Jayne how do you know that? Lets say this is not the daughters father but employer saying no to better hours, boyfriend pushing for sex, or girlfriends teasing her how in the world will her daughter be able to stand up for herself if Cat keeps fighting her battles? Cat daughter as I see it is eighteen and has no fear of telling her father what she wants, just not winning arguing as I read. Cat said he would back down if pushed hard enough. He does not sound like such a monster to me.

Fine, if you think you have a better handle on things (have you read her entire thread) than her IC... I'm bowing out cus I don't see how this is helpful to cat.

Cat, you know I love you and wish the best for you. I'm not leaving, just ending my part in this talking-over-you.

Ok, here's version 2. Read and reply:

H,
I've been thinking a lot about D18 and C. Let me know how you feel about this. I completely understand how you think you have to follow your gut instincts, but I realize we need to rethink letting her ride in his car. She's 18. We’ve already realized we’re too protective for her age. There are valid concerns, but there are also valid reasons to ease up.

Legally, she could leave any time she wants. I’m not saying she’s going to, but typical seniors are riding everywhere with everyone, going to malls, parties, movies and the beach. The more we try to control this, the more outcast she will be. She already has a reputation for having overbearing parents. If she’s not allowed to do the basic things teenagers do, she may just start to go behind our backs, like Steve and Catherine experienced.

Also, controlling her sends a message that we aren't confident in her judgment. She might never learn to trust her own judgment because WE had no faith in it. She already shows signs of being unsure of herself; how is she going to handle everything by herself on her own next year? We need to trust her. What other girl would tell guys she won’t have sex with them? We need to reward that integrity by letting her prove herself on her own, like every other senior.

I understand why you’re worried. You’re afraid she won’t stand up for herself. That’s what happened last year with Brandon, but the thing is, she DID recognize the problem and came to me for help, and got away from him. That proves that she knows how to recognize a bad situation and protect herself from it.

And I know you don’t like C, but I disagree. You may know boys, but I know people. I see someone who is more mature and far more intelligent than most boys, has no intention of giving up his long-term goals for some stupid fun in high school. Because of his dad being gone, and being the oldest child, he’s got a lot more sense of responsibility than most kids – just like you were. So racing with D18 in the car is just not likely to happen. And the car has just as many safety features as most cars out there, so she’s going to be as safe as we can possibly wish.

She's ridden with C before, and she says that he’s completely respectful and a good driver. She says he has never driven over the speed limit, never run a stop sign or stop light, won't even use his phone when he's driving. He's been driving for 2 years now, has never had a speeding ticket, never had a wreck. And the few times he's been drinking at a party, he spends the night. And he has made it clear that he will never put D18 in jeopardy that way. He likes her too much.

His parents pretty much refused to let him drive their cars. In fact, his mother was actually upset with me when I talked to her, when he has a perfectly good car and he’s such a good driver (her words). So if we don’t allow D18 to ride in his car, they’ll barely see each other. When we were seniors, we all were on our own, driving everywhere – and surviving just fine. I don’t want to be the person to ruin her most important high school romance.

Finally, in 8 months, she may be gone and riding in cars anyway, away from us. I'd much rather watch her deal with this now, where I can offer advice if needed, than to depend on her to know how to handle any issues on her own without us.

So I'm not enthusiastic about the current agreement, for all of the above reasons. So what about this? I will sit D18 and C down and tell him that we are going to do a trial period for a few weeks – until Homecoming - for her to ride in his car during daylight hours. She will call in every hour. If things go ok, I’m going to tell him she can start riding in his car, but that you and I will be making sure he doesn't forget all the promises he's made to keep her safe. I don’t see how we can make it any safer than that.

I hope you can understand why we need to do this. I'm not trying to diminish your fears, but I'm trying to find a solution that won't brand D18 as an outcast. I want her senior year to be the best memories she has, and I know you do, too. So I’m asking you to understand why it’s necessary to allow her to be like the other kids and ride in her boyfriend’s car.

Love,
CP

I really wish someone else would chime in, cus I can see both sides of something...

What I see now is, you are being more forceful, stating this is what you are going to do, not putting it up for negotiation. It's my humble opinion, could be wrong, that this is what your IC wanted. But I can see ears' concern that this doesn't give your H a voice. I know that's against a lot of things like POJA, but if this is to be your hill to die on, then you don't POJA that, right? (I'm asking, not telling.)

For me, this would be something that I personally wouldn't POJA. But I'm not saying that makes it right. I might soften it a bit, not sure... I'll give a shot at a word-for-word edit, but please consider the source.

H,
I've been thinking a lot about D18 and C. Let me know how you feel about this. I completely understand how you think you have [color:#CC0000]wanting to follow your gut instincts, but I realize we need to rethink letting her ride in his car. She's 18. We’ve already realized we’re too protective for her age. There are valid concerns, but there are also valid reasons to ease up.

Legally, she could leave any time she wants. I’m not saying she’s going to, but typical seniors are riding everywhere with everyone, going to malls, parties, movies and the beach. The more we try to control this, the more outcast she will be. She already has a reputation for having overbearing parents. If she’s not allowed to do the basic things teenagers do, she may just start to go behind our backs, like Steve and Catherine experienced.

Also, controlling her sends a message that we aren't confident in her judgment. She might never learn to trust her own judgment because WE had no faith in it. She already shows signs of being unsure of herself; how is she going to handle everything by herself on her own next year? We need to trust her. What other girl would tell guys she won’t have sex with them? We need to reward that integrity by letting her prove herself on her own, like every other senior.

I understand why you’re worried. You’re afraid she won’t stand up for herself. This is a DJ, telling him what he thinks; unless he's stated this himself, maybe re-word. Or possibly say, I understand the concern that she won't stand up for herself. That’s what happened last year with Brandon, but the thing is, she DID recognize the problem and came to me for help, and got away from him. That proves that she knows how to recognize a bad situation and protect herself from it.

And I know you don’t like C, but I disagree. You may know boys, but I know people. You often trust my judgement in people. I see someone who is more mature and far more intelligent than most boys, has no intention of giving up his long-term goals for some stupid fun in high school. Because of his dad being gone, and being the oldest child, he’s got a lot more sense of responsibility than most kids – just like you were. So racing with D18 in the car is just not likely to happen. And the car has just as many safety features as most cars out there, so she’s going to be as safe as we can possibly wish.

She's ridden with C before, and she says that he’s completely respectful and a good driver. She says he has never driven over the speed limit, never run a stop sign or stop light, won't even use his phone when he's driving. He's been driving for 2 years now, has never had a speeding ticket, never had a wreck. And the few times he's been drinking at a party, he spends the night. And he has made it clear that he will never put D18 in jeopardy that way. He likes her too much.

His parents pretty much refused to let him drive their cars. In fact, his mother was actually upset with me when I talked to her, when he has a perfectly good car and he’s such a good driver (her words). So if we don’t allow D18 to ride in his car, they’ll barely see each other. When we were seniors, we all were on our own, driving everywhere – and surviving just fine. I don’t want to be the person to ruin her most important high school romance.

Finally, in 8 months, she may be gone and riding in cars anyway, away from us. I'd much rather watch her deal with this now, where I can offer advice if needed, than to depend on her to know how to handle any issues on her own without us.

So I'm not enthusiastic about the current agreement, for all of the above reasons. So what [u]do you think about this idea (if you want to soften it) ?[/u] (I missed this sentence before, and this is the sentence that lets him have a voice. I think this sentence needs more prominence. What about deleting the first sentence, so this sentence shows up better, and rephrasing it as above. I will sit D18 and C down and tell him that we are going to do a trial period for a few weeks – until Homecoming - for her to ride in his car during daylight hours. She will call in every hour. If things go ok, I’m going to tell him she can start riding in his car, but that you and I will be making sure he doesn't forget all the promises he's made to keep her safe. I don’t see how we can make it any safer than that.

I hope you can understand why we need to do this. I'm not trying to diminish your fears, but I'm trying to find a solution that won't brand D18 as an outcast. I want her senior year to be the best memories she has, and I know you do, too. So I’m asking you to understand why it’s necessary to allow her to be like the other kids and ride in her boyfriend’s car. If you wanted to give him more of a voice, you could say, Let me know your thoughts on this. or something.

Love,
CP[/color]

Awesome! Thank you very much, all good ideas. I will hold off for awhile and see if anyone else replies with anything else.

I was thinking about what tired said, and D18 was talking this morning to her friend about her bf and dad, and said that IC had told her to keep reminding him, every time he tried to tell her what she could and couldn't do, "Dad, I'm an 18 year old young woman now, I'm not a little girl any more. I know you worry about me, but I can take care of myself and make good decisions. That's what I'm going to do."

So it goes along with what tired said, and also with what I said. I just didn't elaborate that much here about what IC had said about that.

I'm pretty optimistic. He, of course, is miserable over in China, everything is going wrong, etc., like it always does. When that happens, he comes home in a worse mood. So I might as well get it all done and over with at once.

Ok, so this is what I'm sending. Anyone out there who wants to send me a final critique? Something came up today that I think helped my position. He was asked to bring D18 up to the mall to meet up with his mom so they could buy him some decent clothes for Homecoming. I told her to go. But I incorporated it into the letter:

H,
I've been thinking a lot about D18 and C. And something happened today that made me realize we had to make a change with how we were dealing with them. Let me know how you feel about this.

First, I completely understand wanting to follow your gut instincts, but we’ve already realized we’re too protective and that she has become a bit of an outcast and has a reputation for having overbearing parents. And the last two visits D18 and I had with Peggy were all about her feelings about you, and how desperate she’s been feeling about being so different from everyone – in tears.

Bottom line, she's 18, not a little girl any more. Typical seniors go to malls, parties, movies and the beach, in each others’ cars, without having to ask permission for each and every occasion. They tell their parents where they’re going, but they no longer ask permission each time. Legally, she could leave any time she wants; and the more we try to control her, the more outcast she will be. If she’s not allowed to do the basic things teenagers do, we may find ourselves in Steve and Catherine’s position, just out of her desperation to be normal. When we were seniors, we all were on our own, driving everywhere – and surviving just fine. And I don’t want to be the person to ruin her most important high school romance.

Controlling her sends a message that we don’t trust her judgment. She might never learn to trust her own judgment because WE had no faith in it. She already shows signs of being unsure of herself; how is she going to handle everything on her own next year? We need to trust her. We need to reward her amazing integrity by letting her prove herself on her own, like every other senior.

I understand the concern you probably have that she won’t stand up for herself if she feels unsafe. But last year, with Brandon, she DID recognize the problem and came to me for help, and got away from him. So she knows how to recognize a bad situation and protect herself from it. She won’t let it happen again.

And I know you don’t like C, but I disagree. You usually trust my judgment in people, and I see someone who is more mature and far more intelligent than most boys, wants to take things very slow with D18 because he plans to go to go to college, and has no intention of giving up his long-term goals for some stupid fun in high school. Because of his dad being gone, and being the oldest child, he’s got a lot more sense of responsibility than most kids – just like you were. So racing with D18 in the car is just not likely to happen. And the car has just as many safety features as most cars out there, so she’s going to be as safe as we can possibly wish.

She's ridden with C before, and she says that he’s completely respectful and a good driver. She says he has never driven over the speed limit, never run a stop sign or stop light, won't even use his phone when he's driving. He's been driving for 2 years now, has never had a speeding ticket, never had a wreck. And the few times he's been drinking at a party, he spends the night. And he has made it clear that he will never put D18 in jeopardy that way. He likes her too much.

His parents pretty much refused to let him drive their cars. In fact, his mother was actually upset with me when I talked to her, when he has a perfectly good car and he’s such a good driver (her words). So if we don’t allow D18 to ride in his car, they’ll barely see each other.

In 8 months, she may be gone and riding in cars anyway, away from us. I'd much rather watch her deal with this now, where I can offer advice if needed, than to depend on her to know how to handle any issues on her own without us.

What happened was that C came over to see D18, and I overheard his mom call him. He told D18 that his mom asked him to bring D18 up to the mall so his mom and D18 could help him pick out some clothes for Homecoming. But D18 said, near tears, that she couldn’t go with him, because she couldn’t ride in his car.

She didn’t know I was listening. She was so embarrassed, humiliated that she had to tell him that, and I just couldn’t stand it any more. So this is what I did. I sat D18 and C down and told him that we are going to do a trial period for a few weeks – until Homecoming - for her to ride in his car during daylight hours. She will call in every hour. If things go ok, I’m going to tell him she can start riding in his car, but that you and I will be making sure he doesn't forget all the promises he's made to keep her safe. I don’t see how we can make it any safer than that.

I hope you can understand why we need to do this. I'm not trying to diminish your fears, but I'm trying to find a solution that won't brand D18 as an outcast. I want her senior year to be the best memories she has, and I know you do, too. So I’m asking you to understand why it’s necessary to allow her to be like the other kids and ride in her boyfriend’s car.

Love,
CP

Ok, haven't heard from anyone else, and I'm kinda time constrained, so I'm going to go ahead and send the email. Wish me luck.

I LOVE IT!

I love how the opportunity just fell into your lap. I think it makes it a lot less awkward now, the way you bring it up. I like the new things you added/changed too, especially this:


I had thought of this, that there might be some similarity, and forgot to ask.

And you mentioning how upset DD18 was, he's usually moved by her tears, right? Hopefully he will see things in a new light.

I'm happy you stepped in and let DD18 ride with her BF.

Hi Cat, the letter sounds fine to me (still a bit long, but ok if he's used to that). I like that you've made a decision and have given good, logical reasons for it.

Regarding the driving home from church story, something I think you need to stop doing is apologizing in order to break the stalemate (when he's giving you the cold shoulder). In your example where you said you were in the middle of a chore and would come as soon as POSSIBLE, he got irritated that you didn't drop everything and come immediately.

You are training him to continue this behaviour by being so reactive to it. Perhaps you can "fake it to make it", when dealing with stuff like this. So, don't apologize, and ignore his pouting. If you want to address his pouting you might say "I see that you are angry over me not coming to pick you up sooner. I came as soon as I could. I'm going to do x, see ya."

In other words, don't stick around for the cold shoulder, and ignore it when you do see it. I realize this is difficult, and in your shoes I'd probably be much more forceful and tell him where to stuff his attitude.

Thanks. I sent it. If I come back tomorrow in tears, be gentle, ok? This is my first big step.

*fluffy soft hugs* for cat, and prayers that MrCat's heart be softened...

Cat!!! This is what was missing before, when I couldn't put a finger on it. Your O&H! I like the letter so much better now! It still has some "asking you to understand why it’s necessary" as if one person can own the Truth, but it is a huge step in the right direction.

I was gone this weekend, and we had wireless internet at the hotel, but it was so slow that I was not able to get a response to you. So cool to see how you're flying!

Thanks for reminding me about that pattern

When you
I feel
So this is what I would like

LostHusband had one that was more in line with what you have here. I don't remember exactly, here is the paraphrase. Thanks for sharing this experience cat.

When you
I feel
I have a hope of
So this is what I would like

(((Cat)))

Happy, thanks. I know that's what I need to do, but in a controlling situation, the reason we get there in the first place is because we're afraid of the reactions, and we build our whole lives around avoiding doing anything to provoke those reactions. As someone who was taught to do that my whole life, whose self-worth has always been contingent upon someone else's opinion, just leaving him there walking, or even leaving the house after I dropped him off (though I did think about it) would have provoked a reaction 5 times bigger than that one.

But you're right; I'm trying to detach.

Thanks, ears. That kind of talk is still weird to me, but I'm working on it.

Did you guys go on a vacation?

Cat, we did, we went to Disney. It was fun. Probably a bad idea to try something risky like that. You see families melt down on trips like that every day. But I feel good about it, I kept to my drive-by O&H, even when I was triggered and angry. Not expecting a response. When I was mad, I remembered about keeping a friendly silence, instead of an angry, glaring one. It was easy to detach and change focus in a place like Disney, though, where everything is so relaxed and enjoyable. Even the heat was less severe there than down here 3 hours south. We used to talk about moving to Celebration, the neighborhood that they built there.

I've been to Celebration twice! Once 9 years ago when we went to Disney, cos I had read about it and was wanting to move to a place like that, that had the old hometown atmosphere where you could walk everywhere. It was cute.

And we went this August, and I was so disappointed. I don't know what I was expecting, but it has turned into just any other town, where you have to drive to get anywhere. And the rules they had about houses having to follow strict restrictions...out the window. So sad.

You know what, though? If D12 were really interested in getting into acting, that would probably be the second-best place to live, what with Disney and Universal working there.

That's what we thought. She met some older kids in the acting camp in LA who had performed in Disneyland, and they said it was an amazing experience.

A lot of people have gotten their start there.

Cat, have you talked with the IC about the numbness? I really appreciate how you help me look at ideas that make me happy to think about. I am wondering if this goal setting that you've been doing, with tackling the crippling fears, like about the old taxes and the house and speaking up, and doing things like planning vacations, do you feel a little less numb than you used to?

Not really. In all honesty, I'm a little ashamed of it, and I don't trust IC completely yet.

But I do feel better these days, a little more in control.

And I'm able to see myself leaving if I have to, so that's new.

Haven't heard from H yet. That makes me nervous. It's 10:30pm there now, so maybe he's still out eating or something, but any time...

Why do I let someone else's thoughts control me so? I hate it.