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Jayne, thanks for the hugs! I do feel very safe with you all. There is room for a lot of opinions here. Cat, ITA with what Telly is saying, that you making or not making an apology today is nowhere near as significant as the changes that you are making, deciding and trying out something new here, stopping doing things that you're not enthusiastic about. And jayne, ITA that giving her H a heads-up about it if and when she thinks about it is great, too.

And cat, I'm really looking forward to hearing your response to LA's post. Do you feel like you'd like to be less relied-on in your marriage? Like you could stop doing the stuff that you don't like, and your H it wouldn't feel like such a huge deal?

*Group hug*


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LOL, is that what she said? I didn't get that at all...

But sure, I'd like to be relied on less. Here I am trying to schedule another vacation cos H won't do it; I miss when he would take care of things like that. I suppose I should tell him that. But he's so wound up in work any more, he rarely stops thinking about it, and he even more rarely interrupts it for anything else. So I take on more and more of our duties. I even take the trash out when he forgets. And that and mowing were the only chores he ever accepted.

Things seem to be turning around at his work, so I'm hoping that if it works out, he'll relax and I may get the old husband back. Plus, I'm working on me, so we'll meet somewhere in the middle I suppose.

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That's what I got out of the wanting to be invisable. Like, having the freedom to choose what you'd like to do, without being hollered at that you're not standing next to him. Without needing to remind him about stuff. An ability to live separate and equal.

Cat, sharing my filter with you, in Alanon, we are trying to move relationships from parent/child to equal partners. The alcoholic may drink to escape responsibility. As a way of going back to the child role, being cared for. Like the alcoholic mother, whose daughter picks her up from the bar when she can't drive home. I wonder if your H may be taking on this role, the workaholic. Oh, cat, my work is so bad, I'm so downtrodden. I work so hard. All I can do is work and sleep. I'm so glad to have you to take care of me. Don't ask me for anything else.

We're trying to move to being equal partners. Where we ask each other for help, and help each other, but are still fully able to take care of ourselves.

What did you take from what she was asking?


 Quote:
I suppose I should tell him that. But he's so wound up in work any more, he rarely stops thinking about it, and he even more rarely interrupts it for anything else. So I take on more and more of our duties. I even take the trash out when he forgets. And that and mowing were the only chores he ever accepted.


Okay, cat, how would you feel about telling him how you feel? When I was on vacation with my friends, and we were driving to a theme park in 3 cars, because there were 14 of us. My one friend asked me to borrow my Theme Park ticket, because my ticket came with free parking, and hers didn't. I said, "Here, take DD7's pass, and she can ride with you." H said,"No, it doesn't work like that, they're going to ask why DD7 is there without her parents." I disagreed, but said "Whatever" and gave her my pass. H went through in the first car, with his pass, with the free parking, so he got in free. My friend went through in the second car after him, with my pass, the same last name, but she doesn't look like him. The lady asked her for ID, and my friend said it was my pass, that I am behind in a third car. The lady took my ticket, and my friend's husband starts hollering at her, you can't take that, give it back. The lady said, I'll give it to the owner, not to you.

My friend called me, and I jumped out of the third car, with my ID, went over, and got my ticket. The lady chastised me, that the free parking is nontransferrable, that I need to be in the car to get the free parking. That she could have confiscated my ticket and NOT given it back, because they are nontransferrable, and I would have needed to pay for my ticket all over again. I went back to the third car, with our other friends, embarassed and mad at myself for handing over my pass when I didn't want to.

My friend in that car told me, "Ears, I see you don't like this, but don't talk to your H now. He's not going to hear you." Well, of course when I saw my H I told him the whole thing, and how mad I was at myself that I handed my ticket over when I didn't want to. He said, "sorry honey, that's not your fault, it was mine for telling you that." I felt so much better just telling him about it, not carrying that around anymore. I knew that I was going to make amends to myself by not going against my own wishes anymore. But no, it wasn't his fault. It was my choice to not listen to myself, and now it's my choice that I can. Mine to own, my power to fix. And I was glad that I could share that with him, whether he was "going to hear it" or not.


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 Originally Posted By: catperson
LOL, is that what she said? I didn't get that at all...

But sure, I'd like to be relied on less. Here I am trying to schedule another vacation cos H won't do it; I miss when he would take care of things like that. I suppose I should tell him that. But he's so wound up in work any more, he rarely stops thinking about it, and he even more rarely interrupts it for anything else. So I take on more and more of our duties. I even take the trash out when he forgets. And that and mowing were the only chores he ever accepted.

Things seem to be turning around at his work, so I'm hoping that if it works out, he'll relax and I may get the old husband back. Plus, I'm working on me, so we'll meet somewhere in the middle I suppose.


I'm now very confused about what I was saying, myself! (lol)

I was just saying I don't think you need to apologize for doing something that's actually healthy, especially when your husband isn't upset about it!!!

I think it's just uncomfortable to try new things.

And ears, I don't know why you felt I was addressing my comments to you (did I hit "reply" off your post or something?). I feel bad that you so often hear my tone as an indictement against you...


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Telly, no, I didn't hear an indictment at all. Just a friendly reminder, that there's a lot of progress here, and that's the part to focus on, progress, not perfection.


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Just had to vent. I bought H two hockey tickets for Christmas. The game is either tonight (was tonight) or is next Friday. Can't remember. Any rate, he took them from me, I turned to do something else, and a month later, he doesn't even remember getting them from me, let alone where he put them. So I left the living room to go look for them a fourth time in the bedroom, as that's where I handed them to him. He finally got off the couch to go help me go through some of his piles of paper, but he got sidetracked looking at some catalogs.

So I don't know if I'm more upset that as usual we're [censored] because he has piles and piles of paper in every nook and cranny and we're stuck digging through them as usual, or because he cared so little about something I gave him that he can't even remember accepting the gift.

He loves hockey; they were expensive seats; he should have been thrilled. I got him a laundry list of gifts that he needed or wanted for Christmas, well over $1000. He gave me an electric toothbrush and some mascara. Maybe that's what it's really all about.

Maybe I'm finally tired of being a Giver.

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Maybe it takes what it takes, Cat.

If you don't want to look all over in the piles for the tickets, don't. Do you think you may be protecting him from the natural consequences of his actions? Did he ask you to help?

Cat, I did that once. H got me a gift certificate for a facial. I was so happy to get it. I think I would love that. But I didn't make time to use it, and then I lost it, and then I found it after it expired. I called, and they said they'd still honor it even though it expired. Then I lost it again \:\(

Separate and equal, Cat. Maybe next time, take $500 and get yourself what you need or want, too? No use both of you neglecting you!

Would you be willing to tell him that you were spending $1000 to make this a great holiday for him, and ask him to make it special for you, too?

I don't know. What was the impact of this? What are you supposed to learn form this?

If it was me, I think the impact to me would be a hit to my self-esteem, a withdrawal in my LB$ account, and lost time and money. I think what I was supposed to learn would be acceptance, that he may not value things the same way I do.

What is it for you?


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I'm really not capable of asking for what I need. From anyone. Never have been.

What I've learned? That I shouldn't take it personally, that it's his issue, not mine. That I should get over the irritation that he just threw away $50 that I thought would be special to him.

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Wow, cat, I didn't know that, that you don't ask for what you need from anyone. Not even your mother, your daughter, your brother?

Maybe something else would come more natural than asking? Maybe start small like with your daughter instead? Do you feel more comfortable with her? What about letting her know what you would like, without asking for it? Like, "I have so much to get done this evening. It would be such a help if the laundry was already put away when I am done with the dishes, so I can sit and watch TV with you and your dad. I miss spending time with you guys, but I have a hard time asking for for what I need. But I think I need help with everything that needs to be done. It's too much for me, and I don't get to bed until 11 every night. Are there any chores taht you don't mind helping with?"

What is the block there? Was there someone who would use that, knowing what you wanted, to make sure you never felt secure you would get it, or even if you got it, that it could be taken away from you again?

 Quote:
What I've learned? That I shouldn't take it personally, that it's his issue, not mine. That I should get over the irritation that he just threw away $50 that I thought would be special to him.


Cat, when I think I've figured out what I was to learn, I ask myself, do I feel lighter, seeing this? That's when I know I got it. Do you feel lighter?

Would you be comfortable telling your H that you were irritated? That doesn't make you bad or wrong or threatening, that you got irritated. I remember what your IC said, that there were 100s of women doing what you are doing. Maybe 100s of women are feeling irritated, feel the feeling, and let it go. Dr. H talks about AHs, how they make withdrawals. Do you think your H would benefit from knowing this, that it irritated you?


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Part of that shame thing, I guess. Not worth asking for anything. That's a hard thing to get over.

I've told D18 dozens of times, logically, that I have to have help. I've even told her some times when I'm on the verge of giving up that I need her to step up, I can't take it any more. She says she will, but it never lasts more than a day. She'll do work when I specifically tell her what I need, but she can't get up the next day and the next and think 'what can I do to help my mom?' Oh well...aside from that she's amazing.

No, I don't feel lighter. I feel used and forgotten and taken for granted. And sad that I'm in this position.

I know that if I stood up for myself more, I'd get more. Gotta work on that.

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Oh, man, cat, I'm sorry.

It makes sense what you said, so I don't know why, but I'm not thinking that it's so much about standing up for yourself. Dr. H doesn't use those words. Maybe it's more like giving him the information that he needs to make informed decisions?

You want to be in love with him, but these things have the opposite effect. So you're letting him know what you DO like, so he can work with you. And if he's too tired or overwhelmed to pull his weight, well, you said what you had to say. Actions have consequences. Life goes on. It's going to be joyous regardless of whether he decides to figure out and act on what makes you happy too in time or not in time or not at all.

Cat, what about getting yourself a pedicure with the massage that helps your foot pain? Would something like that be a good way to start treating yourself kinder and gentler? I dunno, what kinds of things would be meaningful to you?


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 Originally Posted By: catperson
Just had to vent. I bought H two hockey tickets for Christmas. The game is either tonight (was tonight) or is next Friday. Can't remember. Any rate, he took them from me, I turned to do something else, and a month later, he doesn't even remember getting them from me, let alone where he put them.


See this is his Demand Resistance showing...if you give him tickets, that means he HAS to go to the Hockey game (even if he wants to)...and of course he doesn't want to have to do anything.

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{{{{{ cat }}}}}


me - 47 tired
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(Why is DS7b now a blockhead???)
(Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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I can understand your problem.

Lisa11

Alcoholism Information

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I can understand your problem.

Lisa11

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 Originally Posted By: ears_open
Oh, man, cat, I'm sorry.

It makes sense what you said, so I don't know why, but I'm not thinking that it's so much about standing up for yourself. Dr. H doesn't use those words. Maybe it's more like giving him the information that he needs to make informed decisions?

You want to be in love with him, but these things have the opposite effect. So you're letting him know what you DO like, so he can work with you. And if he's too tired or overwhelmed to pull his weight, well, you said what you had to say. Actions have consequences. Life goes on. It's going to be joyous regardless of whether he decides to figure out and act on what makes you happy too in time or not in time or not at all.

Cat, what about getting yourself a pedicure with the massage that helps your foot pain? Would something like that be a good way to start treating yourself kinder and gentler? I dunno, what kinds of things would be meaningful to you?
As usual, you're right. It isn't about what he does or doesn't, it's about me not saying anything.

After he stopped looking and was looking at the catalog, I left the room and went to the living room and got on here. He came in a few minutes later and asked what I was doing. I lied and said reading my emails (I didn't want him to read me writing about him). So he sat down. Knowing he would fall asleep and stop looking, I said "I'm getting up. Don't sit down; you'll fall asleepl" He said 'no, I won't.' So I got up anyway, and he said 'I'm tired of looking; finish your emails.' So I sat down, and within 3 minutes, he was asleep. I have told him several times that it upsets me that he always falls asleep; doesn't change him doing it, though.

I'm going to work on getting the house cleaned out, and I've been wanting to redesign my flowerbeds in the front yard. Those are the things that make me feel good. I might ask him to help dig up plants and see what happens. The last time I did that, he dug up one plant and disappeared into his forest. But I'm gonna ask anyway.

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 Originally Posted By: wannabophim
 Originally Posted By: catperson
Just had to vent. I bought H two hockey tickets for Christmas. The game is either tonight (was tonight) or is next Friday. Can't remember. Any rate, he took them from me, I turned to do something else, and a month later, he doesn't even remember getting them from me, let alone where he put them.


See this is his Demand Resistance showing...if you give him tickets, that means he HAS to go to the Hockey game (even if he wants to)...and of course he doesn't want to have to do anything.
You're right. I don't know why I'm surprised.

I was thinking last night of taking down the bathroom door myself and trying to figure out how to use his saw, so I could shave the bottom quarter inch off. I can't put a rug in there because the door is too low to the ground and gets stuck on the rug. The rug has been sitting behind the toilet for 5 years.

Is it a LB for me to do something like that? I know if I do it, he will take over, but that's me making him do something for me because I know he will, with the OCPD.

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Thanks, Lisa!

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Well, I did it. I asked for help. Arms full of laundry while H and D18 are on their laptops watching tv, I stopped in front of them and said "I would like it if you guys would help with the house today. I don't care what, just help with something."

D18 said 'ok, mommy' but hasn't moved. H looked up at me with that 'roll your eyes' sarcastic look he has and went back to his laptop.

ETA: D18 made lunch, and H asked me if I woke up on the wrong side of the bed. I said no, I'm just tired of looking at this house and all the mess.

A few minutes later, I said 'Why do you think I woke up on the wrong side of the bed? Because I asked for help?' He said no, you're just being...whatever.

But when he sat back down on the couch, he did fold the pile of towels I had put there just before. Didn't put them away, but at least he did that much.

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Cat, what about asking your H how he feels about you doing the saw first. It reminds me of what LA says, that 98% of problems are not to be resolved, but understood.

There may be things that you two won't be able to POJA easily today, but this seems like one that you can, what do you think? How can you tell?

Cat, I'm so glad to see you back here, working on this. You do so much fro others, and I'm glad to see you taking the effort to make your life better, too. Good for you for asking for what you want! Have you read this lately?

Here's the intro, in the Basic Concepts> ENs: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3340_dom.html

And here's the Q&As that speak to your situation:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5045_qa.html

 Quote:
I would like to propose to you a solution to your conflict based on the Policy of Joint Agreement. As it does with all marital conflicts, the Policy will not only resolve it, it will help you increase your love for each other.

This solution will require you to do something that you may rarely do: get organized. It means you must think through your problem carefully and systematically. You will need to write down your objectives and create solutions that take each other's feelings into account. While you may find all of this awkward and terribly "not you," there is no other way. Besides, when you're done, you may find it to be more comfortable than you anticipated.


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
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