phone. In the car, I call her, hand him the phone, he tells her she can drive over to his company and use the Mgmt company's credit card or she can send another form. She sends the form, doesn't want to drive. He still doesn't open her email. I open it, print it out again, hand it to him AGAIN. The day before the event, I show up at his work, and he asks his boss, the owner, if he can just take the tv and pay for it Monday, boss agrees. Event over. H still didn't get form filled out. 2 weeks later, his accountant is ragging on him. He says the Lady should have taken steps to get it paid for, even though she thinks she's waiting for him to give her the form). We have an activities meeting last Monday, he brings the form filled out, gives to Lady. By now his accountant is sending emails, and he is cussing out Mgmt co. Lady for not driving her 'fat [censored]' over to his company and taking care of it, when he had said he would do it. Every time he brings it up, I say all you had to do was fill out the form and fax it to them. I've given you the fax number twice. No, it's all her fault. So I meet the Lady yesterday to get the check from her and tell him this morning that I'm going to go to his company (on my lunch break) to give them the check since he's out of town. Instead of thanking me, he starts ragging on Lady, being fat, being lazy, making him look bad at his company, not knowing what she's doing. And he gets mad at me for defending her and saying he could have just faxed the form weeks ago.

Lots of issues here, including his hatred of women (he never calls men fat or ugly); his continued inability to follow up on anything - he does this with everything we're involved in, never follows through and then people ask me to talk to him; his immediate need to blame everything on everyone but himself; his need to be the victim in every situation. It's not that he didn't take care of it on purpose; he just never follows through. He's the most disorganized person in the world, refuses to use a calendar, can't even remember standing appointments like D17's weekly drums lessons (calls me every single Monday asking where we are); is constantly late for every meeting, bills, etc.

We just live in a constant state of chaos. I used to try to control it somewhat, just for my own sanity. But between me wanting to pull back on my enabling, and my depression, it's all just falling apart. I swear, if I wasn't $50,000 in debt, I'd just leave.