{{{{{{ catperson }}}}}}

I'm so sorry!!! It's hard to think of all the possible situations to plan ahead, and have all the pre-determined boundaries. I agree that you aren't responsible for his actions and that it sounds like you did all the right things for your part. It is difficult though, and you can't always just walk away. I think trying to not go on any more shopping trips is a good boundary, if that's possible.

Even if that isn't possible, you have options... let us help you brainstorm. Please don't do anything rash, ok? You always have options...


Yes. Creditors will often work with you, especially if the alternative might be you file for bankruptcy and the get even less. You can ask them to freeze your credit card and to work out a settlement plan for the balance. You can even work out a plan where you pay some reduced amount, but then you cannot open a new card with that company and it will affect your credit rating, but it still could be a god idea if that's the only way to get out of the financial hole.

Here is one of Dave Ramsey's suggestions for dealing with credit card debt, if you are unable to make all the minimum payments. He calls it the pro-rata plan.

"If you cannot pay your creditors what they request you should treat them all fairly and the same. You should pay even the ones who are not jerks and pay everyone as much as you can. Many creditors will accept a written plan and cut special deals with you as long as you are communicating, maybe even over communicating, and sending them something. We have had clients use this even when sending only $2 and have survived for literally years. Pro Rata means their share. What percent of total debt they are. That will determine how much we send them. And we send the check with a budget and this sheet attached each month even if the creditor says they will not accept it.

. Total Total Disposable New
Item Payoff / Debt =Percent X Income = Payments
_______ ________ /______ =._____ X______ =_________
_______ ________ /______ =._____ X______ =_________
_______ ________ /______ =._____ X______ =_________
..."

In case the column formatting isn't clear, the first column would be the credit card company or car or other item of debt; the second column i the total amount needed to pay off that debt; the third column is the total amount of ll your debt combined; the 4th column is column 2 divided by col. 3. Col. 5 is the amount of money you have left over after paying for necessities (food, shelter, etc) that you can apply toward debt each pay period; col. 6 is then how much you should send to each company.

We were on the road the past two days, I didn't have much internet access, so I didn't read what you've been going through. i hope things are returning to calm for you, now that New Year's is over. *hug*

Cat, it is best done via writing - you don't want to ever get stuck on the phone trying to get something done. You also don't want to send it to the same address that the payment goes to. Each creditor should have a customer service address usually listed in the verbage on the back of the credit card statement.

Getting the interest and penalties eliminated will give you a chance to actually start getting them paid off. A single letter printed out several times with only the pertinent info changed makes it easier. If you want help with the verbiage, let me know.

cat - I've been avoiding this thread, primarily because it is painful for me to read. Your situation mirrors that of my sister's, who has been married to the same man for 32 years. He has gotten better over the years, but he has basically been a tyrant. My sister has had a difficult life. She looks 10 years older than she really is.

She does all the work at home - even yard, garden, and fixing things like leaky pipes and broken lawnmowers. She does stay home, but because of that, she has to 'make up for it.' They have both stepped out on their vows and come back again. I just don't know what to say to you except I feel for you. I hope that you are eventually able to get out from under things and can build a new life for yourself if that's what you want to do.

Cat, I get nervous talking about this stuff here at MB, because at heart MB is a plan for healthy people who get off track, but whose intent is to connect with and prtoect their partner. It doesn't include the concept of predetermined boundaray enforcements because there is already POJA, don't gain at your spouse's expense. So once your spouse hears your H&O that yelling isn't cool by you, they know to knock it off. All you have to say is, "Ouch," and they fill in the rest, that they didn't want to hurt you. They apologize, have genuine remorse at making you feel bad, and then make amends by not doing it again. If you say, "ouch, that hurts," and their motivation was to hurt you, you can see how the same behavior is not going to get the result you want right away.

The idea is that over time, the person's love bank would fill, and then they would no longer wish to hurt you, and then you'll be practiced with the right tool. But others can tell you it doesn't always work this way if the person if more powerfully motivated by their ability to intimidate you than their ability to share happiness together.

"I've thought about predetermining before, but our lives are so unpredictable around him that I've never been able to set any boundaries...."

IMO it's more a process of clarifying your boundaries. "I will not stand by and watch my spouse verbally abuse another person." Or whatever it is for you. They are already there. You already know that you're going to leave next year if you two can't change these patterns. Some aren't so lucky, they wake up and find that they are past their point of no return already. I am grateful that you found this place before you got that far.

"This time, however, I DID tell him to stop griping at her, to NOT go there, and he did stop. He wasn't happy, and he pouted til the first guests came, but it kept him from yelling at D17. So I think that was correct, yes?"
Sounds good to me. There is a lot of detail that was missing. As others pointed out to me, it is more empowering to the kids to have them do their boundary enforcement, their H&O. Because sticking up for your kids can go so wrong. But I'm glad it went well.

Everyone, thanks for your replies. I'm going to use all of it, and I feel very much more empowered today. I realized that our biggest issue this year is that H's new boss said he was coming to our party, and bringing his family (and he did), and since my H is all about admiration, he was nearly frantic at making a good impression. So I'm cutting him a break, so to speak, in not reducing our deposits over it all. He hasn't fixed anything in the house since we moved in, and it's starting to show its age after 4-5 years, and I think he just finally looked at it the way I've been seeing it. Hmmm. Maybe that will help him get motivated to doing something...

Anyway, I wanted to comment on this: Because I think it's actually that D17 DOES stand up to him that things are finally coming to a head the past year or two. Sad to say, it's her strength to stand up to him and face his anger that has empowered me to shake off my stupor and finally try to start setting boundaries. But in the end, I don't want her to have to do what I should have done years ago. She is really pertty healthy about it; I apologize to her sometimes for getting us into situations like that, and she just says don't worry about it, she's not taking it personally. I have good hope for her.

Catperson, the more I read, your husband reminds me more of my ex-fiance than of my husband.

The big difference is if you feel there ia PUNCH waiting for you behind his tantrums. And I fear this is what is happening. You rarely defend yourself. In a relationship where you feel physically safe, you can stand up and defend yourself verbally.

When you are intimidated and fear that the man might cross the line and HIT you or your D17, then you cannot defend yourself.

Is this what is happening? Really search deep in your heart because, having been in both situations (arguments where I fear a man will hit me and arguments where I do not), I was able to see in retrospect that right from the beginning of our relationship, I feared my EX would hit me if I stood up to him. I just wouldn't face that fear because the rest of the package seemed so good.

Though we weren't married, we went to a counselor. After a couple sessions, she requested a personal session with each of us. In my session, she told me that my EX was an ultra-controlling person. She said save up your money and leave this man.

I wanted to continue with the session, but this is all she would say.

Even during our joint sessions, his temper flared so violently that even she looked like she was going to get struck. To have a man do that in public the way you describe is way overboard.

A man doesn't have to actually hit you to threaten you physically. He can control you by making you think he will. And to tell the truth, if you step on his toes, he probably will cross that line one day. My ex-fiance struck me while holding our baby in his other arm. That was the only time he hit me, but I was ALWAYS afraid he would when we fought. Ask yourself, "Am I in constant fear?" when he is angry.

If you were not physically afraid of him, you could have excused yourself to the car while he abused those CSR's. Maybe I am wrong, but that is how I see it. I am so sorry this is happening.

I couldn't imagine being in that kind of relationship for so long. It is like a prison. A prison that looks pretty to the outsider but is a horror to is residents.

I really have never worried about physical violence. My issues are more about him looking down on me, me not getting respect from him. I have such a severe need to be respected and thought well of, and it is the one thing he's consistently used against me, that it is my number one trigger point for me. He is always right. Therefore, everything I do, unless he directly told me to do it, is always wrong. Lots of disapproving looks, little looks of disgust, like, boy are you stupid. And it's messed with my confidence so much that I don't have any faith in myself, even when it comes to stopping him in front of a clerk.

I'm sure it's completely FOO stuff for me, but that just makes it harder to get over, IMO.

Here's a thought I just had, I don't know if it will help or not... but just in the last couple posts I've started being reminded of another poster, I think it's aeri?

It sounds like physical violence isn't the problem, but rather H needs to be right and W must do things his way.

Recently aeri stood up to H and it sounded like it went well, IIRC.

I'm really glad to hear that you feel physically safe.

The one thing that struck me is that you believe you should be able to stop him. That really isn't on you. His behavior is not within your control.

But yours is. By standing there, you will give off two impressions. 1) That you support what your husband is doing or 2) that you are being physically abused at home and are too afraid to move.

May I suggest getting a second set of car keys. If anything like this happens again, please say, "I'll be waiting in the car" and excuse yourself. Just consider it.

If it were my husband, I would be tempted to say something more to reflect my own point of view, like, "I don't think you should yell at them for doing their job," but I understand where you are coming from. It is better to walk away under these circumstances.

Jayne, that's exactly right. As I've said before, I have self-diagnosed him with something I found searching, called the "Right Man Syndrome." Those who 'have it' can never be seen to be wrong, to anyone. His main EN is admiration, based out of his severe insecurities, and he goes to great lengths to make sure people admire and respect him. At home, if you question what he does, he blows up.

I finally went to C last night. Didn't accomplish much, she freaked out a bit when I told her I had been close to suicide a couple of times. But bottom line, she agrees with me that he is depressed - and who wouldn't be with the last decade we've had? But to deal with it requires special tactics, over just a general dysfunctional relationship.

Basically, we'll be working on ways for me to change my view on what's happening to me, so I can get over freezing every time he fights back against me changing and improving - the 'change back' actions described in Dance of Anger. She pointed out that he has no intention of leaving the marriage, but that my key issue growing up and with ex-fiance has been abandonment. We realized that with H, my issue is his disapproval, which he is quick to show, and which can be closely tied to abandonment, even though I know he will never leave. So I have to be able to untangle those emotions and fears that control me before I can move forward. Long road ahead.

vs, thanks, very good observations and ideas. I've spent my whole adult life in the middle between him and everyone else, covering for him and enabling him to get away with bad behavior, as I realized in C last night, so I have to stop doing it, so that HE can learn and improve. I certainly don't want people to think I condone him or am being abused, so pointing that out helps motivate me.

I like the key idea, too. I will definitely do that.

cat - I have to see this just like a situation if he were verbally abusing YOU, where you would leave the room - remove yourself as his audience, to send a message that you personally will not subject yourself to that kind of stress - whether its aimed at you or someone else.

The idea is that he's abusing - and being there with him while he's doing it is giving him attention - and giving him attention during a time when he's acting in an undesirable way, is quite possibly in his eyes, admiration and respect.

I have found with my husband that he will go to great lengths to get attention and admiration - from bragging and pointing out his accomplishments to yelling and swearing. As long as his quests for attention are not harmful to anyone, I do give him what he needs. When he gets out of hand, I leave the room.

It's so very easy to get sucked in - especially when it's how you've been dealing with him throughout the relationship. I've found that my husband doesn't read emotion well. He can if he wanted to, but tears more often irritate him than move him.

Anymore, when "the vipor" that takes over my husband's body comes out, I remove myself and close the conversation simply by turning away and explaining why I'm doing it. I don't really have to leave the room anymore for him to get the picture.

The other day you explained so, so well how children do not innately know how to navigate life. (I'm too lazy to copy and paste what you said, so I'm paraphrasing.) I think the same is true of aggressive people who don't know how to navigate what could be a healthy relationship. They need to be shown by example how a healthy conversation takes place and how an unhealthy conversation needs to end.

I agree, Soolee. I just wish I could find a way to bring up such things without his insecurity and defensiveness kicking in. That's mainly what I'm going to C for, as I told her last night. I want to learn to communicate with him in a safe way that helps us both.

Well, sometimes I think - and I know this sounds terrible and condescending, but sometimes I think that when you have to deal with a difficult person like this - someone who just doesn't know how to deal with other people or doesn't even try to relate with other people is to look at them like you would a child because when you do that you can muster up some compassion and patience.

I have found that when I give a little of myself to my husband, I generally get at least as much or more in return. I actually have to make conscious efforts to tell him about my day, talk about what happened, etc. I am happy as a clam to keep it all to myself. I recognize this now as withholding - not consciously - but missed opportunities to connect.

One way to bring up things is by example. Begin to tell him about your day and relate some good behaviors that you witnessed that made an impression on you. And when you've had a successful conversation with someone and gotten a positive response, relay that conversation with him and conclude with your positive or perceptive opinion of that person, especially if he's likely to run into that person again.

For instance, my husband has little patience for the child of a certain person in our social circle. However, I admire the father in particular for taking a leadership role in a club his child is a member of, and my husband and I agree now that he is probably involved beCAUSE the child is the way he is and needs his father's guidance in that way. Before that conversation, however, my husband was just annoyed. Now he has understanding and empathy because I took the time to relate my perception of the situation.

People who are prone to being judgmental are often one dimensional in how they view others. They need help looking deeper.

I'm glad to see you over on aeri's thread. She is really stepping up and standing up to her H, with great results.

I wonder, if in looking for ways to bring things up to your H without setting off his defensiveness, you've been reinforcing to him that he has a reason to get defensive if you don't walk on eggshells? I may be wrong or remembering wrong, but I picture you trying to say things in ways like "This isn't your fault, it's my fault but I really need you to do XYZ." Not exactly like that, but trying to phase things in ways that shifts the blame away from him. It seems to me that would reinforce his expectations.

If that's true, then maybe look again at how you make "I" statements. Really honest "I" statements don't accept blame for things that are truly his; they don't blame-shift away from you or toward you. "I don't agree with this, so this is how I am going to act." "I need this to be done, and this is what I am going to do." It isn't about him at all, either blaming or excusing.

I don't know, I may be way off base - this isn't what I started out to type, but it came out, and I'll leave it just in case it's useful.

That might work. Just some action statements. I have said, in the past, 'I'm going to paint the dining room' etc., only to have him jump up and start doing the work before I can, because, in his words, I'll do it wrong, so he has to do it. That's ok, I can live with that, but then he'll later bring up how he has to do 'everything' around the house. C said we would work on that next time.

Cat, how are things going with you?

Thanks for asking - I should be asking about you!

But H has been away on business since Sunday, I pick him up at the airport today. I really look forward to his trips, as it gives me a few days away from negativity, so I can regroup a little, you know? I've been thinking a lot lately how I can start setting boundaries respectfully, and it makes me severely nervous to even think about doing it. But I feel like I want to try to just take each statement or action at a time, decide whether it's one worth taking a stand on. Above all, I want to be honest, for once in my marriage, so I think I might start with that.

For instance, he now knows I'm going to the C, which unnerves him. But it kind of slyly lets him know, I think, that changes are coming.

He's not a predatory abuser, just a poor-skills abuser, it's all he knows. So I have to figure out how to couch things I say in terms of it making our time together better.

Anyway, I'm kind of rudderless just now, just knowing I have to make positive steps but having no clue how. Hoping C will help. Anyway, thanks for asking. Hope you're doing ok.

Hi cat,

It's great that you've had a few days to regroup. This would be a good time to implement some changes, if you have some boundaries figured out. Sort of a new beginning.

Do you have time before you pick him up. to prepare yourself mentally for what you will and will not accept, and what your action will be when certain things happen?

Just the 30-minute drive to the airport. Suggestions?